Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

darkPrince010 wrote:Man, hope you guys in the UK are hanging on alright. This looks (iirc) like one of the bigger riots you guys have had this decade (If not before). Have there been any news from credible authorities about use of military troops to supplement the (apparently inadequate) police on the scene?

None at all. Nor talk of it. There has been a few callers (or tweeters, they read them out on the news here) on the 24 hour news channels calling for it though.

You'd rather police take the risk and get shot?

what risk? The guys gun was in his car, and i do not disagree with what they did, im just giving some sort of reason to why its happening, case people are unaware.

Since when was the gun in the car? Your spewing rumours. No one knows what happened yet, so it's best if you step off that false soap box of yours.

darkPrince010 wrote:Man, hope you guys in the UK are hanging on alright. This looks (iirc) like one of the bigger riots you guys have had this decade (If not before).

The UK is bigger than it looks. Most of us are doing fine I was in London today as it happens and didn't see a single flying brick.

Although this is depressing for the people living in the affected areas, don't underestimate the power of the media to make something look bigger than it is. With luck the police will be given permission to go and crack some heads soon and it will get sorted out.

Frazzled wrote:Sorry, whether or not martial law is actually declared, if guys in uniforms with assault rifles are clearing the streets of looters, then its the same thing. Semantics are not relevant when they have guns and can shoot you.

Well I'll be sure to tell the police that, and the members of "militias" that have uniforms.

Its also worth noting that no one has ever cleared an American, or Western, street of looters using an assault rifle. Not even during Hurricane Ike.

Frazzled wrote:
Put troops out. Stop the riots.

Yes, that does work in dictatorships that do not draw soldiers from the general population, but, in Western nation-states, this does not happen.

Frazzled wrote:
Put police out with orders to stop the riots at all costs. Stop the riots.
Get your neighbors together to protect your own nieghborhoods.

If these two coexist, then your neighbors will engage in a fight that they will lose.

Frazzled wrote:
Now I remember why I quit posting here. Carry on.

Because you don't like dealing with reality?

Wikipedia defines Martial Law as: The imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis—usually only temporary—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread. In most cases, military forces are deployed to quiet the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order. Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions.

Sounds a lot like what happened after Katrina (and to a much lesser extent, Ivan) to me...

Speaking of which, I live in the area hit by Ivan's eye wall and after it was over, the neighborhoods next to ours were the subject of unrest...looting...no riots but lots of violence. What did we do? My neighborhood rallied around the cops who lived in it and the neighborhood watch. Somebody put out a sign in front of the entrance that very clearly stated "Looters will be shot." Hell, one day I heard warning shots...and that was the end of that. Bottom line...when the community stopped playing around, the thugs went home and life went on.

TheFirstBorn wrote:Since when was the gun in the car? Your spewing rumours. No one knows what happened yet, so it's best if you step off that false soap box of yours.

The police report come out some time ago, even on the news, it was in a sock in his car. I think its you who needs to step off?

watch sky news.

WARORK93 wrote:Wikipedia defines Martial Law as: The imposition of military rule by military authorities over designated regions on an emergency basis—usually only temporary—when the civilian government or civilian authorities fail to function effectively (e.g., maintain order and security, and provide essential services), when there are extensive riots and protests, or when the disobedience of the law becomes widespread. In most cases, military forces are deployed to quiet the crowds, to secure government buildings and key or sensitive locations, and to maintain order. Generally, military personnel replace civil authorities and perform some or all of their functions.

Sounds a lot like what happened after Katrina (and to a much lesser extent, Ivan) to me...

Then you know nothing about what happened after Katrina. There was still a Governor in LA, who had authority, for example.

Apologies, just confirmed it for myself. Turns out the supposed "report" I read was false and unofficial.

Didn't read the whole thread but the problems have spread to Birmingham, Lewisham, Croydon and Peckham. London is in a bad way and it's spreading fast. And spare a thought for darkinnit, since he's in London and had a panic saying Croydon was on fire.

This is bad... blasted black kids and middle-easterns. No that's not bias, that's watching live footage and spotting the oh so many blacks and middle-easterns lurking about like "ganstas" covering their faces up.

My generation sucks

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Didn't read the whole thread but the problems have spread to Birmingham, Lewisham, Croydon and Peckham. London is in a bad way and it's spreading fast. And spare a thought for darkinnit, since he's in London and had a panic saying Croydon was on fire.

This is bad... blasted black kids and middle-easterns. No that's not bias, that's watching live footage and spotting the oh so many blacks and middle-easterns lurking about like "ganstas" covering their faces up.

My generation sucks

I agree with you there man.

I live in Lewisham and this stuff is happening down the road from me...

Juvieus Kaine wrote:And spare a thought for darkinnit, since he's in London and had a panic saying Croydon was on fire.

Tis...



That's an earlier pick. That whole block is on fire on sky news right now. And most of the street adjacent to it.

shoggoth wrote:I live in Lewisham and this stuff is happening down the road from me...

How bad is it? I mean we can get our own views from the media but from what you can see, how bad is it?

dogma wrote:Then you know nothing about what happened after Katrina. There was still a Governor in LA, who had authority, for example.

Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.

So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.

WARORK93 wrote:
Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.

So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.

Yes, it is a matter of semantics, but semantics are not unimportant. It is a matter of Americans confusing "martial law" with "aggressive law enforcement" they are not the same thing. They cannot be the same thing because, if they were, then all state law would be enforced by the presence of military forces operating at the whim of the state.

Not having local authorities in control of situation X does not indicate "martial law."

Martial Law isn't when the National Guard supplement and support local and state authority, it is when they are the only authority. A "State of Emergency" is a different set of circumstances than "Martial Law"; the mere presence of the National Guard isn't enough.

biccat wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:

MrH wrote:Just bring out the tanks and wipe them all off the face of the planet.

Nope. Bring out the population. Get them marching, right at the rioting scum. Show them a community united, a community uncowed by their antisocial behaviour. Not only would this be a slap in the face to the rioters, but you might also see an overall reduction in gang culture, as they discover that a community united, and just wanting a peaceful existence is one of the most powerful forces on this earth.

Why should "the population" do this? How about, instead, the community appoints a few people to act as their voice and put down riots like this. They could be entrusted to keep the peace, and be given greater authority than the regular population to suppress and detain people who act out.

If those don't work, you could have another group who are given even wider authority to suppress and detain people who are acting against the interests of the population. Maybe give them better weapons and superior training and the authority to go to foreign nations when the interests of the population are threatened as well.

Then, you don't have the organizational issue of getting people interested and marching, all you have to do is command these select groups to take care of the problem.

You could call them "police" and "military", but that's just a suggestion.

The Police always require the backing of the populace. Simple as.

You do realise you've just made an excellent case for civillians NOT having their own guns yes? After all, if the Police and Army are there, it's their job to stamp out crime yes, whilst you sit in your cosy house and tut at the tellly?

It's bad.. I havent read the whole thread either but to those that have said (if any) that it's not as bad as the media is making out, trust me it is :( i'm in London, right next to Croydon (bout 10 minute drive) .. groups hanging around the high street near mine, police everywhere, just finished work as we had to close early due to people round in the Sutton (where i work) area as well, apparently they've started to attack places round there, which is really worrying because it's right next door to my sisters house and she refused to leave :(

Makes me so angry that kids can act like this, what the hell are they thinking??

Matt070 wrote:Makes me so angry that kids can act like this, what the hell are they thinking??

That they are treated as apart from the political process, targeted by law enforcement, and generally being angry?

Ahtman wrote:

Matt070 wrote:Makes me so angry that kids can act like this, what the hell are they thinking??

That they are treated as apart from the political process, targeted by law enforcement, and generally being angry?

Because they give the police reason to target them, personally i dont think they are targeted, only the ones who give the police reason to target them are the ones who are complaining about it. it's just kids having no respect or any idea what harm they are actually doing, going along with the mob because its fun. i know i'm only in my twenties but i cant think of anything that will make me act like this, or the people i know, friends family who are all the same age, maybe it's the way i was bought up, i dont know, these people #9if you can call them that) dont even know why they are doing it, just for a bit of fun and to boast that they were there when it happeed. I can understand them being angry, i'm angry because i've put myself through university twice but it hasn't helped me get anywhere, stuck stacking shelves, so yes be angry but doesnt give an excuse for mindless behaviour. I agree that they should have their voice heard but not like this, after this do they really think they will be taken seriously as having a view? they dont deserve it.

dogma wrote:

WARORK93 wrote:
Sure the Governor was there...and maybe even the mayor of New Orleans...but did the local authorities have control of the situation? No, it was a "State of emergency" which is a nice way of saying that the local government needed some help.

So, no Katrina did not constitute "Martial law"...officially...but like Frazzled said IMO that boils down to semantics. Sure the local government still had control but its edicts were enforced by the national guard and the army, so make your own judgement.

Yes, it is a matter of semantics, but semantics are not unimportant. It is a matter of Americans confusing "martial law" with "aggressive law enforcement" they are not the same thing. They cannot be the same thing because, if they were, then all state law would be enforced by the presence of military forces operating at the whim of the state.

Not having local authorities in control of situation X does not indicate "martial law."

Katrina is a unique case of non-martial law martial law.

The state of Louisiana had no provision for martial law (not sure if they do now), but the state enacted powers under a State of Emergency that provided to police effective denial of typical Miranda rights and other things police typically do when detaining people and stopping looters. That's about as close as they got in Katrina to martial law.

Rioting spread to Clapham and Ealing(sp?). A lot are saying, this is highly organised across twitter and facebook. Typical - social networking creating disorder...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14449675 - Live news feed from the BBC.

Matt070 wrote:Because they give the police reason to target them

Nothing like a self perpetuating cycle.

Matt070 wrote:personally i dont think they are targeted

And as a minority that grew up in these neighborhoods I'm sure your opinion on how they feel has a lot of weight.

Matt070 wrote:it's just kids having no respect or any idea what harm they are actually doing, going along with the mob because its fun.

This kind of thinking only leads to more riots now and in the future. If you never actually understand the problems that lead to these situations you will have little chance of preventing them again in the future.

Matt070 wrote:they should be heard but not like this, after this do they really think they will be taken seriously as having a view?

I imagine they have been talking for some time and no one has listened. During the 80's and 90's, through music, movies, and writing black and latino communities tried to express problems going on in and around the US and no one payed that much, attention then we got the LA Riots. There are always warning signs, it is just that the middle class is usually to disinterested in change or to busy navel gazing to notice it until the situation reaches a boiling point and then they want to blame the people who feel disenfranchised, leading to further alienation. I have no doubt some people are taking advantage of the situation, but to pretend as if it is that simple shows an alarming, though not surprising, lack of insight.

Matt070 wrote:they dont deserve it.

You thinking you get to decide what others should think they deserve is probably part of the problem.

Frazzle, quit the jokes dude. I'm asking nicely. It's great that you can laugh about it but spare a thought for those of us that have friends in the affected area that haven't been in touch today. feth tard.

I hope this is over soon. Unfortunately I think it will take military presence for this one to cool off - the police aren't respected, "all they'll do is arrest ya blud, we've had that 10 tens already", but a trained service man / woman packing SA80's, aimed at your head will make you think twice when all you have is a brick.

I don't want it to get to that stage though, we're not in the dark ages, diplomacy and common decency should win out. Anyway, back to reality...

Apparently there has now been a shooting, non-fatal in Croydon, good time to settle scores I suppose.

There's copy cat rioting spread to Birmingham now (100 miles / 160 km apart). They have no reason to riot - they didn't know the guy that got shot, it wasn't a personal slight against any of them, it's just people taking advantage of a stretched system.

Please don't attach non wargaming images to Dakka. Thanks

Panic by The Smiths seems oddly fitting right now.

Whereas I predict a riot by the Kaiser Chiefs is probably a bit late...

If only we'd listened.

Bit late for that now.

In the words of an Ork (which we can liken these rioters to):
Bring on the Dakka!