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Slinky wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:
there is no basis in the background for BS4 Guardians.

Rogue Trader, page 178, all Eldar = WS4, BS4.

RT as in the old rulebook?

Well by that measure werent the orks at one point very good marksmen? Well not all of them but I remember seeing one with BS4 or 5. I wish some of the orks these days had that

But really BS4 guardians doesnt bother me too much, they dont do that much anyways

Slinky wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:
there is no basis in the background for BS4 Guardians.

Rogue Trader, page 178, all Eldar = WS4, BS4.

Oh snap!

Slinky wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:
there is no basis in the background for BS4 Guardians.

Rogue Trader, page 178, all Eldar = WS4, BS4.

Plus, the fluff states that the most talented human dancer/gymnast could never hope to replicate the most simple of Eldar movements...

...yet, stick a gun in their hands and they're all fingers and thumbs

AlexHolker wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thunderfrog - civilian militia who have never picked a gun up should NTO be BS4. They are BS3 because they are inherently as good as trained guardsmen.

Guardians are Eldar not currently on any Aspect path. That does not mean they've never picked up a gun, either as an ex-Aspect Warrior or simply in their hundreds of years of life.

Yet we know, from background stories including path of the seer, that Guardians are predominantly composed of those who have not been on a path. So, they are NOT trained and are yet as good as trained guardsmen. Its called "compromise", sorry but thats all there is to it. If it was a D100 scale there may be a way to represent BS3.4 (assuming as high as 40% of a craftworld have been on a path of the warrior, which is laughable given the background) but there isnt, so you get BS3. Continued eldar player (should i say other eldar players? I play them and i see the point) crying about this is boring.

And characters used to br BS/WS 7, so since everything has been reduced I can live with the guardians at BS/WS 3. Also that was before the warrior paths were introduced and I think referred to the eldar pirates?
I'm fairly sure guardians when introduced as craftworld guardians in RT were BS/WS 3? Not got stuff to check anywhere near me though.
And yes, orks used to be able to hit things shooting, and also used bolters, melta guns, power weapons, plasma weaponry etc

That was also back when a single character could have 10 Jokaero digital flamers to shoot 10 small flame templates in the shooting phase.

And when Zoats were a playable race.

And in fantasy at that time, Elementals had a stat-line of 10 accross the board. As they lost wounds, all of their stats dropped by one for each wound lost.

Things have changed a lot in 23 years.

Flashman wrote:

Slinky wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:
there is no basis in the background for BS4 Guardians.

Rogue Trader, page 178, all Eldar = WS4, BS4.

Plus, the fluff states that the most talented human dancer/gymnast could never hope to replicate the most simple of Eldar movements...

...yet, stick a gun in their hands and they're all fingers and thumbs

Not to mention that if you stick them in a tank, they artfully miss half of the time, although they do get around to putting proper shooters into fire prisms...

Flashman wrote:
Plus, the fluff states that the most talented human dancer/gymnast could never hope to replicate the most simple of Eldar movements...

...yet, stick a gun in their hands and they're all fingers and thumbs

And Death Cult Assassins make trained Eldar murderers look like clumsy children.

Flashman wrote:

...yet, stick a gun in their hands and they're all fingers and thumbs

Isn't anyone with a hand 'all fingers and thumbs'?!?

Introduce the "Eagle Pilot" aspect warriors that we've seen occasionally the fluff and make Falcons/Vypers/etc BS4. Done.

*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

lol I agree with you actually. People insist on complaining, but IMO eldar are still quite competitive and I love playing them personally. I'm not a win-at-all-costs type of guy though. I love most of the models as it is, though new warlock and farseer models are always welcome. But yes, the worst part will be the bandwagoneers.

Carpet baggers. That's what I call them, and if they dont understand the historical context it's like a double win for me.

Bandwagoners should be seen as a good thing.

Surely you hipsters may get upset that people are playing your army or whatnot, but the more people playing non-SM armies the better. GW may actually see that Xenos armies actually can sell.

Plus, most of the bandwagonning is enabled by GW releasing multiple SM codecies and people taking their blue "Omega Space Marines" and substituting them for Salamanders, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Black Templars, or even Grey Knights.

The more stuff they (the bandwagoners) buy from your army means that GW will put more stuff for said army. It's a win situation.

I really don't understand hipsters.

Well there is a Paradox for you, the more people that buy into an army after it's update, the more stuff they will put into their update

Hipsters has nothing to do with it. It has to do with the fact is that the more people that play your army, the more people that will have to meta against it. Currently things that work against the meta game struggle against Eldar.

Absolutionis wrote:
GW may actually see that Xenos armies actually can sell.

Your optimism is inspiring.



Respek.

I have no problem whatsoever with band-wagoners/carpet baggers.

Really - who cares?

Now, taking away the Wraithlord's "T" value and giving it an "AV" value?

No thanks!

I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

Alpharius wrote:I have no problem whatsoever with band-wagoners/carpet baggers.

Really - who cares?

Now, taking away the Wraithlord's "T" value and giving it an "AV" value?

No thanks!

I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

To be fair Alpharius, I don't think Wraithlords will get an Armour Value. Simply because they'd have to justify why Wraithlord Wraithbone is AV, while Wraithguard Wraithbone has a T value.

Iranna.

Thunderfrog wrote:In my opinion I'm far less worried about models and new units than I am the rules and points adjustments for whatever they decide to go with.

Wriathguard need a 5+ invul and a points reduction if stuck with 12" range.

Wraithlords need a 5+ invul.

Guardians need BS 4.

Avenger Catapults need a longer range.

Banshees should become a core choice.

Eldar need at least 1 tank with the assault vehicle designation.

Grav Tanks all need BS 4.

Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Phoenix Lords, and Autarchs all need rules/options/wargear/price adjustments.

I'm so jealous of the D Eldar codex. They can take so many options and everything but the Mandrakes are solid choices.

I just want to be on par with our dark cousins.

I like the idea of Wraithlords having a high toughness, regenerating wounds, no armour save, a minor invuln save (5+/6+) and Eternal Warrior. This would help make them a little more unique and capable of reaching the enemy.

Guardians should be BS3 (they're hardly veteran troops) but should get 18" catapults to give them more of a chance against enemy assault units with Fleet.

Avenger catapults should be 24", as they're essentially object-holding fire support units.

Banshees should should be elites. I10 troops with power weapons holding objectives sounds so very broken to me.

I liked the idea of the wave serpents being assault vehicles if they tank shock first. It introduces an element of risk and limits the targets that can be hit (you don't want to be doing it to the guys sitting in cover with a powerfist). Perhaps it should be an upgrade that excludes holo-fields or spirit stones.

Fire prisms are already BS4, wave serpents are twin-linked and do not need it. Falcons could maybe have the option of the old 'crystal targeting matrix' upgrade that gives them +1 BS or treats their weapons as TL.

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

You forgot....

#5 Eldar swoop in to save some Orks from a Nid swarm then exchange high fives on their way out to a Necron Rave.

TalonZahn wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

You forgot....

#5 Eldar swoop in to save some Orks from a Nid swarm then exchange high fives on their way out to a Necron Rave.

If anyone could feasibly have a reason, it would probably be Eldar.

Farseer: "If these Orks get wiped by Tyranids then they won't assault a Tau Outpost sometime in the next 50 years. If that outpost is unchallenged then they will expand and attack a unknown craftworld and destroy it!"

Guardian: "Um.. Farseer.. why not move the Craftworld?"

Farseer: "There's no time. That craftworld is on it's way to a Necron rave in the same galaxy. If they don't attend then they just wasted 150 Space Elf dollars on glow sticks."

Alpharius wrote:
I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

Oh hell yes. I'd love to get to shoot with a Dreadnought more than once a game...

I'm looking forward to Eldar for a few reasons. A big one is so that my Eldar playing friend can get some plastic Howling Banshees that don't break everytime he moves them (seriously. Evey game, one will break) or a Wraithguard that doesn't look like he's hugging his gun like a security blanket...

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

lol I agree with you actually. People insist on complaining, but IMO eldar are still quite competitive and I love playing them personally. I'm not a win-at-all-costs type of guy though. I love most of the models as it is, though new warlock and farseer models are always welcome. But yes, the worst part will be the bandwagoneers.

I am glad I am not alone, I was starting to feel in a minority saying the codex is at least still playable!
And at least with bandwagoneers it's eldar vs. eldar which has a lot more variations and interest to a game than Marines vs marines unless your list and your opponents involves 5 DA in a vehicle... I dread to see such a game.

Vermillion wrote:

Lt. Coldfire wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

lol I agree with you actually. People insist on complaining, but IMO eldar are still quite competitive and I love playing them personally. I'm not a win-at-all-costs type of guy though. I love most of the models as it is, though new warlock and farseer models are always welcome. But yes, the worst part will be the bandwagoneers.

I am glad I am not alone, I was starting to feel in a minority saying the codex is at least still playable!
And at least with bandwagoneers it's eldar vs. eldar which has a lot more variations and interest to a game than Marines vs marines unless your list and your opponents involves 5 DA in a vehicle... I dread to see such a game.

Shhh... don't let people know we are still good or I'll stop winning 90% of my games

...Black Guardians used to have either WS 4 or BS 4 (one of each upgrade max) in the Ulthwe variant in 3rd edition depending on if they were Storms/Defenders. Additionally, there was the Ulthwe Strike Force in Codex: Eye of Terror where you had a Webway Portal Craftworld Eldar list that couldn't bring any of the heavy stuff/a fair few of the Aspect Warriors but could bring Black Guardian Vypers/War Walkers in addition to the normal mix of Black Guardians.

Just saying...this was back in 3rd ed and pre-current codex.

Yep and the webway portal idea was one I really enjoyed.
Thing is I regrettably see the designers giving eldar players more special characters so that there are craftworld variants once again with how popular the marine variant style is.
Unless ofcourse they take this away in the 6th edition vanilla marine codex when 6th ed comes out and then we shall know for the following (hopefully) eldar codex.
Not holding my breath either way though

kronk wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

Oh hell yes. I'd love to get to shoot with a Dreadnought more than once a game...

That sums it up nicely!

Only downside to the T on the walkers is snipers, it makes me wince watching them get peppered with shots. And some nurgle banner which did 3 unsavable wounds to one a couple of CSM codicies ago.

Vermillion wrote:Only downside to the T on the walkers is snipers, it makes me wince watching them get peppered with shots. And some nurgle banner which did 3 unsavable wounds to one a couple of CSM codicies ago.

Being a nid player, I can think of several downsides to having a T value. Increasing ammount of poison weapons in the game...especially when there is a fairly popular army (DE) that spams them at long range. Increasing ammount of ID weapons in the game...especially when there is a fairly popular army (GK) that spams them to such an extent that it doesn't matter that your toughness 6. Apocolypse D-weapons (Non-Open Top Vehicles still get a 50% of surviving such a weapon; where as MC which lack a invul save auto die). MC are normally priced significantly higher than mechanized units with similar outputs. AV 11 up is normally immune to small arms fire. AV in 5th edition has more staying power against common missle or laz/plaz spam. AV often have access to cheap wargear that grant auto cover (Disruption fields, Smoke Launchers, Ect) which most MC lack. AV takes only 1/2 strength hits from blast weapons when the center isn't over hull; allows you to group vehicles together without fear of a blast damaging multiple vehicles.

Dread might only shoot more than 1 turn a game, but I would like my Carnie to simply survive 1 turn of the game without an escort.