Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AustonT wrote:Ahh a wish list with ridiculous hopes and dreams, reminds me of a young senator from Illinois.

Thunderfrog wrote:In my opinion I'm far less worried about models and new units than I am the rules and points adjustments for whatever they decide to go with.

Wriathguard need a 5+ invul and a points reduction if stuck with 12" range.

Wraithlords need a 5+ invul.
On top of being T7 how bout no Scott. They need an AV...again or to remain as is
Guardians need BS 4.
only if they are Uthwe
Avenger Catapults need a longer range.
longer than what? Regular catapults? Done
Banshees should become a core choice.
So that you can bring 6 of what is ultimately the best Eldar assault unit and not have to make a choice between that or the eldar tank busters? That sounds like a unit that belongs in elites to me.
Eldar need at least 1 tank with the assault vehicle designation.
Need is such a funny word, it's not enough that all Eldar tanks are fast skimmers with some of the best weapons options in the game (vice 4e pricing), now they 'need' an assault rule.
Grav Tanks all need BS 4.
Yes they need BS4 the way IG tanks need BS4

Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Phoenix Lords, and Autarchs all need rules/options/wargear/price adjustments.
this is often called "a new codex"
I'm so jealous of the D Eldar codex. They can take so many options and everything but the Mandrakes are solid choices.

I just want to be on par with our dark cousins.
now you know what DE players have felt like for years.

1: Wraithlords are T10, not 7. I'd gladly lose 2 points of toughness for an invul OR AV 12. Problem is they aren't really mechanized walkers.. or.. are they? I know their basically mechanized zombies.. it's a hard one that. Either way, taking a MC at 115 points or so that dies in one shooting phase to three shots from laz/plas spam is pretty annoying. Furthermore, Wraithbone armor grants warlocks a 4+ invul. I dont see why a giant shell of wraithbone armor doesn't provide an invul to the big boys of the army.

2: Ulthwe and other specific Craftworlds went out the window long ago and thankfully so. It's confusing enough keeping up with Marine variants. Compare the humble guardian to the dark eldar warrior and you fall shy -1 init, -1 BS, 12" of shooting, and no poison on a STR 3 weapon. Guardians are terrible for their points and should be adjusted to be in line with the current range of codex out there.

3: Dire Avengers are currently only useful as a 5 man upgrade to a vehicle. Yea yea, bladestorm and doom and all that jazz but right now they are going to get mulched after shooting by any fleet D-Eldar list, any B-Angels assault marines, any ork boys on a waaaugh, pretty much any other eldar unit... it just.. it doesnt make sense for a dying race with unparalleled technology to shoot from within charge range of the enemy.

4: The "questionably best" eldar assault unit in the game is also the most numerous aspect among the eldar. It also would give the army the ability to play another playstyle that it currently cannot. Notice I didnt try to shift scorpions around? Banshees should be allowed to be troops.

5: Eldar getting a single assault transport is hardly gamebreaking and again, it allows Eldar to have multiple playstyles. Right now you only see WW Spam, Jetbike council, or dual council played to any real effect in a tournament. Did you look at the last Ard Boyz results at all?

6: So only Marines are allowed BS4 on transports? It's cool to have 45 point Rhino's with the same destructive power as a wave serpent for 55 points? Your saying that 1 AV and the fast skimmer rule is worth another 100 points? I'm not buying that. I think that our tanks should have BS4 because our guardians should have BS4, and Guardians fly the tanks.

I'm going to assume you dont play Eldar at all, and that you simply don't like the idea of another army gaining and REAL strength to the competitive level of marines or DE. That's reflected in your "Now you know how the DE feel." What is that supposed to mean? Buffs in 40k are like affirmative action? Since DE had it bad for years they're the only ones allowed to gain any edge in an update? In order for Eldar to play and win and not simply play for draws against DE, BA, IG, and GK's, they need a substanial jump in power.

And yes, smartass, it does sound like "new codex". Which is why I posted in the first place. I was pointing out that unlike a lot of posters in here, I dont care whats plastic or whats finecast, I just want the playability of my army to improve and I want options in feasible listbuilding.

Thunderfrog wrote:
1: Wraithlords are T10, not 7.

You're both wrong.

I'd like to see the codex add lots of bits and pieces but not change too much to do with the aspect warriors really as I think they all serve their purpose in their own way, however the phoenix lords need balancing against characters in general points wise and surely all have inv. saves? Be nice to see more people playing them rather than being ditched for duel farseers and jump pack walkers sound cooooooooool!!!!

DarknessEternal wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:
1: Wraithlords are T10, not 7.

You're both wrong.

T8... Survey says? Ding Ding Ding!!!

He said felt, past tense as to how the DE players felt when eldar were updated, DE were not for over a decade.
DA are in troops as they are the most numerous shrines, while fluffwise Banshees might be also numerous for shrines they are still an elite choice, full power weapon unit as a troops choice? Sounds like it is not strength you are wanting for the army, but broken choices.
Guardians are trained to the level of a general guardsman, so basic military training as reflected in their stat line, and why they are the common troop choice, which also have an assault variant if you want a more assault orientated playstyle.
The ability to take more than one warlock power would make the unit a lot more useful, perhaps locks allowed 2 powers, but still using one per turn.
Farseers the ability to use 2 as standard, stones for a third would have them respected as psykers and not just on par with marines using 2 per turn.

I have already said that against DE warriors guardians are need of a severe overhaul as well.
And yes, I play eldar myself, have done since RT.

Honestly though 40k codex creep is starting to become a major reason to just stop playing totally. Your example of comparing the army's transports to marines is starting to make me think players and GW just expect marines vs marines battles.

I have to be honest, when I first glanced at the title of this thread I thought that "small, far away" was a subtitle to the thread rather than the posters username!

Not a bad omen I hope?

Unfortunately me defending myself is likely to start derailing this thread, so unless someone just really pushes a button I'll try to refrain from coming back in here unless it's to comment on what someone else has to say..

1: Wraithlord Toughness.. Whoops!

2: I don't want broken choices, I want choices on par with what other codexes have. Asking for BS 4 on an expensive core choice that isnt survivable at all isn't broken. If DE, BA and GK are the standard line of power now, all new codexes should be in line with them. Besides, full power weapons are humbled by Str3/T3 and 1 attack base. Compare that to the taken as troops deathcult assassins and you fall way short of the standard mark.

Again, I don't want anything stronger than the other books have. I just want to be on the same curve. 40k codex creep sucks, it really does, but not liking it doesnt mean that my army should be ignored by it and left with a single 45 point bright lance shot only available on a 135pt transport when DE can take 3 of them for less on a mobile platform with AV and a 5+ ward with higher BS for less points.

Vermillion wrote:
Honestly though 40k codex creep is starting to become a major reason to just stop playing totally. Your example of comparing the army's transports to marines is starting to make me think players and GW just expect marines vs marines battles.

Ayup...

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

Vermillion wrote:
Honestly though 40k codex creep is starting to become a major reason to just stop playing totally. Your example of comparing the army's transports to marines is starting to make me think players and GW just expect marines vs marines battles.

Ayup...

Wait, I forgot it's now marines vs. marines or marines vs god marines. That codex and army concept shouldn't have been done, single squads of awesomeness was fine and fitted their rarer than fairly priced GW products fluff .

Thunderfrog wrote:I don't want broken choices, I want choices on par with what other codexes have.

Rest assured Gw GW made 5 killer codexes in a row that are on par with eachother (even if they blow away pre 5th ed codexes) by the time they actually get to the Eldar codex it'll be spot on competively.

As far as the assault transport issue. When over half the armies in the game have access to an assault transport (ya know the 6 flavors of marine that have access to a Land Raider or Storm Raven, or the Orcs and Dark Eldars who have access to open tops they can assault out of) I don't really see the problem with leveling the playing field for the two or three armies left in the game who can't assault out of a transport. The notion of getting out of a transport and getting to assault only after getting shot at by squad after squad is totally BS (and I don't mean Ballistic Skill). And both of the Eldar's current jump troops aren't assault based they're shooty jumpers.

Anyways this thread is becoming that other thread with the proposed rules for the new Eldar Codex that's been around for months. Thanks very much for posting pictures from Games Day and some actual rumors (lol, actual rumors = oxymoron).

And Lunahound I haven't seen a post from you in forever. I thought you died. Good to see you again.

Will be drooling and waiting patiently for more pics and rumors (even if the sources are less than stable).

Yea. It sucks that anything concrete is soooo far off. Out of curiosity has GW ever converted a FW model into a regular use option? Eldar got some neat FW goodies recently.

Im surprised at some of the Stickmonkey hate. I thought the majority of people considered his rumors fairly sound.

Thunderfrog wrote:Yea. It sucks that anything concrete is soooo far off. Out of curiosity has GW ever converted a FW model into a regular use option? Eldar got some neat FW goodies recently.

Im surprised at some of the Stickmonkey hate. I thought the majority of people considered his rumors fairly sound.

Yes the Night Spinner is one of the items that used to be a FW only item.

So is the Tyranid Trygon. With this they actually enchanced the product by fluffing for and adding options for the Trygon Prime and the Mawloc.

AustonT wrote:Ahh a wish list with ridiculous hopes and dreams, reminds me of a young senator from Illinois.

Thunderfrog wrote:In my opinion I'm far less worried about models and new units than I am the rules and points adjustments for whatever they decide to go with.

Wriathguard need a 5+ invul and a points reduction if stuck with 12" range.

Wraithlords need a 5+ invul.
On top of being T7 how bout no Scott. They need an AV...again or to remain as is
Guardians need BS 4.
only if they are Uthwe
Avenger Catapults need a longer range.
longer than what? Regular catapults? Done
Banshees should become a core choice.
So that you can bring 6 of what is ultimately the best Eldar assault unit and not have to make a choice between that or the eldar tank busters? That sounds like a unit that belongs in elites to me.
Eldar need at least 1 tank with the assault vehicle designation.
Need is such a funny word, it's not enough that all Eldar tanks are fast skimmers with some of the best weapons options in the game (vice 4e pricing), now they 'need' an assault rule.
Grav Tanks all need BS 4.
Yes they need BS4 the way IG tanks need BS4

Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Phoenix Lords, and Autarchs all need rules/options/wargear/price adjustments.
this is often called "a new codex"
I'm so jealous of the D Eldar codex. They can take so many options and everything but the Mandrakes are solid choices.

I just want to be on par with our dark cousins.
now you know what DE players have felt like for years.

Nice one, friend, I couldn't agree more. Everybody seems to want their 5 minutes in the sun don't they? Having said that, I am looking forward to new rules/models etc.

BTW, I noticed on the picture of the warlock sculpt that it was set in a slotta base unlike the guardian. Does anyone with knowledge of these things know if at this concept stage GW would have already designated the warlock as finecast rather than plastic? I reckon this model would probably be done in FC, however it's something to look out for I suppose...

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Rest assured Gw GW made 5 killer codexes in a row that are on par with eachother (even if they blow away pre 5th ed codexes) by the time they actually get to the Eldar codex it'll be spot on competively.

I've always thought that Eldar would come out 6 months before 6th edition that changes the game such that the codex is full of broken, non-rules.

Considering that's what happened that last two times, it seems like the precedent is there.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:SIGH

I really hate how GW keeps retconning their fluff.

I mean from Rogue Trader up through 5th edition it's been clear that the Eldar are a race in decline, on the edge of extinction.

They should be cutting the number of eldar units, not expanding them! Surely it would be more fluffy if the next codex eliminated Scorpions and Dark Reapers, or at least Shinning Spears and Swooping Hawks.

Instead they're adding more units.

We should boycott the Eldar until GW finally starts living up to its fluff!

Yes, the Craftworld Eldar are in decline, but what of the Exodites?

And of course there's no reason to suggest that certain Aspects wouldn't fall out of favour while others increase. The Eldar swap paths, from warrior to sculptor to pilot and many more It's very feasible that, say, the number of painters and poets may decrease in times of war, bolstering the numbers walking the path of the Aspect Warriors and thus older and nigh-extinct Shrines would be resurrected in times of dire need.

DarknessEternal wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:
Rest assured Gw GW made 5 killer codexes in a row that are on par with eachother (even if they blow away pre 5th ed codexes) by the time they actually get to the Eldar codex it'll be spot on competively.

I've always thought that Eldar would come out 6 months before 6th edition that changes the game such that the codex is full of broken, non-rules.

Considering that's what happened that last two times, it seems like the precedent is there.

3rd ed Eldar came out in August 1999, 10 months after the 3rd edition of 40k was released.
4th ed Eldar came out in Novemeber of 2006, 2 years and 3 months after 4th ed 40k. 5th ed was July of 2008 so the 4th ed codex only got 20 months of goodness before the new edition came out and fudged a bunch of stuff up. 3rd ed was usable for much longer, even though I liked the 4th ed codex much better. So I see what you're saying. The (a) problem is that the edition changes every 4 years. If GW happened to nail down the rules a bit more they could strech out that four years to 6 or so (3rd ed was 10-1998 to 4th ed 8-2004, 6 six years) making codices viable a little longer.

MightyGodzilla wrote:
As far as the assault transport issue. When over half the armies in the game have access to an assault transport (ya know the 6 flavors of marine that have access to a Land Raider or Storm Raven, or the Orcs and Dark Eldars who have access to open tops they can assault out of) I don't really see the problem with leveling the playing field for the two or three armies left in the game who can't assault out of a transport. The notion of getting out of a transport and getting to assault only after getting shot at by squad after squad is totally BS (and I don't mean Ballistic Skill). And both of the Eldar's current jump troops aren't assault based they're shooty jumpers.

The only way that Eldar getting an assault vehicle would be remotely balanced would be if those vehicles were not able to take any of the most popular Eldar vehicle upgrades.

The DE and Ork assault vehicles are mostly AV10 and open topped. The only one better has side armor 12 and is open topped. The open topped rule means that 50% of penetrating hits will destroy the vehicle, assuming no AP1. Yes, both armies have the ability to mitigate shooting to a degree with invulnerable or cover saves, but that doesn't eliminate the fact that it doesn't take much shooting to kill them. Additionally, DE pay a premium for their assault transports, in that a Raider costs almost twice as much as the new Rhinos.

Land Raiders are assault vehicles, but they're not Fast and they are just as capable of dieing to a single lascannon or meltagun as any other vehicle. Additionally, they start out at 250 points, and aren't as survivable as most Eldar vehicles that cost half to two thirds that much.

In my opinion, a fast, skimmer, assault vehicle that has the survivability of the current Falcon with all its toys should start around 300 points.

As much as I want my banshees assaulting the turn they disembark after zooming up the table I'm forced to agree. With our gravtanks being amongst the best tanks in the game imo simply because of stones and holo fields an assault transport would be a premium price.
So pretty much what we pay just now for our transports?
To balance this out however a variant of the venom for small assault squads, or a turret weaponless WS? But given the falcon has bigger guns at a smaller transport capability I could see that being an issue.

For me, it's just the survivability. I have no problem with Eldar having an assault vehicle, as long as it cannot take holo-fields, for the most part. An assault vehicle with that much resiliency carrying units of Banshees would be just plain stupid.

(Holo-fields are the one that makes you roll two dice and pick the lowest for dmg results, right? I always get the names of the fields mixed up.)

Vermillion wrote:To balance this out however a variant of the venom for small assault squads, or a turret weaponless WS?

The suggestion I made once elsewhere for a fluffy Eldar assault vehicle was to let the occupants of a Wave Serpent charge a unit that has been hit by the WS's Tank Shock. This wouldn't be as overpowered as an unconditional assault ramp (since you'd risk disruption by Death or Glory attacks, and would have a shorter range since you have to deploy behind the WS), and would provide an obvious in-universe mechanic for why it works. Plus, the mental image is cool.

Agrees with both Vermillion and Saldiven. I don't have a problem with tweeking points cost or survivability on proposed transport or introducing a new transport designated for assault. And for all we know 6th ed may revamp the assault section yet again as it applies to carried troops. But as it stands now, I'd like something to be done.

And yes Holo-fields are the one that makes you roll two dice and pick the lowest for damage results.

thunderfrog wrote:I'm going to assume you dont play Eldar at all, and that you simply don't like the idea of another army gaining and REAL strength to the competitive level of marines or DE. That's reflected in your "Now you know how the DE feel." What is that supposed to mean? Buffs in 40k are like affirmative action? Since DE had it bad for years they're the only ones allowed to gain any edge in an update? In order for Eldar to play and win and not simply play for draws against DE, BA, IG, and GK's, they need a substanial jump in power

My heart fair bleeds for you. Naming off the most recent codexes and QQ because you have to play for a draw. The truth is in competent hands the 4e Eldar codex is highly competitive and has a plethora of choices. If your game is determined by the tournament meta, that's a personal problem.
Not every codex has to have what everyone else has otherwise we might as well all play SM. Which is apparently what you would like. No, Thundertoad Eldar should not have assault vehicles in addition to thier already abundant panoply of vehicle upgrades. Guardians shall remain the same as they always have, cheap useless troop choices to hold down objectives and shield weapons platforms. And you and Mat Ward can sit in the corner and scheme about how awesome it would be to make Howling Banshees 4s a across with 2A a 3+ save and Jump Packs.

Thunderfrog - civilian militia who have never picked a gun up should NTO be BS4. They are BS3 because they are inherently as good as trained guardsmen.

And yes, Fast, Skimmer is worth a LOT of points. Ditto the extra front and side AV

Small, Far Away wrote:These appeared on BOLS this morning.

Eldar mid to late 2012. Possibly 1st or 2nd official 6 ed codex

Guardians being redone. Will include new weapons platform and storm guardian bits.

Avatar getting new fine cast version with weapon options (spear/sword) not as big as FW model, but larger than current.

Lots of new mech options. Jump pack/jet options for walkers similar to new FW models, but unclear if this is new model or upgrade to current model. Upgrade packs don't seem likely, and current model is decent, so I have my doubts about this rumor completely.

New tank options...built on wave serpent/falcon chassis still. Hydra like flak turret, Bonuses against flyers and skimmers. Dcannon tank. And some pulse cannon monster tank...scorpion?

New jet bikes and vypers.

New warlock sculpts.

New aspect sculpts, aspects still likely fine cast.

Some sort of shimmershield device. Portable cover save for a unit, but static once deployed...model in design for it. Sounds fishy to me? But the de have the portal...who knows, I say unlikely.

From obvious dept comes the nightwing and some form of bomber. Neither look at all like de ships, or existing FW. Definitely eldar.

Drop pod of some sort that can carry 20 troops, 10 wraith guard, or 1 wraith lord. Deploys as firebase that has higher cover rating for guardians. Sounds like a bastion that drops into play with a weapons platform attached. Not sure I buy into this rumor completely, it seems too complex the way it's been described. And I never saw any evidence of this in design before.

Cheers. Still super long off, though. Have your salt handy.

From Stickmonkey

Discuss.

The Jump Jets might be more truthful than we think. The Forgeworld variant War Walker doesn't feature in the IA Apocalypse 2nd Edition. All the other stuff is, barring the Asoect Warriors. It's possibly just a coincidence, but raises my eyebrow if nothing else.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Thunderfrog - civilian militia who have never picked a gun up should NTO be BS4. They are BS3 because they are inherently as good as trained guardsmen.

Guardians are Eldar not currently on any Aspect path. That does not mean they've never picked up a gun, either as an ex-Aspect Warrior or simply in their hundreds of years of life.

Thunderfrog wrote:In my opinion I'm far less worried about models and new units than I am the rules and points adjustments for whatever they decide to go with.

Wriathguard need a 5+ invul and a points reduction if stuck with 12" range.

Wraithlords need a 5+ invul.

Guardians need BS 4.

Avenger Catapults need a longer range.

Banshees should become a core choice.

Eldar need at least 1 tank with the assault vehicle designation.

Grav Tanks all need BS 4.

Vypers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Wraithguard, Phoenix Lords, and Autarchs all need rules/options/wargear/price adjustments.

I'm so jealous of the D Eldar codex. They can take so many options and everything but the Mandrakes are solid choices.

I just want to be on par with our dark cousins.

I agree with every bit of this. Sept the part about banshees. If that happened you might as well just play DE with Wyches.

Hmm very good point. comparing a codex which is now the oldest bar necrons I believe (ignoring the SoB "update" 2 nd oldest) to the past couple is extremely skewing the comparison. Especially as they were written in different editions. The eldar vehicles are priced perfectly for a system where they could move 12" and fire one weapon above str 6 and all weapons str 6 or below for example .

And as an eldar player I don't play for the draw unless I'm getting hammered already, so dunno what he's on about there. The eldar still have a fight in them, even with current codex woes.

Thunderfrog wrote:1: Wraithlords are T10, not 7. I'd gladly lose 2 points of toughness for an invul OR AV 12. Problem is they aren't really mechanized walkers.. or.. are they? I know their basically mechanized zombies.. it's a hard one that. Either way, taking a MC at 115 points or so that dies in one shooting phase to three shots from laz/plas spam is pretty annoying. Furthermore, Wraithbone armor grants warlocks a 4+ invul. I dont see why a giant shell of wraithbone armor doesn't provide an invul to the big boys of the army.

2: Ulthwe and other specific Craftworlds went out the window long ago and thankfully so. It's confusing enough keeping up with Marine variants. Compare the humble guardian to the dark eldar warrior and you fall shy -1 init, -1 BS, 12" of shooting, and no poison on a STR 3 weapon. Guardians are terrible for their points and should be adjusted to be in line with the current range of codex out there.

3: Dire Avengers are currently only useful as a 5 man upgrade to a vehicle. Yea yea, bladestorm and doom and all that jazz but right now they are going to get mulched after shooting by any fleet D-Eldar list, any B-Angels assault marines, any ork boys on a waaaugh, pretty much any other eldar unit... it just.. it doesnt make sense for a dying race with unparalleled technology to shoot from within charge range of the enemy.

4: The "questionably best" eldar assault unit in the game is also the most numerous aspect among the eldar. It also would give the army the ability to play another playstyle that it currently cannot. Notice I didnt try to shift scorpions around? Banshees should be allowed to be troops.

5: Eldar getting a single assault transport is hardly gamebreaking and again, it allows Eldar to have multiple playstyles. Right now you only see WW Spam, Jetbike council, or dual council played to any real effect in a tournament. Did you look at the last Ard Boyz results at all?

6: So only Marines are allowed BS4 on transports? It's cool to have 45 point Rhino's with the same destructive power as a wave serpent for 55 points? Your saying that 1 AV and the fast skimmer rule is worth another 100 points? I'm not buying that. I think that our tanks should have BS4 because our guardians should have BS4, and Guardians fly the tanks.

I'm going to assume you dont play Eldar at all, and that you simply don't like the idea of another army gaining and REAL strength to the competitive level of marines or DE. That's reflected in your "Now you know how the DE feel." What is that supposed to mean? Buffs in 40k are like affirmative action? Since DE had it bad for years they're the only ones allowed to gain any edge in an update? In order for Eldar to play and win and not simply play for draws against DE, BA, IG, and GK's, they need a substanial jump in power.

And yes, smartass, it does sound like "new codex". Which is why I posted in the first place. I was pointing out that unlike a lot of posters in here, I dont care whats plastic or whats finecast, I just want the playability of my army to improve and I want options in feasible listbuilding.

Wraithlords are T8. Shuriken Catapults as S4, not S3. Are you sure that you play Eldar? Rhinos have the same destructive power as a Wave Serpent? Oddly, my rhinos have never come with the option of Twin Linked Heavy Weapons on the top.....

And why should Bumshees, and not Scorpions, be shunted into Troops? Why not both? Is it because you just want a poo load of Power Weapons? Or is it the old reasoning of 'I PLAY ELDAR!' Oh, and there is no basis in the background for BS4 Guardians. If there was, they would be, and Aspect warriors would be at least BS5....

Mr Mystery wrote:
there is no basis in the background for BS4 Guardians.

Rogue Trader, page 178, all Eldar = WS4, BS4.