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Please...PLEASE just fix my dang vibro cannons so they are decent to use again!! That and fix all my points for vehicles being stupid high. I have seen a few comparisons of the WS to a Rhino points wise. I think he is comparing base costs and weapons but once you add the required turret the WS points cost goes through the roof, even compared to a razorback.

Looking forward to an army that has more poses then a guy holding a gun at 15 degrees, then guy next to him holding his at 30 degrees, and the next one holding his gun at 45 degrees. Looks like snap action poses heheh.

Alpharius wrote:

kronk wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

Oh hell yes. I'd love to get to shoot with a Dreadnought more than once a game...

That sums it up nicely!

T instead of AV?...my Dark Eldar like this idea too!

Killing a Dreadnought with a squad of Wyches shooting with Splinter pistols - priceless!

BlueDagger wrote:*sigh* I personally am not looking forward to an Eldar update any time soon.

#1. Bandwagon Jumpers

#2. GW's fickle "Congrats this unit sucks now, go buy $200 of the new shiney"

#3. The off chance of becoming a Nids codex

#4. The almost certain nerfbat to the face of Runes of Warding

This..

LavuranGuard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

kronk wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

Oh hell yes. I'd love to get to shoot with a Dreadnought more than once a game...

That sums it up nicely!

T instead of AV?...my Dark Eldar like this idea too!

Killing a Dreadnought with a squad of Wyches shooting with Splinter pistols - priceless!

There's one (or two, or three...) in every crowd...

Vermillion wrote:Only downside to the T on the walkers is snipers, it makes me wince watching them get peppered with shots. And some nurgle banner which did 3 unsavable wounds to one a couple of CSM codicies ago.

Snipers....and poisoned weapons. I personally think that a Wraithlord and Wraithguard should not be able to be poisoned.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Only downside to the T on the walkers is snipers, it makes me wince watching them get peppered with shots. And some nurgle banner which did 3 unsavable wounds to one a couple of CSM codicies ago.

Snipers....and poisoned weapons. I personally think that a Wraithlord and Wraithguard should not be able to be poisoned.

Why don't all Eldar players just demand the Moon On A Stick and be done with it? Seriously, ever since I've been online and posting on Forums, the Eldar players have ALWAYS whinged about something or other!

Mr Mystery wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Only downside to the T on the walkers is snipers, it makes me wince watching them get peppered with shots. And some nurgle banner which did 3 unsavable wounds to one a couple of CSM codicies ago.

Snipers....and poisoned weapons. I personally think that a Wraithlord and Wraithguard should not be able to be poisoned.

Why don't all Eldar players just demand the Moon On A Stick and be done with it? Seriously, ever since I've been online and posting on Forums, the Eldar players have ALWAYS whinged about something or other!

That's a bit inflammatory.

Besides, Eldar already have moons on a stick, what good would they do?

Mahtamori wrote:

Mr Mystery wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Only downside to the T on the walkers is snipers, it makes me wince watching them get peppered with shots. And some nurgle banner which did 3 unsavable wounds to one a couple of CSM codicies ago.

Snipers....and poisoned weapons. I personally think that a Wraithlord and Wraithguard should not be able to be poisoned.

Why don't all Eldar players just demand the Moon On A Stick and be done with it? Seriously, ever since I've been online and posting on Forums, the Eldar players have ALWAYS whinged about something or other!

That's a bit inflammatory.

Besides, Eldar already have moons on a stick, what good would they do?

Will you people stop telling people our codex is mostly still workable please, it means more people might take my footdar more seriously in the long run and start plotting their downfall :(

By the argument about not poisoning wraithtroops, then daemons, necrons, most nids arguably due to toxin immunity and ofcourse marines should be immune to poison too . As the rules state, just assume the enemy has special ammo to deal with them, so psychic ammo for poisoning daemons, acid rounds that eat necron living metal etc.

Seriously a couple of units need reworking, and some points adjustments, personally I would do a little overhaul on the HQ section just to see a seer council option there, but given how the farseers work with the eldar army, that is OTT and probably why there wasn't one in the 4th ed codex

AV or Toughness with a rule against poison I'll let the designers figure it out. I just don't envision a saved soul piloting a spirit powered inanimate object falling to poison needles. That's about as far as I'm willing to go. If the designers don't agree with me then so be it. I'm sure I'll have plenty of other units to choose from.

No need to get upset Mr Mystery. I really don't see them changing up how the Wraithlords work.

Alpharius wrote:

LavuranGuard wrote:

Alpharius wrote:

kronk wrote:

Alpharius wrote:
I would LOVE for my Space Marine Dreadnoughts to have "T" instead of "AV"!

Oh hell yes. I'd love to get to shoot with a Dreadnought more than once a game...

That sums it up nicely!

T instead of AV?...my Dark Eldar like this idea too!

Killing a Dreadnought with a squad of Wyches shooting with Splinter pistols - priceless!

There's one (or two, or three...) in every crowd...

Eric Clapton fans? (see what I did there?)

@MightyGodzilla I like not your suggestion! Why not just let the save be protection enough versus poison? At 2+ it'd make them pretty resillient. Anyway we'll have to wait and see.

Mighty - what about charged null field crystals, that shatter the psy pathways used to animate the wraithbone?

You're assuming a simple toxin. Dont

nosferatu1001 wrote:Mighty - what about charged null field crystals, that shatter the psy pathways used to animate the wraithbone?
You're assuming a simple toxin. Dont

Sorry, not buying it. For one thing the Grav Tanks use the same tech as the wraith constructs, and they're not getting splintered to hell. For arguements sake I'll employ the scenario where the Dark Eldar are using the charged null field crystals and they're making their way to the Wraithlord......then the Striking Scorpions jump out of cover to screen. The Dark Eldar fire their poisoned dart meant for the Wraithlord at the quickly approaching Scorpions not having time to change clips (you know because different clips of poisons for different targets) and nothing happens to the Scorpions because they don't particularly have alot of psy pathways....

But you then say the poison is so virulent that it works on everything.....You know what I call that? A melta weapon. If the poison was so virulent that it just works on anything....well targets probably wouldn't be getting armor saves. But it's not, it's just poison, not melta, just poison. We get our saves. And I don't see giant constructs getting poisoned to death....Meltas, missiles, dark lanced, sure. Poison, not so much.

That's just the way the fluff works in my head. The designers may disagree with me, and I mentioned before that if they do it's not a big deal, Eldar have so many slots choices I'd hardly be hurt. If they addressed a different save against poison for wraith constructs I'd be satisfied. As I mentioned before I doubt they will. 50/50, we will have to wait and see.

MightyGodzilla wrote: For one thing the Grav Tanks use the same tech as the wraith constructs,

I was totally waiting for this. So how come Eldar grav tanks don't get invulnerable saves like warlocks? How come Eldar dreadnoughts have a toughness instead of AV. Ah yes, Game mechanics you little rascal! How dare you rear your ugly head.
What they are made of and how it affects each unit is as much game mechanics as fluff. So wraithlords probably can't be poisoned, perhaps manifest destiny errodes thier outer hull and turns them to jelly.
The point is that the fundamental Eldar list WILL NOT CHANGE. The only real question is HOW the list will play. GW issued a policy in the early 2000's that they wouldn't invalidate older models unless they had to. Transport costs in tue book have gone down and on the shelf have gone up. That probably indicates that WS will in fact become cheaper at base cost. But don't go chasing miracles. If you want an open topped assault Eldar army you have one. They are dark and pointy, deal with it. If you want an army with high mobility hard hitting and expensive specialist troops and armor, with median shooting ability welcome to tue infinity circuit.
Just a thought for those of you who think BS3 isn't enough. At 2 points cheaper than a Guardian, shoota boyz are THE most points efficient and deadly model on the table. They only have BS2

Sounds good, all the way up untill the last one. Like people before me have said, it's not in the eldar's way to drop into battle.

MIghty - except it isnt controlled by a dead eldar. That probably helps. Youre also assuming no judge dredd levels of tech - the avility to fire more than one type of weapon

My first army was Eldar, and I really don't see why Wraithguard/lords need protection from poinson. Fluff arguments aren't worth anything here, we need game balance arguments.

DE poison weapons are a problem for Wraithstuff. This isn't a problem for me. In fact, this is the kind of stuff I want to see more of in GW games. I want to see more rock/paper/scissors type arrangements where a unit is incredibly destructive to one type of unit but incredibly vulnerable to another. In the old days this mechanism didn't really get expressed very well. "Everyone is vulnerable to star cannons and power weapons, but horde armies just don't care" doesn't quite fit the bill.

Yes, this means that an Iyanden Eldar list that spams wraithstuff is not going to fare well against a poison spam list. It shouldn't.* Any time you make an army that overly focuses on one side of the list you should be extremely vulnerable to a list from the enemy that focuses on the other. Eldar only need some kind of immunity from poison if poison spam can destroy a balanced Eldar army. Can it?

*For friendly games, I would work with my opponent to make a house rule that gives Iyanden a fighting chance. Perhaps the spirit seers can have an upgrade that allows them to reroll poison armor saves for the unit they are in, or something like that. Something that makes the two armies balanced and makes for an interesting game.

Some good rumours... I cant trust these jet, soooo early to say what and when new eldar dex will appear, but these are all we got.

AustonT wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote: For one thing the Grav Tanks use the same tech as the wraith constructs,

I was totally waiting for this. So how come Eldar grav tanks don't get invulnerable saves like warlocks? How come Eldar dreadnoughts have a toughness instead of AV. Ah yes, Game mechanics you little rascal! How dare you rear your ugly head.
What they are made of and how it affects each unit is as much game mechanics as fluff. So wraithlords probably can't be poisoned, perhaps manifest destiny errodes thier outer hull and turns them to jelly.
The point is that the fundamental Eldar list WILL NOT CHANGE. The only real question is HOW the list will play. GW issued a policy in the early 2000's that they wouldn't invalidate older models unless they had to. Transport costs in tue book have gone down and on the shelf have gone up. That probably indicates that WS will in fact become cheaper at base cost. But don't go chasing miracles. If you want an open topped assault Eldar army you have one. They are dark and pointy, deal with it. If you want an army with high mobility hard hitting and expensive specialist troops and armor, with median shooting ability welcome to tue infinity circuit.
Just a thought for those of you who think BS3 isn't enough. At 2 points cheaper than a Guardian, shoota boyz are THE most points efficient and deadly model on the table. They only have BS2

@ Dreadnought: It's not a dreadnought in any shape or form. The Dreadnought contains a squishy interior and a slightly more squishy exterior than the Wraithlord. As for the rules, the Wraithlord isn't a Dreadnought, it's currently a Carnifex.
@ Invalidating: Currently, there's a lot of invalid models, but I think what you mean. There's nothing inherently wrong with the model-base for the Craftworlders, but the actual performance of the same is a bit on the dodgy-side. Still room for a bit more options, but that's mostly because Craftworld is so specialized when looking at models (it's not like you can customize your aspect warriors the way you can with other codexes).
@ Shootas: The difference is that Shootas also have higher survival due to T4 and significantly better melee ability than Storm Guardians. Essentially you get Storm AND Defender Guardians in the same package for a cheaper price.
BS3 is enough, but the Guardian's equipment leaves something to be desired.

What I personally am hoping is that both Wraithguard (as per rumour) and Guardians are going to get a through look at, more options for both, particularly in the ranged department. And I'm talking about the actual basic models, not appendex models like Warlocks or Platforms.

I'm going with that because Eldar have literally lived for hundreds of years they should get BS 4. guardsmen training maybe 5 or so years Guardian training they don't really stop so if vets get BS 4 for being in combat and training for lets say 10 years shouldn't an Eldar who has better sensory organs like eyes and had much more training time be better? Besides its not like they are hard to kill T3 5+ save.

Eldar may live for hundreds of years, but they are just as happy to spend all that time on pursuits other than martial. Also they take a lot longer to attain what they percieve as perfection.
The bottom line however is this:
Guardians have some martial training, hence BS3, average for having military training. BS4 models take that training to the next level, aspect warriors and in the case of IoM marines.
Fluff arguments mean little in the abstract system of assigning numerical values based on "type" of training a model will be percieved to have had.

FlammingGaunt wrote:I'm going with that because Eldar have literally lived for hundreds of years they should get BS 4. guardsmen training maybe 5 or so years Guardian training they don't really stop so if vets get BS 4 for being in combat and training for lets say 10 years shouldn't an Eldar who has better sensory organs like eyes and had much more training time be better? Besides its not like they are hard to kill T3 5+ save.

Because Guardians aren't a dedicated military unit and are more "citizen soldier" than professional military. Also, game balance. It's good to have a cheap, less effective troops unit in an army that's heavy on expensive cool stuff. Their guns should have 18" range though.

Brother SRM wrote:

FlammingGaunt wrote:I'm going with that because Eldar have literally lived for hundreds of years they should get BS 4. guardsmen training maybe 5 or so years Guardian training they don't really stop so if vets get BS 4 for being in combat and training for lets say 10 years shouldn't an Eldar who has better sensory organs like eyes and had much more training time be better? Besides its not like they are hard to kill T3 5+ save.

Because Guardians aren't a dedicated military unit and are more "citizen soldier" than professional military. Also, game balance. It's good to have a cheap, less effective troops unit in an army that's heavy on expensive cool stuff. Their guns should have 18" range though.

I'd still like them to be back to 24" range. Lets face it, wouldn't break anything, marines still get their save regardless so the poster boys still have the edge

FlammingGaunt wrote:I'm going with that because Eldar have literally lived for hundreds of years they should get BS 4. guardsmen training maybe 5 or so years Guardian training they don't really stop so if vets get BS 4 for being in combat and training for lets say 10 years shouldn't an Eldar who has better sensory organs like eyes and had much more training time be better? Besides its not like they are hard to kill T3 5+ save.

Eldar Guardians are their militia. They spend much of that hundred or so years making paintings or singing to wraithbone. If the Craftworld or Outpost gets attacked, the militia takes up arms.
That being said, this militia has the same accuracy and combat effectiveness of Imperial Guardsmen "requisitioned" for the sole purpose of becoming a soldier.

If an Eldar decides to go the Path of the Warrior, they actually train in becoming a soldier and end up with BS4 after dozens of years. Similarly, if the Eldar goes the PAth of the Exile (Ranger), they take up a sniper rifle and train with that. Ulthwe has (had?) BS4 Guardians because those Black Guardians are their military.
If an Imperial Guardsman survives his squad getting blown up, his homeland wrecked, and dozens of years of trials by fire, be gets rewarded with a BS4 Veteran Status.

Guardians' BS3 makes sense. It's their equipment that doesn't make sense.

The Imperium of Man has amazing technology. Their common soldier (Guardsman) is given awful gear because there is so many of them. Some of their most elite soldiers (Grey Knights, Inquisitors) are given technology that rivals that of Eldar and Necrons.
The Tau have mediocre technology. Their common soldier (Fire Warrior) is given rather good gear because they are a small empire and there aren't that many of them. Some of their most elite soldiers (Hazard Suit Commanders, Stealth Suit Commanders) have somewhat better gear.

The Eldar have technology comparable to the Imperium and the focus/numbers of the Tau. There is no reason Guardians shouldn't be given Aspect Warrior quality armor or those Dire Avenger scoped Shuriken catapults. Keep the BS3. Give the good gear. The Eldar are not poor.

Actually from Path of the Warrior it only takes about half a year (i counted the cycles) to get to aspect levels - it has to be that fast, given the speed they can swap paths. Their war masks allow them to train harder.

Mahtamori wrote:@ Dreadnought: It's not a dreadnought in any shape or form. The Dreadnought contains a squishy interior and a slightly more squishy exterior than the Wraithlord. As for the rules, the Wraithlord isn't a Dreadnought, it's currently a Carnifex.

I get the rest of your post but not this. Allow me to present the wraithlord as a dreadnought in both shape and form.


Invalidated models Eh I couldn't decide what you meant. So Legends also has the 2004 catalogue on digits there is not a model in the 40k section that can't still be legally fielded.

As far as the BS4 Guardian thing goes:

1. Guardians are a Citizen's Militia, which is why their conscripted infantry are as good as trained human Infantry (BS3).
2. Black Guardians were different because they were a standing army. Trained Eldar = BS4 = Elite Human/Space Marine, Militia Eldar = BS3 = Trained Human. Militia/Conscripted Human = BS2. So yes, Eldar are generally better than humans - their militia units are as good as human trained regular army units!
3. Using Rogue Trader as an example (or justification) for BS4 Guardians is, quite frankly, stupid. Back in the RT days people like Leman Russ weren't even Primarchs at the start. Nothing made sense in the RT days. They only started rationalising the 40K universe in 2nd Ed.
4. All that said, how come the Tau (a race technologically inferior to the Eldar in virtually every way) have an upgrade that gives them +1BS yet the Eldar do not.

And, unrelated to the above, the Eldar Wraithlord only became a 'Wraithlord' in 3rd Ed. Up until that point it was called an Eldar Dreadnought. It's just a name folks.

Alpharius wrote:There's one (or two, or three...) in every crowd...

That's because the 40K rules aren't very good, and it never occurred to the writers to think "Hey... maybe Poison shouldn't just be a catch-all rule, because there are things it shouldn't effect/should have less of an impact on!"

The simplest solution is that Poison rules allow for multiple wound types, so you could have a Poison weapon that wounds on 4+/6+, where 4+ is regular infantry, and 6+ is Walkers/Monstrous Creatures. It also allows for all sorts of variation - 2+/4+ for really poisonous things, 6+/6+ for things that are only slightly poisonous, but still poisonous enough that they should have a chance of wounding everything (like supernatural poisons, ie. Nurgle stuff). We've been doing that for years (along with Walkers with T values rather than armour values), it's simple, and it works.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And, unrelated to the above, the Eldar Wraithlord only became a 'Wraithlord' in 3rd Ed. Up until that point it was called an Eldar Dreadnought. It's just a name folks.

Yep, simply to draw a difference between a living operator like marine and ork dreads have and the eldar equivalent powered by spirit stones. Also ofcourse to tie in with wraithguard. So that model, it is no longer a dreadnought, it got renamed in 3rd ed when it was called an eldar wraithlord and was replaced by the the current plastic kit last codex.

The simplest solution is that Poison rules allow for multiple wound types, so you could have a Poison weapon that wounds on 4+/6+, where 4+ is regular infantry, and 6+ is Walkers/Monstrous Creatures. It also allows for all sorts of variation - 2+/4+ for really poisonous things, 6+/6+ for things that are only slightly poisonous, but still poisonous enough that they should have a chance of wounding everything (like supernatural poisons, ie. Nurgle stuff). We've been doing that for years (along with Walkers with T values rather than armour values), it's simple, and it works.

They wont do it, something like that would be way too complicated for the 5 year olds

Vermillion wrote:
... it got renamed in 3rd ed when it was called an eldar wraithlord and was replaced by the the current plastic kit last codex.

It got renamed in 3rd Edition, but the kit came out in 4th edition with the last codex. Its the first codex that allowed them to take a sword rather than a power fist that could strike at I4.

Thats what I said? Well, aside from adding the wraithsword part.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Actually from Path of the Warrior it only takes about half a year (i counted the cycles) to get to aspect levels - it has to be that fast, given the speed they can swap paths. Their war masks allow them to train harder.

Nosferatu... in reply to the above.



Excellent book though.