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wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

They weren't even allowed to ally with a force that contained a model with physic powers (except GK) back when allying was possible. They don't get Whirlwinds either, because they aren't equipped with assault ramps.

Not sure what I'm gunna do with all these marines then. Was planing on picking up the starter box for sixth edition so now I'm gunna have a bunch of ultras and BT lol

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

Black Templars don't have Whirlwinds for whatever reason, and they don't get sergeants in their squads.

Brother SRM wrote:

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

Black Templars don't have Whirlwinds for whatever reason, and they don't get sergeants in their squads.

Unless it's a command squad.

Smegmalicious wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

Black Templars don't have Whirlwinds for whatever reason, and they don't get sergeants in their squads.

Unless it's a command squad.

Also no Devastators.

And no LR Redeemers, No Ironclad Dreadnoughts, no scout squads, no vanguard squads, no sternguard squads, Two crappy named characters (over-priced), no stormraven (I know they're new), no drop pod assault rules, no conversion beamer (but our Tech Marines have 2 wounds), and no land speeder storms.

Also, no Combat Tactics and Combat Squading.

I will be interested to see if they follow the Matt Ward model for Space Marines. Hopefully not, since Phil Kelly is the acclaimed author.

For reference, here's what the Matt Ward Model is, more or less:

Army-Wide:
1-2 unique Special Rules that exemplify the codex (a la Aegis or Descent of Angels), plus ATSKNF

HQ:
- Chapter Bossman with FOC modifying Special Rule, that also exemplifies the Chapter they command (Dante flies around and has Hit and Run, for example)

- Support Character for flavor, of which one or two will have an FOC modifying Special Rule

- Standard HQ units (Captain, Librarian, Chaplain) -- shouldn't have LIbrarians for BT, but at this point all bets are off with retcon possibilities and whatnot. MotF possible?


Troops:
- Standard "Tactical" Squad

- "Exemplar" Squads (Terminator Squads for GK, Assault Squads and Death Company/DC Dreadnoughts for DA)

- Scouts?


Other:
- Elite Units that are "Tactical" Squads, but with +1A, +1Ld and access to more equipment (Sternguard, Purifiers/Paladins, etc), and some cool special rule or piece of gear (Special Ammo, Cleansing Flame, etc)

- Elite/Fast Attack Unit that exemplifies the Chapter's uber-elite-super-shock-troopers (Purifiers/Paladins, Sanguinary Guard, or Thunderwolves for SW, even though Ward didn't write that codex)

- Elite/Heavy Support Dreadnought

- Elite Venerable Dreadnought

- Elite Unique Dreadnought that exemplifies the Chapter (Aegis Dreadnought or Furioso) -- possibility for Chaplain/Reclusiarch Dreadnought in the BT Codex?

- Elites Scouts?

- Fast Attack Jump Infantry version of "Tactical" Squad with close-combat focus

- Fast Attack Elite Jump Infantry version of the same.

- All the standard Fast Attack/Heavy Support vehicles, plus something unique for the Chapter (Storm Raven now standard, but Baal Predator for BA and Dreadknight for GK, even though it's not a vehicle)

* * * * *

I know it's not exact, but it gives the general framework of much of the Space Marine armies of late, and even some other armies (DE have Kabalite Trueborn to their Warriors, and Hekatrix Bloodbrides to their Wyches, for example).

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:I will be interested to see if they follow the Matt Ward model for Space Marines. Hopefully not, since Phil Kelly is the acclaimed author.

For reference, here's what the Matt Ward Model is, more or less:

***STUFF***

Game Store Owner: Your hate for this idea, the very possibility of Ward writing your beloved Black Templars codex, how much is it really?

Me: It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAANND!

BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

BaronIveagh wrote:Game Store Owner: Your hate for this idea, the very possibility of Ward writing your beloved Black Templars codex, how much is it really?

Me: It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAANND!

I should have clarified; I wouldn't hate it, I'd just like to see a little more variation to his formula for the past several codices. At this point, the only news regarding the Templars that won't be met with eager excitement from me would be new of their army's cancellation.

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Smegmalicious wrote:And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

That would not be surprising at all, actually. a Dreadnaught SC would be a pretty appropriate "Champion, but turned up to 11" to go along with the current style where every Codex has units that maybe are a teensy bit overboard int he theme department.

Balance wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

That would not be surprising at all, actually. a Dreadnaught SC would be a pretty appropriate "Champion, but turned up to 11" to go along with the current style where every Codex has units that maybe are a teensy bit overboard int he theme department.

If BA can have psyker dreadnoughts (which really, if they have them, all marines should have them...), then BT should be able to have chaplain and EC dreads.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Well of course. But you should be able to do things like take a jump pack or whatever other equipment is available to normal HQ. I also think you should be have various statlines to choose from like a normal HQ.

Smegmalicious wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Well of course. But you should be able to do things like take a jump pack or whatever other equipment is available to normal HQ. I also think you should be have various statlines to choose from like a normal HQ.

That might make more sense if whatever gear you gave the EC ( Jump Pack, Bike, etc...) became the standard kit for whatever you were going to count as Troops in the army. Especially since the EC going lone wolf makes zero tactical or fluff sense, and it would allow for interesting new variants of the list, as opposed to just black tide and mechanized black tide spam.

InnerLight wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Well of course. But you should be able to do things like take a jump pack or whatever other equipment is available to normal HQ. I also think you should be have various statlines to choose from like a normal HQ.

That might make more sense if whatever gear you gave the EC ( Jump Pack, Bike, etc...) became the standard kit for whatever you were going to count as Troops in the army. Especially since the EC going lone wolf makes zero tactical or fluff sense, and it would allow for interesting new variants of the list, as opposed to just black tide and mechanized black tide spam.

The army I've found to be most effective is missile spam. 3x terminators with CML, a chainfist and tank hunters, 3x squads of 2 typhoons and then several las plas in rhinos to fill out your points. That list rocks the pants off of anything else I've put on the board.

Still horribly against fluff, which I hate, but it's really effective at range and the terminators are no joke in hand to hand thanks to favored enemy.

kronk wrote:And no LR Redeemers, No Ironclad Dreadnoughts, no scout squads, no vanguard squads, no sternguard squads, Two crappy named characters (over-priced), no stormraven (I know they're new), no drop pod assault rules, no conversion beamer (but our Tech Marines have 2 wounds), and no land speeder storms.

Also, no Combat Tactics and Combat Squading.

Yes, but aside from scouts (who are in crusader squads anyway) literally every one of those options is from the 5th ed Space Marines and Blood Angels codices, which are somewhere around 3 and 4 years older, respectively. That's like saying the Imperial Guard doesn't get Valkyries and Leman Russ Punishers in their Rogue Trader armylist. Such options simply didn't exist.

Corpsman_of_Krieg summed up the guidelines for recent codices perfectly.


The idea of a special dreadnought for the BT sounds good to me. It makes no sense that only Blood Angels can have other Marines such as a Librarian in a dreadnought. Chaplain/Reclusiarch would make the most sense to me.

With the rumored date of release at 3 Mar 12, is there any word as to whether the Templars will make it into the starter set for 6th Edition?

As much as I like the boys in black, I feel that using the Templars as 6th Edition's Loyalist poster child might be a regressive step for GW. The game has become much more mainstream since the days of 3rd Edition, when they were last featured, and I'm concerned that a game already full to bursting with grimdark might send a slightly over-strong message to prospective buyers by ramping it up to 11. Templars are the most xenophobic and intolerant of the Astartes after all; doesn't their character and story alone make them better suited as a "stage two" type of army?

What I mean, is you have slightly more generic armies that are a little more forgiving in terms of playstyle and fluff to new buyers (Vanilla Space Marines and Orks, for example; hence their presence in the 5th Edition kit). Then, you have more specialized armies that are not only geared toward veteran players, but also have consequently darker and more morbid fluff attached to them (Dark Eldar, anyone?).

GW did well for themselves by putting the Ultras and Orks into 5th Edition's kit; is it going to be a misstep to switch out Guilliman's boys for Dorn's Templars? Food for thought, I suppose.

* * * * *

Regarding the BT Codex, I hope that the percentage rumor pans out. Fielding innumerable Crusader Squads was a blast in 4th Edition (and was somewhat competitive, too). Maybe we'll get different types of Troop choices? Shield-bearing types would be fun.

. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.

They WERE a popular army to jervis and company F'd them up pretty badly during the infamous "were nopt going to put fluff in the codex" era.....

carmachu wrote:

. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.

They WERE a popular army to jervis and company F'd them up pretty badly during the infamous "were nopt going to put fluff in the codex" era.....

You mean third edition?

Brother SRM wrote:

carmachu wrote:

. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.

They WERE a popular army to jervis and company F'd them up pretty badly during the infamous "were nopt going to put fluff in the codex" era.....

You mean third edition?

Most likely. They were quite popular til they screwed them. They along with DE were the only ones of that era that seemed to need a second printing of the codex to crrect things(menaing its stamped on the front 2nd update or some such).

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:With the rumored date of release at 3 Mar 12, is there any word as to whether the Templars will make it into the starter set for 6th Edition?

As much as I like the boys in black, I feel that using the Templars as 6th Edition's Loyalist poster child might be a regressive step for GW. The game has become much more mainstream since the days of 3rd Edition, when they were last featured, and I'm concerned that a game already full to bursting with grimdark might send a slightly over-strong message to prospective buyers by ramping it up to 11. Templars are the most xenophobic and intolerant of the Astartes after all; doesn't their character and story alone make them better suited as a "stage two" type of army?

Nope, Dark Angels are easily the most xenophopic Astartes, to the point that they'll pack up and leave a battle just because the IG brought in abhumans like ogryns!

As for the Jervis & co screwing DA's over in 3rd... Please recall how WD worked back then. After the 'Index Astartes' article on the DA's, there was a whole page of errata which basically tooled around with some of the pts in the DA codex because they were paying alot more pts than the newer codicies were for almost the same thing! (ie: Deathwing termies dropped in pts, as did ravenwing IIRC, give plasma cannons to tac squads, along with a number of clarifications)
The errata page also added the option to field the Master of the Ravenwing on his bike, as upto that point, he was stuck with just his very expensive land speeder!

Jervis screwed over the dark Angels with their current book. Being an overly simplified pile of junk which pays through the nose for almost all of options, reducing it to codex: multiwing as being the only viable way to play competitively!


Those '2nd edition' books were just 2nd printings, which included the rather lengthy erratas so that players didn't need to carry around WD's with them as well;
- Dark Eldar had a number of pts re-ajustments, plus vehicle upgrades were finally added!
- Chaos Marines had the most changes to fix-up the obvious mistakes, (anyone else recall the thrall wizards with T1/3W?!!) GW just kept quite about it! You could tell if you had the 2nd printing because the date was on the inside page and IIRC it read 're-printed in 2002/3' or such...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Nope, Dark Angels are easily the most xenophopic Astartes, to the point that they'll pack up and leave a battle just because the IG brought in abhumans like ogryns!

As for the Jervis & co screwing DA's over in 3rd... Please recall how WD worked back then. After the 'Index Astartes' article on the DA's, there was a whole page of errata which basically tooled around with some of the pts in the DA codex because they were paying alot more pts than the newer codicies were for almost the same thing! (ie: Deathwing termies dropped in pts, as did ravenwing IIRC, give plasma cannons to tac squads, along with a number of clarifications)
The errata page also added the option to field the Master of the Ravenwing on his bike, as upto that point, he was stuck with just his very expensive land speeder!

Jervis screwed over the dark Angels with their current book. Being an overly simplified pile of junk which pays through the nose for almost all of options, reducing it to codex: multiwing as being the only viable way to play competitively!


Those '2nd edition' books were just 2nd printings, which included the rather lengthy erratas so that players didn't need to carry around WD's with them as well;
- Dark Eldar had a number of pts re-ajustments, plus vehicle upgrades were finally added!
- Chaos Marines had the most changes to fix-up the obvious mistakes, (anyone else recall the thrall wizards with T1/3W?!!) GW just kept quite about it! You could tell if you had the 2nd printing because the date was on the inside page and IIRC it read 're-printed in 2002/3' or such...

I'm not sure if I conveyed my point. What I'm getting at is that on the GRIMDARK (tm) scale, Black Templars >> Ultramarines. Since more the more mainstream a product becomes, the less distant from center its flagship products become in an effort to grab a larger target audience. This brings me to my point, which is this: will increasing the GRIMDARK (tm) in their flagship product by adding Templars, thus moving it farther from center, negatively impact the breadth of their target audience by driving away some of the would-be buyers that would otherwise be interested if the boys in blue were still front and center?

Speculation? Sure, but something to consider I suppose.

Corpsman_of_Krieg, I just have to comment on your signature: Mill was a political and social theoretician who worked for the East India Company.

"Auferre trucidare rapere falsis nominis imperium, atque ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. " Tacitus

"To plunder, slaughter and rape they give the false name of empire, and where they make a solitude they call it peace." Tacitus

His father in law was Gnaeus Julius Agricola, conqueror of the majority of Britain.

No not really, they were the poster boys in the 3rd edition starter set and extremely popular on account of their simple colour scheme and strong rules.

Added to that is the fact that most people just think knights in space when they see Templars. Knights are still a very common theme in popular childrens literature with fairy tales, cartoons and the like so its not as grimdark as you are making it out; superficially at least. But then most people will just view the product superficially if they are buying it, Iam thinking of mommy and daddy here. Reading the background thats certainly not the case! However even then they usually just read like generic heroes battling the forces of evil, even if they're a bit brutal about it.

BaronIveagh wrote:Corpsman_of_Krieg, I just have to comment on your signature: Mill was a political and social theoretician who worked for the East India Company.

"Auferre trucidare rapere falsis nominis imperium, atque ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. " Tacitus

"To plunder, slaughter and rape they give the false name of empire, and where they make a solitude they call it peace." Tacitus

His father in law was Gnaeus Julius Agricola, conqueror of the majority of Britain.

Since it is difficult to infer precisely what you intended with the above comment, I'm going to have to ask for clarification. Much of the meaning conveyed is lost when text is the only medium, so I don't want to incorrectly think you mean something other than what you intended to say.


@Totalwar1402:
A fair point. I guess by the time the initial buyer realizes the darker aspects exist, they'll have already purchased the kit.

From Sticky Monkey on Warseer. He was commenting on future releases.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5978438#post5978438

My sources are giving me the following general timelines of codex releases

2012
Q1/2 - tau (or flipped w BT)
Q2/3 - BT ( possible WD codex)
Q3 - 6 Ed
Q3/4 - eldar

2013 getting fuzzy
Q1 - SM
Q2/3 - chaos legions (new)
Q4 - ig or orks!

2014. So much could change...no order given
Daemons
Nids
DA?

This is a long way out, and a lot could change, but we know the studio has long lead times.

Cheers, Merry Christmas.

So a PDF for Black Templar??? Remember a rumour only.

i'm glad to see BT get the WD codex they deserve!