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Pilau Rice wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

McNinja wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.

NIcely put

^ Seconded

But the whole dealio with 40k is that this is true, that the inventions up until the Age of Strife were or are possibly greater than anything created after Unification hence the importance and active search for STCs etc. So in a way GW have got their asses covered by saying that if there are better things now then in 40k, it's because it was lost and hasn't been discovered again.

From The Titan Legions (by Rick Priestley, excerpted from WD 178)

The planet soon became a battleground where rival warlords fought over the ruins of a once great civilisation. All of Earth's ancient knowledge was lost and its cities destroyed

When the Cult Mechanicus restored order to Mars its leaders looked to Earth and beyond, hoping to find remnants of human knowledge on other worlds. The Tech- Priests were appalled at the destruction on Earth and judged there was nothing worth saving.

Bit of a cop - out admittedly

It is indeed a massive cop-out, but therein lies the problem: the WH40k universe is built on the concept of turning up to "11." It can't be at "11" if current day tech beats it out by a longshot, no matter how well GW covers their ass with BS cop-outs. Comparatively, the tech need to be more powerful than ours. Also, GW needs to define their tech more. I haven't read any of the books, but it seems that there isn't a lot of demonstrations against their own tech. We need to know A) how 40k materials compare to current day materials (is 1inch of Adamantium equal to six inches of titanium? ten inches?) and B) how the various weapons of 40K react to those materials. Gauss weapons are the most fearsome because they have a very overarching effect on all materials, but how about the others? Aside form Eldar D-weapons, of course.

The reason we know how effective our weapons are is because we have something to compare them against. There are no standards of comparison in the 40k universe, which is why it seems so underpowered compared to modern day weapons. It also doesn't help that GW previous tactics of "just making up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.

Perhaps GW should just provide comparisons as well as a simple "so the AdMech just found a bunch of STCs and ancient weapons on planet X" cop-out. it would solve a lot of problems.

King Pariah wrote:
Well, we agree on something. Hell in modern warfare melee is not uncommon, but we use knives and appendages rather than swords

Thank the Emperor that we agree on something
And I really miss bayonets in modern warfare

King Pariah wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And swords in 40k do make sense.
Lots of melee combat is one example.

Well, we agree on something. Hell in modern warfare melee is not uncommon, but we use knives and appendages rather than swords

This. In modern day warfare, if you're in close combat, you've either done something wrong or you're part of an infiltration unit/squad/shenanigans.

It does make a bit more sense in WH40k, where, because battles are fought on a planetary scale rather than in a city or building, there is more open room. Then again, the problem with that is the fact that combat turns to extremely out-dated tactics that haven't been used since WW1, and provokes imagery of the Civil War rather than anything else. An actual modern day force, in the open, and provided with cover, would never advance, at all.

King Pariah wrote:
I think you miss out on what makes metal storm actually a good weapon system. I mean several nations are already purchasing a utilizing it IRL. It's fast and accurate. On the battlefield, those who are accurate tend to win. If all involved are accurate, then those who are faster tend to win. Metal storm provides volleys of high speed accurate rounds to annihilate whatever you need destroyed, you need to intercept missiles? Check. Wipe out a battalion of tanks? Check. Wipe out a convoy? Check. Clear a fortified structure? Check. Are there other ways to pull off these tasks? Yes, but most of those are either more expensive or take longer. And I don't think I should have to say this, but in the field of battle, time means a lot. The longer you have to engage the enemy, the higher your chances become of you being wiped out. I know that if I were facing down a crazy mad horde of orks or CSM, I'd be glad to have even one metal storm (obviously 40k'd out) to lay down some heavy volleys to thin out their ranks in not even seconds.

And i will be more glad to have calm-headed mortar or lascannon crew behind me.

Actually despite all the hype no reasonable army would widely use MS system - as except specialist use - last-ditch point-defence forex- it's not as effective as it looks - read stories 'bout skirmishes in Iraq - and you'll find one thing that is definitely matters despite air/artillery support is called fire discipline. With MS you won't be able to provide reasonable supressing fire (comp. to standart MG). As for many other thing you've said...well,several RPGs/Shmels can take care of them, something like Spike ATSGM also not as expensive as one can think.

Ironically, early MGs/mitrailleuses were deemed to be ineffective due to exactly by same reasons that can be applied to MS(which ,simple put, is most primitive mitrailleuse redone with modern technology) - mostly you've spent ammo to overkill several enemies while enemies outside of firing sector are unaffected, flaw that usual fragmentation artillery/mortar shells tend to not have.



So (IMHO of course) what definitely would be great addition to IG and even SM armoury is if some adventurous AM replicate and improve long-lost technology of thermobaric warheads for man-portable missile launchers. Though sadly these will work only on habitable planets, but anything less protected than SM powerarmor will be easy meat for them. Though i'm not so sure that PA will be adequate protection.

There is a HUGE difference between skirmishes and scales of battles that happen in 40k. Skirmish? I almost totally agree that using Metal Storm isn't that great of an idea. Battles that make Stalingrad and Kursk look like kids playing soldiers? Yeah, I don't think I'd mind having something that can go ahead and mow down rank after rank, column after column of tanks, infantry, and incoming fire.

I was in the army btw, and I completely agree that discipline takes place first. a good weapon in an undisciplined person's hands might as well be a rock to throw more often than not. I'm just saying that in the scale of battle that IG tend to get thrown into, this would probably be a tremendous weapon to have.

@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

purplefood wrote:

McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.

King Pariah wrote:

purplefood wrote:

McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.

Considering they were built to do it i'd say it's a good idea...
Do you think they can hit bolt rounds mid flight?

pretre wrote:

KingDeath wrote:You mean, we build our military vehicles in the most absurd, impractical form possible? Well, that's new to me.

No, I meant that in modern combat situations some of our APCs are deathtraps.

An APC was meant to last roughly 57 seconds on a projected WWIII battlefield, along with the troops inside it.

Say, 15 hours as a guardsman isn't looking too bad now.

King Pariah wrote:

purplefood wrote:

McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.

The IoM should use reactive armor on their tanks...

Anyway, yeah, against multiple missiles/stripping extra armor layers it would be fantastic, which is what I'm fairly certain it was designed for. Also, does the IoM use SAMs? Or just giant lasers against airborne targets?

McNinja wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

purplefood wrote:

McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.

The IoM should use reactive armor on their tanks...

Anyway, yeah, against multiple missiles/stripping extra armor layers it would be fantastic, which is what I'm fairly certain it was designed for. Also, does the IoM use SAMs? Or just giant lasers against airborne targets?

They get a chimera chassis.
They strap 2 autocannon and an advanced auspex on.
They call it the hydra!

purplefood wrote:

McNinja wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

purplefood wrote:

McNinja wrote:@Chyron: True. The Metal Storm would only reach its full potential in a defensive position, on a Fortress Monastery or Hive City or redoubt or other defensive edifice. In that capacity, it is perhaps one of the most useful weapons that could be available to the IoM forces. Tyranids invade the planet? Metal Storm. Orks? Metal Storm. Chaos? Metal Storm... full of Psybolts! A plus would be that Psybolts wouldn't mess with any internal firing mechanisms.

Knowing the IoM, any Metal Storm would be made a dozen times larger and fire larger ammo, which would only be to their advantage. Being able to manually control the direction of the Metal Storm is key.

Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

Not a bad idea at all where as reactive armor is only one time use this could release as many waves as necessary to incapacitate the incoming rocket/missile and still have rounds left over to take out whatever rocket/missile comes next.

The IoM should use reactive armor on their tanks...

Anyway, yeah, against multiple missiles/stripping extra armor layers it would be fantastic, which is what I'm fairly certain it was designed for. Also, does the IoM use SAMs? Or just giant lasers against airborne targets?

They get a chimera chassis.
They strap 2 autocannon and an advanced auspex on.
They call it the hydra!

Dang, I totally forgot about that! That answers my question.

I bet they would just melt it down and make more lasguns or something.

purplefood wrote:
Put them on vehicles and shoot down AT rockets...

Good call, I to sugest mounting on Chimera but it never acured to me for Anti-Rocket system.

What about Laser Point Defense? They can surely use that on tanks and aircraft.

McNinja wrote:It is indeed a massive cop-out, but therein lies the problem: the WH40k universe is built on the concept of turning up to "11." It can't be at "11" if current day tech beats it out by a longshot, no matter how well GW covers their ass with BS cop-outs. Comparatively, the tech need to be more powerful than ours. Also, GW needs to define their tech more. I haven't read any of the books, but it seems that there isn't a lot of demonstrations against their own tech. We need to know A) how 40k materials compare to current day materials (is 1inch of Adamantium equal to six inches of titanium? ten inches?) and B) how the various weapons of 40K react to those materials. Gauss weapons are the most fearsome because they have a very overarching effect on all materials, but how about the others? Aside form Eldar D-weapons, of course.

The reason we know how effective our weapons are is because we have something to compare them against. There are no standards of comparison in the 40k universe, which is why it seems so underpowered compared to modern day weapons. It also doesn't help that GW previous tactics of "just making up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.

Why do we need to know though? I don't think it's BS as it is a fictional universe after all. Maybe they should advance it, but the foundations were laid back in the 80's and they can't introduce a lot of new weapons because we're at the end of the timeline already and everything now is filler, which to me, is one of the problems I had with the Dreadknight. Perhaps if we get to 41k they will add new stuff?

One of the problems here is that there just isn't GW there is Black Library and other wings and all give different information on occasion, which is poor also.

A lot of the stuff they have in the 40k Universe is maxed at 11, the Shokk Attak Gun, Cyclonic Torpedoes, Exterminatus, I see what you are saying but a lot of what we have now could be compared to something in the 40k Universe, even if it is not that similar or effective in our eyes, It's just something we'll never know. Not everyone is interested in the capability of the Armour as long as we know that it can stop bullets the size of a Guinea Pig, isn't that whats important?

Honestly though I am not that aware of what military advancements we have made, but if it makes loud noises and kills stuff it is cool

McNinja wrote:Perhaps GW should just provide comparisons as well as a simple "so the AdMech just found a bunch of STCs and ancient weapons on planet X" cop-out. it would solve a lot of problems.

But they haven't a Bolt Gun, Lascannon or anything else to compare too. All we have is a weapon from today and an imaginary weapon from a fictional universe. It would be cool I suppose, but then how would they go about predicting the data? Maybe they should use any profit garnered from Finecast into military development

Thanks for replying btb

Edit: Spellingz

King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109

This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*

Bobthehero wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109

This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*

\

What civilian needs a sniper rifle that powerful? I'd take a 75$ surplus Mosin-Nagant over that any day...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

McNinja wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

blazinpsycho&typhooni wrote:

McNinja wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Fluff-wise, GW needs to update their fluff in the same way Shadowrun did when the internet was invented. It'll be only a few years before people will look at WH40k and say "we have better tech than that today, and this is supposed to be 40,000 years in the future?" Ok, maybe longer than few years, but you see what I mean.

NIcely put

^ Seconded

But the whole dealio with 40k is that this is true, that the inventions up until the Age of Strife were or are possibly greater than anything created after Unification hence the importance and active search for STCs etc. So in a way GW have got their asses covered by saying that if there are better things now then in 40k, it's because it was lost and hasn't been discovered again.

From The Titan Legions (by Rick Priestley, excerpted from WD 178)

The planet soon became a battleground where rival warlords fought over the ruins of a once great civilisation. All of Earth's ancient knowledge was lost and its cities destroyed

When the Cult Mechanicus restored order to Mars its leaders looked to Earth and beyond, hoping to find remnants of human knowledge on other worlds. The Tech- Priests were appalled at the destruction on Earth and judged there was nothing worth saving.

Bit of a cop - out admittedly

It is indeed a massive cop-out, but therein lies the problem: the WH40k universe is built on the concept of turning up to "11." It can't be at "11" if current day tech beats it out by a longshot, no matter how well GW covers their ass with BS cop-outs. Comparatively, the tech need to be more powerful than ours. Also, GW needs to define their tech more. I haven't read any of the books, but it seems that there isn't a lot of demonstrations against their own tech. We need to know A) how 40k materials compare to current day materials (is 1inch of Adamantium equal to six inches of titanium? ten inches?) and B) how the various weapons of 40K react to those materials. Gauss weapons are the most fearsome because they have a very overarching effect on all materials, but how about the others? Aside form Eldar D-weapons, of course.

The reason we know how effective our weapons are is because we have something to compare them against. There are no standards of comparison in the 40k universe, which is why it seems so underpowered compared to modern day weapons. It also doesn't help that GW previous tactics of "just making up" doesn't work anymore. I mean, Depleted Deuterium Cores on the Bolters? You can't deplete Hydrogen. Making weapons .75 caliber weapons? We have those, and in great number (40mm grenade launchers have been around for a long time), so they aren't as big as they were.

Perhaps GW should just provide comparisons as well as a simple "so the AdMech just found a bunch of STCs and ancient weapons on planet X" cop-out. it would solve a lot of problems.

In terms of 40k tech, I think its a bit of step forward and backward. The Imperium is so vast that we know not all planets have the same tech level. We also know, (If you read Ravenor Rogue) that even with the sheer amount of personell that adminstrate the imperium on a daily basis, not all information on a single dossier is actually read by the civil servants. So I guess you could say that GW has an excuse written into their fluff for this stuff.

DoctorZombie wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109

This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*

\

What civilian needs a sniper rifle that powerful? I'd take a 75$ surplus Mosin-Nagant over that any day...

Dude its a MGL, not a sniper rifle. The one with the bloke holding the damned thing is the sniper rifle

Well... considering how crappy the weapons the imperium use are, they could learn a thing or two about ours. I mean seriously? forgetting to put sights on weapons for SPACE MARINES? jesus... Its just stupid how they could forget such basic upgrades to weapons. I mean their guns still jam thats awful, and also are there any statistics for Imperiums weapons? im sure our sniper rifles are greater than theirs... missing at point blank range is a feat my friends. Ask the space marine scouts.

The Crusader wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109

This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*

\

What civilian needs a sniper rifle that powerful? I'd take a 75$ surplus Mosin-Nagant over that any day...

Dude its a MGL, not a sniper rifle. The one with the bloke holding the damned thing is the sniper rifle

Yeah, that's an antimateriel rifle in the photo. Which is basically a sniper rifle.

Chowderhead wrote:"Brother Artemis, did you forget to take out the trash?"

This ^

The Son Of Russ wrote:Well... considering how crappy the weapons the imperium use are, they could learn a thing or two about ours. I mean seriously? forgetting to put sights on weapons for SPACE MARINES? jesus... Its just stupid how they could forget such basic upgrades to weapons. I mean their guns still jam thats awful, and also are there any statistics for Imperiums weapons? im sure our sniper rifles are greater than theirs... missing at point blank range is a feat my friends. Ask the space marine scouts.

Bolters don't need sights. The space marines have targeting implants. Besides, isn't there a ridge like thing above the bolter? I always thought that acted as a sight.
And guns will always jam. You can lower the chance of it jamming through good engineering, but it will jam. Especially on the battlefield.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

The Crusader wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

King Pariah wrote:I some of the massive sniper rifles/sniper prototypes like say
XM-109

This gun...
Must... obtain... unlimited power... handcanon...
*violent twitching*

\

What civilian needs a sniper rifle that powerful? I'd take a 75$ surplus Mosin-Nagant over that any day...

Dude its a MGL, not a sniper rifle. The one with the bloke holding the damned thing is the sniper rifle

Yeah, that's an antimateriel rifle in the photo. Which is basically a sniper rifle.

How dare you call it a rifle! lol

But no, it really actually isn't called a rifle but rather an Objective Sniper Weapon or OSW. Is the barrel rifled? Yes. Does it operate like a sniper rifle? Yes. Does firing 25mm grenades up to 2.2 (yeah finally found it's max range) miles accurately make it have a class of its own? Apparently.

So...its a sniper rifle that fires grenades?
...Damn that's awesome! I suddenly want that to be in fallout now. I can only have a .50 cal there

King Pariah wrote:
But no, it really actually isn't called a rifle but rather an Objective Sniper Weapon or OSW. Is the barrel rifled? Yes. Does it operate like a sniper rifle? Yes. Does firing 25mm grenades up to 2.2 (yeah finally found it's max range) miles accurately make it have a class of its own? Apparently.

So... Is it a boltgun sniper (a boltgun with much greater range but much slower rate of fire) or what?

AtoMaki wrote:

King Pariah wrote:
But no, it really actually isn't called a rifle but rather an Objective Sniper Weapon or OSW. Is the barrel rifled? Yes. Does it operate like a sniper rifle? Yes. Does firing 25mm grenades up to 2.2 (yeah finally found it's max range) miles accurately make it have a class of its own? Apparently.

So... Is it a boltgun sniper (a boltgun with much greater range but much slower rate of fire) or what?

Guess you could call it that though it can also take out armor (Though it's better if the armor happens to be within 1.5 miles), make short work of small structures/rooms and whoever happens to be inside. It all depends on what the round you fire is whether it be HE, AP, Air Fragmentation, etc.

King Pariah wrote:
Guess you could call it that though it can also take out armor (Though it's better if the armor happens to be within 1.5 miles), make short work of small structures/rooms and whoever happens to be inside. It all depends on what the round you fire is whether it be HE, AP, Air Fragmentation, etc.

Just like boltgun special ammo. And a boltgun ammo that rolls 2D6 for armour penetration would be neat (and OP like hell) .

Just thinking that the Imperium would definitely mount a varient of a 40k'd Metal Storm on a titan. Then it could fire a million room sized projectiles a minute and simply, casually bring about the destruction of entire armies.

My question of the whole idea of the "Metal Storm" Is why in gods name would the Imperium make the hard task of supplying ammunition to every little tiny pocket of the galaxy even more difficult when they have weapons that can be recharged by fire? Sunlight? Basic Heat?