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purplefood wrote:
The number was merely a random number used for argument.
Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=ZFjGbOyd2ek

The metalstorm can already currently fire anti-armour rounds. It is also very accurate.

2 words: EMP shock wave.
After that this weapon become just pile of metal to loot.


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McNinja wrote:One weapon I forgot about: the GAU-8/A (I think that's the name of it) on the A-10 Thunderbolt, also known as "the Flying Gun."

It fires 30mm rounds at 6k rounds/min, and is used for annihilating tanks. It has over 4 tons of recoil, with actually cuts the speed of the plane it is attached to in half.

I think that the IoM would be very interesting in that.

Like they don't have something called Autocannons that are mounted on Thunderbolts, just fire slower but have more powerful round to fire.


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Warrior Squirrel wrote:Well we can see how ignorant the Imperium is by reading Brother Coa´s posts. HURR IMPERIUM HURR
Nothing ill meant Coa, its just these are real weapons while the Imperial weps are made up by nerds. I mean really, a pistol that fires a bolt as powerfull as the sun...

Ha ha ha....very funny.....

But you are right, GW need to update it's fluff in run with current technology ( some of it anyway ).
And if you read more clearly I said that Metal Storm would be adopted by Astartes, now I am sure because I looked at that purplefood video. Thank you purplefood
However, the ammunition problem still remains, the gun fire to much ammo to fast and because of that I see very little use in the Guard.
Maybe they will mount it on top of Chimera chassis and use it as Astartes use Razborack.


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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Convert the metalstorm to fire as a multilaser. Hook it up to a solar panel. There, now its str 6 ap 6 assualt 1,000,000

Then it will became a simple Multilaser. It is unique because it can fire 1.000.000 projectile rounds per minute.
If you turn it into energy weapon it will became just a regular IG turret. Energy weapons just have different power output, the more powerful the shot is the slower it is.
Now, if you could convert for Lasscannon to fire that quickly...


Now my suggestion on what should Imperium use on the battlefield more often:




This would be excellent for Guard against everybody - even Tau.

A plane? Yes, all other races are to dumb to shoot it down.

Warrior Squirrel wrote:A plane?

You do know a difference between a plane and FLYING FORTRESS that are hard to shot down?
To my knowledge Imperium doesn't have anything like it. Tau have Manta, but it is not the same thing ( Manta is a transport ).
It is hard to shot something down when it operates beyond ordinary missile range.

They almost get there at times.









Honestly surprised some of them don't just fall apart mid air.

Brother Coa wrote:

Warrior Squirrel wrote:A plane?

You do know a difference between a plane and FLYING FORTRESS that are hard to shot down?
To my knowledge Imperium doesn't have anything like it. Tau have Manta, but it is not the same thing ( Manta is a transport ).
It is hard to shot something down when it operates beyond ordinary missile range.

Ummm... The AC-130 is not hard to shoot down and really can only be effectively operated in areas where air superiority has been established... C-130's and their variants may be big, but big doesn't mean a whole lot with an aircraft's survivability. And that EMP statement is easily overcome, ever heard of EMP hardened circuits? (Hell, by that logic, lasguns could probably be taken out as well as tanks and titans and aircraft...)

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
The number was merely a random number used for argument.
Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=ZFjGbOyd2ek

The metalstorm can already currently fire anti-armour rounds. It is also very accurate.

2 words: EMP shock wave.
After that this weapon become just pile of metal to loot.

That 3... or 5 depending on how you look at it.
No one uses EMPs because everyone is either unaffected or proofed against it.
Lasguns for instance would also be useless...
Just give up Coa.
Your arguments are all defeated. Ammo isn't an issue we have been through that already...

Coa, how can you argue against a las-storm. On average it will kill 147 marine chapters...*

Coa, your failed logic has failed.

Glad you didnt say Caboose. I guess my intentionaly failed logic is still working. Well not now since i told. You. It is intentionally failed logic.

So... the Metal Storm fires a million rounds a minute?

So It cost a few million dollars to fire it for two minutes?

That don't make sence.

I thought it had 99 tubes with 12 rounds each, firing 99 shot each second.

Sorry if this was answered but the conversation was running in circles on page one.

So I skipped to the end.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Glad you didnt say Caboose. I guess my intentionaly failed logic is still working. Well not now since i told. You. It is intentionally failed logic.

No, you were not really debating and was pretty amusing in a good way. I got a huge chuckle when you said the million shot multilaser would kill 147 chapters.

DeffDred wrote:So... the Metal Storm fires a million rounds a minute?

So It cost a few million dollars to fire it for two minutes?

That don't make sence.

I thought it had 99 tubes with 12 rounds each, firing 99 shot each second.

Sorry if this was answered but the conversation was running in circles on page one.

So I skipped to the end.

If it fired for 1 minute constantly it would fire just over 1 million rounds.

DeffDred wrote:So... the Metal Storm fires a million rounds a minute?

So It cost a few million dollars to fire it for two minutes?

That don't make sence.

I thought it had 99 tubes with 12 rounds each, firing 99 shot each second.

Sorry if this was answered but the conversation was running in circles on page one.

So I skipped to the end.

First off it's doubtful anyone would hold down the trigger for that long. Anyone who knows machine guns and automatic weapons in general can tell you it's not a good idea. And different versions have different amount of ammunition and one variant I can think of has a sort of reloading system where the empty barrels are pushed out the side and a new set drops into place from the top. Anyway, this weapon is more like fire a few volleys here, a few volleys there and a few here. Where as with the weapons in 40k and many now would take maybe 5 seconds for each volley, this can do that same volley in a fraction of a second. Same amount of rounds going the same place, but faster.

King Pariah wrote:
Ummm... The AC-130 is not hard to shoot down and really can only be effectively operated in areas where air superiority has been established... C-130's and their variants may be big, but big doesn't mean a whole lot with an aircraft's survivability. And that EMP statement is easily overcome, ever heard of EMP hardened circuits? (Hell, by that logic, lasguns could probably be taken out as well as tanks and titans and aircraft...)

I know that, if they just protect him they could bring harm to the enemy. Against Tyranids or Orks who lack air support Specter would be more then enough.
It would be more precise then artillery, and if they mount Vanquisher and Exterminator cannons on it it would be death for those on ground.
And the Guard lacks just that kind of thing, air support flying fortress.

Brother Coa wrote:

King Pariah wrote:
Ummm... The AC-130 is not hard to shoot down and really can only be effectively operated in areas where air superiority has been established... C-130's and their variants may be big, but big doesn't mean a whole lot with an aircraft's survivability. And that EMP statement is easily overcome, ever heard of EMP hardened circuits? (Hell, by that logic, lasguns could probably be taken out as well as tanks and titans and aircraft...)

I know that, if they just protect him they could bring harm to the enemy. Against Tyranids or Orks who lack air support Specter would be more then enough.
It would be more precise then artillery, and if they mount Vanquisher and Exterminator cannons on it it would be death for those on ground.
And the Guard lacks just that kind of thing, air support flying fortress.

They lack it for a reason. The Navy have it.

purplefood wrote:
Lasguns for instance would also be useless...
Just give up Coa.
Your arguments are all defeated. Ammo isn't an issue we have been through that already...

Aren't Lasguns protected against EMP since Tau are known to use them?
Ammo isn't the issue? Tell that to Scytes of The Emperor who ran out of ammo in the end.
And if you read Taros Campaign you would notice how chaotic Imperial supply of ammunition can be ( like Stormtroopers receiving horse saddles instead of vox gear, and that was before engagements ). It's easy to transport it and supply it today when engagements are local and enemy is few. In 40k everything is on big scale and Guard waste ammo more then then Munitorium can deliver it. My arguments are still Las weapons. If the Guard didn't have ammo problems they would stick to the Autoguns and Bolters not Lasguns.


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purplefood wrote:
They lack it for a reason. The Navy have it.

No they don't. Give me one example of imperial Craft similar to Spectre in role.


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ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Coa, how can you argue against a las-storm.

I am arguing against small caliber storm efficiency against Marines and Carnifex alike.
Lass storm of 1.000.000 Guardsmen can take down a space ship with all that power

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Lasguns for instance would also be useless...
Just give up Coa.
Your arguments are all defeated. Ammo isn't an issue we have been through that already...

Aren't Lasguns protected against EMP since Tau are known to use them?
Ammo isn't the issue? Tell that to Scytes of The Emperor who ran out of ammo in the end.
And if you read Taros Campaign you would notice how chaotic Imperial supply of ammunition can be ( like Stormtroopers receiving horse saddles instead of vox gear, and that was before engagements ). It's easy to transport it and supply it today when engagements are local and enemy is few. In 40k everything is on big scale and Guard waste ammo more then then Munitorium can deliver it. My arguments are still Las weapons. If the Guard didn't have ammo problems they would stick to the Autoguns and Bolters not Lasguns.


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purplefood wrote:
They lack it for a reason. The Navy have it.

No they don't. Give me one example of imperial Craft similar to Spectre in role.

Imperator class battleship.
Hell a destroyer has enough firepower to be of use in support.
If everyone is dead ammo wouldn't be an issue. it's the same number of rounds used but faster what part of that don't you get? They use heavy bolters, mortars and missile launchers already it wouldn't take much to supply them with whatever ammo they needed. They could used HB rounds with a few modifications.

purplefood wrote:
Imperator class battleship.
Hell a destroyer has enough firepower to be of use in support.

Your logic is failed, I never saw Imperial ship entering atmosphere and proving support with his weapons.
I am talking about big plane with tank and artillery armament, not freaking spaceship that is several kilometers long.

If everyone is dead ammo wouldn't be an issue. it's the same number of rounds used but faster what part of that don't you get? They use heavy bolters, mortars and missile launchers already it wouldn't take much to supply them with whatever ammo they needed. They could used HB rounds with a few modifications.

Heavy Bolter turrets don't spend 1.000.000 Bolts in minute.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Imperator class battleship.
Hell a destroyer has enough firepower to be of use in support.

Your logic is failed, I never saw Imperial ship entering atmosphere and proving support with his weapons.
I am talking about big plane with tank and artillery armament, not freaking spaceship that is several kilometers long.

If everyone is dead ammo wouldn't be an issue. it's the same number of rounds used but faster what part of that don't you get? They use heavy bolters, mortars and missile launchers already it wouldn't take much to supply them with whatever ammo they needed. They could used HB rounds with a few modifications.

Heavy Bolter turrets don't spend 1.000.000 Bolts in minute.

Yeah but if heavy bolters did they'd be better. Even better than them is the metalstorm.
Why have a plane that can be shot down when you have a gigantic spaceship? The spaceship wins.

This super high rate of fire weapons are fairly redundant and useless, the ammo they waste doesn't make up for their performance, I'd feel better IRL with a .50 Cal or MAG over a Metal Storm, and if I was in warhammer I'd certainly feel better with a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon.

That being said, a ridiculous "1 million rounds per minute" weapon does fit in nicely with the over-the-top weapons of 40k.

UAV's and an AC-130 would probably be useful for the Imperium. The AC-130 would be given engines similar to a Valkyrie instead of its propellers I imagine.

Another useful weapon would be accurate long-range Cruise Missiles: Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, and so on. They could take out enemy strongpoints from thousands of km away and if you put a small plasma, nuclear, or virus warhead on them you'd get catastrophic damage. Much cheaper and simpler then a Deathstrike as well.

purplefood wrote:
Why have a plane that can be shot down when you have a gigantic spaceship? The spaceship wins.

Because they are not using them at all in the fluff?
Seriously pf, every time Imperium invade a planet fleet just sit up there and do nothing.
They only bombard sometimes, blowing half of the city in process.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Why have a plane that can be shot down when you have a gigantic spaceship? The spaceship wins.

Because they are not using them at all in the fluff?
Seriously pf, every time Imperium invade a planet fleet just sit up there and do nothing.
They only bombard sometimes, blowing half of the city in process.

They have the skill to make precision shots.
They often do.

Harriticus wrote:This super high rate of fire weapons are fairly redundant and useless, the ammo they waste doesn't make up for their performance, I'd feel better IRL with a .50 Cal or MAG over a Metal Storm, and if I was in warhammer I'd certainly feel better with a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon.

That being said, a ridiculous "1 million rounds per minute" weapon does fit in nicely with the over-the-top weapons of 40k.

Precisely my point.

UAV's and an AC-130 would probably be useful for the Imperium. The AC-130 would be given engines similar to a Valkyrie instead of its propellers I imagine.

I don't know for UAV but A-10 would be perfect. Just exchange standard bullets for autocannon round and there you go.

Another useful weapon would be accurate long-range Cruise Missiles: Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, and so on. They could take out enemy strongpoints from thousands of km away and if you put a small plasma, nuclear, or virus warhead on them you'd get catastrophic damage. Much cheaper and simpler then a Deathstrike as well.

Uh.....Hunter-Killer missile?
Just make a big one.


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purplefood wrote:
They often do.

Most of the time they don't.
It is usually the ground forces that do all the work. Navy just send fighters and bombers. they act only if they need town erased from the surface, nothing more.

Harriticus wrote:This super high rate of fire weapons are fairly redundant and useless, the ammo they waste doesn't make up for their performance, I'd feel better IRL with a .50 Cal or MAG over a Metal Storm, and if I was in warhammer I'd certainly feel better with a Heavy Bolter or Autocannon.

That being said, a ridiculous "1 million rounds per minute" weapon does fit in nicely with the over-the-top weapons of 40k.

UAV's and an AC-130 would probably be useful for the Imperium. The AC-130 would be given engines similar to a Valkyrie instead of its propellers I imagine.

Another useful weapon would be accurate long-range Cruise Missiles: Tomahawk, AGM-86, AGM-129, and so on. They could take out enemy strongpoints from thousands of km away and if you put a small plasma, nuclear, or virus warhead on them you'd get catastrophic damage. Much cheaper and simpler then a Deathstrike as well.

I think you miss out on what makes metal storm actually a good weapon system. I mean several nations are already purchasing a utilizing it IRL. It's fast and accurate. On the battlefield, those who are accurate tend to win. If all involved are accurate, then those who are faster tend to win. Metal storm provides volleys of high speed accurate rounds to annihilate whatever you need destroyed, you need to intercept missiles? Check. Wipe out a battalion of tanks? Check. Wipe out a convoy? Check. Clear a fortified structure? Check. Are there other ways to pull off these tasks? Yes, but most of those are either more expensive or take longer. And I don't think I should have to say this, but in the field of battle, time means a lot. The longer you have to engage the enemy, the higher your chances become of you being wiped out. I know that if I were facing down a crazy mad horde of orks or CSM, I'd be glad to have even one metal storm (obviously 40k'd out) to lay down some heavy volleys to thin out their ranks in not even seconds.

I'll admit that the AC-130 wouldn't be a terrible idea to have, if it were not for imperial warships already being able to drop some heavy orbital strikes from space which would nullify much of the worry of being shot down especially over such extremely hostile territory. Tomahawks and the such are also pretty awesome, but are more of a last resort when no warship can provide orbital support.

It should be noted that the Imperium has numerous air resources that act as fire support, they just get glossed over much of the time: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Aeronautica-Imperialis/Imperial_Navy_Squadrons

The Imperial Armor books often describe excellent arial tactics being used, especially by space marines performing surgical strikes.

The Rogue Trader RPG series also describes there being numerous forms of air support, from fighters to lighters to gunships.

We don't get stories about 'most of the time', just like we don't study most of modern battles. We pay attention when things go wrong (bay of pigs, black hawk down, etc). When bombardment is an option, or total air superiority has been achieved there isn't a story to be discussed. What we here about (in the well written stories at least) are battles where those aren't options.

Orbital ships cannot come into range due to fortified weaponry on the ground, or the area is too valuable to be destroyed. Heavy jamming, anti air weaponry, and countermeasures make aerial support untenable. Key objectives have to be captured before the main force arrives. Those are the situations most 40k games and books illustrait. The Imperium has been demonstrated to have equivalents to most modern weapons, and can be extrapolated to have improved versions of all of them, and when they can be used I'm sure they are. You just don't get books about those situations.

And then there is the horrible writing, obviously.

Why are you all seeking logical warfare tactics in a game that has people flying halfway across the galaxy to fight an enemy with swords? W40k is ruled by the rule of cool not sound tactics. If the imperium got there hands on metal storm they would no doubt use it. But you would not see it in a codex (how much dice would you need to roll) Besides do we even know the rate of fire of a punnisher canon?

Lord Demon wrote:Why are you all seeking logical warfare tactics in a game that has people flying halfway across the galaxy to fight an enemy with swords? W40k is ruled by the rule of cool not sound tactics. If the imperium got there hands on metal storm they would no doubt use it. But you would not see it in a codex (how much dice would you need to roll) Besides do we even know the rate of fire of a punnisher canon?

Ugh, I hate this argument. "Why are you talking about how light-sabers would work, they are rule of cool magic swords in space", "Gosh, why are you talking about the ethics of Star Trek transportation, it was just a way to avoid using lander props."

You know the answer to your own question right? Because people enjoy discussing and comparing fictional universes? Is this really that hard? How come whenever some people see a fun conversation about a fictional universe they have to jump in, "you know that is imaginary right? Hurr hurr, no fun for you."

The fun is in discussing WHY would they fight like that, and how would that style of warfare match up with this style.

If you approach it like you would the real world it is a fun conversation. Have you ever heard people complain about victorian line warfare? "hah hah, their dumb, wearing their bright red coats and standing in lines. Psssh, how dumb, don't they know camo and gurilla warfare is superior?" But it turns out when you study the subject, it turns out it DID make sense and was an excellent approach to warfare for the period and location. The unifroms and flags allowed coordination and command before the existence of radio and radar, the pipes, drums and horns were used to help unit cohesion and to give orders, and volley fire allowed you to raise large, deadly armies without years of training.

So people approach fictional universes the same way, as if they were real. You know how Tolkien spend years developing his world, the language, history, poetry, etc? He did it for the same reason. It is fun to think about the possabilities of a fictional universe. Why is this so hard for some people?

And swords in 40k do make sense.
Lots of melee combat is one example.

Brother Coa wrote:And swords in 40k do make sense.
Lots of melee combat is one example.

QFT. Most people don't realize it, but melee weapons trump a holstered fire arm at 15ft, and trump an unholstered firearm at 6 ft. Look up the results of the Tueller Drill if your interested. Things like jump jets and inhumanly fast enemies can greatly increase that threat range.

The fact that there are so many enemies in 40k that use CC, and effective ways to get in CC range is enough reason for CC units to exist in every army, since they are one of the few effective counters. They also have use as terror weapons.

Brother Coa wrote:And swords in 40k do make sense.
Lots of melee combat is one example.

Well, we agree on something. Hell in modern warfare melee is not uncommon, but we use knives and appendages rather than swords