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Look I read your post. It's full of the stereotypical helpless mentality that in all honesty is the reason bullies target people.

You say thing like I don't know what it's like. I know exactly what it's like. You are not a special snowflake. Everybody on the planet has been bullied at one point or the other. Most people figure out how to deal with it. It is pretty simple, you make it not worth their effort or enjoyable.

You say I'm confusing Bullies with jerks. No, I'm not. The difference between a jerk and a bully is that the jerk figured he couldn't bully you and moved on to someone else. That's all there is to it. They really are the same person and once they figure that they can take out all their problems on you guess what, they come back until you give them a reason not to.

You are not asking for simple human decency. You are asking for random strangers who have no involvement with the situation to stand up for you. No worse, you are asking self absorbed, narcissistic, teenagers to give a crap about someone other than themselves. This is highly unlikely. You are asking teacher to risk loosing their jobs. You are asking tax payers to spend money on security. These people are not treating you like less than a human, they are treating you exactly how they treat all humans. What you are asking for is someone to step in and save you. They only person treating you like less than a human are the people actually bullying you. All because you can't sack up and handle some bullies.

Look I know it can feel like the whole school is against you. They aren't they just don't care. Some of them might take a snip at you here or there, but in general you are not even on these peoples radars. There is one thing a high schooler cares about and that is "ME".

These people treat you like a play thing because you let them.

And people just watch. Ppeople who need do nothing more than speak up and do the right thing

This is the best quote yet. This is my point. "People need to do nothing more than speak up and do the right thing" that is essentially all you have to do to. In all my school days the kid that got picked on the longest was the kid that never did anything but take it. Not the different kid, or the smallest kid, or the poorest kid. The sad thing is I always knew that if he could take that mental flailing everyday without killing himself he was tougher than most of the kids taunting him. He just either didn't realize this or believe this himself. I helped some kids in these same situations, the ones that would listen came out fine. The ones that wouldn't well...I mean hanging out with them was putting a target on my back again. I tried and that was all I was gonna do for someone who wouldn't help themselves.

I can understand that people feel like no body does or cares anything about it. In all honesty people do quite a bit to stop it. It's in all the papers and news, ever since colombine it has been an issue. There just isn't much anybody except the victim can do about it.

And again when you get out of school nobody is there to protect you from bullies. They do still exist, It's just not the same on day in and day out for years at a time, but there will always be people who try to get you to be submissive.

There is a difference between believing X can be eliminated, and enacting policy measures which reduce the prevalence of X.

What measures could practically be enacted that haven't been already? Really, I mean my school had arbitration and peer counseling, hell we actually had teachers that would bust heads. we had hall monitors and priests and nuns. That didn't stop it. I don't see anything that can. It's easy to say everybody should be helping, but you have to help yourself out first.

Andrew1975 wrote:
[rant] [/rant]

Wow, you have it all figured out. You should like write a book or something...

Andrew1975 wrote:
What measures could practically be enacted that haven't been already?

Even enforcement, for one.

I smashed an orange on a kid's head twice (yep, I was a massive dick in highschool) and got off with "Did you smash an orange on his head?", "No.", "Alright then." This was largely because I was one of two NMS kids in the school, the smart kids apparently do no ill.

Andrew1975 wrote:
Really, I mean my school had arbitration and peer counseling, hell we actually had teachers that would bust heads. we had hall monitors and priests and nuns. That didn't stop it. I don't see anything that can. It's easy to say everybody should be helping, but you have to help yourself out first.

Again, the question is about reducing, not stopping.

Right. So you smashed an orange on a kids head. Unless you did it in front of a camera or a teacher there is nothing anyone can do about it. It's not a matter of unequal enforcement, its a matter of them catching you. It's not possible for a school to watch every student every second of the day. Or do you expect teachers to believe every story they hear based on face value, because that would be even worse.

How much more can it possibly be reduced? How much more can be done practically to reduce it than is being done. I don't see anything else.

Andrew1975 wrote:Unless you did it in front of a camera or a teacher there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Well, no, there are plenty of things people can do about it. I did it in the lunch room, during lunch, surrounded by at least 200 kids. The faculty could have asked them if I did it, and punished me for having done it. They didn't. They asked me only, either because they thought I wasn't smart enough to lie effectively, or because they didn't really care.

Andrew1975 wrote:
It's not a matter of unequal enforcement, its a matter of them catching you. It's not possible for a school to watch every student every second of the day.

They don't have to catch you in the sense of seeing you, this isn't the US judicial code.

Not everyone gets bullied. My dad taught me from a young age to go for "as much blood as possible" and said that you learn about where to hit people as an adult, but as a kid just go for blood because it scares them.

I idolised my Dad so i took his go for the nose advice.. During my first year of high school a kid a year older pushed me and called me a queer, and even though I was genuinely terrified i forced myself to do what my dad said and smashed him in the face.

He went down like a knackered lift and i got suspended for three days, but when I got back people thought i was awesome and the bully avoided me until i left.

Long story short, despite what the hippies say, violence solves everything, and you should actively encourage your kids to spread peoples noses across their face without engaging in any dialogue.

dogma wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Unless you did it in front of a camera or a teacher there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Well, no, there are plenty of things people can do about it. I did it in the lunch room, during lunch, surrounded by at least 200 kids. The faculty could have asked them if I did it, and punished me for having done it. They didn't. They asked me only, either because they thought I wasn't smart enough to lie effectively, or because they didn't really care.

Andrew1975 wrote:
It's not a matter of unequal enforcement, its a matter of them catching you. It's not possible for a school to watch every student every second of the day.

They don't have to catch you in the sense of seeing you, this isn't the US judicial code.

Ok, but here is the thing and why that doesn't work. All it takes is a handful of kids to corroborate a story then. You really think that gives the loner any help? Guilt becomes a popularity contest at that point and guess who is losing that one? I have seen this happen actually.

mattyrm wrote:Not everyone gets bullied. My dad taught me from a young age to go for "as much blood as possible" and said that you learn about where to hit people as an adult, but as a kid just go for blood because it scares them.

I idolised my Dad so i took his go for the nose advice.. During my first year of high school a kid a year older pushed me and called me a queer, and even though I was genuinely terrified i forced myself to do what my dad said and smashed him in the face.

He went down like a knackered lift and i got suspended for three days, but when I got back people thought i was awesome and the bully avoided me until i left.

Long story short, despite what the hippies say, violence solves everything, and you should actively encourage your kids to spread peoples noses across their face without engaging in any dialogue.

Yeah i have to agree with Matty (Again...)
Violence did seem to solve several of my more aggressive social disputes in secondary school...
After the second year it wasn't a problem...

mattyrm wrote:Not everyone gets bullied. My dad taught me from a young age to go for "as much blood as possible" and said that you learn about where to hit people as an adult, but as a kid just go for blood because it scares them.

I idolised my Dad so i took his go for the nose advice.. During my first year of high school a kid a year older pushed me and called me a queer, and even though I was genuinely terrified i forced myself to do what my dad said and smashed him in the face.

He went down like a knackered lift and i got suspended for three days, but when I got back people thought i was awesome and the bully avoided me until i left.

Long story short, despite what the hippies say, violence solves everything, and you should actively encourage your kids to spread peoples noses across their face without engaging in any dialogue.

This is all I'm saying. Had you taken that you probably would have been bullied from that day on. Maybe not everybody gets bullied, but attempted bullying just sounded stupid so I said everyone gets bullied. Maybe I should have said everyone gets tested. I usually suggest waiting till a they at least square up with you to punch them. Your tactic is what I would reserve for the first day of prison.

purplefood wrote:
Yeah i have to agree with Matty (Again...)
Violence did seem to solve several of my more aggressive social disputes in secondary school...
After the second year it wasn't a problem...

They didn't let you back in?

Andrew1975 wrote:

mattyrm wrote:Not everyone gets bullied. My dad taught me from a young age to go for "as much blood as possible" and said that you learn about where to hit people as an adult, but as a kid just go for blood because it scares them.

I idolised my Dad so i took his go for the nose advice.. During my first year of high school a kid a year older pushed me and called me a queer, and even though I was genuinely terrified i forced myself to do what my dad said and smashed him in the face.

He went down like a knackered lift and i got suspended for three days, but when I got back people thought i was awesome and the bully avoided me until i left.

Long story short, despite what the hippies say, violence solves everything, and you should actively encourage your kids to spread peoples noses across their face without engaging in any dialogue.

I usually suggest waiting till a they at least square up with you to punch them. Your tactic is what I would reserve for the first day of prison.

In prison i raped the wing boss with a broom shank.

Andrew1975 wrote:
Ok, but here is the thing and why that doesn't work. All it takes is a handful of kids to corroborate a story then.

All it takes is one administrator who doesn't like the kid to fabricate a charge.

Its all about judgment.

Andrew1975 wrote:
You really think that gives the loner any help? Guilt becomes a popularity contest at that point and guess who is losing that one? I have seen this happen actually.

Guilt isn't a popularity contest?

Very few people judge impartially, and no one does it all the time. This is called the "He's such a nice boy!" argument.

Andrew1975 wrote:You say thing like I don't know what it's like. I know exactly what it's like. You are not a special snowflake. Everybody on the planet has been bullied at one point or the other. Most people figure out how to deal with it. It is pretty simple, you make it not worth their effort or enjoyable.

This shows you don't know. Most people will never be bullied in a sense that deserves mention. Most people will be picked on at some point, or made fun of but very few kids are truely subjected to years of constant ongoing harassment. There were only two others in my school other than me.

You are not asking for simple human decency. You are asking for random strangers who have no involvement with the situation to stand up for you.

How a student body treats its own members is reflective of itself. They're hardly uninvolved.

This is highly unlikely.

Probably the 4th sadest part of the whole thing.

You are asking teacher to risk loosing their jobs.

I'm asking for society to step up and change the way it deals with the problem.

You are asking tax payers to spend money on security.

Actually I do think more money needs to go into education but for more extensive reasons. I've never really been able to grasp why education budgets are so easy for government to cut. I would think tax payers would care about that a lot more than a lot of things

These people are not treating you like less than a human, they are treating you exactly how they treat all humans.

No they aren't. I was one of only three people in my entire undergraduate experience who suffered real abuse. No one else did.

What you are asking for is someone to step in and save you.

I'm asking for society to step up and refuse to allow people to be treated that way. We don't accept it as acceptable behavior among adults, why is it acceptable among children? You don't tell rape victims to stand up for themselves. Or muder victims. Stand up for yourself can be your mantra all you want but it isn't a solution. Look what happened in the case that started this thread. Someone died and had the situation been properly addressed it may have never reached that point.

They only person treating you like less than a human are the people actually bullying you.

As evident by your own posts I am a sheep. Seems less than human to me.

All because you can't sack up and handle some bullies.

At this point "stand up for yourself" is getting old. How does one kid stand up to a group of 5? How about a 4th graded against a 6th grader? What if the bully is the popular kid who has all the friends? These problems can't be immediately resolved by "standing up for yourself." And the longer the abuse persists the harder it is to escape it. Your solution isn't a solution its an excuse you tell yourself to absolve your conscience of responsibility. You should stand up and lend a helping a hand to someone in need. You don't need to be super man. Just be their friend and stand by them and encourage them. That's not a painstaking struggle on your time and spirit.

Look I know it can feel like the whole school is against you. They aren't they just don't care. Some of them might take a snip at you here or there, but in general you are not even on these peoples radars. There is one thing a high schooler cares about and that is "ME".

Good job realizing the facts of life. Now you face the decision of either living with it or hoping that it will change and maybe even taking action to effect that change.

These people treat you like a play thing because you let them.

They do it because society allows them too and leaves vulnerable kids wide open with no recourse.

The sad thing is I always knew that if he could take that mental flailing everyday without killing himself he was tougher than most of the kids taunting him. He just either didn't realize this or believe this himself. I helped some kids in these same situations, the ones that would listen came out fine.

Now imagine if the entire student body had stepped up. The bully would be the one who was alone and the problem would likely cease to exist. The bully would stop because he wouldn't want to be alone anymore than his victim.

I mean hanging out with them was putting a target on my back again.

Aren't you proud?

There just isn't much anybody except the victim can do about it.

Bull. There's a lot people can do. It's just that no body does it. After all, who wants "target" on their back.

And again when you get out of school nobody is there to protect you from bullies. They do still exist, It's just not the same on day in and day out for years at a time, but there will always be people who try to get you to be submissive.

When you get out of school it isn't called bullying anymore. Its called felonies and misdemeanors.

mattyrm wrote:

Long story short, despite what the hippies say, violence solves everything, and you should actively encourage your kids to spread peoples noses across their face without engaging in any dialogue.

This...about a thousand times this. Heinlein said it best but I can't be bothered to find the exact quote.

Here you go.

“Anyone who clings to the historically untrue -- and -- thoroughly immoral doctrine that violence never solves anything I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler would referee. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor; and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedoms.”

Not that violence solves everything, we just tend to rule it out when we shouldn't.

. A city can't provide its own food, it has to get it from farmers. Farmers can't make their own tractors, they have to buy them.

Yes people need things that they can't provide themselves. Rarely are the given for free? The city does not get food for free and the farmer does not get the tractor for free. They pay for them. Respect is the currency of high school and it is precious, you appear broke and it's a rare person who is going to spend their currency for you when you don't even show the self worth to defend yourself. There are better people to spend it on.

This shows you don't know. Most people will never be bullied in a sense that deserves mention. Most people will be picked on at some point, or made fun of but very few kids are truely subjected to years of constant ongoing harassment. There were only two others in my school other than me.

Right, because most people learn to deal with it like myself and some of the other posters have suggested. If you don't deal with it it only gets worse.

How a student body treats its own members is reflective of itself. They're hardly uninvolved.

Grade school and highschool students could care less about that. They are the most self centered people on the face of the planet. Asking them to stand up for someone who won't do it for themselves is like asking a thousand cats to share the same dream.

I'm asking for society to step up and change the way it deals with the problem.

Instead of stepping up and changing the way you deal with the problem.

No they aren't. I was one of only three people in my entire undergraduate experience who suffered real abuse. No one else did.

But you wouldn't have if you had chinned a few more people

As evident by your own posts I am a sheep. Seems less than human to me.

I'm trying to help by telling you the best way to solve this problem and shed this victim mentality you have.

At this point "stand up for yourself" is getting old. How does one kid stand up to a group of 5? How about a 4th graded against a 6th grader? What if the bully is the popular kid who has all the friends? These problems can't be immediately resolved by "standing up for yourself." And the longer the abuse persists the harder it is to escape it. Your solution isn't a solution its an excuse you tell yourself to absolve your conscience of responsibility. You should stand up and lend a helping a hand to someone in need. You don't need to be super man. Just be their friend and stand by them and encourage them. That's not a painstaking struggle on your time and spirit.

Why would I be a friend to someones who's own actions reek of self worthlessness. If you don't see the worth in standing up for yourself I find it hard to believe that anyone else should, especially someone that doesn't know you. Again I have stepped up for people, but I can't be everywhere for everyone, you have to do it yourself. Yes there were people I didn't help too, F them, I'm not their superman! After awhile you get sick of helping people that you know full well can do it for themselves.

Good job realizing the facts of life. Now you face the decision of either living with it or hoping that it will change and maybe even taking action to effect that change.

Isn't this advice you you should be taking yourself?

They do it because society allows them too and leaves vulnerable kids wide open with no recourse.

Again what is society supposed to do here? Jump every time someone calls you a name. Schools have counselors, there are programs to help the situation. Take advantage of them. For you to accuse society of callousness every time a kid gets bullied is unfair and unrealistic. We don't live in happy pony land. People have their own lives to deal with.

Now imagine if the entire student body had stepped up. The bully would be the one who was alone and the problem would likely cease to exist. The bully would stop because he wouldn't want to be alone anymore than his victim.

I would have to imagine it because I have never seen it, because it is never going to happen, its a complete fantasy, it might happen in the movies once in awhile, but I've seen monkeys jump out of peoples butts in movies too. What I don't have to imagine is the look on a surprised bullies face when someone stands up to him, that I have seen many times.

Aren't you proud?

Yes. Yes I am. Proud that I learned that I don't have to be a victim everyday. Proud that I taught other people how not to be victims too.

Bull. There's a lot people can do. It's just that no body does it. After all, who wants "target" on their back.

Yes because the realized this is not some fantasy world. Nobody wants to be a target, they don't want to associate with someone who's inaction has made them a target.

When you get out of school it isn't called bullying anymore. Its called felonies and misdemeanors.

This is exactly the kind of response you get from people that are always looking for someone else to help them. Cops, and the courts? For real? You are gonna find that they are really very helpful. They will never be around when something is actually happening.

No it's not. I mean it can be, sure. Bullies exist in many varieties, physical, emotional, financial the list goes on. There will always be people that try to get you to submit and or abuse you, spouses, bosses, superiors, clients and yes even your friends. I'm not kidding when I say it never ends. Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's not. Do you think there is always going to be a cop or a witness around, because there isn't. Do you think that what they do every time is even illegal...because it's not.


Look I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees. But that is your choice. I find the easiest think to do is when anybody pulls any kind of cuteness with me is to nip in in the bud. If that means chinning someone every once in a while than so be it. It rarely take more than the threat. Just be very smart about it.

Your experiences may very.

Andrew1975 wrote:
But you wouldn't have if you had chinned a few more people

I'll bet that if most people chinned me, after having been bullied, they would regret it.

Sometimes, hitting the other person only makes it worse.

Andrew1975 wrote:Right, because most people learn to deal with it like myself and some of the other posters have suggested. If you don't deal with it it only gets worse.

If only children were as blessed with knowledge as we are.

Grade school and highschool students could care less about that. They are the most self centered people on the face of the planet.

Congratulations on realizing the obvious. Now, do we accept it or do something about it?

Asking them to stand up for someone who won't do it for themselves is like asking a thousand cats to share the same dream.

Do cats dream of electric sheep?

Instead of stepping up and changing the way you deal with the problem.

Have you ever stopped to wonder that maybe the problem can't be solved by one person who is completely alone? Again look at the case that started this thread. That's wht your solution led too.

But you wouldn't have if you had chinned a few more people

Blame the victim.

I'm trying to help by telling you the best way to solve this problem and shed this victim mentality you have.

You're not trying to help me. You're absolving yourself of all responsibility by saying it isn't your problem. Societies do not function because people can do it themselves. The selfishness of society is probably one of the biggest barriers to human progress.

Why would I be a friend to someones who's own actions reek of self worthlessness.

Blame the victim.

If you don't see the worth in standing up for yourself I find it hard to believe that anyone else should, especially someone that doesn't know you.

Is it that they won't or that they can't?

Again what is society supposed to do here? Jump every time someone calls you a name.

I've been over that. I'm not talking about name calling.

Schools have counselors, there are programs to help the situation.

We've been over that too. Go to adults and bullying gets worse because the adults don't do anything.

For you to accuse society of callousness every time a kid gets bullied is unfair and unrealistic.

I didn't realize accusing society of doing nothing when it does nothing was unfair and unrealistic. How shocking. Especially since your entire position basically hinges on society not doing anything being perfectly acceptable.Kitty Genovese would love you.

We don't live in happy pony land. People have their own lives to deal with.

Your knowledge of the facts of life continues to amaze me. Obviously you have no interest in actual discussion as the only words coming out of posts amount to "life sucks" and "blame the victim" How astute of you. We're all well informed now.

This is exactly the kind of response you get from people that are always looking for someone else to help them. Cops, and the courts? For real? You are gonna find that they are really very helpful. They will never be around when something is actually happening.

Everyone who has ever been robbed, assaulted, raped, and murdered would be your best friends.

Look I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

You should give the speeches at the end of action films.

Your experiences may very.

Funny coming from someone advocating one solution fits all. The difference between you and me is that we both recognize how things are but you utterly refuse to comprehend me when I say they should be different. I'm not talking about something realistically happening. It can happen and it should, but I don't expect it too. There are to many people in the world who would rather shrug off all responsibility and let others suffer to effect such change. We can't even get money into the education system, let alone resolve all the social problems that take place under its roof.

I'll bet that if most people chinned me, after having been bullied, they would regret it.

Sometimes, hitting the other person only makes it worse.

Most bullies think that way. You can say whatever you want. Sure there were instances where I took a beating, but I was pretty used to it, I had 4 older brothers and played lots of sports. I learned early that pain is not as painful as fear. But those bullies never touched me again. They learned there were easier targets.

Congratulations on realizing the obvious. Now, do we accept it or do something about it?

Like what, you want drum circles? Tell me please, since you seam to think that society is either too inept or too stupid to have figured this out yet, but their must be an answer, so what is it?

Do cats dream of electric sheep?

No they dream of devouring anything smaller then them much like high schoolers.

Have you ever stopped to wonder that maybe the problem can't be solved by one person who is completely alone?

No, because I've seen it be solved by people that are all alone. YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY LONER THAT EVER EXISTED!

Again look at the case that started this thread. That's wht your solution led too.

Yes, it did. And how often does that situation actually happen? Bulling rarely is fatal. Your solutions lead to ......wait you don't have any! Well no you have one. 1. Someone is bullied. 2. ( ) 3. This makes everybody stand up for the picked on kid. 4. They buy him ice cream, Birds sing. 5. PROFIT

Blame the victim.

Blame cruel society. Yawn

You're absolving yourself of all responsibility by saying it isn't your problem. Societies do not function because people can do it themselves. The selfishness of society is probably one of the biggest barriers to human progress.

No, as I've told you I feel no responsibility to help those who won't help themselves when they are perfectly capable. I'll help cripples, I have even helped the Lazy and cowardly at times. But I am not crazy enough to believe that most people will, or want to, or should have to.

Blame the victim.

Blame everybody but yourself. I mean you have literally blamed everybody but yourself. At what point do you look in the mirror? The "Blame the victim" rant has never effected me in the slightest, there are no unwilling victims especially in a repeated long term abuse like this.

We've been over that too. Go to adults and bullying gets worse because the adults don't do anything.

"The adults can't help me, I can't help me, no body can help me. It must be societies fault" (YAWN)
So again, you say my answer is not an option when you don't have a better one, or one at all.

I didn't realize accusing society of doing nothing when it does nothing was unfair and unrealistic. How shocking. Especially since your entire position basically hinges on society not doing anything being perfectly acceptable.Kitty Genovese would love you.

No what I'm saying, is when you have things like Kitty Genovese where she had no chance to change her situations going on, maybe people should be more concerned about that than some kids getting swirlies and wedgies or got forbid getting a black eye or a bloody nose, who actually has the ability to do something about it, but won't because oh his "poor me" mentality. Seriously, your self centeredness is beyond the pail. Every one should stand up for you, the world owes you a easy life and now you compare yourself to a poor girl that was bumrushed in NY. She had no ability to do anything about her situation, you do, or did, you just don't.

Your knowledge of the facts of life continues to amaze me. Obviously you have no interest in actual discussion as the only words coming out of posts amount to "life sucks" and "blame the victim" How astute of you. We're all well informed now.

All you can do is cry and say the world is unfair, people should do something. I have no idea what, but they should. I never said life sucks. I said it can be cruel and it can, especially when you don't have ownership of your own life. But it's also what you make of it. I personally think life is pretty great right now. But that is because I learned to stop blaming everyone else for what happened to me and took responsibility for myself. I will not be a victim! I will never be a victim, because I refuse to be victimized.

Everyone who has ever been robbed, assaulted, raped, and murdered would be your best friends.

They would be if they counted on themselves more than society to protect them. You know that "bad guys" always wait until the "good guys" are gone right?

Funny coming from someone advocating one solution fits all.

No it doesn't, I'll admit that, it works pretty often though. It works better than anything you have suggested, and it works a hell of a lot better than cursing GOD and society.

The difference between you and me is that we both recognize how things are but you utterly refuse to comprehend me when I say they should be different.

No, I just don't agree with you 1. beacuse there is nothing that can be done that isn't already. 2. Some people need a kick in the ass to get their gak in gear and realize that some things must be earned.

I'm not talking about something realistically happening.

We agree on this, because society is not magically going to change for you. Those that appear weak have always been picked on and they always will. The solution is don't appear weak, It is not change all of society!

It can happen and it should

No it can't. It just can't. Not in reality it can't sorry. Should it is debatable? I've read a lot of biographies about people who's lives have drastically changed for the positive because they were bullied and learned to stand up to it. It is an epiphany and a life changing moment. I would not rob the world of that experience. In many way it is vital.

but I don't expect it too.

Good, because it won't. You should want your situation to change, enough to actually do something about it.

There are to many people in the world who would rather shrug off all responsibility and let others suffer to effect such change.

Again you expect everyone else to be responsible for you. Every body on the face of the planet should change because of as you said 3 in 500 kids in your school. Life should stop for the rest of the world until we figure out how to make everyone get along is essentially what you are saying. You have no answers, no solution and refute every other solution offered to you.

We can't even get money into the education system, let alone resolve all the social problems that take place under its roof.

And yet they need to find more ways to limit bullying when that are already doing everything that can be done.

Bullies only stopped bullying me when I punched one in the face

So my solution did work for you actually. I don't get why you are fighting it.

Look I don't think I'm going to respond to this anymore. I've said my peace. You will never admit that this is the best solution on a personal basis. I think that is sad. I don't like to think of people being abused when they don't have to.

You can wish for the world to change in one hand and gak in the other and let me know which one fills up first. On the list of things in this world that need fixing, bullying has been already addressed as much as is humanly possible so it is way down on the list. Good luck.

Andrew1975 wrote: You can say whatever you want.

Yep, I can. So can you. Great thing about the internet.

Lots of people that aren't bullies seem to think that standing up to bullies is easy, or that bullies can't fight.

dogma wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote: You can say whatever you want.

Yep, I can. So can you. Great thing about the internet.

Lots of people that aren't bullies seem to think that standing up to bullies is easy, or that bullies can't fight.

It is easy, and while most bullies are decent fighters, standing up to them is almost always better then not. I mean if you are going to get beat. might as well do it on your terms.

People generally will back off from bothering people that they know will hit them back. True, a "bully" might win the fight, but eventually they will probably tire of the effort and move on to a softer target.

Getting punched hurts.

Getting punched hurts.

It's not nearly as painful as taking the mental and physical beating that bullying provides on a daily bases though. In a week you will not feel that punch, the scars from bullying, especially if you do not deal with it, last a lifetime. I run into people that are still wrecks, not standing up became a habit for them. It will haunt them all their life and fear will affect every decision that they make.

I have a bridge that I need to buy a particular product to maintain, entirely because a dude took a hockey stick (The flimsy crap you use in gym, thankfully.) to my face.

Thanks mom, for working for an insurance company.

Monster Rain wrote:People generally will back off from bothering people that they know will hit them back. True, a "bully" might win the fight, but eventually they will probably tire of the effort and move on to a softer target.

Getting punched hurts.

The kid in the story that kicked off this whole shebang realized if you bring a knife to the fist fight you help even the odds.

It's Kharma. I still get angry when people were protesting that Gaddafi had his human rights violated when he was torn apart by the crowd when he was found. What about the Human rights violations of the people, he tortured, killed, mutilated, allowed to be raped and brutalized. You reap what you sow.

Andrew1975 wrote:Most bullies think that way. You can say whatever you want. Sure there were instances where I took a beating, but I was pretty used to it, I had 4 older brothers and played lots of sports. I learned early that pain is not as painful as fear. But those bullies never touched me again. They learned there were easier targets.

And if they don't?

Like what, you want drum circles? Tell me please, since you seam to think that society is either too inept or too stupid to have figured this out yet, but their must be an answer, so what is it?

I guess you'd rather keep chanting your mantra than read. I have told what can and should be done. And it can be done. The problem is no one has the balls to do it.

No, because I've seen it be solved by people that are all alone. YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY LONER THAT EVER EXISTED!

How astute of you. Great way to avoid answering the question.

, it did. And how often does that situation actually happen? Bulling rarely is fatal. Your solutions lead to ......wait you don't have any! Well no you have one. 1. Someone is bullied. 2. ( ) 3. This makes everybody stand up for the picked on kid. 4. They buy him ice cream, Birds sing. 5. PROFIT

I take it you don't watch the news. At least once a month a story pops up of someone committing suicide due to bullying. And congrats again on failing to recognize anything I say. I see your mantra is well plugged into your ears.

No, as I've told you I feel no responsibility to help those who won't help themselves when they are perfectly capable.

Some of them can't. And your lack of a sense of responsibility is why this problem persists. People like you are why children die in this situation, not the children themselves. Kitty Genovese still loves you by the way.

I'll help cripples, I have even helped the Lazy and cowardly at times. But I am not crazy enough to believe that most people will, or want to, or should have to.

The can but they won't and they should.

Blame everybody but yourself. I mean you have literally blamed everybody but yourself.

Thank you for your assumptions. You obviously have never read anything about victimization. Most people only blame themselves.

At what point do you look in the mirror?

Et tu Brutus?

The "Blame the victim" rant has never effected me in the slightest, there are no unwilling victims especially in a repeated long term abuse like this.

Then you really don't understand bullying oh might understander of all.

"The adults can't help me, I can't help me, no body can help me. It must be societies fault" (YAWN)
So again, you say my answer is not an option when you don't have a better one, or one at all.

I suppose its easy to say I don't when you don't want to hear it.

No what I'm saying, is when you have things like Kitty Genovese where she had no chance to change her situations going on, maybe people should be more concerned

This is the double standard that frustrates me to no end. What's the difference? By your position she should have "stood up for herself." She's a sheep and she's weak and pathetic and deserved what she got. But you can't actually say that because you're a coward like the rest of society who would rather do nothing. She's a "special" case and saying she deserved it isn't PC.

There is no difference between what happened to Kitty Genovese and what happens to bullied kids every day. They are alone and tortured and everyone knows it and no one does anything because they should "stand up for themselves."

Seriously, your self centeredness is beyond the pail.

Mirror oh great lord of responsibility and awesomeness?

Every one should stand up for you,

Yeah everyone should stand up for each other. There'd be fewer dead kids if people would stop watching from the side lines saying "it's not my responsibility."

the world owes you a easy life

I see your ability to draw inference is running high and well. If I want society to step up and effect change I must want it all handed to everyone on a silver platter. When did I ask society to solve everyone's problems? But I do see your much better at spewing your mantras and rhetoric than actually discussing the issue so I guess its expected.

All you can do is cry and say the world is unfair, people should do something.

Because they should.

I said it can be cruel and it can, especially when you don't have ownership of your own life.

No one has full ownership of their own life. We live with other people and their choices effect ours. Go live in the middle of no where if you want to "own your life." The rest of use live in the real world and in the real world I can't control what person X does that may or may not effect me and the choices of person Y can limit how I respond to X. People do not live in bubbles where they have absolute control over their lives.

I will not be a victim! I will never be a victim, because I refuse to be victimized.

Can we convert that to an speech to be used at the end of the next Home Alone movie?

They would be if they counted on themselves more than society to protect them. You know that "bad guys" always wait until the "good guys" are gone right?

Then I suppose we can just do away with all those pesky laws. They're not effecting anything meaningful after all!

No it doesn't, I'll admit that, it works pretty often though. It works better than anything you have suggested,

And for the people it doesn't work for? What choices do they have?

and it works a hell of a lot better than cursing GOD and society.

Hey now. I never curse god. He could smite me!

The difference between you and me is that we both recognize how things are but you utterly refuse to comprehend me when I say they should be different.

1. beacuse there is nothing that can be done that isn't already.

There is and I've said it multiple times. The difference lies in my willingness to vizualize what should be don't but won't be done while all you can say is "blame the victim" and "stand up for yourself" and "stop being a crybaby." All very helpful and insightful suggestion.

It is not change all of society!

Who asked to change all of society? I want society to recognize a gross hypocrisy that allows people to be abused for years. One that produces emotional and mental disorders and death. People know it exists. They know they can do something to stop it. But it's not their "responsibility."

I would not rob the world of that experience. In many way it is vital.

Tell that to Eric Harris, Pheobe Prince, and Jorge. They've all discovered your "vital" life lesson and the world is so much improved for it.

Good, because it won't. You should want your situation to change, enough to actually do something about it.

I'm just going to schedule a sit down with you and the kids to share you're life's knowledge. Being bullied is a horrible experience. Idolize it all you want but all you do is what everyone else does. Let the bully have his way while another person suffers. I would never wish what I experienced on anyone and children shouldn't have to experience it. They wouldn't if people would grow some balls and accept that when they see something wrong they do have a responsibility to stop it.

Again you expect everyone else to be responsible for you.

You do listen well. I want everyone to be responsible for each other.

Every body on the face of the planet should change because of as you said 3 in 500 kids in your school

Everybody on the face of the planet should change because it will make the world better, but that's asking too much. People would rather live in their ignorance.

Life should stop for the rest of the world until we figure out how to make everyone get along is essentially what you are saying.

Putting words in people's mouths is fun!

refute every other solution offered to you.

That would be you sir. Your only solution is "stand up for yourself." You even admit it doesn't always work but you have no solution to help those it doesn't work for. You can draw inferences about me all you want but your grand standing is absurd and belies the fact that you have no solution. All your posts are and putting words in my mouth and drawing assumptions that I must want society to do every thing for me when I should just "stand up for myself." Stand up for yourself isn't a solution its the mantra you preach so you have an excuse to keep being a bystander.

And yet they need to find more ways to limit bullying when that are already doing everything that can be done.

No they aren't. Getting rid of that stupid zero tolerance crap is a good start and changing laws so that teachers can actually intervene is a good step two (and give schools money for better toilet paper, we can just pork barrel it in there).

So my solution did work for you actually. I don't get why you are fighting it.

Because it doesn't work for everyone and it didn't solve all the problems associated with bullying (suspended for "zero" tolerance remember?). I should have never been in that situation in the first place.

I don't like to think of people being abused when they don't have to.

...

Wall of text makes baby Jebus cry.

Monster Rain wrote:People generally will back off from bothering people that they know will hit them back. True, a "bully" might win the fight, but eventually they will probably tire of the effort and move on to a softer target.

Getting punched hurts.

Yeah that was my point. I can see both sides of the argument and I can agree with some of what lord and dogma are saying, but I definitely see things more like Andrew. Ultimately were talking about cowards here, kids, not grizzled veterans or mobsters who cut peoples toes off with pliers. Bullies will always take the easy way out, and there is always someone softer to pick on.

There was a midget in my school called Eddie Marsh, and even though he was small and weak he didn't get bullied because he was game as a pebble. You might beat him up, but the little gak was aggressive and he would always try to hurt you and I think that's the point. If everyone was like him then perhaps he would get bullied regardless, but they aren't and there is always someone who is willing to take all the abuse with zero risk to you.

Even if your only worried about hurting your hand on the blokes head, it makes sense to take lunch money.off the kid who won't fight back at all!

Bullying a smaller guy who is willing to fight is ultimately lose:lose. Either the bully wins, and gains no cred because he's bigger/tougher/meaner and should win, or the bully loses and the guy that was bullied gets huge cred and the bully loses it all.

Bullying will always fail when the small guy is simply willing to take more pain. That assumes a relatively even field, however, if the bully's position is indomitable, like when he and his posse outnumber the bullied by some impossible amount, then there's no real risk to the bully's status.

That's when the bullied have to get creative.