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LordofHats wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:It does teach an important life lesson though. You need to learn to stand up for yourself or you will be a target all your life.

One would think I'd not get suspended (and subsequently grounded) for doing what I was supposed to do from this apparent life lesson.

You can learn to stand up for yourself in more productive and less harmful ways. Being bullied has no practical value to me, and it certainly isn't teaching the bullies to be acceptable members of society. The worst part is that standing up for myself gets me punished (and depending on the bully it doesn't work) so I get left hung out to dry as the victim while my abuser suffers no ill effects from his actions.

Does that teach a lesson? Maybe. But that's a cruel and cold way to teach someone a lesson.

Another lesson then, sometimes life is cruel and cold, sometimes it's random and unfair. Sorry! lesson learned? No here is a hint, the physical bullies that you deal with in life are actually much easier to deal with than many situations in the future.

You can go and take crap from a bully everyday and make yourself a target to all the other bullies......or you can stand up and not be bullied. If you have a reputation for cowing everybody will try to take advantage of that one way or the other for the rest of your life. You can not tell me you never saw "the victim" the kid that walks down the hall head down.........he is an instant target....to EVERYBODY, not just bullies, but everyone that has a chip on their shoulder for one reason or another.

Of course you are still gonna get punished if there is actually a physical confrontation! But I've repeatedly seen administrators give very light punishment to kids that stand up to known bullies, the bullies usually get the brunt of the punishment. My whole point however is that in most situations if you do not cow to a bully, or attract their attention by acting sheepish in general they will usually leave you alone. The second you back down from them they are on top of you. I never advocated attacking the bully or confronting the bully, but you should stand up for yourself and usually they will move on to the next victim.

Almost invariably every time a random bully has come up to me, all I have ever had to do was stand my ground and act like I am confident. The idea is to not make it worth their time.

That being said there is a difference from random bullies to people that actually have a real grievance with you. That is a fight not bullying.

Bullies will never be acceptable members of society, in many ways it is why they are bullies.

Orlanth wrote:First this was a school fight, picked on the bus. Not a death struggle in a ghetto.

Clearly, it turned out to be a death struggle (yes, I'm aware that Saavedra did the escalating). And furthermore, this sort of thing isn't terribly uncommon. I made no mention of ghettos, so I'm not sure where you got that from. "School fights" are not some sort of playful pillow fight here in the states.

Orlanth wrote:Second Nuno had fought other kids before, including Saavedra, he did not have a lethal reputation.
Third it was with plenty of witnesses present, anyone who killed or seriously injured anyone would be arrested, as with what happened. Bullies usually dont cross the line, Nuno did not appear to be any exception, except as painted by the defence attorney. To check out what his school rep was like (which would be out as much as Saavedra had to go on) go to Youtube and type in Dylan Nuno.

So I ask again, your expectation for Saavedra is to take the beating and hope Nuno's "non-lethal" reputation holds true?

I should probably ask, do you agree that Saavedra was assaulted by his bully?

And out of curiosity, do you have an indicator about who was present as a witness?

IcyCool wrote:Also Saavedra's getting away once was indicated by the fact he left the bus early. He turned around pretty much as soon as Nuno attacked him, with the knife. Its all good word play by the defense attorney, as that still looks like relocation not a retreat.

The article indicates that Saavedra got off the bus a stop early, was followed by Nuno and several students, was punched in the back of the head by Nuno, and then attempted to escape. Are we reading the same article or do you have a different source you are pulling your information from? Preferably, if someone can provide a link to the court documents that would be ideal.

From what I've read, the judge seems to have clearly ruled correctly. Saavedra did not break the law.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:[You forgot option 3
Your friends, cousins, or brothers intervene delivering the asswhopping of a lifetime to your attempted assailant, then taking you home to beat your ass too for being such a pussy.

You are unlikely to have been the target of consistent bullying if you have that many people watching your back.

LordofHats wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:It does teach an important life lesson though. You need to learn to stand up for yourself or you will be a target all your life.

One would think I'd not get suspended (and subsequently grounded) for doing what I was supposed to do from this apparent life lesson.

You can learn to stand up for yourself in more productive and less harmful ways. Being bullied has no practical value to me, and it certainly isn't teaching the bullies to be acceptable members of society. The worst part is that standing up for myself gets me punished (and depending on the bully it doesn't work) so I get left hung out to dry as the victim while my abuser suffers no ill effects from his actions.

Does that teach a lesson? Maybe. But that's a cruel and cold way to teach someone a lesson.

Thats why you catch them outside of school, preferably with no witnesses.

Orlanth wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:

Nuno didnt think he was in a 'real' fight either

If you read the article that was lniked in the OP, not just the quote, you'll find that Nuno followed the kid of the boss with several other guys in tow, and clobbered him across the back of the head first, before he and his mates chased the kid down.

You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

Avatar 720 wrote:
If he didn't expect a 'real' fight, why did he assault the kid from behind and deny him the chance to escape?

That doesnt mean that it was anything other than a usual kids tussle. Also attacking someone from behind does not deny their escape unless you grab their legs triop them or disable them.
It profited the defence attorney to paint a picture where Saavedra was in deadly danger. However Nuno didn't appear to have that type of rep and Saavedra knew him well enough to know that.

Avatar 720 wrote:
He showed the intent to cause physical harm (the advertisement of the fight by other students also shows premeditation) and Saavedro was forced to retaliate once he was cornered. The fact he showed his knife to people on the bus, but used it only when he had first been assaulted and had his escape routes blocked proves only that he was prepared to defend himself in dire circumstances.

First he wasn't cornered, secondly he concealed the knife from Nuno but showed it off to others. Looks like he was going to spring it on Nuno not scare him off with it. Nuno expressed suprise that her was attacked with a knife and himself attempted to disengage, according to eye witnesses.

Avatar 720 wrote:
If you want, though, you can go and fight Nuno's case for him seeing as though his lawyers have declined to pursue an appeal; although if they can't see any point in appealing i'm not very confident that you'll get far in it.

Nuno's lawyers, by that you mean state prosecutors. They fought the case once out of civic duty, they wont appeal.

I'm not confused with another case, simply by being with Nuno the other people that followed him off the bus were participants in the assault and subsequent chasing down of Saavedra, albeit indirectly. It is very possible that Nuno's mates simply caged Saavedra in whilst Nuno did the dirty work, Saavedra was most likely in a state of panic caused due to being chased by multiple assailants, one of which had already physically assaulted him and very likely meant him further physical harm.

A 'usual kids tussle' involves punching someone across the back of the head and chasing them down? I also never said attacking from behind denies escape, I said he attacked from behind AND denied escape, which is evident in how witnesses report that Saavedra 'attempted' to escape, ultimately meaning he failed to get away. Whether or not Nuno had the reputation is immaterial, he attacked Saavedra in cold blood. Would you be willing to risk great amounts of bodily harm if you were attacked and chased down by someone you didn't think would beat you up? Would you even be in a fit state to think logically if you were a 14 year old in a panicked state of 'Fight or Flight', and had just been attacked from behind?

I don't doubt that there are myriad examples of even grown humans acting illogically when driven by some natural urge. People kill their lovers if they cheat on them, which is illogical when you think about it, but obviously the killer wasn't in a fit state to do that. People kill others out of jealousy, again, illogical when you think about it, not when you're blinded by jealousy. Was Saavedra, a child of 14 with little epxerience of the world, little maturity, and going through a natural stage of change in his life that will undoubtably imbalance emotions and such, thinking logically during the attack? I seriously doubt he was capable of it with that much going on. It's one thing to be logical when you're behind a computer screen, another completely when you're running, frightened, and fearing for your life.

How do you know he wasn't cornered? Witnesses state he attempted to flee, his attempt was unsuccessful, obviously he had to be cornered or otherwise trapped. As for concealing the knife but showing it off, that too is immaterial when you take into account that his first action was flight. That to me says that it was a last resort during the fight, and was always meant as a last resort. If he wanted to spring it on Nuno, why did he get off the bus early, with Nuno, with a mind to cause harm, behind him, and only use it once he was caught? I also see nowhere in the article that Nuno attempted to flee himself, do you have further information that none of us has access to? Witnesses stated Saavedra tried to get away, perhaps you're confusing the two?

IcyCool wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.
.

True words.

I liked where Orlanth stated that police, army, and special forces know how to hold back, so the kid should have known.

Guy could win this in the court room with talk like that!

Frazzled wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.
.

True words.

Are you not aware of hooligans in England. Granted they are not "thuglife" from the hood, but they are not much better. Watch what happens surrounding a soccer match.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.
.

True words.

Are you not aware of hooligans in England. Granted they are not "thuglife" from the hood, but they are not much better. Watch what happens surrounding a soccer match.

This is a question...do soccer hooligans typically permanently injure their victims? Thats the potential here. If so, then under many states' particularly in the South, the victims can full defend themselves.

Frazzled wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.
.

True words.

Are you not aware of hooligans in England. Granted they are not "thuglife" from the hood, but they are not much better. Watch what happens surrounding a soccer match.

This is a question...do soccer hooligans typically permanently injure their victims? Thats the potential here. If so, then under many states' particularly in the South, the victims can full defend themselves.

Yes they do, but it's England. You know, the place where you can't legally defend your home, or boot squatters from your property.

Andrew1975 wrote:Another lesson then, sometimes life is cruel and cold, sometimes it's random and unfair.

I'm sure some extremists with air planes demonstrated that fairly well in 2001. Just because the world is cold and cruel doesn't mean we should tolerate children degrading other human beings into toys of their amusement.

Bullies will never be acceptable members of society, in many ways it is why they are bullies.

Its funny that you say this when your entire post is basically about bullies being an accepted element of growing up. Its sickening to me, the way we allow our children to treat other children as garbage. If a woman is walking down the street and is accosted by a group of boys, everyone is outraged because its unacceptable. What are their parents teaching them if they're behaving that way?

If a young boy walks down the street and is accosted, berated, beaten, and tortured one day after another, well that's just part of growing up. That's twisted gak and no grand life lesson you can think up will ever justify it.

LordofHats wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Another lesson then, sometimes life is cruel and cold, sometimes it's random and unfair.

I'm sure some extremists with air planes demonstrated that fairly well in 2001. Just because the world is cold and cruel doesn't mean we should tolerate children degrading other human beings into toys of their amusement.

Bullies will never be acceptable members of society, in many ways it is why they are bullies.

Its funny that you say this when your entire post is basically about bullies being an accepted element of growing up. Its sickening to me, the way we allow our children to treat other children as garbage. If a woman is walking down the street and is accosted by a group of boys, everyone is outraged because its unacceptable. What are their parents teaching them if they're behaving that way?

If a young boy walks down the street and is accosted, berated, beaten, and tortured one day after another, well that's just part of growing up. That's twisted gak and no grand life lesson you can think up will ever justify it.

No you are getting me wrong. I never said they were acceptable, I just said they were a fact of life that is never going to go away no matter how much society tries to stop it. It is however easily dealt with on an individual basis. I would never let my kid be a bully, but I would also never let him be a sheep. These are both failings of parents either way. I find being a sheep just as disgusting as I find being a bully, except that if there weren't so many sheep there would not be so many bullies.

I've said the bully got what was coming to him and that the only sentence this kid should get is counseling because he is gonna need it. What I am saying is that there is NO WAY to eradicate bullies, and they don't just magically disappear after grade school either. So you either learn to deal with them or you end up being a victim all your life.

Dreadwinter wrote:I liked where Orlanth stated that police, army, and special forces know how to hold back, so the kid should have known.

Guy could win this in the court room with talk like that!

You took a few liberties with my words to come up with that.
Must have been too busy wearing stab vests and dodging death from school bullies to learn much English at school.

I was not speaking to you alone but rather to societies attitudes towards bullying in general. At least that's my experience with how society approaches bullying, and I find it revolting.

Sheep may be sheep but they don't hurt anyone.

LordofHats wrote:I was not speaking to you alone but rather to societies attitudes towards bullying in general. At least that's my experience with how society approaches bullying, and I find it revolting.

Sheep may be sheep but they don't hurt anyone.

Well about that...

LordofHats wrote:I was not speaking to you alone but rather to societies attitudes towards bullying in general. At least that's my experience with how society approaches bullying, and I find it revolting.

Sheep may be sheep but they don't hurt anyone.

They do hurt. In many ways the constantly hurt themselves and find ways to blame other people for their own shortcomings, either that or when they do find that one sheep that is even smaller then them, they abuse the crap out of it. I've seen this repeatedly. In many cases the first place they go for help, no matter what the obstacle is, is other people, instead of even attempting to try to resolve situations on their own. Low self esteem and self worth are an abusive downward spiral that really takes so little to get out of.

The other problem with sheep is they flock to those that have learned this life lesson. Do you know how many times I've almost got into a fight defending some sheep. Stand up for yourselves, don't drag me into this. Even worse is the sheep with a big mouth, that will try to hide behind their friend. I remember the look in a friends eye when I told him to handle it himself, he started it.....ABJECT FEAR.

People with a healthy amount of self esteem don't pick on people that are smaller than them, they even defend the sheep. That should be the goal, healthy self esteem. What is not acceptable is creating a society where being a sheep is just completly acceptable. Life is hard sometimes, and the only person you can ever really count on is yourself. I don't need to be surrounded by a bunch of over protected and coddled cry babies. The worst people in the world are sheep that feel validated. I mean the only time they will ever stand for anything is the right to be a sheep? WTF

Sheep are a cause of many of societies i'lls. In many ways I feel that people that do not stand up, get what they deserve. The problem is that in society now I am surrounded by a bunch of sheep that won't stand up for anything and expect everything to just be handed to them because they are weak. Get a spine people!

Andrew1975 wrote:

LordofHats wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:Another lesson then, sometimes life is cruel and cold, sometimes it's random and unfair.

I'm sure some extremists with air planes demonstrated that fairly well in 2001. Just because the world is cold and cruel doesn't mean we should tolerate children degrading other human beings into toys of their amusement.

Bullies will never be acceptable members of society, in many ways it is why they are bullies.

Its funny that you say this when your entire post is basically about bullies being an accepted element of growing up. Its sickening to me, the way we allow our children to treat other children as garbage. If a woman is walking down the street and is accosted by a group of boys, everyone is outraged because its unacceptable. What are their parents teaching them if they're behaving that way?

If a young boy walks down the street and is accosted, berated, beaten, and tortured one day after another, well that's just part of growing up. That's twisted gak and no grand life lesson you can think up will ever justify it.

... if there weren't so many sheep there would not be so many bullies.

The victim has been blamed!!!

The victim has been blamed!!!

The battle cry of all sheep has been posted.

Andrew1975 wrote:

The victim has been blamed!!!

The battle cry of all sheep has been posted.

Also the battle cry of righteous people who oppose bullies and criminals of all types.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:

The victim has been blamed!!!

The battle cry of all sheep has been posted.

Also the battle cry of righteous people who oppose bullies and criminals of all types.

No that's SPOOOOOON!

BLAME THE VICTIM is usually used by those that depend of righteous people, to do what they should be doing for themselves.

Andrew1975 wrote:

The victim has been blamed!!!

The battle cry of all sheep has been posted.

Just because you get bullied doesn't make you timid or a sheep. I think that's an unfair assumption you are making. Bullied kids become isolated by their bullies. Do you want to hang out with someone whose always being made fun of and possible beaten? If anyone is sheep, its the people who stand by and do nothing while other human beings are victimized.

You're more sheepish with your position than anyone who has ever been bullied. If parents and student bodies got off their collective butts and did something when they saw someone being victimized there'd be fewer bullied kids. Its not as simple as the bullied kid standing up for himself/herself. Sometimes what is happening to them is made all the worse because no one will help them and everyone just tells them to suck it up. So they suck it up because they don't know what else to do and people like you tell them they're pathetic. You're the sheep walking along with life watching as it goes by and doing absolutely nothing when you see something wrong. This isn't a problem with kids who get bullied. Its a problem with a society that accepts it as normal and does nothing to help them. What can one kid do when dozens of adults and hundreds of his/her own peers appear to be against them?

The sheep involved in this case turned out to have some claws.

Orlanth wrote:
Well that sums up your method of argument: more name calling, less deduction . Declaring an argument a non argument rather than explaining why logically.

I've explained why your argument is bad several times.

I start calling things bad once I've explained why they're bad, and have been met with repetition of the same point (Which is to say, "Nuh-uh!"). It saves me time.

Orlanth wrote:
Bully on bus, kids on bus announcing fight loudly. Other kid gets off at an estate. Its obvious to see what would happen.

No it isn't, and claiming that it is points to a poor grasp of prediction. You may believe that to be the most likely outcome, but claiming that its the only possible outcome is simply being obtuse, or claiming the capacity to know future events.

Orlanth wrote:
Two places? If he got off then got on a bus and got off again it would change things.

I misread the article, though that doesn't change my opinion of events, which is: there isn't enough information to draw any sort of conclusion.

Orlanth wrote:
So he didn't intend to continue trying to walk away. Thankyou.

12 stabs means he intended to stab, when that intention took hold is another question.

One can move from "not stab" to "stab" in a very short period of time.

Orlanth wrote:
At leisure with friends, or a bus on the way to a fight?

Both, actually. Its amazing how 6.6 inch blade deters mugging.

Andrew1975 wrote:

The victim has been blamed!!!

The battle cry of all sheep has been posted.

BAAAAAAAA!!!

Do you want to hang out with someone whose always being made fun of and possible beaten? If anyone is sheep, its the people who stand by and do nothing while other human beings are victimized.

No, sure don't. Why would I? All you will do is come to me whenever you have a problem, and when I have a problem you will run and hide. I will certainly be friends with someone that will stand their ground in the face of adversity though.

It's the difference between giving someone a fish or a fishing pole. I've shown plenty of people how to do this, it changes their entire life. It is not acceptable to live your life in constant fear. Yes it is a leap of faith kind of thing and it is scary, but the pay off is just as big.

You seam to believe that there is a way to stop bullying....There isn't. There is no amount of coddling and sheltering you can do to stop this, no amount of security can stop it. No law has stopped it, no policy has topped it, no social construct on the face of the planet can stop it from happening. School have cameras and hall monitors and even armed guards.....has that stopped it? If a bully has really set his target on you, the thing that will change his mind is you.

American society more than any other has tried to stop it, the only thing that could possibly work is to have a full time bodyguard FOR EVERY CHILD. Should society provide this for you? What will you want next? You blame te teachers and admin, what are they really supposed to do? They are teacher, not bodyguards. Have you seen what parents will do if a teacher touches their kid?

What happens when you are done with school? Look jerks are everywhere and every age. This problem does not just magically go away after school, you will deal with this situation for the rest of your life if you don't learn how to handle it now. It is much better to confront it now!

I'm not defending Bullies believe me. I weighed 85lb my freshman year of high school at an all boys school partially in the ghetto. I know about bullies. When I had a problem with it I asked my brother and he told me how to handle it.

"You know all those beatings I used to give you? Much worse than anything any bully at school is gonna give you." The key was that I would probably never really get into the fight if I just stood up. If I did take a beating they are rarely fatal or even damaging. Yes they can hurt, but not as much as getting bullied and picked on every day. Rarely will you get into a fight with a random bully more than once because they learn you are no longer an easy target, which is all they want. All my friends got picked on in high school until I told them this. The bullies just found another group of kids to pick on eventually.

Here is the thing about a fight, even if you win, you usually sustain some damage, and no one wants to take the chance to look bad by loosing to the perceived geek/nerd/weakling/freak...whatever, so they WILL go to someone else.

Orlanth wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:I liked where Orlanth stated that police, army, and special forces know how to hold back, so the kid should have known.

Guy could win this in the court room with talk like that!

You took a few liberties with my words to come up with that.
Must have been too busy wearing stab vests and dodging death from school bullies to learn much English at school.

Sorry, you didn't say special forces.....

Orlanth wrote:As for how I know one can and should have the ability to show restraint even in danger. I know this from knowing local police, people in the armed forces and shadier types.

..... but where did I take liberties?

LordofHats wrote:
Just because you get bullied doesn't make you timid or a sheep. I think that's an unfair assumption you are making. Bullied kids become isolated by their bullies. Do you want to hang out with someone whose always being made fun of and possible beaten?

There is truth in this, I got bullied more after kicking the crap out of one bully because said bully was upset, and his friends were too.

This was solved by kicking the crap out of some of his friends, but the point still stands.

LordofHats wrote:
If anyone is sheep, its the people who stand by and do nothing while other human beings are victimized.

I don't know about that. I like my skin, and there are very few people I would endanger it for.

Where did all this farm animal talk come from?

I don't think that saying that you're going to have to deal with a dill weed on occasion, which is what I interpret Andrew 1975's main point to be, means you approve of bullying.

<OT post deleted; please stay on topic, and avoid unnecessarily inflammatory posts>

Andrew1975 wrote:No, sure don't. Why would I? All you will do is come to me whenever you have a problem, and when I have a problem you will run and hide. I will certainly be friends with someone that will stand their ground in the face of adversity though.

Its nice to know you prefer a society where human beings live in bubbles and can expect no help from anyone for anything. We victimize victims more by doing nothing. They don't want you to solve all their problems. They just want you to not turn a blind eye to the situation their in. One that they cannot escape. Even when you stand up to a bully, there will be more bullies. I'm not talking about ending bullying. I'm talking about making the bullies the ones who are isolated in society. Right now, the victims are the ones who become isolated.

It's the difference between giving someone a fish or a fishing pole. I've shown plenty of people how to do this, it changes their entire life. It is not acceptable to live your life in constant fear. Yes it is a leap of faith kind of thing and it is scary, but the pay off is just as big.

There'd be no need for bullied kids to punch a bully in the face if other people would so much as stand by them and refuse to let the bully isolate them.

You seam to believe that there is a way to stop bullying....There isn't.

There is. I'm not talking about getting rid of all the jerks in the world, or making everyone nice. I'm talking about ending an aspect of our society that allowed people to become isolated and victimized by those people and leaves them with little in ways of options to help themselves.

There is no amount of coddling and sheltering you can do to stop this, no amount of security can stop it.

Who's asking for shelter? Its a very heartless world view you have. I'm talking about admitting society is made of more than one person and that it functions by helping other people do the things they can't do alone. A city can't provide its own food, it has to get it from farmers. Farmers can't make their own tractors, they have to buy them. People live in a society not a bubble. Bullied kids are isolated by society and society tells them to suck it up. Would you tell a rape victim "you should have stood up for yourself?"

Society doesn't need people who can take care of themselves it needs people who can take care of eachother.

No law has stopped it, no policy has topped it, no social construct on the face of the planet can stop it from happening.

Because the ones we have are gak. In my school everyone knew who was and wasn't bullied. No one did anything. Then I got suspended by "zero tolerance" while the bully got off scott free.

School have cameras and hall monitors and even armed guards.....has that stopped it?

Most schools have none of those things.

If a bully has really set his target on you, the thing that will change his mind is you.

And if the bully is the student body? I was alone in a school of 500, and all them treated me like crap. Even after I got the physical harassment to stop I was still alone, isolated, and had no friends, for no reason other than everyone in the school decided that they didn't care what happened to me. Bullying it's some kid being mean to another. Its a prolonged situation of abuse and victimization. We'll never stop rape, or murder, or assault and battery either but we don't tolerate any of those things like we do bullying.

Should society provide this for you?

I was unware I was being horribly unrealistic and unreasonable asking for simple human decency.

What will you want next?

Slippery slope? Really? Bullied kids don't want you to solve all their problems. They just don't want to be treated like something less than human.

You blame te teachers and admin, what are they really supposed to do?

Something other than stand and watch. They let it slide because they're afraid of being sued, or of being unfair, or simply because bullying is so severe that they don't think they can do anything.

Have you seen what parents will do if a teacher touches their kid?

Yeah and its part of the problem.

What happens when you are done with school? Look jerks are everywhere and every age.

There's a difference between someone being a jerk and someone treating you like an play thing for their amusement.

I'm not defending Bullies believe me.

No you're blaming the victim.

I know about bullies.

I don't think you do. Jerks are not bullies. Being bullied is not dealing with jerks. There's are words in law for bullying. Harassment, Assault, and Battery. Bullying is behavior that is semi-tolerated among children but is never tolerated in society at large. It's a prolonged period of verbal and physical abuse and harassment that denies the victim their human dignity. It is not someone being mean to you, it is not someone being rude. That's not bullying. Bullying is being surrounded by five kids who hurl insults at you while dozens of other people stand around and do nothing for days weeks and months. Being touched inappropriately, or punched and kicked while everyone around you laughs. Its the dicks on the sports teams purposely pelting baseballs into your head and calling it an accident. And people just watch. Ppeople who need do nothing more than speak up and do the right thing. Bullies are the popular kids. The kids who get to do whatever they want because we let them. The kids who get idolized for what they do to other people.

I'm not saying bullies go away. I'm saying that society should isolate the bullies instead of isolating the victims because if we do that there will be fewer bullies and fewer kids who get bullied.

Andrew1975 wrote:
You seam to believe that there is a way to stop bullying....There isn't.

There is a difference between believing X can be eliminated, and enacting policy measures which reduce the prevalence of X.

Andrew1975 wrote:
There is no amount of coddling and sheltering you can do to stop this, no amount of security can stop it.

There's also no amount of saying "Stand up for yourself!" that can stop it. There are people in this world who, if I decided to make it my mission to ruin their lives, could do almost nothing about it.

LordofHats wrote: Bullying is behavior that is semi-tolerated among children but is never tolerated in society at large.

Have you read a tabloid?

I believe there's a South Park episode about this.