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Just imagine what you would do if you had an older person assaulting you with a gang at his back and you had a knife in your pocket. I'd use it, I'm sure everyone who's posted on this thread would use it. That doesn't make them a criminal.

Most people probably wouldn't, they would gak themselves and let someone steal their knife while they are getting beat. This kid was no coward, yet he still tried to avoid the situation. He needs counseling, serious and possibly long term. The judges should have gone after the bullies friends as accomplices and charged them with manslaughter. I'm sure they egged him on. If not to actually punish them, then to scare the gak out of them.

Horst wrote:Reminiscent of Ender's Game.... fight once, but strike hard enough to never be bullied again.

I was thinking the exact same thing. He could have won that fight, with that one bully, then and there, or win every fight, with all of them, forever.

Still, holy gak, 12 stabs.

Andrew1975 wrote:I would assume it was a pen kinfe, I can't really see him sneaking Rambos knife into school.

I have one of these...



...that never leaves the webbing outside my backpack. If I put it into my backpack, you would never know it was there.

I also have one of these...



...on my person pretty much all the time, and you would never know it if you didn't know what to look for (and you would still find it difficult to tell it apart from a cell phone or wallet).

You are also not a 14 year old. Certainly not the average 14 year old who doesn't have access to a cache of weapons. He most likely (not nessesarily) had a common pen, steak, or swiss army knife. You know the kind of thing most kids can get their hand on. Not this

Though I'm not sure if you could easily stab someone with that.

What ever, bully's have no need to live anyways, I'm glad the kid stabbed the bugger, he grew and pair and showed the guy what really happens if you screw with someone

The latter of the two is something most outdoors shops will sell to a teenager, and is more than capable of inflicting lethal wounds.

Really though, while the MKII I posted a picture of is better at facilitating death than your garden variety pen knife, most any knife is lethal if you know what you're doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ParatrooperSimon wrote:...he grew and pair and showed the guy what really happens if you screw with someone

Well, no. What really happens is what tends to happen, which is not being stabbed.

Still, he should get something.

From all I can tell in this case, No. No he shouldn't. He attempted repeatedly to avoid physical confrontation, and then when he finally responded with force it was in what certainly qualifies as a deadly force situation (Or, what, you don't think that you can get killed when you have multiple people your size or larger stomping you on the pavement?)

Still, holy gak, 12 stabs.

So? Talk to some people who got in a fight and actually got stabbed. You'll probably be surprised at how many thought the other guy was just throwing punches until they noticed all the blood. Human body will also manage to take a lot of puncture wounds outside the central nervous system and keep fighting. Could very well be the kid had stabbed the guy 12 times before Captain Donkey Cave was incapacitated.

You don't count your punches in a fist fight, or your cuts and thrusts in a sword fight, or your shots in a gunfight, and then stop when you get to a number that might offend someones sensibilities later on, regardless of whether your eyeballs are being introduced to the back of your skull. You punch, kick, stab, cut, or shoot until the "IF I DON'T KEEP DOING THIS I AM DEAD/GOING TO THE ICU" situation ends, and then you stop. From all appearances, this kid did exactly that.

While I can only judge on the information I can find, and always entertain the possibility that there may be something withheld that could change the overall picture entirely....Sounds like the kid needs to be taken out to a steak dinner, given a beer and sent to a hotel room with an escort as a reward for not winding up dead.

SOFDC wrote:Human body will also manage to take a lot of puncture wounds outside the central nervous system and keep fighting.

Well, and arteries, and certain tendons.

Well, and arteries, and certain tendons.

Tendons more immediately (Admittedly more limited.) than the arteries. My opponent going lights out in (assuming better case) 5-6 seconds due to blood loss is a long time to wait when those 5-6 seconds are filled with being clubbed in the side of the head with a brick.

Maybe there would be fewer bullies if bullying carried the death penalty... but that's probably true of a lot of things

Seriously though. My sympathy for the bully = 0. Maybe the rest of the dicks in his school will decide to be better people. The only victim is Jorge, who now isn't just a victim of abuse but a killer. He has to live with that for the rest of his life, even though the guy he killed had it coming and deserved ever stab.

I think you're underestimating the debilitating effect that pain can have, but this kid almost certainly had no knowledge of it.

LordofHats wrote:He has to live with that for the rest of his life, even though the guy he killed had it coming and deserved ever stab.

I don't know about that.

He certainly deserved a beating, but its hard to say, without more information, that he deserved to die.

And I say this as a guy that's been bullied, and taken those bullies to task.

I don't know that he deserved to die either, that's a pretty big statement. However, he deserved to die more than the other kid did. I think it is tragic, it didn't need to happen, there are no winners in this situation. This is not the same as the fat kid suplexing the bully. This is permanent, and nobody walked away whole.

dogma wrote:I don't know about that.

He certainly deserved a beating, but its hard to say, without more information, that he deserved to die.

And I say this as a guy that's been bullied, and taken those bullies to task.

Obviously as a former bullied kid, I'm biased

The thing that sucks the most about being bullied, is that adults really are no help. Going to them makes bullying worse, and the advice they give is completely counter productive. If all you do is talk back, the bullies continue to bully. If you ignore them, they continue to bully. Bullies only stopped bullying me when I punched one in the face. Schools don't punish bullies harshly enough (by that I mean they pretty much do nothing unless there is excessive physical contact witnessed by school officials) and they don't help bullied kids because the bullies have rights too. I got suspended for three days for hitting that kid in the face. Nothing ever happened to him over the course of the four years of verbal and physical abuse prior to the incident. After I hit him, people stopped bullying me.

Kids who are bullied have no recourse in our schools because schools don't help them. Sure as hell didn't help me over the course of 12 years.

Killing is extreme and unfortunate. But I'm not shedding a tear for a kid who spends his time hounding another, and for what? There's no practical reason for it other than to derive relief or pleasure from the suffering of another. Either way, the bully is a horrible person and the world is better off without him. Hopefully his friends will look back on this incident and change their behavior. I reserve all sympathy for the living victims who are the ones who truly suffer.

LordofHats wrote:
The thing that sucks the most about being bullied, is that adults really are no help.

I know this is the exception to the rule, but my parents were a big help. I recall my dad saying "Kick his ass, we'll deal with the rest." when I was in 1st grade and being harassed by some 3rd graders (it also helps that I was always a big kid).

LordofHats wrote:
Going to them makes bullying worse, and the advice they give is completely counter productive.

I agree with that.

LordofHats wrote:
If all you do is talk back, the bullies continue to bully.

Until you get better at it than they are. I attribute much of my verbal ability to being harassed in primary school.

LordofHats wrote:
But I'm not shedding a tear for a kid who spends his time hounding another, and for what? There's no practical reason for it other than to derive relief or pleasure from the suffering of another.

Well, as I'm sure you know, I don't care much about the lives of others. But there are practical reasons to bully people (popularity), and lots of people derive pleasure from the suffering of others (failblog).

The thing that sucks the most about being bullied, is that adults really are no help. Going to them makes bullying worse, and the advice they give is completely counter productive. If all you do is talk back, the bullies continue to bully. If you ignore them, they continue to bully. Bullies only stopped bullying me when I punched one in the face. Schools don't punish bullies harshly enough (by that I mean they pretty much do nothing unless there is excessive physical contact witnessed by school officials) and they don't help bullied kids because the bullies have rights too. I got suspended for three days for hitting that kid in the face. Nothing ever happened to him over the course of the four years of verbal and physical abuse prior to the incident. After I hit him, people stopped bullying me.

That is how bullying works. It does teach an important life lesson though. You need to learn to stand up for yourself or you will be a target all your life. Standing up to the bully is very frightening, but the most liberating feeling in the world. That is the lesson that you learn, if you stand up and don't carry yourself like a target, you know what happens...Nothing, you almost never get into a physical confrontation. People pick on the weak or those that appear weak because the never expect them to stand up. If you stand up they will move on and find another target.

It's not a size issue. It is absolutely how you carry and handle yourself. When I was the meekest guy in the world I would attract so much attention. I was amazed when I learned all I had to do was stand up straight, look people in the eye, and not walk around with my tail between my legs. I also learned that if it came to a fight, I could handle myself pretty well, and it doesn't hurt nearly as much as walking around like a looser all day every day.

You don't have to be a jerk about it either, but the second someone steps up, step right up to, they almost always back down unless they really have a personal issue with you.

In a sense bullies are useful, they can teach you self confidence which is a skill that you can use for the rest of your life in many situations.

Slarg232 wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Slarg232 wrote:But to get off on murdering this kid is a bit much.

He didn't murder anyone, he killed someone in self defense.

Potato, Potahto. Someone died, didn' they?

You don't understand the difference between murdered and killed? Just the act of being dead isn't enough to be considered murdered. If someone has a heart attack in the middle of the night and die in their bed they aren't considered to have been murdered in their sleep.

I'm fine with this.

He obviously did not want to be beaten by a donkey cave and his friends and so ran, when cornered he saw that the only way to stop himself from being hurt was to defend himself.

I'm doubting he even tried to kill the guy, maybe just scare him off or cut him, but it seems to be in self defense.

Also, when a knife is off such a small scale, it may require multiple blows or strikes to have any effect.

Kind of happy he didn't get punished. Everytime I got into a fight against a bully (i'd always win) I either got suspended or arrested. I know what its like to have donkey-caves piss you the feth off everyday and when you finally do something about it you shouldn't be fething punished. To be honest I'm glad that kid died, probably would've saved another kid from being bullied. The filth in this world is unbelievable.

dogma wrote:The latter of the two is something most outdoors shops will sell to a teenager, and is more than capable of inflicting lethal wounds.

Really though, while the MKII I posted a picture of is better at facilitating death than your garden variety pen knife, most any knife is lethal if you know what you're doing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ParatrooperSimon wrote:...he grew and pair and showed the guy what really happens if you screw with someone

Well, no. What really happens is what tends to happen, which is not being stabbed.

Actually, mainly in western countries. If you threaten or try and assualt someone, you will get stabbed, or even shot. You know what bro, why don't you go around the bad parts LA or New York and just start threatning people and then you see what happens. Jesus some people are just really ignorant

ParatrooperSimon wrote:
You know what bro, why don't you go around the bad parts LA or New York and just start threatning people and then you see what happens. Jesus some people are just really ignorant

Yep.

Good responce bud

I enjoyed it as well (/canned response), but I feel like I should elaborate. I've threatened my fair share of people, probably more than my fair share, and have numerous friends that have done the same. I have no stab wound scars, nor do any of them. I imagine that, if I wanted to consult statistics, the statistical evidence would favor people not being stabbed due to threats.

Ahtman wrote:

In a nine-page document released Tuesday by the State Attorney’s Office, Brodie stated that by getting off the bus several stops before the location where the fight was to happen, Saavedra “demonstrated that, with or without a knife, (he) had no desire to fight with Dylan Nuno.”

Which courtroom idiot buys that? Getting out early and walking warms you up psyches you up and steels you for what you want to do, it also allows you to pick your ground and timing. If Saavedra didn't want to fight Nuno he should stay on the bus past the stop or get off outside a public building.

There needs to be stronger reasons than that to say the murder was not premeditated. If Saavedra brought a knife it meant he wanted to take a knife to a fight, thats premeditation right there. At that point anything other than the minimum action

Also while actions say murder was intentional beyond reasonable doubt, what actually gives indication the fight was not wanted. Did Saavedra try and call it off? If not did he try to call it off when he had the upper hand? Loss of face is no excuse to say you didn't want to fight, especially if armed. As for twelve stabs, that isnt calling it off either. I see nothing to suggest Saavedra entered the fight without intention to finish it, he did enter the fight and did finish it, that was not contested and therefore should be culpable for the death of Nuno.

Society in America is not based off of stabbing people by threatening them.

As a civil society to which most people play by the informal laws created by centuries of personal interaction with their fellow man, most would not stab a person for threatening them.

We may entertain the idea of violence to counteract threats, but by and large we contain that impulse by thinking about the situation before ultimately deciding a stint in jail is not what we want to do.

Orlanth wrote:Getting out early and walking the rest of the way warms you up psyches you up and steels you for what you want to do.

Or doesn't.

For a guy that likes to argue from "human nature" you are really bad at arguing from "human nature."

Orlanth wrote:
there needs to be stronger reasons than that to say the murder was not premeditated.

Thankfully, his lawyer only needed to argue against the case that he committed murder.

Orlanth wrote:
If Saavedra walked that distance with a knife it meant he wanted to take a knife to a fight, thats premeditation right there.

Depends on the state.

Orlanth wrote:
Also while actions say murder was intentional beyond reasonable doubt, what actual;ly gives indication the fight was not wanted. Did Saavedra try and call it off?

Says the guy that did no research.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Getting out early and walking the rest of the way warms you up psyches you up and steels you for what you want to do.

Or doesn't.

For a guy that likes to argue from "human nature" you are really bad at arguing from "human nature."

'Your really bad at'.. shtick again dogma. *yawn*

Getting off a bus and walking away with a hothead who wants a fight will have one expected outcome, the hothead will follow you off. If this was accompanied by an intention to get away you get off the bus somewhere safer. This looks like walking Nuno to an ambush. Somewhere where he can be stabbed.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
there needs to be stronger reasons than that to say the murder was not premeditated.

Thankfully, his lawyer only needed to argue against the case that he committed murder.

Orlanth wrote:
If Saavedra walked that distance with a knife it meant he wanted to take a knife to a fight, thats premeditation right there.

Depends on the state.

Good lawyer, but not a good outcome. He showed the knife off to his mates, that shows intent to use the knife in the fight. Twelve stabs, means he intended to finish the job

Orlanth wrote:
'Your really bad at'.. shtick again dogma. *yawn*

Yep, people that think you're bad at a thing will tell you that you're bad at that thing.

Orlanth wrote:
Getting off a bus and walking away with a hothead who wants a fight will have one expected outcome, the hothead will follow you off.

The other expected outcome is "He will stay on the bus."

If that is a difficult proposition for you to anticipate, then I expect that you aren't paying attention.

Orlanth wrote:
If this was accompanied by an intention to get away you get off the bus somewhere safer.

Like those 2 places where the stabber got off, provided that no safer alternatives were available.

Orlanth wrote:
there needs to be stronger reasons than that to say the murder was not premeditated.

Ah yes, convict prior to the provision of evidence.

Orlanth wrote:
He showed the knife off to his mates, that shows intent to use the knife in the fight. Twelve stabs, means he intended to finish the job

It means he intended to stab.

I have quite the knife collection, and I have shown said collection to many mates, but that doesn't mean I intend to kill with it a any given time.

Getting off a bus and walking away with a hothead who wants a fight will have one expected outcome, the hothead will follow you off.

I notice the little flag under your name is different than mine. It must truly be a different place, because here, when we have people intent on a fight (Note the bold part of the quote) generally, it's the best of your options to get out of the location ASAP...because...well....Otherwise you sit there and get slugged. He is, after all, intent on beating the everloving <CENSORED> out of you. The "Where" the fight happens is secondary in the mind of the instigator.

This looks like walking Nuno to an ambush. Somewhere where he can be stabbed.

What? Do you really expect me to believe that this kid got off the bus thinking "Ha HA! I'll lead them right to the spot I have planned, using the irresistable lure that is the back of my head and body to draw their attention (And punches!) and then, while they have me outnumbered and their fists and feet are exactly where I want them (impacting me at velocity!) I will whip my knife out and shank that <CENSORED>! That'll teach him!)

Even if I bought it I would have to give it the nod as the worst planned ambush Ever.

SOFDC wrote:
Even if I bought it I would have to give it the nod as the worst planned ambush Ever.

Yep.

But, then, kids are dumb.