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Yak9UT wrote:
Getting stab once is painful enough to stop alot of people from attacking you.

This is not true. People tend to keep fighting until basically dead in a knife fight. People tend to not feel stab wounds right away. This is not the movies.

The thing about deadly force is that it is inherently deadly. If you are up to where you are using deadly force AT ALL, then you simply need to use it until the threat stops. If you are in a position to hold back, then you are not in a position to use deadly force at all.

Yak9UT wrote:It seems a little premeditated to have a knife ready to stab someone.

Sounds like he had the knife out, in an attempt to dissuade the bully from attacking him. A 'I've got this so back off' warding gesture. It wouldn't really have made sense for him to have put it away if he sees his antagonists refusing to back down, to the extent of his multiple attempts at avoidance failed.

If he really didnt want to fight/Kill him why would he stab him 12 times!

If he was terrified, in full andrenaline-pumping fight-or-flight-and-flight-failed mode, and the bully was close in as was obviously somewhat the case given he'd already gotten punched in the head, then the number of stabs is probably irrelevant, as he was going to keep doing what he thought would best preserve his life until the threat was gone.

Try making an under-arm stabbing motion as quickly as you can. You can probably complete 12 reps in under 3 seconds. I think it's more likely that the bully eventually fell back/disengaged and the kid with the knife didn't follow him, otherwise it would have been even higher than 12.

This isn't a rational actor we're talking about here, it's someone who's been pushed beyond the snapping point and his primal monkey instincts took over.

Isn't it a bit pre-meditated to "organise" a fight?

Kilkrazy wrote:Isn't it a bit pre-meditated to "organise" a fight?

Yep, which is why the bully, who did so, should have been punished if he had lived.

Good for the kid. If it's anything like some of the fights that happened when I was in high school it might have been his only chance at not getting seriously hurt.

I was always told as a kid don't start it but end it. My dad had more than one conversation with a principal when I was growing up and I was never suspended. That was 15 years ago though and times change

However I will say whole heartedly that not all bullies are cowards. At that point all you can hope for if you go toe to toe is a mutual respect and that they'll move on. And that is heavily dependent on the psyche and culture of the bully.

When a kid has to uses a knife in a fight its not okay.

I dont beleive he was just defending himself because the report says the bully got stab both in the neck and the heart which people would useually do if they wanted to kill someone not a eractic response to defending themselves.

Rented Tritium wrote:

This is not true.people tend to keep fighting until basically dead in a knife fight. People tend to not feel stab wounds right away. This is not the movies.

a few of my mates have been stab they say its terrible pain, I could imagine that adrenaline could affect the pain but from one of my mates told me he was in a brawl at the time he got stabbed.

I'm not defending the bully he sounds like a right prick if I ever saw one but to kill him?

I mean the guy himself was only 16.

I doubt the bully had any other intention other then to beat him up to make him look like a heroe to other school mates yeah its still bad but killing him was way out of line even in self defence.

from the sound of the report he only managed to make one punch to the back of the headand then got stabbed.

Its not self defense to kill someone with a knife against an unarmed person. Now If the person pulled it on me. And I was unarmed I would have every right to kill the guy with his own knife.
NOW! This is a different situation than the one in the report. In the Report says the kid stabbed him 12 times. Now. This is evidence that the kid did it spontaneous? yes?
So there is no evidence of the bully having a weapon right? So this means this is not self defense but cold harded murder.

Of course i haven't read through the thread. So my point might be double pointed.

Yak9UT wrote:When a kid has to uses a knife in a fight its not okay.

If someone is being violently assaulted... why should they hold back in defending themselves?

Feth holding back. If someone is trying to kill you or beat you to an inch of death, kick them in the nuts, gouge their eyes out, bite their fingers off, break their legs, stab them, shoot them!

Hurt them so badly that they will stop attacking you and never attack you again. I don't get this "just let yourself be beaten/killed" nonsense. Fighting on equal terms is for idiots and those who actually enjoy fighting. I don't enjoy fighting (at least not physical conflict), so I'm not going to fight "fair". I'm going to hurt the other person as badly as I can as quickly as I can.

Otherwise I'll probably get my ass kicked or worse. Still might anyway... but at least fighting tooth and nail and never holding back is going to give me a better chance than merely giving in...

Yak9UT wrote:When a kid has to uses a knife in a fight its not okay.

I dont beleive he was just defending himself because the report says the bully got stab both in the neck and the heart which people would useually do if they wanted to kill someone not a eractic response to defending themselves.

I don't know many people, even people who don't know what they're doing, who don't know that you'll do more damage with a knife if you stab them in the neck and the left side of the chest. Though, really the chest isn't the best target in most circumstances thanks to ye olde rib cage, and the neck is a bit difficult to hit reliably.

And people that do know what they're doing will likely react in self-defense in the manner they have been trained to react when under duress, rather than stop and think to avoid fatal damage. I'm not going to claim to be some kind of knife savant, but given sufficient provocation, and a sudden threat that would make want to use a knife, my first reaction is going to be putting as many holes in your diaphragm as possible; which basically ensures that you're going to die without some pretty quick medical response.

Clthomps wrote:Did anyone read the article? He got off the bus multiple stops before to avoid fighting, then when they (a group of kids) found him he tried to run away and they punched him in the back of the head.

So he tried to avoid violence 2 times and found himself facing a group of kids older than himself after everything he did. So he stabbed the kid in defense, good for him he didn't end up the victim.



What I don't get is the people defending the dead bully, if you raise your kid to be an idiot don't be shocked when it bites him in the ass.

Bullys arent raised like that, they just have a horrible personalitie the same with murderes.

Asherian Command wrote:Its not self defense to kill someone with a knife against an unarmed person. Now If the person pulled it on me. And I was unarmed I would have every right to kill the guy with his own knife.NOW!

So it IS okay to kill the recently disarmed person once you are armed even though you state it would not be self defense?

CptJake wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Its not self defense to kill someone with a knife against an unarmed person. Now If the person pulled it on me. And I was unarmed I would have every right to kill the guy with his own knife.NOW!

So it IS okay to kill the recently disarmed person once you are armed even though you state it would not be self defense?

Neither is correct, the official legal position (in the UK) is thus:-

Reasonable Force
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

self-defence; or
defence of another; or
defence of property; or
prevention of crime; or
lawful arrest.
In assessing the reasonableness of the force used, prosecutors should ask two questions:

was the use of force necessary in the circumstances, i.e. Was there a need for any force at all? and
was the force used reasonable in the circumstances?
The courts have indicated that both questions are to answered on the basis of the facts as the accused honestly believed them to be (R v Williams (G) 78 Cr App R 276), (R. v Oatbridge, 94 Cr App R 367).

To that extent it is a subjective test. There is, however, an objective element to the test. The jury must then go on to ask themselves whether, on the basis of the facts as the accused believed them to be, a reasonable person would regard the force used as reasonable or excessive.

It is important to bear in mind when assessing whether the force used was reasonable the words of Lord Morris in (Palmer v R 1971 AC 814);

"If there has been an attack so that self defence is reasonably necessary, it will be recognised that a person defending himself cannot weigh to a nicety the exact measure of his defensive action. If the jury thought that that in a moment of unexpected anguish a person attacked had only done what he honestly and instinctively thought necessary, that would be the most potent evidence that only reasonable defensive action had been taken ..."

I should imagine the US is not very far from this being as they come from the same parentage.

The key here is perception, if you are a small child, the bully is a very large, intimidating and stronger than you, and you are in genuine fear for your life, then it may be proportional. Pulling a knife on someone who attacks you, doesn't mean the roles reverse because the victim is using what you would perceive as more force than you. Assault is initiated by one party on another, it doesn't reverse simply because the victim isn't as weak as you supposed.

So in answer Yes, you can argue and sucessfully dependant on circumstances that stabbing someone is self defence.

There was a case where someone with Samurai Sword went berserk in the 90's in Liverpool, UK and slashed up a police car. The Police Officers in fear of their lives pulled back. An Armed Response unit tried to apprehend him, he attack them, they shot him dead in Self Defence. Massive Enquiry, they were absolved it was a Legal Killing, and they received commendations for protecting the public. On the basis of the arguments by other users above, these Police Officers would have gone to Prison.

[edit: meh, I'm gonna deletet his.]

As someone who was bullied relentlessly, and a very similar thing as this happened (bully attacked me on the bus then followed me and tried to kick the gak out of me) guess what? If I had a knife I would have bloody well used it. I thought he was going to kill me. And you know what? It wasn't that much longer before he did kill someone. (2 years) Beat the guy to death. Poor guy didn't fight back, died.
In a situation like that the kid with the knife probably brought his knife 'just in case'. And this bully pushed him to much and made him too afraid. He thought he was going to die/be beaten too hard and fought back with everything he could. He's got my full sympathies for having to go that far, and my understanding. This kid was missing school because of fear, had health issues and did everything he could to avoid this.
As for the fighting back and getting left alone, it kind of depends on who you're fighting and where you are. I personally wish I'd fought back. It might have helped my self esteem if nothign else. But where I grew up the spankers never fought 'fair'. It would be 1 on 1... unless you fought back, especially if you started winning. Then you got curb stomped. And if you won that, depending on the bully, you had to watch your back because they'd attack you when you least expected it.

If a crowd of bullies surrounded me and was threatening to beat me within a inch or more of my life I WOULD go crazy.

I would shout crazy things like "FOR THE EMPEROR, "SPACES MAHREENS ATTAAAAACK".

I would rip the arm off one of them and proceed to take a bite out of it and start swinging said severed arm at them in order to scare the rest off. I shall do all of this while chanting the Litany of Battle.

CT GAMER wrote:Its a tragic event, but one that was perpetuated and escalted multiple times by the deceased.

It is hard to feel much sympathy for a predator who gets some of his own medicine in a situation he willingly created A situation whose purpose was to derive enjoyment in the mental/physical/social anguish of someone weaker then one's self.

If I ever found out one of my kids was bullying someone here would be hell to pay. I have zero tolerance for such predatory stupidity and have conveyed this to my sons clearly and regularly since they have been old enough to understand the spoken word. I pray it is never an issue.

Though I don't condone with violence but this is somehow different. For me, it is more like self-defense from a bully that has been taunting him for awhile. Maybe this is the bully's karma for doing the things he did to him. And just like you, if I ever hear my kids that they are bullying even when I raised them to be good and disciplined individuals; then there really will be hell to pay for them. Parents should talk about bullying issues to make the kids aware that this is bad and that it could lead misfortune.

Threadromancy?

<threat terminated; please don't revive conversations that are more than one month dormant>