Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In this case the story would require such a chronic case of stupidity that I would believe "Just yanked his knife out on the bus and lunged at the bully!" more quickly.

I think this is ok he was let of his murder charge, this was not murder.

He may be charged in the future with something else. Manslaughter or something. But what good can come of punishing this child?

He will need counseling and help, to put him in prison will just ruin his life and makes no one safer.

dogma wrote:Yep, people that think you're bad at a thing will tell you that you're bad at that thing.

Well that sums up your method of argument: more name calling, less deduction . Declaring an argument a non argument rather than explaining why logically.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
Getting off a bus and walking away with a hothead who wants a fight will have one expected outcome, the hothead will follow you off.

The other expected outcome is "He will stay on the bus."
If that is a difficult proposition for you to anticipate, then I expect that you aren't paying attention.

Bully on bus, kids on bus announcing fight loudly. Other kid gets off at an estate. Its obvious to see what would happen.
To get away from the fight you stay on the bus past the stop or get off somewhere where there are authorities present.
Now standing up to the bully, thats good. But bringing a knife, concealing it and getting off at an estate where a fight can be expected, thats not so good.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
If this was accompanied by an intention to get away you get off the bus somewhere safer.

Like those 2 places where the stabber got off, provided that no safer alternatives were available.

Two places? If he got off then got on a bus and got off again it would change things. However the report said he got off the bus in plain view, and I argue that wasn't really trying to get away.

dogma wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
He showed the knife off to his mates, that shows intent to use the knife in the fight. Twelve stabs, means he intended to finish the job

It means he intended to stab.

So he didn't intend to continue trying to walk away. Thankyou. This is no case of minimum contact. Intent can be proved to be prior by the fact that he showed the knife.

dogma wrote:
I have quite the knife collection, and I have shown said collection to many mates, but that doesn't mean I intend to kill with it a any given time.

At leisure with friends, or a bus on the way to a fight?
Come on now dogma its more than a little facetious to ignore that there is a world of difference between the two.



The prosecution case could have been better handled I think, perhaps they didn't really want to in hindsight. I doubt anyone in the local police, or DA office will be weeping tears for Nuno. I am not saying they threw the case but the idea that trying to get away once in the circumstances indicates trying to get away rather than relocating to a better spot.

We don't have access as of yet to what actually happened in the fight on a step by step level, so far we have 1) Both teens get off bus 2) Nuno hits Saavedro on back. 3) Nuno is repeatedly stabbed.

From what we reported the bully stepped up to Saavedro and started hitting him on the back. This makes sense, you are 'walking away' so he approaches you closely and starting hitting. However if trying to avoid harm at a danger point you don't turn your back, you step backwards or remain in a defensive posture, or you run very fast. Now Saavedro is not expected to run away, the local law understands that. However turning the back was in all likelihood a lure. A bully will not try to finish a fight early unless threatened with damage, its no fun. So what would be expected to come would be a pummeling. Meanwhile Saavedro draws the knife quietly turns around suddenly and stabs.
A quick turn around is a common means of dealing with a bully as the method of attack is normally verty predictable, and allows you to get the drop on the bully, especially if they are lured into thinking you are not going to fight back. Seen it done, done it myself. With a knife its potentially a very deadly counterattack as the bully will be right behind you and in a poor position to defend against the initial attack, which will be a body hit with the force of the turn, possibly also added to the bullies forward momentum.
I don't know this for sure, something else might have happened, but as Nuno was in all likelihood stronger Saavedro probably attacked with surprise. I suggest this was the plan from the start, and showing the knife on the bus is strong evidence of that.

Addendum:

check this out, eye witness testimonies on this page.
http://www.naplesnews.com/news/dylan-nuno-jorge-saavedra-school-bus-stop-stabbing-death/

Jan. 24, 2011 at a bus stop on the corner of 47th Avenue NE and Immokalee Road in Golden Gate Estates moments after stepping off the bus.

Moments? So Nuno stepped out to fight and got the knife pretty much immediately.
Looks more like an ambush, Saavedro did not start the fight or the argument that led to it, but Nuno was played by a smarter kid, with a knife.

Had a better lawyer too.

Do you expect this kid to be some sort of shadow? Able to slip in and out at a whim so that others do not even notice him?

The kid was 14, he was trying to get away from a bully. He brought a knife for self defense in case he could not get away from the bully. He was scared for his life.

The kid did not sit up all night thinking of ways to bait the bully in to fighting him so that he could stab him. It was not murder, it was self defense.

Orlanth wrote:Intent can be proved to be prior by the fact that he showed the knife.

Obviously it could not, otherwise the Judge would have gone that way.

Orlanth wrote:Jan. 24, 2011 at a bus stop on the corner of 47th Avenue NE and Immokalee Road in Golden Gate Estates moments after stepping off the bus.

Moments? So Nuno stepped out to fight and got the knife pretty much immediately.
Looks more like an ambush, Saavedro did not start the fight or the argument that led to it, but Nuno was played by a smarter kid, with a knife.

Can you give me a real measurement to how long a "moment" is? That article is very vague on pretty much everything it states.

The entire quote:

"Jorge Saavedra, 14, is accused of stabbing his 16-year-old Palmetto Ridge High School classmate Dylan Reid Nuno on Monday, Jan. 24, 2011 at a bus stop on the corner of 47th Avenue NE and Immokalee Road in Golden Gate Estates moments after stepping off the bus. Nuno, a junior, was pronounced dead at NCH North Collier Hospital. Saavedra, a freshman, was arrested and charged with manslaughter."

It would seem many folks have never been in an actual fight. I make that statement based on the fact folks seem to think that the number of stabs/cuts iis so high it proves murder.

When your adrenalin is pumping and you are scared of being severely hurt or worse, flight hasn't worked so you fight, you honestly don't count punches/kicks/bites/gouges/stabs or what ever. You keep at it until it is really clear the other guy isn't gonna get up and hurt you. That usually means the other guy is severly hurt. To think a kid can recognize the exact point at which he can stop striking is ludicrious. Even cops/soldiers are trained that if you have to shoot you fire until the target isn't getting up. Those are trained adults. It is always best to keep hitting with what you got until there is no doubt you have won. Often that is way past the point when you have won, because again, you got adrenaline and fear and rage pumping through you.

It is only in lame movies where the fighters have that type of control.

As for 'having a knife proves premeditation'; get real. Lots of folks carry weapons, to include guns. That fact does not mean they are out to kill anyone. It means they are WILLING to kill to protect themselves. That is not a bad thing.

Moments? So Nuno stepped out to fight and got the knife pretty much immediately.

Even if we take "Moment" to mean "Under 10 seconds"...well...if Goomba Leader, Goomba 1, 2, and 3 step off the bus immediately behind you and initiate combat without other warning, well...Time to fight pretty much immediately ain't it?

As for 'having a knife proves premeditation'; get real. Lots of folks carry weapons, to include guns. That fact does not mean they are out to kill anyone. It means they are WILLING to kill to protect themselves. That is not a bad thing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

q

A US Newspaper Website wrote:Saavedra, a freshman, was arrested and charged with manslaughter.

A Collier judge has upheld the "Stand your ground" defense in the case of Jorge Saavedra, who stabbed Dylan Nuno to death last January. The judge granted the motion to dismiss the case on the grounds that Saavedra acted in self defense according to Florida's "Stand your ground" statute. The order grants Saavedra, now 15, immunity from further criminal prosecution as well as from any eventual civil action regarding Nuno's homicide.

He wasn't prosecuted for murder.

He was found innocent of Manslaughter.

He can't be prosecuted for murder or civil damages.

If you think this makes it a good plan to conspire to murder someone by being nerdy, getting them to bully you, etc. then you probably play too many Phoenix Wright games.

Ahtman wrote:Article

NAPLES — A 15-year-old who fatally stabbed his school mate will no longer face criminal prosecution.

A judge’s ruling, made public Tuesday, granted a motion to dismiss the second-degree murder charge against Jorge Saavedra in the death of 16-year-old Dylan Nuno on the grounds that he acted in self-defense under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” law. The State Attorney’s Office has indicated that it will not appeal the ruling.

Nuno’s family and friends criticized Collier County Circuit Judge Lauren Brodie’s decision, calling it “unbelievable” and “heartbreaking.”

“We know this wasn’t the right decision,” said Dylan’s aunt, Adriana Nuno.“(The judge) is showing those kids it’s OK to get away with murder.”

Saavedra, who was 14 at the time of the stabbing, was charged as a juvenile. If found guilty, the former Palmetto Ridge High student would have been released by the age of 21.

Brodie’s ruling concluded that Saavadra, who said he was bullied and tried avoid a fight with Nuno, did not act unlawfully. She added that Saavadra had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm.

Brodie based her decision this week on the findings from a two-day December hearing, during which students who witnessed the events Jan. 24, 2011, testified that several teens announced the fight on the bus, and Saavedra got off several stops early in Golden Gate Estates. Saavedra showed a pocket knife to two teens on the bus that afternoon.

In a nine-page document released Tuesday by the State Attorney’s Office, Brodie stated that by getting off the bus several stops before the location where the fight was to happen, Saavedra “demonstrated that, with or without a knife, (he) had no desire to fight with Dylan Nuno.”

Excellent. Perfect ruling.

Orlanth wrote: Twelve stabs, means he intended to finish the job

He probably gave as many stabs as it took for Nuno to back off and I guess it took that many stabs for Nuno to realize he was being stabbed. Assuming the knife didn't break, fall or get stuck, the whole thing could have taken less than 10 seconds

Slarg232 wrote:I want to say that bullying is bad, first of all.

But to get off on murdering this kid is a bit much.

One (un)lucky self defensive stab resulting in a death? Ok, slap him on the wrists, give him a record, and make sure he knows he did bad.

Twelve stabs? Waaaaaaay too much.

Horse gak. You're entitled to use appropriate means until the threat is stopped. Pumping someone coming at you repeatedly can happen in a bear few seconds. Until the attacker backs off and is not a threat. You can do what you need to do.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chowderhead wrote:I'm with Slarg.

12 Stabs? Seriously? Overkill in the 1st degree,

Evidently the judge, actually hearing some of the facts of the case, disagreed.
Fortunately.

Also it's known that smaller/weaker people and those not accustomed to violence can panic and go overboard. Partly because they feel so threatened by a much stronger opponent, but also because they can't judge 'reasonable force' in the heat of the moment.

I've read cases where people have killed a burglar by stabbing them 50 times or something ludicrous. They didn't plan to kill the man, they didn't know they were going to be burgled, but they lose all control in a blind panic. People not accustomed to carrying out violent acts can be very unpredictable.

SOFDC wrote:

Getting off a bus and walking away with a hothead who wants a fight will have one expected outcome, the hothead will follow you off.

I notice the little flag under your name is different than mine. It must truly be a different place, because here, when we have people intent on a fight (Note the bold part of the quote) generally, it's the best of your options to get out of the location ASAP...because...well....Otherwise you sit there and get slugged. He is, after all, intent on beating the everloving <CENSORED> out of you. The "Where" the fight happens is secondary in the mind of the instigator.

Get out the location quickly means either - withdraw from the bus stop quickly, or - get off somewhere else safer.
Perhaps in the US bullies are happy to beat people up outside cop stations or other public places where they will get arrested, I thought they were smarter than that. "Where" is normally high on the mindset of the aggressor as not getting caught is a priority.

SOFDC wrote:
What? Do you really expect me to believe that this kid got off the bus thinking "Ha HA! I'll lead them right to the spot I have planned, using the irresistable lure that is the back of my head and body to draw their attention (And punches!) and then, while they have me outnumbered and their fists and feet are exactly where I want them (impacting me at velocity!) I will whip my knife out and shank that <CENSORED>! That'll teach him!)

Like that, no. For a start Nuno was operating alone, he had an audience not support, big difference. Secondly as corroborated by eye witnesses Saavedro did not remain with his back to Nuno for long, I wouldnt expect him to either. He needs his back to Nuno only long enough to draw his knife without being seen. Eye witnesses heard Nuno call out that he had been stabbed, and try to run away himself. Check the videos on the link.

Saavedro had a knife, he prepared use of his knife and indicated to friends that he would use it if there was a fight. Saavedro didn't actually avoid a fight, he got off at an earlier bus stop, but then fought at the bus stop. There is no real indication he was actually avoiding the fight at all, but much to show his use of the knife was premeditated.

SOFDC wrote:
Even if I bought it I would have to give it the nod as the worst planned ambush Ever.

It worked Nuno was unarmed and attacked someone he thought unarmed, he was surprised, he tried to retreat, collapsed and died.
Read Sun Tzu, manipulation is a part of combat. I have heard of worse planned ambushes.

dogma wrote:I enjoyed it as well (/canned response), but I feel like I should elaborate. I've threatened my fair share of people, probably more than my fair share, and have numerous friends that have done the same. I have no stab wound scars, nor do any of them. I imagine that, if I wanted to consult statistics, the statistical evidence would favor people not being stabbed due to threats.

You probably didn't live in Compton though. In fiarness neither did I. Growing up the neighborhoods were fine and a fight was usually a boxing match. However, when I moved to California I learned very quickly there many areas very, very different.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:q

A US Newspaper Website wrote:Saavedra, a freshman, was arrested and charged with manslaughter.

A Collier judge has upheld the "Stand your ground" defense in the case of Jorge Saavedra, who stabbed Dylan Nuno to death last January. The judge granted the motion to dismiss the case on the grounds that Saavedra acted in self defense according to Florida's "Stand your ground" statute. The order grants Saavedra, now 15, immunity from further criminal prosecution as well as from any eventual civil action regarding Nuno's homicide.

He wasn't prosecuted for murder.

He was found innocent of Manslaughter.

He can't be prosecuted for murder or civil damages.

If you think this makes it a good plan to conspire to murder someone by being nerdy, getting them to bully you, etc. then you probably play too many Phoenix Wright games.

Thats not correct KK, he can still be sued civilly. In fact it can stil be pursued criminally depending on the details of the dismissal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CptJake wrote:It would seem many folks have never been in an actual fight. I make that statement based on the fact folks seem to think that the number of stabs/cuts iis so high it proves murder.

When your adrenalin is pumping and you are scared of being severely hurt or worse, flight hasn't worked so you fight, you honestly don't count punches/kicks/bites/gouges/stabs or what ever. You keep at it until it is really clear the other guy isn't gonna get up and hurt you. That usually means the other guy is severly hurt. To think a kid can recognize the exact point at which he can stop striking is ludicrious. Even cops/soldiers are trained that if you have to shoot you fire until the target isn't getting up. Those are trained adults. It is always best to keep hitting with what you got until there is no doubt you have won. Often that is way past the point when you have won, because again, you got adrenaline and fear and rage pumping through you.

It is only in lame movies where the fighters have that type of control.

As for 'having a knife proves premeditation'; get real. Lots of folks carry weapons, to include guns. That fact does not mean they are out to kill anyone. It means they are WILLING to kill to protect themselves. That is not a bad thing.

Indeed. Further, in most states it is not illegal to have a folding pocket of a certain length. Nothing in the article ( I saw anyway) noted that the knife was illegal.

If you are thinking that 12 stabs is more then excessive and shows intent for manslaughter, when your adrenaline is pumping and you are fighting to protect yourself, don't you think that it is understandable that he kept going until he felt he was safe? It's primal instinct.

Dreadwinter wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Intent can be proved to be prior by the fact that he showed the knife.

Obviously it could not, otherwise the Judge would have gone that way.

Hardly the first time you get a poor decision from a courtroom. I don't blame the judge though, Saavedro's family made sure he got a good lawyer, if the state prosecutors council cant argue well against him then he can get his client off.
Good example of that is how stepping off the bus was counted as trying to avoid a fight, whereas it was in all likelihood anything but that.

CptJake wrote:It would seem many folks have never been in an actual fight. I make that statement based on the fact folks seem to think that the number of stabs/cuts iis so high it proves murder.

When your adrenalin is pumping and you are scared of being severely hurt or worse, flight hasn't worked so you fight, you honestly don't count punches/kicks/bites/gouges/stabs or what ever. You keep at it until it is really clear the other guy isn't gonna get up and hurt you. That usually means the other guy is severly hurt. To think a kid can recognize the exact point at which he can stop striking is ludicrious. Even cops/soldiers are trained that if you have to shoot you fire until the target isn't getting up. Those are trained adults. It is always best to keep hitting with what you got until there is no doubt you have won. Often that is way past the point when you have won, because again, you got adrenaline and fear and rage pumping through you.

It is only in lame movies where the fighters have that type of control.

This is a classic example of the overkill culture that plagues America. Yes you can show and act with restraint even with adrenalin. Being a kid is no excuse, not if you plan to carry a knife and plan to use it. I can accept a self defence frenzy when there is no retreat (Saavedro chose not to retreat) or when yourself surprised (Saavedro knew this was coming, the fight intention was announced and he knew Nuno).

Perhaps it is only outside the US where fighters have that type of control, but it is by no means fictional.

SOFDC wrote:

Moments? So Nuno stepped out to fight and got the knife pretty much immediately.

Even if we take "Moment" to mean "Under 10 seconds"...well...if Goomba Leader, Goomba 1, 2, and 3 step off the bus immediately behind you and initiate combat without other warning, well...Time to fight pretty much immediately ain't it?

However there was no Goomba 2 or 3. While it may make the case easier to understand if you can imagine Saavedro fighting off hordes of bullies leaping from the bus or something else fairly similar. Fact is one attacker, another kid who was unarmed and made it his intention to start a fist fight, as kids often do.
Also Nuno stated his intention, not thats any excuse for his behaviour. Saavedro was not acting on the spur of the moment, as proven when he showed the knife earlier but kept knowledge of it from Nuno. Leaving the bus before the fight destination, back to Nuno, a known hothead, no attempt to get away. What happened was not unexpected until the knife was drawn.

SOFDC wrote:

CptJake wrote:As for 'having a knife proves premeditation'; get real. Lots of folks carry weapons, to include guns. That fact does not mean they are out to kill anyone. It means they are WILLING to kill to protect themselves. That is not a bad thing.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

You mean your couldnt misquote better yourself.
Having a knife on its own cannot be taken into account because of the right to bear arms. yet again Saavedro was a minor so I dont know where your laws stand on that. nevertheless the relevant point, carefully explained, was thw the knife was 1) concealed from Nuno 2) shown off to Saavedro's friends on the bus prior to the killing.
This shows that Saavedro was prepared to use it, in a specific rather than a general way, in other words premeditation.
He didnt draw the knife to scare off Nuno, not that I recommend doing that anyway. He attacked Nuno by suprise with it, knowing a fight would be coming and by all indications when.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BoyMac wrote:If you are thinking that 12 stabs is more then excessive and shows intent for manslaughter, when your adrenaline is pumping and you are fighting to protect yourself, don't you think that it is understandable that he kept going until he felt he was safe? It's primal instinct.

Primal instinct is ok for monkeys.

So you've never been in a real fight, have you? Consider yourself lucky.

CptJake wrote:So you've never been in a real fight, have you? Consider yourself lucky.

Be specific Cpt Jake, a fight where you could die. Thats what this really is. At 14/15 people have the ability to actually kill each other. Mutliple persons on one is an excellent way to do that.

The fact the victim attempted to get off the bus at an early location is excellent evidence, and properly used, that this was a self defense situation. It sets up the metnal state that this person reasonable believed they were in fear of imminent harm, and had attempted to exhaust means to avoid that harm without inmjury to anyone.

CptJake wrote:So you've never been in a real fight, have you? Consider yourself lucky.

Been mugged once, been in kids fights two or three times, I don't count those. I have met people like Nuno.

Nuno didnt think he was in a 'real' fight either, he and Saavedro had crossed paths before, Saavedro was still around. Nuno was shocked to find that he was stabbed, and rightly so, it was a total over reaction. I don't like bullies, but Nuno didn't deserve to die for being a jerk kid who picks fights with a smaller kid.

As for how I know one can and should have the ability to show restraint even in danger. I know this from knowing local police, people in the armed forces and shadier types. I also lived in East London for a while, and knew some classic tough guys. I know of 'nought to frenzy' but I also know that a real fighter doesnt lose control, they unleash and stop. Anything else is a deathmark. leading to prison or the morgue.
Saavedro wouldnt have touched the sides if it happened here, and I dont consider that a weakpoint of the legal system.

We do have very different laws on carrying weapons though, and those do go too far. Most of the knives shown on this thread so far except the tiny foldable one next to a coin would yield 5 years mandatory if found on your person in a public place, with a very tiny number of allowed exceptions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
The fact the victim attempted to get off the bus at an early location is excellent evidence, and properly used, that this was a self defense situation. It sets up the metnal state that this person reasonable believed they were in fear of imminent harm, and had attempted to exhaust means to avoid that harm without injury to anyone.

Saavedros lawyer certainly argued that point more successfully than the state attorney argued against. Fair play to that lawyer, he is going places. A lawyer who can get someone off a charge where they killed someone in broad daylight with witnesses will have great career opportunities in Florida.
The mental state is sets up can be debunked because of evidence that the knife was produced earlier showing an alternative mental state picture.

Nuno didnt think he was in a 'real' fight either

If you read the article that was lniked in the OP, not just the quote, you'll find that Nuno followed the kid of the boss with several other guys in tow, and clobbered him across the back of the head first, before he and his mates chased the kid down.

If he didn't expect a 'real' fight, why did he assault the kid from behind and deny him the chance to escape? He showed the intent to cause physical harm (the advertisement of the fight by other students also shows premeditation) and Saavedro was forced to retaliate once he was cornered. The fact he showed his knife to people on the bus, but used it only when he had first been assaulted and had his escape routes blocked proves only that he was prepared to defend himself in dire circumstances.

If you want, though, you can go and fight Nuno's case for him seeing as though his lawyers have declined to pursue an appeal; although if they can't see any point in appealing i'm not very confident that you'll get far in it.

The point of bullying is to get one's jollies from the deliberate humiliation and frightening of someone in a position of weakness.

If things go wrong and the bullied person becomes so fearful they lash out with lethal force to protect themselves, it is difficult to be sympathetic with the bully or to feel very punitive towards their victim.

Avatar 720 wrote:

Nuno didnt think he was in a 'real' fight either

If you read the article that was lniked in the OP, not just the quote, you'll find that Nuno followed the kid of the boss with several other guys in tow, and clobbered him across the back of the head first, before he and his mates chased the kid down.

You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

Avatar 720 wrote:
If he didn't expect a 'real' fight, why did he assault the kid from behind and deny him the chance to escape?

That doesnt mean that it was anything other than a usual kids tussle. Also attacking someone from behind does not deny their escape unless you grab their legs triop them or disable them.
It profited the defence attorney to paint a picture where Saavedra was in deadly danger. However Nuno didn't appear to have that type of rep and Saavedra knew him well enough to know that.

Avatar 720 wrote:
He showed the intent to cause physical harm (the advertisement of the fight by other students also shows premeditation) and Saavedro was forced to retaliate once he was cornered. The fact he showed his knife to people on the bus, but used it only when he had first been assaulted and had his escape routes blocked proves only that he was prepared to defend himself in dire circumstances.

First he wasn't cornered, secondly he concealed the knife from Nuno but showed it off to others. Looks like he was going to spring it on Nuno not scare him off with it. Nuno expressed suprise that her was attacked with a knife and himself attempted to disengage, according to eye witnesses.

Avatar 720 wrote:
If you want, though, you can go and fight Nuno's case for him seeing as though his lawyers have declined to pursue an appeal; although if they can't see any point in appealing i'm not very confident that you'll get far in it.

Nuno's lawyers, by that you mean state prosecutors. They fought the case once out of civic duty, they wont appeal.

If anything, this is a great case because it might go some way towards puncturing the smug invulnerability of most bullies I have encountered.

I'm noticing an amusing disparity in this thread between the positions of several people in this thread on various topics.

I think it says something about empathizing more with things that you can relate to. Not that it's a surprise to me, but I'm enjoying it nonetheless.

Get it, puncturing...

Actually, its more amusing that one person is espousing "getting punched in the back of the head" as a valid tactic to surprise somebody that you want to stab.

Andrew1975 wrote:It does teach an important life lesson though. You need to learn to stand up for yourself or you will be a target all your life.

One would think I'd not get suspended (and subsequently grounded) for doing what I was supposed to do from this apparent life lesson.

You can learn to stand up for yourself in more productive and less harmful ways. Being bullied has no practical value to me, and it certainly isn't teaching the bullies to be acceptable members of society. The worst part is that standing up for myself gets me punished (and depending on the bully it doesn't work) so I get left hung out to dry as the victim while my abuser suffers no ill effects from his actions.

Does that teach a lesson? Maybe. But that's a cruel and cold way to teach someone a lesson.

Orlanth wrote:You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.

Orlanth wrote:First he wasn't cornered, secondly he concealed the knife from Nuno but showed it off to others. Looks like he was going to spring it on Nuno not scare him off with it. Nuno expressed suprise that her was attacked with a knife and himself attempted to disengage, according to eye witnesses.

Saavedra attempted to get away once, after he had been punched in the head, so you are incorrect that he did not attempt to escape. That Nuno expressed surprise when the subject of his bullying fought back is ... not surprising in the least. Seriously, what do you Brits do when you get attacked by a bully? Turn the other cheek and take your beating (safe in the knowledge that the beating will not be life-threatening)?

The bullying from Nuno was bad enough that Saavedra would skip school or find other ways home to avoid the bus ride when he could.

Your contention that getting off a stop early was somehow an ambush is ridiculous, but may be born of some cultural confusion. Again, I'm not sure how things work in the UK, but a school bus isn't the same thing as the normal public transportation. It follows a set schedule of stops, but these stops are in residential areas, as the goal of the school bus is to return children to their homes, not cart them around to various public city stops.

Also, I suspect that in the UK, the term "estate" is used more commonly to refer to a large, expansive property. Here in the states, it is very common to see a subdivisions or residential communties with a fancy name like, "Riverrock Gardens" or "Golden Estates". This should not be taken to mean that the property or properties contained therein are actual gardens or estates.

For reference, here is the Florida statute (Stand Your Ground) mentioned in the article:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=0700-0799/0776/Sections/0776.013.html

Essentially, if a person is in a place where a person “has a right to be,” that person has “no duty to retreat” if attacked and may “meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.”

The judge seems to have correctly interpreted this law, so I don't see where there was any legal wrong-doing.

IcyCool wrote:

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.

First this was a school fight, picked on the bus. Not a death struggle in a ghetto.
Second Nuno had fought other kids before, including Saavedra, he did not have a lethal reputation.
Third it was with plenty of witnesses present, anyone who killed or seriously injured anyone would be arrested, as with what happened. Bullies usually dont cross the line, Nuno did not appear to be any exception, except as painted by the defence attorney. To check out what his school rep was like (which would be out as much as Saavedra had to go on) go to Youtube and type in Dylan Nuno.

IcyCool wrote:
Saavedra attempted to get away once, after he had been punched in the head, so you are incorrect that he did not attempt to escape. That Nuno expressed surprise when the subject of his bullying fought back is ... not surprising in the least. Seriously, what do you Brits do when you get attacked by a bully? Turn the other cheek and take your beating (safe in the knowledge that the beating will not be life-threatening)?

Also Saavedra's getting away once was indicated by the fact he left the bus early. He turned around pretty much as soon as Nuno attacked him, with the knife. Its all good word play by the defense attorney, as that still looks like relocation not a retreat.

I see no indication anyone else was helping Nuno, Saavedra showed his knife to people who presumably 'supported' him. This also appears to have meant nothing it was one on one. Not that a bus full of bystanders has anything positive to say about that community.

stabbing him 12 times is kinda excessive.

IcyCool wrote:

Orlanth wrote:You must be confused with another case. Lots of people were watching but Nuno attacked Saavedra alone.

I'm almost certain your confusion on this is tied to cultural differences. When a bully confronts you in a fight here in the states with several of his buddies watching, you can expect one of two outcomes:

1. You lose the fight and the bully beats you (possibly into unconsciousness, possibly life threatening, depending on how much "encouragement" the bully is receiving from his friends). Fighting back against a bully (who is almost certainly larger, stronger, and faster than you are) and losing makes the beating you receive far worse.
2. You start to win the fight, and the bully's friends back him up. The inevitable beatdown you receive at this point will likely be worse.

Maybe there is some sense of honor for you Brits when it comes to a fight with a bully, but no such expectation here in the states exists (outside of heart-warming underdog stories in the movies). In fact, death could very clearly be an expected outcome of such a fight in larger U.S. cities.

You forgot option 3
Your friends, cousins, or brothers intervene delivering the asswhopping of a lifetime to your attempted assailant, then taking you home to beat your ass too for being such a pussy.