Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Really? Am I the only person who lives by Keep It Simple Stupid? the more complex something is, the more likely something will go wrong

I agree on the whole, but some USRs have become so commonplace I think they need some variation, particularly Feel No Pain.
And 5+ cover saves are a must.

Joey wrote:

pretre wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Did anyone think that this maybe a fandex?

Not a single person in the 55+ page thread announcing it brought that up. Huh, weird...

Anyone who did that would have done so on a large 40k forum, we'd have had a source by now.

Not necessarily, I have stumbled across a couple blogs that seem to be rarely visited that have fandex's. Is it so far fetched that perhaps one of these hardly noticed bloggers threw together a dex of what they'd like to see in th 6th edition 40k rulebook? And then someone, either the blogger himself or an infrequent visitor, decided to screw with the 40k community and release it as a "leaked 40k rulebook"

The Crusader wrote:Just had a quik flick through. HOW F**KING COMPLICATED DOES IT LOOK???? I can literally feel my brain melting

So is 5th edition to the brand new player.

There are MANY games out there that are much more complicated than what is in the PDF. Most of those games are great. Sure, it takes a few play-throughs to get your head wrapped around everything, but they aren't needlessly complicated. The depth of those games goes well beyond where 5th edition is at. How many times have I heard that complaint about 5th? That its tactical depth is lacking. 8th Edition Fantasy was a complete re-write, and it's hard for me to find a player that would rather play 7th...Maybe Deamon players, but screw them Anyway, don't knock it 'til you try it.

It's really not that complicated considering how improved it is. Before being officially released, it would be play tested and rewritten accordingly. It's just going to require learning a whole new set of rules, the improvements (in my opinion) offset the hassle of learning the new rules.

Joey wrote:

pretre wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Did anyone think that this maybe a fandex?

Not a single person in the 55+ page thread announcing it brought that up. Huh, weird...

Anyone who did that would have done so on a large 40k forum, we'd have had a source by now.

You completely failed to see my point. I was poking gentle fun at King Pariah for saying something completely obvious that has been brought up about 100 times since this was originally posted. Way to ruin the whole thing by being oblivious.

Joey wrote:
This is the very first thing the consumer will read. It reads like it was written by someone to whom English was not a first language, or possibly a computer. Either way it's shocking.

Actually it's on page 22 of the book. After the basic rules that introduce beginners to the game. Once you've mastered that you move on to the full rules set which is the leaked document.

pretre wrote:

Joey wrote:

pretre wrote:

King Pariah wrote:Did anyone think that this maybe a fandex?

Not a single person in the 55+ page thread announcing it brought that up. Huh, weird...

Anyone who did that would have done so on a large 40k forum, we'd have had a source by now.

You completely failed to see my point. I was poking gentle fun at King Pariah for saying something completely obvious that has been brought up about 100 times since this was originally posted. Way to ruin the whole thing by being oblivious.

My bad.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:

Joey wrote:
This is the very first thing the consumer will read. It reads like it was written by someone to whom English was not a first language, or possibly a computer. Either way it's shocking.

Actually it's on page 22 of the book. After the basic rules that introduce beginners to the game. Once you've mastered that you move on to the full rules set which is the leaked document.

That's a fair point.

As a new player my head is spinning after reading this, I thought I was getting a good hang of the rules now. In my opinion this is an early playtest version. From reading this so far my orks are going to be killed in both shooting and assault, ccw's now have an AP of 6, WHAT? So now I can't even get a save in combat any more, unless of course I have eavy armor

ravenousork25 wrote:As a new player my head is spinning after reading this, I thought I was getting a good hang of the rules now. In my opinion this is an early playtest version. From reading this so far my orks are going to be killed in both shooting and assault, ccw's now have an AP of 6, WHAT? So now I can't even get a save in combat any more, unless of course I have eavy armor

Yes, but alot of units don't have CCWs. Like Guardsmen and Tactical Marines for one. only certain units have actual CCWs, the vast majority have only their shooting weapon.

I'd really like to stress to any new players reading that it only looks complicated. Once they clean up the presentation, it will actually be simpler to learn and play than 5th edition. The reason it looks complicated is because it explains all the actions a unit can possibly take, then separately explains how those actions function.

In practice it means it only needs to explain Defensive Fire once, and is then free to refer to it in the Deepstrike Rules, Overwatch, failed assaults, and any other special rules that will eventually exist. That means you will only need to know one rule, which can be applied to half a dozen situations instead of knowing a different rule for each.

I honestly don't get the complexity complaints. I had no problem understanding the book. The best explanation I can think of is that people keep reading parts of the new rules and trying to patch those parts over top of their understanding of how 5th worked instead of building their understanding of maybe-6th separately. Maybe it's because I only really came aboard in 5th, but these rules don't seem any more complicated or difficult to learn than the 5th edition rules did. In some ways, they're easier, since special rules are a lot more unified.

Where is the leak...also

Move....Assault....Shoot.


I hate it already that's ridiculous that totally disadvantages army's like grey knights destroys the use of pistols and assault weapons! I'm going to have to read it myself before I make any real judgements on it.

Jaon wrote:Where is the leak...also

Move....Assault....Shoot.


I hate it already that's ridiculous that totally disadvantages army's like grey knights destroys the use of pistols and assault weapons! I'm going to have to read it myself before I make any real judgements on it.

You should probably take a look at what you can do with pistols and assault weapons now...

Jaon wrote:Where is the leak...also

Move....Assault....Shoot.


I hate it already that's ridiculous that totally disadvantages army's like grey knights

Totally a plus in my book.

Definitely read it though, you may see some good things as well.

I think this is what is needed. These rules tend to take the advantage away from a good list (which can be downloaded) and puts it in the hands of good tactics. Instead of wind up and play armies you'll need something fairly flexible.

Leman Russ side armour 12...say it aint so (page 110)
Though it looks like it's easier to hit tanks, less likely to damage them.

Might be the author's plans for the future, but for now, the rules say codex overrides, and I don't see anything in the codex errata about it. So armor values still go by the codex.

It's listed somewhere else that Space Marines have 2+ armour save (then just after it mentions them having to roll a three or more) so yeah it's probably a misstype.

Jaon wrote:Where is the leak...also

Move....Assault....Shoot.


I hate it already that's ridiculous that totally disadvantages army's like grey knights

OH NOES!!!!!

Seriously, that's what your argument for hating it is? GK need a nerf.

Joey wrote:Leman Russ side armour 12...say it aint so (page 110)
Though it looks like it's easier to hit tanks, less likely to damage them.

That's how it was in third edition, when there was a difference between Battle Tanks and Demolishers. Man, and the Vanquisher Veteran tanks were so kick ass in that book. I wouldn't mind that change, but given the aforementioned power armor goof...

If there is any truth to what I heard on BoW, then it sound like the game will require a lot more tactical thinking, and rewards the use of jump and bike troops (able to assault 24").

Joey wrote:
And 5+ cover saves are a must.

Out of curiosity... why?

It's a pretty huge blow to most Xeno army (And we all complain they are too many SM player out there, don't we?).

I know there's no guarantee it's a real leak or anything, but I'm pretty damn worried for my orks atm... with cover save at 5+, tanks being so much tougher and the new multipe template rules, I don't think the Green Tide will be very viable anymore... most orks vehicles also rely heavily on cover to survive.

The same can be said for Tyranids or really, any low save army... we live and die by cover. And having a blanket 16% survivability reduction across the board is pretty damn harsh.... on top of CC weapon now having ap6 (Not that big of a deal, it's more the fact that it's one more thing on top of everything else) and nobz getting castrated too...

Let's just say I'm pretty happy to still have my marines laying around somewhere...

Lormax wrote:

Jaon wrote:Where is the leak...also

Move....Assault....Shoot.


I hate it already that's ridiculous that totally disadvantages army's like grey knights

OH NOES!!!!!

Seriously, that's what your argument for hating it is? GK need a nerf.

Err... are you serious?

So what you are implying is, this change is good because it nerfs GK, even if its to the detriment of every other race and in fact, 2 specific types of weapons? Do you really get your ass whooped by GK so hard?

I havent read the rules yet so I cannot make proper judgement, but I think its still unrealistic and weird that they would put assault before shooting.

Tarkand wrote:It's a pretty huge blow to most Xeno army (And we all complain they are too many SM player out there, don't we?).

I know there's no guarantee it's a real leak or anything, but I'm pretty damn worried for my orks atm... with cover save at 5+, tanks being so much tougher and the new multipe template rules, I don't think the Green Tide will be very viable anymore... most orks vehicles also rely heavily on cover to survive.

The same can be said for Tyranids or really, any low save army... we live and die by cover. And having a blanket 16% survivability reduction across the board is pretty damn harsh.... on top of CC weapon now having ap6 (Not that big of a deal, it's more the fact that it's one more thing on top of everything else) and nobz getting castrated too...

All this sounds bad on paper. In practice, your infantry are basically 3" faster, your sweeping advances are far more effective, you are less susceptible to No Retreat. While your vehicles are more vulnerable, your Trucks are now able to move 21" a turn (with Red Paint Job). It really doesn't matter how good my guns are if your transports get where they need to before I kill them.

Plus, all your Fast Attack slots have become tremendously power.

Jaon wrote:Err... are you serious?

So what you are implying is, this change is good because it nerfs GK, even if its to the detriment of every other race and in fact, 2 specific types of weapons? Do you really get your ass whooped by GK so hard?

I havent read the rules yet so I cannot make proper judgement, but I think its still unrealistic and weird that they would put assault before shooting.

The changes are good because they balance the game.

GK aren't heavily nerfed, they're still going to be a pretty competitive army. They aren't even really nerfed, they just might not benefit as much from the new rules as everyone else. Which is fine, because it gets everyone on more equal footing. GK still have great shooting, force weapons on everything, and now the storm raven, dreadknight, and interceptors are more useful, and they're the only army with any model that has the dreaded Overwatch ability. They're still a strong army, it's just harder to argue that they're overpowered.

As for the phase changes, they also come with a bunch of other rules and don't exist in a vacuum, so you shouldn't judge the entire system on that one snippet.

Posit wrote:

Jaon wrote:Err... are you serious?

So what you are implying is, this change is good because it nerfs GK, even if its to the detriment of every other race and in fact, 2 specific types of weapons? Do you really get your ass whooped by GK so hard?

I havent read the rules yet so I cannot make proper judgement, but I think its still unrealistic and weird that they would put assault before shooting.

The changes are good because they balance the game.

GK aren't heavily nerfed, they're still going to be a pretty competitive army. They aren't even really nerfed, they just might not benefit as much from the new rules as everyone else. Which is fine, because it gets everyone on more equal footing. GK still have great shooting, force weapons on everything, and now the storm raven, dreadknight, and interceptors are more useful, and they're the only army with any model that has the dreaded Overwatch ability. They're still a strong army, it's just harder to argue that they're overpowered.

As for the phase changes, they also come with a bunch of other rules and don't exist in a vacuum, so you shouldn't judge the entire system on that one snippet.

I think my main problem here is I am having a horrible time trying to decipher whats what in this leaked rulebook. With an apparent lack of an Index, I cant find anything of what I'm looking for. People keep saying "you should see what assault weapons can do now!" but I cant see...anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Joey wrote:It's listed somewhere else that Space Marines have 2+ armour save (then just after it mentions them having to roll a three or more) so yeah it's probably a misstype.

I also gotta agree with Joey, the wording makes it look so fake:

"DAMAGE
This section deals with the mechanics to damage the enemy. Being it the relentless torrent of fire of your line of troops (< WUT) the devastating chainsaw attacks of your commander (chainsword?), an arcane storm unchained (UNCHAINED? unleashed maybe?) by your battle psyker, or the precise fire of your hidden sniper; everything that wounds or damages your (you) and your opponent's models follows the rules in this section"


its just written so weirdly...

Ah, have you finally started to read the PDF? Woulda been nice to have you do that before you came here and complained about it

Lormax wrote:Ah, have you finally started to read the PDF? Woulda been nice to have you do that before you came here and complained about it

Now that I have brought forth a worthy argument, you ignore it and resort to petty insults? I stand by my original point, don't be so immature.

Back on topic: I am enjoying all the "ahhh that makes so much more sense!" moments that I and others are experiencing while reading these rules. Power Weapons now confer a 5+ invulnerable (which it fails to state, but I assume only is applicable in close combat, how will that affect wound allocation?) and that makes sense with Grey Knights and their swords now, when previously there was no reason to take them on power armoured troops other than the simple fact of being the cheapest option.

No, Grey Knights don't get the parry save. It's only on Power Weapons without additional rules, and Force Weapons aren't power weapons anymore, just AP2 CCWs with additional effects.


Also, as people seem to be silly: Assault weapons now count as additional CCWs on the turn you charge, so all Grey Knights with Storm Bolters get an additional attack on the charge. The Deep Strike changes are also a huge boost to Grey Knight Terminators, who can now Deep Strike without scattering as long as they're more than 18" away from an enemy. Since everything the Terminators have (bar the Incinerator, but come on) has 24" range, they can get to where they need to and do their job without worrying about scatter.

Tarkand wrote:

Joey wrote:
And 5+ cover saves are a must.

Out of curiosity... why?

It's a pretty huge blow to most Xeno army (And we all complain they are too many SM player out there, don't we?).

I know there's no guarantee it's a real leak or anything, but I'm pretty damn worried for my orks atm... with cover save at 5+, tanks being so much tougher and the new multipe template rules, I don't think the Green Tide will be very viable anymore... most orks vehicles also rely heavily on cover to survive.

The same can be said for Tyranids or really, any low save army... we live and die by cover. And having a blanket 16% survivability reduction across the board is pretty damn harsh.... on top of CC weapon now having ap6 (Not that big of a deal, it's more the fact that it's one more thing on top of everything else) and nobz getting castrated too...

Let's just say I'm pretty happy to still have my marines laying around somewhere...

The KFF took a nerf, too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Also, as people seem to be silly: Assault weapons now count as additional CCWs on the turn you charge, so all Grey Knights with Storm Bolters get an additional attack on the charge.

Sadly, the halberds count as two handed so they don't grant an extra attack so it's time to choose between extra attacks and I6 - probably lead to bigger, more mixed squads. If these are the rules, I'm going to have to consider purgation squads with psycannons and then leave my purifiers with just storm bolters so I can still take a good number of halberds but mix in some swords and falchions.