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Formosa wrote: Nice try old bean, you were the rude one, you never asked me to test anything, you simply asked me to play a game and what army i was playing, i never asked you because i had played you before under a diferent name and you tailored vs me that time too, i wanted to see if you would pull the same BS and you did, if the only way you can win is to dupe new players and cheat them... well

I was also refering to another game in my other post, but thank you for reminding me of this

You're still not getting it.

You agreed to play a certain type of game, even though you didn't want to. You also lied to your opponent about the type of game you were about to play.

You then claimed the moral high ground for lying to your opponent and tricking him into playing a different type of game.

You are quite clearly and unequivocally in the wrong here.

Kaldor wrote:

Formosa wrote: Nice try old bean, you were the rude one, you never asked me to test anything, you simply asked me to play a game and what army i was playing, i never asked you because i had played you before under a diferent name and you tailored vs me that time too, i wanted to see if you would pull the same BS and you did, if the only way you can win is to dupe new players and cheat them... well

I was also refering to another game in my other post, but thank you for reminding me of this

You're still not getting it.

You agreed to play a certain type of game, even though you didn't want to. You also lied to your opponent about the type of game you were about to play.

You then claimed the moral high ground for lying to your opponent and tricking him into playing a different type of game.

You are quite clearly and unequivocally in the wrong here.

lol Kaldor. You seem to think cheating is a noble and honorable way to approach a game with a stranger.

Personally, when it comes to it on Vassal, if someone even tells me their army before i even get around to making a list i simply drop the game and let them know that its not the right thing to do, on vassal.

Furthermore, in the instance i told you about, i was basically bullied into "telling" what i was bring or threatened with a No Game. Oh noes.
I still wont play that guy, and i know several other people who have had "game" experiences with him and wont play him either.

I know firsthand of one of the instances Formosa is talking about. Some gent asked him his army, and said "Oh i wont list tailor, but itll just make the game better"
Enter Nids vs tailored list.
End result? Formosa wiped the floor with him.


What you are saying, Kaldor, is its OK and FINE that one player CHEATS as long as both players "agree"

Furthermore, if that dude had never played tyranids before, how would he know what to tailor for?

If it was a case of "hey man, im new to 40k/vassal/my army do you mind telling me what youre bringing?" Thats ones thing. Its another thing for this:
"You BETTER tell me or ELSE i wont EVER play you EVER and ill say MEAN dreadful things about you FOREVER"

Remember, its mostly vassal we are talking about and the "real world" rules dont necessarily apply here as they do...in the real world.

Anytime a game gets digitalized, it becomes WAAC. It lacks that human interaction real TT games have which unfortunately also includes courtesy and maturity.

In my local group, we tailor for fun. Some guy's like, oh deathwing? I'll give all my genestealers toxin sacs then and I'll be like fine donkey-cave, I'll take 3 land raiders and still have fun.

What gets on my nerve is when someone clearly is clearly trying to have fun by winning instead of winning by having fun. It's like he sees your deathwing and suddenly spends the next 5 minutes building a triple vindicator list and follows up by being obnoxious about the rules the entire game.
I've only met 2 people like that and honestly, no one likes them anyway so hes "that guy" you MIGHT consider playing if everyone else had a game goin or you're just to courteous to say no.

Also, honestly, vassal has some of the worst, most kiddish players I've ever seen. Yes, there are genuinely good players both skill and manners that are great fun to play against but eh, it only takes one rotten slice of bread to make the entire plastic wrapped and sealed loaf inedible when you have a delicious sandwich right next to it, fresh and perfectly sanitary with the occasional fly you can just shoo away.

Basimpo wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Formosa wrote: Nice try old bean, you were the rude one, you never asked me to test anything, you simply asked me to play a game and what army i was playing, i never asked you because i had played you before under a diferent name and you tailored vs me that time too, i wanted to see if you would pull the same BS and you did, if the only way you can win is to dupe new players and cheat them... well

I was also refering to another game in my other post, but thank you for reminding me of this

You're still not getting it.

You agreed to play a certain type of game, even though you didn't want to. You also lied to your opponent about the type of game you were about to play.

You then claimed the moral high ground for lying to your opponent and tricking him into playing a different type of game.

You are quite clearly and unequivocally in the wrong here.

lol Kaldor. You seem to think cheating is a noble and honorable way to approach a game with a stranger.

A) tailoring isn't cheating. It's bad form, but not against the rules.
B) kaldor never condoned the tailoring

Seriously, one person being a jerk does not make it okay to be a jerk back. I don't care about the circumstances - the old adage about two wrongs not making a right is true.

Furthermore, in the instance i told you about, i was basically bullied into "telling" what i was bring or threatened with a No Game. Oh noes.
I still wont play that guy, and i know several other people who have had "game" experiences with him and wont play him either.

I'm not familiar with Vassal - is there a downside to No Game other than waiting longer for a game?
If not ... Who cares? If you think he wants to tailor, no one is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to accept every game offered. You chose to be put in the situation.

What you are saying, Kaldor, is its OK and FINE that one player CHEATS as long as both players "agree"

Again, tailoring isn't cheating - but actually, as long as both players agree breaking rules is fine.
"I know it's the shooting phase, but I forgot to roll for reserves. Do you mind?"
See? Broken rule, but if the other guy doesn't mind it's okay.

If it was a case of "hey man, im new to 40k/vassal/my army do you mind telling me what youre bringing?" Thats ones thing. Its another thing for this:
"You BETTER tell me or ELSE i wont EVER play you EVER and ill say MEAN dreadful things about you FOREVER"

Remember, its mostly vassal we are talking about and the "real world" rules dont necessarily apply here as they do...in the real world.

Yeah, online anonymity means you don't have to act like a normal human being. Thanks. I forgot that rule in the Internet Bible.

Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.


Also, about the internet bible thing, i cant tell if you are being sarcastic/serious or not....if you truly dont believe that people "change" when they get on the internet...then im happy that you are still an untouched virgin in a sea of internet "thugs"


Real life, real tabletop list tailoring is waaaay different than vassal tailoring. In vassal, if you say that you are going to play daemons, dont be surprised when your meq opponent puts 8 land raiders on the table.

As dude said, when the face to face is gone, its alllll about WAAC. Lets take another example. I started a 2v2, 2 necrons against 2 orks. For fun, as suggested by my opponent, i took orikan and a WW ctan, after he suggested it as being awesome against orks. I told him before the game what i was doing. We started the game, he went first and immobolised every single one of his ork vehicles. 4 rolls, 4 vehicles down. What should have happened (if it wernt for his fool of a friend) is we laughed it off, and started a new game, minus the WW and Orikan as simple as that.

On vassal, the people who /want/ to know what army you are bringing are the I WANT TO CRUSH YOUR FACE AND BRAG ABOUT HOW AWESOME AMAZING GENERAL I AM type people. They arnt friendly gamers. As its said, there is an unusually high number of TFGs on board vassal, and i theorize they (the TFGs) come from low FLGS areas whose FLGS has booted them...but thats just my theory

Hey, i may be in the wrong. But then so were the other 5 or 6 people who played the same guy, and all separately came to the same conclusion. Hm, odd how about 5-7 people came to the same conclusion, independently of one another about the same thing....

Also, just to further clarify, i play formosa in vassal. I know that he likes to bring tyranids. I like to bring necrons. If im trying a particularly spammy av13 list i will tell him Hey bring as much av13 penning stuff that you can, or ill say something like hey, mind if i bring a lot of so and so?

Youre right, there was NO gun held to my head. But it was either play a game, or none at all that day (It was, afterall, 2-3am my time)

Basimpo wrote:Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.

You should re-read A Note on Secrecy, page 92. Also note that it's not a rule.

Also, about the internet bible thing, i cant tell if you are being sarcastic/serious or not....if you truly dont believe that people "change" when they get on the internet...then im happy that you are still an untouched virgin in a sea of internet "thugs"

No, I'm aware that some people choose to become jerks on the Internet.
I'm also aware that those people are jerks. There's no requirement to do that. It being Vassal isn't an excuse to be a jerk.

Real life, real tabletop list tailoring is waaaay different than vassal tailoring. In vassal, if you say that you are going to play daemons, dont be surprised when your meq opponent puts 8 land raiders on the table.

I'm not sure how that's different, but okay.

Youre right, there was NO gun held to my head. But it was either play a game, or none at all that day (It was, afterall, 2-3am my time)

Oh, that's cool then. It's perfectly fine to play a game you know you won't enjoy so you can complain about it later instead of about a million other things at 2am.

Whatever let's you sleep at night. Just don't go around pretending that you were 100% right.

Basimpo wrote:Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.

It kinda suggests completely opposite. It even goes to say that full disclosure is the norm in tournaments.

Anyway, every group I've ever played with has always played full disclosure.
In my current group before start of the game we put all the units on table, go through all units and take time to explain/remind what special rules and equipment each unit has to opponent, so that there are no hidden surprises.

I would be willing to do secret lists with people I play with regularly. But obviously this would be something we'd agreed on beforehand and we'd have to come discuss how to handle transports, how to handle wargear that doesn't have canonical wysiwyg representation (teleport homers, different types of grenades, list is very long).

Luide wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.

It kinda suggests completely opposite. It even goes to say that full disclosure is the norm in tournaments.

Anyway, every group I've ever played with has always played full disclosure.
In my current group before start of the game we put all the units on table, go through all units and take time to explain/remind what special rules and equipment each unit has to opponent, so that there are no hidden surprises.

I would be willing to do secret lists with people I play with regularly. But obviously this would be something we'd agreed on beforehand and we'd have to come discuss how to handle transports, how to handle wargear that doesn't have canonical wysiwyg representation (teleport homers, different types of grenades, list is very long).

I think you missed what this thread is about.

Uhhh....how exactly did Luide miss what this thread is about?

Basically it depends on who you're talking to. If you list tailor constantly you won't learn how to get out of bad situations in a tournament as easily. I have All Comers Lists for 500, 750, 1000, 1500, 1750, and 2250 points. I only make changes BEFORE I know who I'm playing against. So my Imperial Guard army I take Melta vets. Oh I'm playing against Green Tide and those Meltas are not going to be anywhere nearly as good as flamers? I'm not a WAAC player so no I won't change my weapons. I understand that you get bored playing the same army over and over, so I do switch it up, but not after I know who I'm playing against. On the other end everyone I play against List Tailors. I play Mech and am not interested in playing foot guard, so that means that everytime I play against someone they go "OH WAIT" And after 15 minutes they suddenly have all meltas, meltabombs, and lascannons. I think that is silly and cheap (And I still end up winning most games, unless I play the Space Wolves who suddenly run 3 Long Fang Squads, even in 1000 point games ).

I wish I had gotten in on this earlier and saved myself the bother of reading so many posts...

The first thing that everybody is missing here is a definition for the term "list tailoring", so allow me to provide one.

You are making your list tailored whenever you give ANY thought WHATSOEVER to what the list is going to actually be played against. If you are going to a tournament and you know that there will be a lot of MSU spam and you do ANYTHING with that piece of information (like, say, throw in some missile launchers or autocannons), You are list tailoring. If you know that there are a bunch of marines at your local store, and you use this information to have ANY impact on your list, you are list tailoring. If you know that you're going to play a game against a foot ork commander next game and that information has ANY impact on your list, you are list tailoring.

Any list that isn't made inside of a pure hypothetical world, but rather uses any amount of information about real players and real armies you're actually likely to face off against is at least a partially tailored list.

If, then, basically all lists are tailored lists, then it's really a matter of HOW tailored do you make your list. It's just negotiating the proverbial price now. Let me be the first to say that if your stance is that some list tailoring is okay, and some list tailoring isn't, you're either being arbitrary, or being a huge hypocrite.

The other thing that I think people are missing here is that list tailoring is a form of player skill - one of the few places that player skill matters in a game of 40k. Knowing exactly what your opponent is going to bring and making the exact best list against your opponent in your codex requires a huge amount of skill. Certainly as much as any other aspect of the game.

The real question here, then, is should there be an artificial restriction to player skill? If you see 40k as a competitive exercise, your answer to this question must be no. Otherwise you're a huge hypocrite.

If you believe that there should be limits to 40k as a competitive exercise, because 40k is other things in addition, then it's a matter of making player skill suppression fall in line with HOW competitive you think 40k SHOULD be. Now you're being arbitrary. Why should SOME forms of player skill be used in SOME situations while OTHER player skill shouldn't?

As for me, myself, I fall in the latter camp. When people reach the upper echelon of player skill in 40k (which I happen to believe is actually rather easy), the only way that you can continue to ratchet up the difficulty level is by taking on handicaps. Handicapping one's self, of course, is the opposite of being competitive. While it takes a lot of skill to exactly tailor a list against an opponent, it takes MORE skill to win with a crappy list, and it takes way, way more skill even than that to play with a non-optimized list against a list which has been tailored against you.

Honestly, I feel much better about myself for having won this game (me with a non-optimized-against-WH, take-all-comers list against a list that was clearly tailored to beat mine) than if I had won that game with a perfectly crafted list to destroy my opponent. In this case, I feel better because I won on a higher challenge level, not because I was as competitive as I could have been. For me, placing winning with more difficulty over winning at all is something I arbitrarily have decided on.

Of course, I can in no way look down on people who list tailor without switching from me being arbitrary to me being a hypocrite. If I have chosen a certain set of morals, I can't be judgmental when other people choose a different set. I may think my way of playing 40k is better than the purely competitive way of playing it, but if my opponent is playing to the maximum possible congruency with the way he thinks 40k should be played, I'd be a jackass to criticize him. Or a giant hypocrite. Take your pick.

woops wrong thread

Basimpo wrote:What you are saying, Kaldor, is its OK and FINE that one player CHEATS as long as both players "agree"

No, I'm saying it's not cheating at all, and if you've agreed to it you shouldn't be surprised when it happens!

I think people sometimes get a bit hung up about having pure all-comers lists in games.

Certainly running a set list against anything that's thrown at it is an excellent and common way to play and you only come unstuck with that approach when someone tailors against you because they've seen your list before and 'tweak' there's.

But what I find equally good, though seldom played, is codex-tailoring, which has been alluded to before. So you know that your opponent will be bringing (say) Black Templars, he knows you will bring Dark Eldar. And so you both tailor your armies against the known opponent. the hard of reading may care to note that this is not the same as knowing your opponent's precise list. This has the added advantage of being more 'realistic' (because in most wars you do tend to know who you're going to be fighting, thoygh not the precise composition of the opposing force), though please note that I've put inverted commas around 'realism' as I do understand 40K isn't based on realism. The disadvantage of this approach is that the player with either the greatest variety of models for his codex, and possibly the player with the most flexible codex, will sometimes have an advantage. Playing someone I know well and like, I find this easily the most enjoyable approach as there is a stromng element of second-guessing in the list-drawing stage.

Minor list tailoring, where I show you my list and then you tweak yours but i don't get to change at all, is quite common, I find. usually where the tweaking player feels at a disadvantage skill-wise or codex-wise. I don't mind this too much, though I'd not do it myself, so long as there's not massive altering going on. Someone saying 'oh, you have foot orks, and swapping all his plasma and most of his melta for flamers' would receive the quizzical stare that is my equivalent of punching him through a window.

The pure list tailoring, where someone knows you'll be bringing an all-comers list and what that list usually comprises, is really the last resort of the desperate. Actually I think this can be okay if there's a huge disparity in skill between the players, but it's otherwise a pretty cheap trick really.

Kaldor wrote:

Basimpo wrote:What you are saying, Kaldor, is its OK and FINE that one player CHEATS as long as both players "agree"

No, I'm saying it's not cheating at all, and if you've agreed to it you shouldn't be surprised when it happens!

Exactly. FifteenHours merely asked which army he'd play against with no knowlege of the actual list, just as I and many other people would do at my FLGS and now that's studdenly "CHEATING" as if he hacked into Formosa's computer to take an advantaged peek at his list.

FifteenHours made it quite clear what the game was going to be. If Formosa didn't want that game then he could have just asked for the game to have different parameters (no army information), rather than lying and then hypocritically pretending that he turned the tables on somekind of secret con.

Ok so what im gathering in this thread is that some people are disclosing their lists before their opponent has even made theirs. therfore their opponent is tailor making a list to counter yours.

sorry, but thats kinda your own fault. present your list before the game starts.

Now if you say "Im playing Blood Angels" and a player makes a list to counter that, well I would encourage and HOPE my opponent does so, because it makes the game much more interesting and puts a true test to my skills.

seeing as how there is more than one way to go with almost every army out there, Someone isn't capable of making a list tailored perfectly against yours unless your

A: using too many stereotypical units for that army.

B. Handing him your army before he even considers building his.

If your issue is A.: Stop using everyone elses stuff. Yeah BurnaWagons rock, but they dont always warrant being used. Razorback spam will die to high STR dakka. TLDR: build better lists. or at least change it up.

Issue B: just quit doing it. Tell someone what army your bringing but dont hand them your list. if they ask, "I'll hand it to you before the game starts" and that should be sufficient. if they refuse they aren't worth playing to begin with. you wont learn anything from them.

rigeld2 wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.

You should re-read A Note on Secrecy, page 92. Also note that it's not a rule.

Also, about the internet bible thing, i cant tell if you are being sarcastic/serious or not....if you truly dont believe that people "change" when they get on the internet...then im happy that you are still an untouched virgin in a sea of internet "thugs"

No, I'm aware that some people choose to become jerks on the Internet.
I'm also aware that those people are jerks. There's no requirement to do that. It being Vassal isn't an excuse to be a jerk.

Real life, real tabletop list tailoring is waaaay different than vassal tailoring. In vassal, if you say that you are going to play daemons, dont be surprised when your meq opponent puts 8 land raiders on the table.

I'm not sure how that's different, but okay.

Youre right, there was NO gun held to my head. But it was either play a game, or none at all that day (It was, afterall, 2-3am my time)

Oh, that's cool then. It's perfectly fine to play a game you know you won't enjoy so you can complain about it later instead of about a million other things at 2am.

Whatever let's you sleep at night. Just don't go around pretending that you were 100% right.

If you noticed, i used the word suggest. Not, rules. Furthermore, i could care less about tournaments. That wasnt the topic of what I was saying.

If you are unfamiliar with vassal youll find its the norm that people choose to be jerks...

And as i prefaced my sentence with Hey, i may be in the wrong but...

Luide wrote:
It kinda suggests completely opposite. It even goes to say that full disclosure is the norm in tournaments.

Anyway, every group I've ever played with has always played full disclosure.
In my current group before start of the game we put all the units on table, go through all units and take time to explain/remind what special rules and equipment each unit has to opponent, so that there are no hidden surprises.

I would be willing to do secret lists with people I play with regularly. But obviously this would be something we'd agreed on beforehand and we'd have to come discuss how to handle transports, how to handle wargear that doesn't have canonical wysiwyg representation (teleport homers, different types of grenades, list is very long).

amanita wrote:Uhhh....how exactly did Luide miss what this thread is about?

This thread is clearly about the act of letting prior knowledge about the composition of the enemy army influence the composition of your own.
It also is about the order of operations, ie. one army-list being made before the other.

Luide talks about "Full Disclosure".
This is a separate issue unrelated to the above. Full disclosure concerns whether or not one should reveal his army-list to his opponent during the game. This is often done to prevent Deep Strike and Reserve surprises, and the playing of "shell games" with transports.
When Luide mentions such things as "full disclosure", "going through units", "explain rules", "no hidden surprises", "secret lists" and "WYSIWYG" it is quite clear what he is talking about....and that isn't List Tailoring.

I agree with Paitryn. If you show your opponent your list before the game starts and both lists are made, its your fault.

At our flgs, we find an opponent, agree on a point value, and then make our lists.

If I know i'm going up against space wolves, for example, I'll often take Ymgarl genestealers to kill his Longfangs. Occasionally, he doesn't take any longfangs at all! He'll drop pod everything but some thunderwolf cavalry.

We "tailor" our lists to break up the monotony of the armies. They never know if I'm swarming genestealers and hormagaunts, or if I'm bulking up on T6. I never know if I'm going up against 2 landraiders and 3 dreads, or devastator missle spam with laserbacks.

Each of us tailors against the codex we know we're up against, but since we have no idea what their list will be, it just keeps things interesting. You have to be able to handle anything anyway since they could do whatever they want that particular game.

Basimpo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.

You should re-read A Note on Secrecy, page 92. Also note that it's not a rule.

Also, about the internet bible thing, i cant tell if you are being sarcastic/serious or not....if you truly dont believe that people "change" when they get on the internet...then im happy that you are still an untouched virgin in a sea of internet "thugs"

No, I'm aware that some people choose to become jerks on the Internet.
I'm also aware that those people are jerks. There's no requirement to do that. It being Vassal isn't an excuse to be a jerk.

Real life, real tabletop list tailoring is waaaay different than vassal tailoring. In vassal, if you say that you are going to play daemons, dont be surprised when your meq opponent puts 8 land raiders on the table.

I'm not sure how that's different, but okay.

Youre right, there was NO gun held to my head. But it was either play a game, or none at all that day (It was, afterall, 2-3am my time)

Oh, that's cool then. It's perfectly fine to play a game you know you won't enjoy so you can complain about it later instead of about a million other things at 2am.

Whatever let's you sleep at night. Just don't go around pretending that you were 100% right.

If you noticed, i used the word suggest. Not, rules. Furthermore, i could care less about tournaments. That wasnt the topic of what I was saying.

so....you do care about tournaments...

Formosa wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?

Because you quickly work out what are the useful TAC units, and what are not. No one takes vanguard, no one takes devastators, no one takes thunderfire cannons, etc. If you just pick one list and run it forever, you miss out on opportunities to try all those other units in an environment where they won't actually suck.

Formosa wrote:"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

You acted like a douche in this scenario. You agreed to play a game with knowledge of your opponents force, then lied about it. If you didn't want to play a tailored game you should have just said so.

hahahahha. BUSTED!!!

The guy he was playing was actually me! I remember this unfortunate incident.

Glad to see that it isn't just me who thought he was a douche for doing this.

What he didn't mention in this post was that I asked what army he was playing because I wanted to try playing new units against an army I had never played before on that day.

What he also didn't mention was that he still played me. He never said "peace out" and he didn't leave.

Instead, he went off on an incredibly obnoxious and patronising rant about how "I have taught you a lesson now about tailoring your list" after I gave up on turn 2 because I had tailored my list to tyranids since I had never played them before and - surprise surprise - was getting creamed.
Yet he seemed to think it was an amazing victory, but I pointed out to him he had only won through pure deceit and it was pretty much akin to outright cheating. Nevertheless he kept taunting me and claiming he had "taught me a lesson." Then it got kind of nasty with him swearing and insulting my family etc so I just laughed and left. Far better things to do.

Kind of glad he has been exposed though.

Formosa, you seriously need to get a life and realise when you are wrong. Also, lying on a message board to try and make yourself look cool is really quite pathetic.

Nice try old bean, you were the rude one, you never asked me to test anything, you simply asked me to play a game and what army i was playing, i never asked you because i had played you before under a diferent name and you tailored vs me that time too, i wanted to see if you would pull the same BS and you did, if the only way you can win is to dupe new players and cheat them... well

I was also refering to another game in my other post, but thank you for reminding me of this

How exactly was I rude? You spent 10 minutes basically lecturing me on how you supposedly "Taught you a lesson about list tailoring" and became bizarrely aggressive when I politely pointed out that you had taught me nothing.

I am not sure if you are purposely lying or you have convenient forgotten what was said that day as it seems you do this quite often to people, which probably explains your regular name changes to be honest. Either way I have no idea why you would try and tarnish my name on an internet message board just because I tailored my list and openly admitted it before hand. You could've just walked away at that point if you didn't like it, but the fact is you chose not too.

To clear this up, here is how the conversation went:

"What army are you playing?"

"Tyranids."

"Cool, I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THEM so let's play. I am just looking for a fun game."


Now, this should be pretty damn obviously I am quite a new player having never played them. So why did you expect I would put myself at a handicap and run my all-comers tournament list?
Secondly, I admitted to tailoring my list a little (I wanted to try things like Hydras and Griffons against a horde army) after you revealed your list before turn 1, and yet you still chose to play me and I chose to still play you (though I probably shouldn't have been so polite). Why did you do this if you thought it was such a terrible crime? If you had an issue with it you could've just walked away.

Regardless of any of this, your taunting and torrent of abuse later on was completely unacceptable. Seriously, if this were IRL, you wouldn't have gotten away with this and if you do this in stores or gaming centres then one day you'll probably do it to the wrong person and get a punch in the face. Bear that in mind for your own sake please.

As for me doing it before...Really? Interesting. Maybe you are only saying that because you are the one getting a bad reputation on vassal now to the point you have to change your name on a regular basis.

Honestly, I consider Vassal a place to playtest lists and do it in a laid back community. It isn't anything else. WAAC? Not for me thanks.

FH

SDFarsight wrote:

Basimpo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Hm, i actually believe around the 90-100 page of the brb it suggests that you dont reveal your list until after the match is over.

You should re-read A Note on Secrecy, page 92. Also note that it's not a rule.

Also, about the internet bible thing, i cant tell if you are being sarcastic/serious or not....if you truly dont believe that people "change" when they get on the internet...then im happy that you are still an untouched virgin in a sea of internet "thugs"

No, I'm aware that some people choose to become jerks on the Internet.
I'm also aware that those people are jerks. There's no requirement to do that. It being Vassal isn't an excuse to be a jerk.

Real life, real tabletop list tailoring is waaaay different than vassal tailoring. In vassal, if you say that you are going to play daemons, dont be surprised when your meq opponent puts 8 land raiders on the table.

I'm not sure how that's different, but okay.

Youre right, there was NO gun held to my head. But it was either play a game, or none at all that day (It was, afterall, 2-3am my time)

Oh, that's cool then. It's perfectly fine to play a game you know you won't enjoy so you can complain about it later instead of about a million other things at 2am.

Whatever let's you sleep at night. Just don't go around pretending that you were 100% right.

If you noticed, i used the word suggest. Not, rules. Furthermore, i could care less about tournaments. That wasnt the topic of what I was saying.

so....you do care about tournaments...

What?

FifteenHours wrote:

Formosa wrote:

FifteenHours wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?

Because you quickly work out what are the useful TAC units, and what are not. No one takes vanguard, no one takes devastators, no one takes thunderfire cannons, etc. If you just pick one list and run it forever, you miss out on opportunities to try all those other units in an environment where they won't actually suck.

Formosa wrote:"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

You acted like a douche in this scenario. You agreed to play a game with knowledge of your opponents force, then lied about it. If you didn't want to play a tailored game you should have just said so.

hahahahha. BUSTED!!!

The guy he was playing was actually me! I remember this unfortunate incident.

Glad to see that it isn't just me who thought he was a douche for doing this.

What he didn't mention in this post was that I asked what army he was playing because I wanted to try playing new units against an army I had never played before on that day.

What he also didn't mention was that he still played me. He never said "peace out" and he didn't leave.

Instead, he went off on an incredibly obnoxious and patronising rant about how "I have taught you a lesson now about tailoring your list" after I gave up on turn 2 because I had tailored my list to tyranids since I had never played them before and - surprise surprise - was getting creamed.
Yet he seemed to think it was an amazing victory, but I pointed out to him he had only won through pure deceit and it was pretty much akin to outright cheating. Nevertheless he kept taunting me and claiming he had "taught me a lesson." Then it got kind of nasty with him swearing and insulting my family etc so I just laughed and left. Far better things to do.

Kind of glad he has been exposed though.

Formosa, you seriously need to get a life and realise when you are wrong. Also, lying on a message board to try and make yourself look cool is really quite pathetic.

Nice try old bean, you were the rude one, you never asked me to test anything, you simply asked me to play a game and what army i was playing, i never asked you because i had played you before under a diferent name and you tailored vs me that time too, i wanted to see if you would pull the same BS and you did, if the only way you can win is to dupe new players and cheat them... well

I was also refering to another game in my other post, but thank you for reminding me of this

How exactly was I rude? You spent 10 minutes basically lecturing me on how you supposedly "Taught you a lesson about list tailoring" and became bizarrely aggressive when I politely pointed out that you had taught me nothing.

I am not sure if you are purposely lying or you have convenient forgotten what was said that day as it seems you do this quite often to people, which probably explains your regular name changes to be honest. Either way I have no idea why you would try and tarnish my name on an internet message board just because I tailored my list and openly admitted it before hand. You could've just walked away at that point if you didn't like it, but the fact is you chose not too.

To clear this up, here is how the conversation went:

"What army are you playing?"

"Tyranids."

"Cool, I HAVE NEVER PLAYED THEM so let's play. I am just looking for a fun game."


Now, this should be pretty damn obviously I am quite a new player having never played them. So why did you expect I would put myself at a handicap and run my all-comers tournament list?
Secondly, I admitted to tailoring my list a little (I wanted to try things like Hydras and Griffons against a horde army) after you revealed your list before turn 1, and yet you still chose to play me and I chose to still play you (though I probably shouldn't have been so polite). Why did you do this if you thought it was such a terrible crime? If you had an issue with it you could've just walked away.

Regardless of any of this, your taunting and torrent of abuse later on was completely unacceptable. Seriously, if this were IRL, you wouldn't have gotten away with this and if you do this in stores or gaming centres then one day you'll probably do it to the wrong person and get a punch in the face. Bear that in mind for your own sake please.

As for me doing it before...Really? Interesting. Maybe you are only saying that because you are the one getting a bad reputation on vassal now to the point you have to change your name on a regular basis.

Honestly, I consider Vassal a place to playtest lists and do it in a laid back community. It isn't anything else. WAAC? Not for me thanks.

FH

Least you found a place for people to back you up and call you right...But heck ,even child murderers get support from strangers.

Basimpo wrote:


If you noticed, i used the word suggest. Not, rules. Furthermore, i could care less about tournaments. That wasnt the topic of what I was saying.

so....you do care about tournaments...

What?

You said; "I could care less about tournaments."

In order for you to care less, you have to care, at least a bit, beforehand. Otherwise how could you start caring to a lesser degree.

The sentence you should have used was; "I couldn't care less for tournaments", as in you are already at the lowest degree of "care" and thus cannot go lower.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Basimpo wrote:

Least you found a place for people to back you up and call you right...But heck ,even child murderers get support from strangers.

Was that really necessary? Really?

Basimpo wrote:Least you found a place for people to back you up and call you right...But heck ,even child murderers get support from strangers.

No one said he was right, in fact I've said the opposite.
I also said you were not right either.
And seriously, that comparison is extremely stupid.

In my group of friends, we know who we are playing before the game, so we can tailor for that army, but we still dont know what KIND of list they are bringing or anything, since it would be very hard to account for it all. IMO, in friendly games you can tailor to the ARMY, but not the list specifically since you shouldnt know before you made your list as well

Steelmage99 am i in the wrong thread? Is this YMDC? Correcting people over the internet is surprise surprise another "douche" internet "thug" thing to do.
Are you an english teacher? If so, what makes you think you can go out like an errant knight and slay bad grammar?
If you are not an english teacher of some sort, what makes you think you are qualified to correct people? The intent of the words i said was there 100% irregardless of how i said them.
Please dont try to side track people with inane, unasked for, and unqualified corrections that serve no purpose to further the discussion.

Basimpo wrote:Steelmage99 am i in the wrong thread? Is this YMDC? Correcting people over the internet is surprise surprise another "douche" internet "thug" thing to do.
Are you an english teacher? If so, what makes you think you can go out like an errant knight and slay bad grammar?
If you are not an english teacher of some sort, what makes you think you are qualified to correct people? The intent of the words i said was there 100% irregardless of how i said them.
Please dont try to side track people with inane, unasked for, and unqualified corrections that serve no purpose to further the discussion.

You asked, so he gave an answer. You could say thanks for the tip. I mean, it's not like I or Steelmage made somekind of ad hominem attack.

But as you said, we're getting side-tracked on grammar.

Billagio wrote:In my group of friends, we know who we are playing before the game, so we can tailor for that army, but we still dont know what KIND of list they are bringing or anything, since it would be very hard to account for it all. IMO, in friendly games you can tailor to the ARMY, but not the list specifically since you shouldnt know before you made your list as well

Indeed, list-tailoring is wrong, but there's nouthing wrong with army-tailoring.

Basimpo wrote:Steelmage99 am i in the wrong thread? Is this YMDC? Correcting people over the internet is surprise surprise another "douche" internet "thug" thing to do.
Are you an english teacher? If so, what makes you think you can go out like an errant knight and slay bad grammar?
If you are not an english teacher of some sort, what makes you think you are qualified to correct people? The intent of the words i said was there 100% irregardless of how i said them.
Please dont try to side track people with inane, unasked for, and unqualified corrections that serve no purpose to further the discussion.

I am not the one that corrected you. The poster that said; "So you do care about tournaments?" was the one.
I am simply the guy that explained the post you didn't seem to understand.

And you did indeed ask for that explanation. You wrote; "What?"....remember?

My explanation was carefully worded, polite and without personal attacks.


A personal attack would have been me saying;
"Your disregard for the rules of the English language is simply atrocious, and is a sure sign of a lesser mind.
Your lack of punctuation is a personal affront to all intelligent individuals, a group of people to which you clearly don't belong.
Your inability to properly format at text, so it is even remotely readable, is a testament to the failings of whatever institute of learning you, however briefly, have frequented".

....But I didn't say something like that.

I simply said;

You said; "I could care less about tournaments."

In order for you to care less, you have to care, at least a bit, beforehand. Otherwise how could you start caring to a lesser degree.

The sentence you should have used was; "I couldn't care less for tournaments", as in you are already at the lowest degree of "care" and thus cannot go lower.

I generally don't list or army tailor i have two types of lists my competivie TAC list (Terminators predators speeders) and my stupid fully DS list (5 squads of terminators 2 dreads in pods and 2 hqs).

Generally i feel not tailoring leads to more fun.

List tailoring in and of it self is just boring.