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I feel like there's already been a discussion on this topic, so I apologize if this is a repost. I'd just like to know what people think about list tailoring.

What exactly defines list tailoring? How much is appropriate (or acceptable)?

I'm of the opinion that minor list tailoring is fine, but it's difficult to draw the line. If you know you're playing against Eldrad, is it ok to leave out a psyker that would normally be included? If you know you're playing against Tyranid swarms, is it ok to pack a few extra flamers into the army? If you know you're up against an army with little to no shooting, is it ok to drop the disruption pods or KFF (normally auto-includes in their respective armies)?
The list of questions could go on, but you get the idea. Thoughts?

I am thoroughly against list-tailoring of any kind.

There I a guy in my game shop that I accused of list tailoring when I first started playing. He plays Orks and I play Tyranids. His guy piled 13 Burna Boyz into a Battlewagen, I asked around my the shop and everyone responded, "No, that's Ralston, he does that to everyone."

I've been accused of tailoring because I wait until we decide on point levels but when people look at my list it's the same formula every time (unless I am in a evolution stage in between formulas).

I'd say ask around if you think you have been tailored.

To me tailoring is just cheating.

For me, I do make adjustments to my list every time I play, but I do not know who I am playing.

If you bring certain things in your army for a particular opponent or army that is tailoring. And it is pretty obvious when done. I am also against it. Anyone with $ or all models can easily plan to outdo just about any list. It takes someone with some tactical abilities to make due with what they bring.

If it is an organised hame, and you both know what each side is using, armywise, then list tailoring is fine. It is even hard to avoid in this situation.

I think it's kinda dependent on how much advance notice you have, and what you know your opponent is playing. I mean, the general practice of my FLGS and gaming group is to write a list without knowing who you'll face. You can kinda build lists against the most common players (for example, most of the players at my FLGS run marines, so it's generally a safe bet to write a list to beat marines) but it's impossible to know who you're going against until you're there.

I mean, I'll say this, it's really cheesy to look at your opponent's list and then write a list to counter theirs. But if you're just building against a theme that's a common opponent, I'm fine with it. Force your opponents to change their lists up from time to time.

broodstar wrote:There I a guy in my game shop that I accused of list tailoring when I first started playing. He plays Orks and I play Tyranids. His guy piled 13 Burna Boyz into a Battlewagen, I asked around my the shop and everyone responded, "No, that's Ralston, he does that to everyone."

I've been accused of tailoring because I wait until we decide on point levels but when people look at my list it's the same formula every time (unless I am in a evolution stage in between formulas).

I'd say ask around if you think you have been tailored.

To me tailoring is just cheating.

Honestly I wouldnt consider burna boyz as list tailoring against Nids just because burna boyz are good in an all comers list. Its really hard to pin point a person and say he list tailors unless he takes a bunch of random wargear/psychic powers/units that aren't normally taken but have a strong effect against your army.

y0disisray wrote:

broodstar wrote:There I a guy in my game shop that I accused of list tailoring when I first started playing. He plays Orks and I play Tyranids. His guy piled 13 Burna Boyz into a Battlewagen, I asked around my the shop and everyone responded, "No, that's Ralston, he does that to everyone."

I've been accused of tailoring because I wait until we decide on point levels but when people look at my list it's the same formula every time (unless I am in a evolution stage in between formulas).

I'd say ask around if you think you have been tailored.

To me tailoring is just cheating.

Honestly I wouldnt consider burna boyz as list tailoring against Nids just because burna boyz are good in an all comers list. Its really hard to pin point a person and say he list tailors unless he takes a bunch of random wargear/psychic powers/units that aren't normally taken but have a strong effect against your army.

What would you think for a Inquisitor/SoB list that tailors against psykers?

I don't consider writing lists to match your group tailoring. There is so much stuff in 40k. If you have a group varied enough to represent it all, you're very lucky. That's an interesting gaming group. Most of us don't. I'm not taking stuff I know I dont need. But I do often take things that are nasty against lists I know I might face just in case. My Libby has Dark Excommunication for that reason. If my friend ever dares challenge my GKs with Daemons again, there it is. And I'll show him how I've wasted 5 points every game for a year just to screw with him one time lol.

On the other hand, this is the guy who played a 3k game against me (Eldar) and our friend (more Eldar) using his Space Wolves. He took one look at our armies laid out--at my JetCouncil and my partner's 2 Farseers--and said, "I think I need 3 Rune Priests!" THAT is tailoring. And cheese. Don't sweat making a TAC list that only includes stuff to be used against your group though. I think that's reasonable.

I have army lists for 1k, 1500, 1850 and 2k...

That is for both my DE and Tau. I dont care who is playing what the lists never change.... All my lists are TAC.

I dont even Venom pam with my DE... I think I use 6 at 2k. The rest are raiders...

I rarely use the same list twice as I like to tinker and see how I do with strange and wonderful units sometimes.

Having said that I rarely know which army I'm facing. All my main opponents have a nice mix of shooty and CC armies so I can't tailor a list.

One guy used to bring close to 4000 points to each game and write his list when he saw who he was facing. He didn't last long in our group.

What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

I come to a game always expecting to fight MEQ, and have written my list accordinly.

Is that tailoring? Well no...my list is an all comers list. Nearly all comers are MEQ. I can just as easily fight a tyranid horde, and I havent loaded all up on plasma or anything. Its more mindset than units (its very hard to accuse a GK player of tailoring anyway..).

If you've allowed your opponent to tailor a list off yours, its your own god damn fault. Keep your list a secret or, if its a full disclosure agreement, see that they write theirs first. I dont even see it as cheating. If people play to win, thats alright, they have every right to write their list the way they want it.

I am of course against someone going "I see you play GK and have a lot of transports, let me just change my list to add in some hydras" but if they are expecting to fight you, I'm all for them writing up a hardass list to fight me. Dont expect people to hinder themselves.

And in the end, you may end up accusing someone of tailoring when they actually just run that list all the time, the example in the OP being a good example.

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Exactly.

Our group plays a narative campaign. We know who we're fighting at least a week before the game and make our lists for that game accordingly. You bring one list, planned out before the game, and slap it on the table.

Both sides do it. Fair game.


I would be pissed off if I showed up to a game store for a pick up game and an opponent wanted to see what I was bringing before he made his list. THAT is a dick move.

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Because its cheating? If you know what your fighting and make an army to tailor it, you gain an incredible advantage, your opponent should get a fair bit of points to compensate.

Maybe if you and your opponent are ok with it before had, possibly. However some armies have too many specialist tools (like eldar) and its not right they get to 'guess' properly. You should have to take an all comers list. At the very least draw up your list before you come on down to the FLGS. Anything else is shady IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kronk wrote:

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Exactly.

Our group plays a narative campaign. We know who we're fighting at least a week before the game and make our lists for that game accordingly. You bring one list, planned out before the game, and slap it on the table.

Both sides do it. Fair game.


I would be pissed off if I showed up to a game store for a pick up game and an opponent wanted to see what I was bringing before he made his list. THAT is a dick move.

What your stating isnt list tailoring though, the second item you mention is what people assume when you state list tailoring.

I think we may be talking about 2 different things here.

1. If you're playing a campaign and you know who you will be playing on a given week, I'm OK with both sides making a list for the army they will be fighting. However, the list must be made before the event with no changing.

Is this OK or not OK with people?

2. If you're playing a pick up game, and see that your opponent is playing horde orks, then change out a few of your models/units immediately before the game.

Is this OK or not OK with people?

For me:

1. OK.
2. Not OK.

lazarian wrote:

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Because its cheating? If you know what your fighting and make an army to tailor it, you gain an incredible advantage, your opponent should get a fair bit of points to compensate.

Maybe if you and your opponent are ok with it before had, possibly. However some armies have too many specialist tools (like eldar) and its not right they get to 'guess' properly. You should have to take an all comers list. At the very least draw up your list before you come on down to the FLGS. Anything else is shady IMO.

What? I know I'm playing Space Marines, my opponant knows he's going to be playing IG...so he should get more points?
Or just anyone playing against me in general should get more points?
Or are you saying that people who cheat...are cheating?

Joey wrote:

lazarian wrote:

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Because its cheating? If you know what your fighting and make an army to tailor it, you gain an incredible advantage, your opponent should get a fair bit of points to compensate.

Maybe if you and your opponent are ok with it before had, possibly. However some armies have too many specialist tools (like eldar) and its not right they get to 'guess' properly. You should have to take an all comers list. At the very least draw up your list before you come on down to the FLGS. Anything else is shady IMO.

What? I know I'm playing Space Marines, my opponant knows he's going to be playing IG...so he should get more points?
Or just anyone playing against me in general should get more points?
Or are you saying that people who cheat...are cheating?

You shouldnt be at that step, you should already have an allcomers list before you guys go over what armies your using. This point cant be stressed enough, there are armies that absolutely gain in power by knowing their opponent over other armies. That is what is called an unfair advantage, thus cheating.

If it is the situation where on is just playing a friend and you are both comfortable and aware of each others armies and tendencies then certainly do whatever you two are going to do. Anything past that you need to have your list beforehand.

edit-grammar

Milisim wrote:I have army lists for 1k, 1500, 1850 and 2k...

This, except add in 1750 and 2500. When I go for a pickup game, I bring those lists and the models for all of them. (it helps that the 2500 includes everything the 2k list has, etc.)

I don't see a reason to take the time to make a list on the spot - rushed means you'll make mistakes with calculations (without AB/whatever).
Plus, you get down to rolling dice faster.

It is stupid not to tailor to a specific army codex if you know you are fighting it. Specific units, no. Specific army styles. Maybe.


Examples.

My opponent runs Orks so I'll take Captain Tycho (PE: Ork)

This is codex tailoring. Fine.

My opponent runs hordes. I'll take flamers over Meltaguns. Fine. Style tailor.



My opponent runs Daemons. I'll take Banishers, Dark Excommunication Libbies and Dreadknights( who have Dark Ex.) against a Daemon Army, when nothing else is antidaemon bar a NFW Inquisitors, is not right.

Taking loads of Flamers againt a Ripper Themed Army (Parasite, Rippers, Skyslashers only) is not right.

TakingNithing but Plasmaspam against Deathwing, Draigowing, Terminator Loganwing or Deffwing, is wrong. Though some may argue that against Draigowing its ok.

I'm in the midst of a 40k league and we know our opponents before the games coming up. A little bit of tailoring is to be expected - if I'm playing against Dark Eldar iI'll probably take a rifleman dreadnought (I didn't last night, but I should've!) or a devastator squad to counter a list that will likely have a lot of light armor. This is okay, and fairly general. Lists tend to be all-comers lists with a unit or two that will prove to be extra useful against that week's opponent.

I used to game at Pandemonium and one opponent asked what army I was running and asked to see my list. He looked it over and wrote an army list specifically tailored to counter every unit in the army. That was pretty representative of that player base.

Brother SRM wrote:I used to game at Pandemonium and one opponent asked what army I was running and asked to see my list. He looked it over and wrote an army list specifically tailored to counter every unit in the army. That was pretty representative of that player base.

It's easy for me to say this sitting hundreds of miles a way with the anonymity of the internet, but I would have told him what he could suck.

I honestly have no idea why I didn't react to it at all. I wouldn't need to get all faux-macho tough guy about it, but I should have called him on being a jerkass.

I don't ever tailor. Even If I know what opponent I'm playing.

If they tailor to me, then it will be all the more satisfying when I beat them.

When it comes to Eldar who have Farseers who are, you know, prophets, I don't see a problem with list-tailoring on their part. After all, that's pretty much fluff-appropriate for an Eldar army. They can see the future, they can foretell what they'll be facing, and deploy the appropriate troops to counter it. This is the Eldar way.

(Note that I have not played an Eldar army in close to 20 years, and even then they were not my best army).

For units without such abilities, eh, then it gets a bit more tricky. If you're building an army to specifically counter every unit the other guy is putting on the table... that's a Real Dick Move.

If you're just building an effective list that does well against the other's list, but is otherwise TAC, then you're probably OK.

kronk wrote:I think we may be talking about 2 different things here.

1. If you're playing a campaign and you know who you will be playing on a given week, I'm OK with both sides making a list for the army they will be fighting. However, the list must be made before the event with no changing.

Is this OK or not OK with people?

I'm okay with this. In fact, I think this makes it more fun, since you don't really know what they are bringing and they could surprise you. A non-horde type Tyranid list for example.

kronk wrote:
2. If you're playing a pick up game, and see that your opponent is playing horde orks, then change out a few of your models/units immediately before the game.

Is this OK or not OK with people?

I'd be okay with this as well, provided I get to make a few changes too. For example, I'm hanging out at the FLGS, looking for a battle with my models on the table. Another guy shows up and sees the models I have and wants a game. We agree on a points limit, he makes his army list, I make mine. I would ask what faction he was playing, but probably wouldn't ask what models he had. I'd just make a list that I thought would be good against his and would be fun to play. Then we'd bring our lists to the table and introduce our army, roll to setup, etc.

The only situation I would have a problem with is if he was actively making swaps as I was introducing my army. He sees I'm playing Necrons and writes up a fast assault list, then starts swapping out his assault guys when he sees Lynchguard with Mindshackle scarabs Lords in it.

someone trys to make me tailor my list after the games is starting.

my trygon prime comes up against some kind of GK OP thing and someone says *cough*make that a mawloc*cough*

kshaw2000 wrote:someone trys to make me tailor my list after the games is starting.

my trygon prime comes up against some kind of GK OP thing and someone says *cough*make that a mawloc*cough*

That's rather rude and underhanded.

If everyone had pre-made lists then you couldn't tailor, you simply choose a list before you know who you are playing and with a matching point value.

List tailoring is such changing your list to be more effective against the enemy. Taking flamers against hordes is one thing. Example: Guard player says lets play a 750 point game, I borrow friends dark eldar and make a list, the guard player (whom I've played dozens of games with) busts out a veteran squad with 4-5 flamers in a Valkyrie. He's never run it before, he doesn't even have the models for it, it's just so he could have a better chance to beat me. (for reference, I stomped him into the ground)

Any advantage gained by a change made after knowing what you are playing against is tailoring. It could be small like switching a unit out for another one, or changing a psychic power, or it could be BIG like bringing completely anti-demon tooled grey knights to fight a demon player.

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Pretty much. I'll usually write up a couple lists beforehand and might change things up if I know who I'm playing - however, if/when I do so, then I am sure to let them know what army I'm playing and give them ample opportunity to tailor against me as well. I don't tailor to specific units in their list, because neither of us reveals out lists until we're about to start. Also, I try to gauge whether someone's running a "fun" or "competitive" list, just so I don't get steamrolled unfairly (and because I hate to steamroll someone else outside of a competitive environment). I think this is more than reasonable.