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IMHO it takes more talent to win with an all comers list. If you have to tailor your list to beat mine, your basically telling me you dont think you can win fairly.

I played with a guy who tailored his space wolves. If I said I was playing necrons or if another guy was playing orks, his list will have several jotww among other things.

When I bust out my chaos list with 2 demon princes, a couple dreds and lots of plague marines in rhinos where jaws isn't as effective, all of a sudden he isn't using jotww

Same when he played against DE..... High initiative and lots of transports, and all of a sudden no more jaws.

I debated making a list for every army I own and telling him I will roll to see which army I use just before the game...

I only make and use take all comers lists and I only play space marines.

Since almost every list made is already inherently geared to be able to take out space marines, I don't really think anyone would bother specifically tailoring their list against me either.

lazarian wrote:

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

Because its cheating?

Oh please. Hyperbole much?

lazarian wrote:However some armies have too many specialist tools (like eldar) and its not right they get to 'guess' properly.

On the flipside, if all lists must be TAC lists, than only a tiny handful of weapons, units and wargear are actually useful. Why sideline huge portions of each codex?

I would say that there is two levels to tailoring.

-Tailoring against your group? That's ok. Why worry about how to maximize against Tyranids if there's no one that plays them at the club.

-Tailoring against an opponent after you now what they're fielding? Sure, if he can then tailor a new force against your tailor versus his original force...........in other words, no. It's bad form. Adapt on the run.

AegisGrimm wrote:-Tailoring against an opponent after you now what they're fielding? Sure, if he can then tailor a new force against your tailor versus his original force...........in other words, no. It's bad form. Adapt on the run.

Do you mean race, or specific list? I have no problem with saying to a buddy "Hey, next week my marines versus your guard?" and then we both have a chance to tailor our lists.

But looking over an opponents list and then tailoring your list specifically is bad form.

I'm opposed to tailoring a list to face your opponent's specific list. I'm all in favor of it when it comes to tailoring for a specific army or player, on the other hand, so long as they had the same chance to do so to you.

Kaldor wrote: I have no problem with saying to a buddy "Hey, next week my marines versus your guard?" and then we both have a chance to tailor our lists. But looking over an opponents list and then tailoring your list specifically is bad form.

Jimsolo wrote:I'm opposed to tailoring a list to face your opponent's specific list. I'm all in favor of it when it comes to tailoring for a specific army or player, on the other hand, so long as they had the same chance to do so to you.

This is pretty much how my local gaming group plays it, too. We know who has which army, we all have a general idea about each other's preferences, but our lists are generally made double-blind and before the battle, so you never know exactly what you're going to be facing until after you've committed to your list. You need to keep a take-all-comers core to your army to deal with any surprises, but can customize specific loadouts to what you anticipate your opponent will field.

My FLGS league games are set up to prevent tailoring. each player must have paid their dues and submitted their final list for the month before they are allowed to see what others have submitted. also, the first game each month is entirely random. about the only tailoring that can be done is for the objectives, which are posted a week in advance.

Stormfather wrote:This is pretty much how my local gaming group plays it, too. We know who has which army, we all have a general idea about each other's preferences, but our lists are generally made double-blind and before the battle, so you never know exactly what you're going to be facing until after you've committed to your list. You need to keep a take-all-comers core to your army to deal with any surprises, but can customize specific loadouts to what you anticipate your opponent will field.

This is so much more an interesting way to play things than simply having a single TAC list. All of a sudden, certain options in the codex become more attractive, and you can buy and use those interesting units that the internet tells us are less than optimal. It really throws a whole other spin on things.

Further, it's exactly how they do things in White Dwarf battle reports, choosing units and wargear based on the opposition army.

I think it's perfectly acceptable to list tailor, so long as it's within good humour.

I mean - I am sure that if you arrange a game for next week or whatever, and it's against marines, you're going to take plasma/power weapons... would you do so against Guard? I doubt it...

But it can cross a line I guess...

I don't see how it can be fair if someone asks to see your list first then creates theirs specifically to play against yours. They get a possibly huge advantage. That's not fun or fair for the person on the receiving end in my opinion.

I used to play this one fella who'd always ask me what army I was going to bring - found out he'd ask other people for as many details as possible in regards to what units and options I'd have. Invariably when I showed up he would have an army specifically tailored to beat mine. Eventually I then would say Im bringing army X but show up with army Y. That made him finally stop tailoring his lists.

If we're talking about actually reading a list and altering yours down to minute details to take it out - yeah, that's pretty dickish.

I think tailoring a list, aware of what models your opponent probably has and of his army choice - that's okay and quite normal.

Do you mean race, or specific list? I have no problem with saying to a buddy "Hey, next week my marines versus your guard?" and then we both have a chance to tailor our lists.

But looking over an opponents list and then tailoring your list specifically is bad form.

Sorry, that's what I meant, but didn't write it right. List, not race.

I think that there is a level to which it is acceptable, but it can be taken too far. For example an Eldar player swapping out a unit of Banshees for Striking Scorpions because they are facing Orks instead of marines, or swapping meltaguns for flamers aganst Nids is only sensible. However, looking at your opponents specific list and writing a list specifically designed to counter it is bad form.

It really annoys me that, except for tournaments, I rarely see meltas in the other army anymore - they're always swapped out for flamers when my opponent learns I'm playing nids. That's why I prefer pre-written lists.

rigeld2 wrote:It really annoys me that, except for tournaments, I rarely see meltas in the other army anymore - they're always swapped out for flamers when my opponent learns I'm playing nids. That's why I prefer pre-written lists.

Why shouldn't they be swapped out though? Against 'nids meltas are nowhere near as useful as flamers are.

Castiel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It really annoys me that, except for tournaments, I rarely see meltas in the other army anymore - they're always swapped out for flamers when my opponent learns I'm playing nids. That's why I prefer pre-written lists.

Why shouldn't they be swapped out though? Against 'nids meltas are nowhere near as useful as flamers are.

... Exactly my point. Me swapping out the Rupture Cannons my Tyrannofexes have for, say, a Fleshborer Hive, when fighting foot IG, would be a dick move. So would dropping Hive Guard and picking up Pyrovores.

Pre-written lists prevent those shenanigans.

It's more fun to have a list that can do pretty well against everyone in your local group, with just a little tweaking if you then know the general race you are going up against in the upcoming game.

Further tailoring than that is really like putting a game on "easy" just before you fight a boss.

Kaldor wrote: I have no problem with saying to a buddy "Hey, next week my marines versus your guard?" and then we both have a chance to tailor our lists.

But looking over an opponents list and then tailoring your list specifically is bad form.

This is exactly what I think. It opens up all sorts of different options in a codex. For example, when fighting other 'Nids, or someone I know doesn't spam transports, it's a shame to waste two elite slots on hive guard.

I think there are two different things at play here. "List Tailoring", where you build a list to counter your opponents list, and "Meta-Gamin", where you change your list depending on who you are expecting to faces, but still turn up with a prefab list.

Henners91 wrote:I think it's perfectly acceptable to list tailor, so long as it's within good humour.

I mean - I am sure that if you arrange a game for next week or whatever, and it's against marines, you're going to take plasma/power weapons... would you do so against Guard? I doubt it...

But it can cross a line I guess...

The whole point of an all-comers list is to make a list that can do well no matter what army you are facing...I would not take out my plasma/ PW if I were facing guard, and I would not auto include flamers against nids....

I make a list at a certain point cost that I think can do well against different army types, and I play that list no matter which army im playing.

Sure lists change when your trying new stuff out or whatever, but its a d-bag move to tailor your list against your opponents specific army unless it was already agreed upon. Thats my 2 cents.

Is it bad when you have to pull out one army, and then have to pull out another one just before the game, because you know your opponent has tailored his list?

rigeld2 wrote: Me swapping out the Rupture Cannons my Tyrannofexes have for, say, a Fleshborer Hive, when fighting foot IG, would be a dick move.

No, it's sensible and legitimate.

If you knew you were fighting the IG say, a day or two beforehand, and didn't have his list, only knew based on hearsay or word of mouth what his army was. That would be a "soft tailor" which is also known as metagaming. Which is fine. It's stupid to gimp your list by trying to be "all-comers" when "all-comers" in your local club means smurfs, wolf smurfs, red smurfs, grey smurfs and maybe green smurfs. Obviously in this case, you wouldn't start chucking in random flamers into your list just to "round it out".

What would be a douche move would be stealing a look at the exact list beforehand and carefully analyzing and countering everything on it half an hour before the game. Like, walking into the store and looking at his list and pulling out a notepad and changing your list. Because if you're allowed to do that, what's stopping him from doing it to your hastily drawn-up list immediately after? Then you do it and then he does it and then you do it and thenandthenandthenhamburgerswithracoonmeatandthenweneedtogodeeper.

I don't see anything wrong with swapping out wargear (within reason) before a game, but switching up entire UNITS? That's not cool.

Wargear swapping is just smart play. Things like switching out a meltagun marine for a flamer marine when you find out you're up against a horde army is fine, but something like switching a predator for a vindicator in the same situation is over the line.

rigeld2 wrote:

Castiel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:It really annoys me that, except for tournaments, I rarely see meltas in the other army anymore - they're always swapped out for flamers when my opponent learns I'm playing nids. That's why I prefer pre-written lists.

Why shouldn't they be swapped out though? Against 'nids meltas are nowhere near as useful as flamers are.

... Exactly my point. Me swapping out the Rupture Cannons my Tyrannofexes have for, say, a Fleshborer Hive, when fighting foot IG, would be a dick move. So would dropping Hive Guard and picking up Pyrovores.

I don't know what those weapons and units do, so I can't comment on that example. But against a Tyranid army a flamer is far more useful and 5 points cheaper than a melta. Why should I spend more points and put myself at a tactical disadvantage against you just because you don't like it. You play a horde army with no transports, why the hell would I take meltas against that when they are fairly redundant against 'Nids?

There is a difference between swapping a couple of weapons in units to make them more useful in the battle to come and writing a list with the specific intention of countering another persons list. One is common sense, the other is a dick move.

For the reason that you are gaining spare points. If you have 30 Meltaguns at 5pts each, and swap them for flamers, you gain 60pts. That affords a whole new Predator, Techmarine or Land Speeder.


And the same for others. If I swap a 10 man Terminator Squad with all Chainfists, and 2 CML for 10 Sternguard in a Pod, because you play Gunlines, then that also frees up points for another hundred or so points for a Libby with Force Dome.


If it is a pickup and play game, then write a list serperately from your opponent and use it. Its even better against someone you don't know. Don't klet them know what army you play if you don't know theirs.

If it is an arranged ame, pregame tailoring to your opponent's style, Ie, Hordes, Gunline, Nidzilla, MEQ, etc, Is perfectly legitimate and hard to avoid at all.

Castiel wrote:There is a difference between swapping a couple of weapons in units to make them more useful in the battle to come and writing a list with the specific intention of countering another persons list. One is common sense, the other is a dick move.

There really isn't a difference.

Yes, you have non-optimal weapons in your army. I don't see the downside to that, as *everyone* will. It's not like the Meltaguns are completely useless - they'll still cause wounds. They just aren't as LOL as flamers.

Why do you feel the need to swap out wargear?

As far as the Rupture cannon/Fleshborer thing - the former is a STR10 2 shot weapon. The latter is a STR4? (iirc) 20 shot weapon. One is fairly useless against footguard. The other would be much better, and cheaper.

I just don't understand the problem with making a TAC list and sticking with it. Unless by swapping the Meltas out you just don't spend the extra points - I'd be okay with that.

tbh i dont disclose what army im fielding in advance ever to my opponent. If at the club or in the store i ask to see the list at the same time as my opponent gets to see my list, that way no tailoring occurs. If you are stupid enough to declare what faction youre fielding in advance you should take the hit of letting your opponent tailor their list.

Fortunately im able to keep people guessing as i can potentially field a choice from multiple factions. That way no one really knows what im going to be playing. If i play a random game in the store i dont even open my case until the lists are on the table that way im not declaring my faction...

rigeld2 wrote:Unless by swapping the Meltas out you just don't spend the extra points - I'd be okay with that.

That was what I meant. There is no point taking the melta when the flamer will do a better job in the situation. Why would a Space Marine take a meltagun against Tyranids when he knows that the flamer is more effective?

rigeld2 wrote: Unless by swapping the Meltas out you just don't spend the extra points - I'd be okay with that.

To me, at least, a 5 point flamer vs a horde list is worth exactly the same as a 10 point melta vs a mechanized list.

If you're going to swap out weapons, fine - like I said, that's smart play. But if you use the points from taking cheaper wargear to pick up another unit, that falls under "switching out units entirely" and is over the line.

The way I figure it is this - every army has an armory where they store their wargear. Since there's no fog of war in 40k, we know pretty much exactly what we're going to be facing. We have time to stop at the armory and trade our meltas for flamers, but we don't have time to wait for another unit to show up before we have to get deployed in position for the battle.

Edit: I R Kan Grammer Gud. Herp Derp.