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First, what is considered list tailoring?
If I knew my friend was playing IG and he knew I was playing Necrons, would it considered list Tailoring for me to bring Scarabs? He might run a foot guard list or mech heavy list, I wouldn't know that fact in advance I would only know the only the points limit and the Army he was fielding. Of course he could bring Hellhounds and other flamer/blast templates if he though I was going to bring scarabs.
To me, that isn't list Tailoring, its just bring a units you feel will be most effective against certain army's.

What I considered List Tailoring to be, is knowing what units your opponent has bought then making a list based on that knowledge. Like if you opponent had is army out, waiting for a game and you just made list solely based on countering his units.

list tailoring gets in these weird counter tactic cycles of like

'Oh guard guy is taking all infantry blobs with lascannon teams? Next I'll load out on heavy bolters and foot.
Oh space marine guy loaded out on heavy bolters and foot? Next I'll load out on ordnance and plasma.
Oh guard guy loaded out on ordnance and plasma? Next I'll field heavy tanks and scouts.
Oh space marine guy loaded out on heavy tanks and scouts? Next I'll field heavy flamers and meltas.' and so on.

Just take a tac list all the time and not have to buy 5 variant lists worth of models and magnetize every pair of arms to keep up with the joneses.

I guess it really depends IMHO. In my gaming group we are all just friends from the same work office, we have:

Tau
Orks
Eldar
IG
Nids
Space Marines
Chaos

So it's a pretty diverse group. However, the way we do it is you know the teams the week before (we play on Sundays 3v3) and that gives you a full week to prepare a team strategy. We play a 3v3, and almost everyone has a multitude of lists from swarm to mech. Yes, we cater a bit since we do know who the enemy races we are playing against...hell that is a bit of the point. However, everyone has the ability to field a list that we have never seen before, or field 1 of 3 lists that could break our tailoring. Additionally, "in the moment" tailoring is entirely forbidden. If your team sees that you switched up all your upgrades after watching the enemy deploy, they will usually (and have) called people out before. Than again though, it helps when all of you are friends first, and Warhammer buddies second.

Steelmage99 wrote:I am thoroughly against list-tailoring of any kind.

Agreed. It is completely unacceptable to list tailor if someone tells you their list, tells you their army, etc. You should ALWAYS use all-comers lists.

Can you tailor for an opponent in a tournament? No. So what makes it ok for a casual game?

For me there is only 1 exception: You and your partner discuss and agree to this specifically beforehand.

There is a reason to share armies beforehand: some armies have natural "less-fun" match-ups (ex: Tyranid vs Dark Eldar... Tyranid is at a strong disadvantage no matter the list). The person sharing a list is being respectful, and shares in the spirit of encouraging balance. One should not disrespect that generosity with an insult such as tailoring.

Saying you are trying to be "efficient" or "logical" is just an excuse to avoid blame for doing something disrespectful. Akin to a bum begging for money, a donor putting $10 in the cup, and the bum then blaming the donor for getting them drunk.
List tailoring without prior discussion has no excuse.

I personally have no room for those kind of players in our gaming group. It is my observation the best games are close ones, hard fought wins. Tailoring encourages lopsided wins. How fun is that for either side?

Be honest with yourself.

s00nertp wrote: You should ALWAYS use all-comers lists.

How atrociously dull.

s00nertp wrote:Saying you are trying to be "efficient" or "logical" is just an excuse to avoid blame for doing something disrespectful...

Be honest with yourself.

lol, nope. Turning up to a blind match and then tailoring your list against your opponent while they are stuck with their own list is a bit crap. You're getting an advantage they can't have.

But any game agreed upon the week before should utilise list tailoring. It should be the norm, it IS how battle reports in WD are written, and even some tournaments are starting to come on board with it by allowing side-board lists.

It should never be considered disrespectful.

We have 1 nid, 3 ork, 3 sm, 1 sw, 1 BA, 1 Eldar, 1 csm, 1 GK, 2 Tau, and 2 IG players in our club. Everyone makes a list and shows up ready to play. Then roll dice to see who plays who and then we roll the mission and off we go. Anyone tailoring a list is gonna need a crystal ball.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I highly recommend this format. Entering our second year and everyone seems to enjoy it.

Having just come in, I reckon there is a consensus here. Generally, everyone agrees that looking at someone else's list THEN creating your own list, is tailoring (cheating - where that is defined as getting an unfair advantage).

There is a difference of opinion on whether tailoring vs generic armies or your local meta is ok, but generally the comments against seem to be focussed more on the principle of a TAC list. This seems to be a discussion about everyone should run TAC, vs everyone can tailor against their meta.

I reckon that the key thing is whether both players have the same opportunity. If I know the other player is playing <insert army>, then it is fair for them to know I'm playing <insert army>.

If I have their complete list, they can have my list. We can both tailor to our hearts content, but can't change once we show up to play.

As for TAC - if you have to play with the list you show up with, you have a TAC list. It just may not work .

As has been mentioned several times, part of the attraction and interest in 40k is to get units that may not make it onto the table, on the table. For me, that means having the opportunity to change the list I play - not unfairly though.

Then the strategy and mind games really begin - "I know their list, they know mine, so I think they'll change x, I'll change y and throw in Z) and suddenly you have a new strategy for existing units, or a couple of units you haven't used before (if you have the models!!)

If it takes equal opportunity list tailoring to get that - I'm all for it.

The best way to run a game is to ONLY agree to the points cost.

It shouldn't matter the army just the points.


I would go as far as to say for optimum fairness to roll for mission and what not and then produce a list to your opponent.

Kaldor wrote:

s00nertp wrote: You should ALWAYS use all-comers lists.

How atrociously dull.

My lists are always changing depending on my mood, cool new purchases that I just painted up, etc. My personal preference is to keep 4 or 5 general all-comer lists per army. All of them balanced. I show up blind & know I'll get a great game in with anyone.

My only point is I make the list beforehand and will not modify it when someone tells me their army, what they are bringing, etc. It stays the same.

None of the 25+ tournaments and in my area allow tailoring lists during the tournament.

In the spirit of "the love of the game", I appreciate you sharing your view.

I'll chime in here as well - List Tailoring to me is a person who looks at your army set up on it's tray, or while you're unpacking, then writes up a quick 'counter' list for everything he sees. "Ooh, a land raider, i better put a 4x melta honor guard squad in here...hrm, he's also got terminators. I normally run missiles on my devastators but today they'll be PLASMA cannons...yeah.." etc, etc. An obvious change from a usual list to specifically counter specific models they see you're going to field.

As an interesting side note, I have a regular opponent who just hates to lose. He cringes at the thought, and is notorious for the above practices. Many times he's the only person around for a game so i've had to adapt to his crappy behavior - I put models out on my tray that aren't even in my list to throw him off, then before the game starts i pull the 'extras' away and all the stuff he took to kill it is now much less useful.

As far as knowing what codex your opponent is using and building a list to generally do well vs that army, that's OK....under the stipulation that both players have the time to do so. If one guy shows up with a deathwing army and says "who wants a game?" it's bad form to build an anti-deathwing list, because he brought his list unprepared for any specific opponent.

If more people played this hobby like a game instead of a sport you'd see many fewer topics of this nature floating around. Sadly, the needs to WIN and roflstomp are strong for many wargamers.

I usualy have a list tailored against mechspam and a list tailored more against infantry, and intend to use one or the other depending on who I'm facing.
I then invariably throw them both out of the window and use my fluffy list that is great fun to play but always gets me killed. :-)

Daedricbob wrote:I usualy have a list tailored against mechspam and a list tailored more against infantry, and intend to use one or the other depending on who I'm facing.
I then invariably throw them both out of the window and use my fluffy list that is great fun to play but always gets me killed. :-)

Dude... that avatar...

Daedricbob wrote:I usualy have a list tailored against mechspam and a list tailored more against infantry, and intend to use one or the other depending on who I'm facing.
I then invariably throw them both out of the window and use my fluffy list that is great fun to play but always gets me killed. :-)

This!

If you change up your list every time you play, no one can tailor against you. (based on pre-existing knowledge)

Let's say you play against a guy called Brad every week.
Every week Brad brings the same army.
If he beats you, you put different units in your army to counter how he just beat you.
This is list tailoring, but it is fair.
The next time you play Brad, you may win because of how you tailored your army against his, and that he didnt change his list.

However, if Brad changes his list every week, it is impossible to tailor against him. Brad should bring a list one week. Then forsee what units you will take to counter that army, and take the counters to THOSE units in his army.

Moral of the story is, dont bring the same army every week.

If I KNOW I'm going to be playing a bunch of terminators, of COURSe I'm going to bring as much plasma as I can. The counter to this is to not bring terminators every week.

Phragonist wrote:If you change up your list every time you play, no one can tailor against you. (based on pre-existing knowledge)

Let's say you play against a guy called Brad every week.
Every week Brad brings the same army.
If he beats you, you put different units in your army to counter how he just beat you.
This is list tailoring, but it is fair.
The next time you play Brad, you may win because of how you tailored your army against his, and that he didnt change his list.

However, if Brad changes his list every week, it is impossible to tailor against him. Brad should bring a list one week. Then forsee what units you will take to counter that army, and take the counters to THOSE units in his army.

Moral of the story is, dont bring the same army every week.

If I KNOW I'm going to be playing a bunch of terminators, of COURSe I'm going to bring as much plasma as I can. The counter to this is to not bring terminators every week.

Indeed. Going for TAC list each time is taking a great part out of the hobby- designing lists. You don't have to create an entirely new and original list each and every game, but going to the other extreme by taking the same list to the same club over and over again is only inviting lists to be tailored against yours- anything else would be an act of charity.

Joey wrote:What's wrong with tailoring? If you know who you're fighting, it's the only rational thing to do.

That.

Hmmm.


seeing your opponents list before hand and making a list specifically to counter his?
-Wrong

Knowing your opponent is bringing IG (but not what hsi list is) and modifyign your list appropriately?
-Fair enoguh i woudl say.


Chances are if you know what they are bringing, they know what you are bringing.

If you knew you were playing against 'Nids tomorrow, would you bring an anti-armour list? No. You might swap out some melta for flamers, soem armour for a CC option.

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?
I mean, sure it's fun to try out some new units every once in a while, but if you and your opponent both field the same TAC list, then the game is about who has the best tactics or strategy and not about: "Yeah... I usually field all mechanized, but today I thought, why not take all infantry? You've got nothing that can beat me so I immediately win."

Also, ff you modify your list to counter his and he brings something unexpected, then what?

Either way, I've said it before but I care little about list tailoring people.
I play 40k because it's a game, not because I have to win. If you really need to adept your list to play against a specific army, just because you want to win, then you're taking it a bit too serious in my eyes.

perfect eample of this on vassal

I was asked if i want to play a game, "sure why not" i says,
He speaketh "what army doth you play, what!"

"hmm i consider, if i answer i know he will tailor, however i will inform him of his failure, before the game begins"

"Nids" I say

"ok lets play" says he

We doth both reveal lists

"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?

Because you quickly work out what are the useful TAC units, and what are not. No one takes vanguard, no one takes devastators, no one takes thunderfire cannons, etc. If you just pick one list and run it forever, you miss out on opportunities to try all those other units in an environment where they won't actually suck.

Formosa wrote:"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

You acted like a douche in this scenario. You agreed to play a game with knowledge of your opponents force, then lied about it. If you didn't want to play a tailored game you should have just said so.

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?
I mean, sure it's fun to try out some new units every once in a while, but if you and your opponent both field the same TAC list, then the game is about who has the best tactics or strategy and not about: "Yeah... I usually field all mechanized, but today I thought, why not take all infantry? You've got nothing that can beat me so I immediately win."

Also, ff you modify your list to counter his and he brings something unexpected, then what?

Either way, I've said it before but I care little about list tailoring people.
I play 40k because it's a game, not because I have to win. If you really need to adept your list to play against a specific army, just because you want to win, then you're taking it a bit too serious in my eyes.

I see list tailoring as a fun part of the game rather than somekind of desperate beardy act of 'win by any means'. It is the planning, the Green Room before the match itself. Like a football manager taking a good look at his players and not always going for the standard 4-4-2 formation (TAC).

My least favorite thing is when my nid friend and I plan for a big 5000pt game a week in advance. I know I'm fighting nids and it so hard to purchase tank hunters and take other anti tank weapons that I know will be friggen useless. It feels like a waste of points :/ I also know he likes taking zoanthropes and I have to remind myself to not take blessed hull on my land raider crusaders because I normally wouldn't.

A certain degree of list tailoring makes sense! Obviously not ina tournet settign where you woudl need to take a TAc list.

But playing a single game? If your opponent says "i will be bringing IG" then chances are you will be facing tanks, so you bring melta/warscythes etc etc.

You dont make a list to specifically beat him into the ground, you take units that should be effective against what you believe you will be facing.

As i said earlier, if you knew EXACTLY what an opponent was taking and made a list designer to counter that exact list, then that woudl be dodgy...

Example - i am in a tourney with 3 friedns next week (just a friednly 4 player tourney). i thoguh i was facing BA, IF and Red Scorpions (he likes Dreads especially). So i took a fair bit of anti-tank. yesterday the red Scorpion player announces he has [pulled a 'ned army out of nowhere. in response i have taken out a little anti-tank and put in somethign better suited to killign monstrous creatures.

I am guessing he will have some. i am not tailoring to hsi specific list, just to what i think he MIGHT field in a 'nid army. It probably still wont work. he knows i am takign 'Crons so i'm guessing will eb bringign some CC stuff to take advantage of my main weakness.

The way we usually run a game is we decide what armies are involved, decide the point totals and then create a scenario on a random battle generator. Some re-rolls are allowed per each side, and a few scenarios are very situational with an obvious defender and attacker (hence the addition of barricades, wire, etc. and the possibility of the defender having fewer points). Players have a few days to come up with their lists, and the game commences on the weekend.

Now you know who you are fighting and probably most of the situation. Sometimes we'll roll for weather or night fighting before the game starts. We usually have a main objective and side objectives as possible tie-breakers. When possible, we email our lists to a third party the night before a game to verify the legality of the lists.

In other words, we ALWAYS "list tailor" for a situation. Both sides do this due to the military intelligence on hand. It's what any commander would do.

I'd never advocate knowing more about the enemy's list than they know about yours, but bringing a knife to a gunfight is just stupid. If all you play are random pick-up games, then yes you'll have to use a TAC list. But that's out of necessity, not desirability in my mind. When you make blanket statements that all list tailoring is evil then you need to pull your head out of the sand.

Kaldor wrote:

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?

Because you quickly work out what are the useful TAC units, and what are not. No one takes vanguard, no one takes devastators, no one takes thunderfire cannons, etc. If you just pick one list and run it forever, you miss out on opportunities to try all those other units in an environment where they won't actually suck.

Formosa wrote:"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

You acted like a douche in this scenario. You agreed to play a game with knowledge of your opponents force, then lied about it. If you didn't want to play a tailored game you should have just said so.

Tsk tsk tsk, dont throw names around young man, tis rude, especially when you have no idea what you are talking about

I had no idea what he was playing, i didnt ask, he asked me, i was waiting to see if he would tailor if i did tell him, he did, he failed the test, i dont play with people who do this.

Also Basimpo will tell you all of this guy, he is known for tailoring and cheating in general

He wasnt right, but you were also wrong in how you handled it.
No reason to lie to him - just say "let's trade lists".
You definitely don't have the high ground in this situation.
And if he's such a cheater, why accept his offerto play in the first place?

Formosa wrote: Tsk tsk tsk, dont throw names around young man, tis rude, especially when you have no idea what you are talking about

I had no idea what he was playing, i didnt ask, he asked me, i was waiting to see if he would tailor if i did tell him, he did, he failed the test, i dont play with people who do this.

Also Basimpo will tell you all of this guy, he is known for tailoring and cheating in general

And I've had a go at Basimpo as well, for doing the same thing.

If you didn't want him to tailor you should have just said "Hey man, I prefer to play blind lists, so I'm not going to tell you what army I'll be playing" and if he bailed out then fine.

Agreeing to tell him your army, then lying about it is a douchey thing to do.

If me and my opponent meet and say we want to play 1500 points he knows im playing IG i know hes playing orks I will build my list out of what i have to give me the tools to have the best chance of winning agaisnt what ever orky stuff he fields as he should be bringing his best tools to defeat what i am fielding.

theres no way to "tailor" your list to beat someone thats just ridiculous, you bring your units that will be the most helpful as should your opponent. that being said if you play 1 list every time and its always the same list and you play the same opponent every time and he plays the same list and you win 80% of the time and he decides you know what im going to bring more flammers to help fend off his horde and you start whinning because he "tailored" his list to better his chance of victory ? you look like a tool for expecting someone to not better their chances and bring a more equal force and having a chance to win. also you again should be doing the same.

bottom line is you should not expect people to play at a handicap for you so you can continue winning because you think if they bring more suited tools to have a more fair chance on the field that they are TFG and "cheaters"

this argument never makes any sense i cant imagine expecting my opponent to bring a buncha useless crap every day and not bring stuff that would hinder my ability to win just makes no sense

Kaldor wrote:

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?

Because you quickly work out what are the useful TAC units, and what are not. No one takes vanguard, no one takes devastators, no one takes thunderfire cannons, etc. If you just pick one list and run it forever, you miss out on opportunities to try all those other units in an environment where they won't actually suck.

Formosa wrote:"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

You acted like a douche in this scenario. You agreed to play a game with knowledge of your opponents force, then lied about it. If you didn't want to play a tailored game you should have just said so.

hahahahha. BUSTED!!!

The guy he was playing was actually me! I remember this unfortunate incident.

Glad to see that it isn't just me who thought he was a douche for doing this.

What he didn't mention in this post was that I asked what army he was playing because I wanted to try playing new units against an army I had never played before on that day.

What he also didn't mention was that he still played me. He never said "peace out" and he didn't leave.

Instead, he went off on an incredibly obnoxious and patronising rant about how "I have taught you a lesson now about tailoring your list" after I gave up on turn 2 because I had tailored my list to tyranids since I had never played them before and - surprise surprise - was getting creamed.
Yet he seemed to think it was an amazing victory, but I pointed out to him he had only won through pure deceit and it was pretty much akin to outright cheating. Nevertheless he kept taunting me and claiming he had "taught me a lesson." Then it got kind of nasty with him swearing and insulting my family etc so I just laughed and left. Far better things to do.

Kind of glad he has been exposed though.

Formosa, you seriously need to get a life and realise when you are wrong. Also, lying on a message board to try and make yourself look cool is really quite pathetic.

FifteenHours wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

loner wrote:

Praxiss wrote:

How boring would it be if you and your friends fielded the same TAC list every game?

How's it boring if someone keeps fielding the same list?

Because you quickly work out what are the useful TAC units, and what are not. No one takes vanguard, no one takes devastators, no one takes thunderfire cannons, etc. If you just pick one list and run it forever, you miss out on opportunities to try all those other units in an environment where they won't actually suck.

Formosa wrote:"you playing space marines!?" he exclaims

"Yes, changed my mind" i retort

"but i taliored to tyranids?" he states

"Really??" i say

"yes"

"your actually admitting it???"

"yes"

"wow....im gone....peace out" I say and leave

You acted like a douche in this scenario. You agreed to play a game with knowledge of your opponents force, then lied about it. If you didn't want to play a tailored game you should have just said so.

hahahahha. BUSTED!!!

The guy he was playing was actually me! I remember this unfortunate incident.

Glad to see that it isn't just me who thought he was a douche for doing this.

What he didn't mention in this post was that I asked what army he was playing because I wanted to try playing new units against an army I had never played before on that day.

What he also didn't mention was that he still played me. He never said "peace out" and he didn't leave.

Instead, he went off on an incredibly obnoxious and patronising rant about how "I have taught you a lesson now about tailoring your list" after I gave up on turn 2 because I had tailored my list to tyranids since I had never played them before and - surprise surprise - was getting creamed.
Yet he seemed to think it was an amazing victory, but I pointed out to him he had only won through pure deceit and it was pretty much akin to outright cheating. Nevertheless he kept taunting me and claiming he had "taught me a lesson." Then it got kind of nasty with him swearing and insulting my family etc so I just laughed and left. Far better things to do.

Kind of glad he has been exposed though.

Formosa, you seriously need to get a life and realise when you are wrong. Also, lying on a message board to try and make yourself look cool is really quite pathetic.

Nice try old bean, you were the rude one, you never asked me to test anything, you simply asked me to play a game and what army i was playing, i never asked you because i had played you before under a diferent name and you tailored vs me that time too, i wanted to see if you would pull the same BS and you did, if the only way you can win is to dupe new players and cheat them... well

I was also refering to another game in my other post, but thank you for reminding me of this