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Upon seeing all of this, I thought I just add mine:
I play footguard in my stores and most people know not to expect many (if any) tanks at all. Quite often I make jokes about how they should expect a hundred screaming little guys running around a field.
If my opponent takes the time and such to ask other players which armies I play and what they look like, I don't care much about it. He can go ahead if he wishes, hell I'll even email him my list upon request.

If he deems it necessary to tailor his list to counter mine, he can go ahead. I play 40k because I want to play a game. If I happen to go up against a powergamer, then I know who not to play to in the future.

loner wrote:Upon seeing all of this, I thought I just add mine:
I play footguard in my stores and most people know not to expect many (if any) tanks at all. Quite often I make jokes about how they should expect a hundred screaming little guys running around a field.
If my opponent takes the time and such to ask other players which armies I play and what they look like, I don't care much about it. He can go ahead if he wishes, hell I'll even email him my list upon request.

If he deems it necessary to tailor his list to counter mine, he can go ahead. I play 40k because I want to play a game. If I happen to go up against a powergamer, then I know who not to play to in the future.

This is a great point, and well made. Well said loner!

If 2 competitive players choose to play against one another, then list tailoring is bound to happen. I am of the opinion that if both players know each other's general armies, then not list tailoring is basically like a battle commander choosing not to review intel before a fight. Its just dumb.

If it is a friendly game, you shouldn't list tailor, as you shouldn't be taking very competitive army lists.

If you are going to a tournament, list tailoring is idiotic, as you must plan to go against multiple types of armies.

This is my opinion. I don't list tailor in friendly games, but if I know I am going into a competitive match with a competitive player, we generally agree before hand on the issue.

If this isnt indicative of my gaming ethic, I dont know another way to convey it. I play against tau regularly with my CW Eldar. I still take runes of warding simply because a good farseer would ALWAYS be prepared to face a psychic threat.

So in other words.... i NEVER tailor. I will try to build a list that can handle any codex, and any build, and plan strategy and tactics I can employ to counter what I may face on the table top

Kaldor wrote:This is so much more an interesting way to play things than simply having a single TAC list. All of a sudden, certain options in the codex become more attractive, and you can buy and use those interesting units that the internet tells us are less than optimal. It really throws a whole other spin on things.

Further, it's exactly how they do things in White Dwarf battle reports, choosing units and wargear based on the opposition army.

I agree with you for the most part.

I'm all for tailoring an army list in order to fight a certain race. I think that's perfectly fine. (if I'm fighting Tyranids, you'd better believe that my Necrons are rolling out the Monoliths.)

However, I am absolutely against tailoring an army list against a specific list. For example, if I create a list not to generally kill Grey Knights, but specifically to kill YOUR Draigowing list, then that is poor form. It generally just reduces the game to being rock-paper-scissors and choosing your tool after your opponent.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:If this isnt indicative of my gaming ethic, I dont know another way to convey it. I play against tau regularly with my CW Eldar. I still take runes of warding simply because a good farseer would ALWAYS be prepared to face a psychic threat.

So in other words.... i NEVER tailor. I will try to build a list that can handle any codex, and any build, and plan strategy and tactics I can employ to counter what I may face on the table top

If we go by fluff a "good" farseer would be the biggest list tailor in the entire world.

IMHO if both player know who they will be facing and it's a pre arranged game there is no reason why you wouldn't "soft tailor", I mean if you are building your list for a match against tyranids you are not just going to say " yeah I'll fit a couple melts here just for the sake of it."

It depends really, such as if it in a tournament or a friendly game. For a tournament list tailoring makes sense as you put money on the line or are going for prizes.But if you ask for a friendly game, then ask what army I play so you can tailor your list to mine? That spins me into a level of pissed off I rarely enter. And yes, I've had people do that to me.

I had a similar situation when a gamer who always asks who he's playing what army they have

he asked me i told him nids he gloated saying he can field 3 thunderfire cannons and 20 or so flamers and squash me flat
i proceeded to squash him with 6 carnifexes a trygon and a hive tyrant from my pre-written list

im just trying to make a point that tailing to a race doesn't always go to plan because not every one plays stereotypical lists

At the end of the day though the only information that my opponent will be getting from me prior to a game is the points value.

If its an 1850 Tournament I will be at 1850. Thats all the info Im giving out..... Thats all the Tournament requires of me is to match the value of points as best as I can...


I could show up with a DP Blood Angels army, A mechanized Tau army or a Zippy MSU DE lovefest..... To me that is how 40k is supposed to be played...........

You decide on the points and play the game.............

loner wrote:Upon seeing all of this, I thought I just add mine:
I play footguard in my stores and most people know not to expect many (if any) tanks at all. Quite often I make jokes about how they should expect a hundred screaming little guys running around a field.
If my opponent takes the time and such to ask other players which armies I play and what they look like, I don't care much about it. He can go ahead if he wishes, hell I'll even email him my list upon request.

If he deems it necessary to tailor his list to counter mine, he can go ahead. I play 40k because I want to play a game. If I happen to go up against a powergamer, then I know who not to play to in the future.

Tailoring your list to a specific race is NOT powergaming.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote: i NEVER tailor. I will try to build a list that can handle any codex, and any build, and plan strategy and tactics I can employ to counter what I may face on the table top

Fair enough, but wouldn't you like to see other Eldar units get a chance to play on the field? Swooping Hawks, for example? Wraithguard? Theres nothing wrong with choosing units that willbe more effective against your foe. Otherwise some units will simply never get used.

Our GW store used to have a 'Staff Challenge Board' where you could write down a staff member's name and thus challenge them to a game of 40k when they had the time. You'd write down your name & army, and because pretty much everyone knew the staffer's armies, there was a good deal of list tailoring going on.

For the most part if was all in good fun and no one took it too seriously, unless you came up against some god awful filth like Eldrad in a 1000pts game.

The only time I did tailor my list during this time was when I was challenged by a Tyranid player who spent the next 2 weeks relentlessly cat-calling and telling me how much I was going to cry at the humiliating defeat I was about to take.
Note: I am bloody infamous in my area as the world's worst dice roller. I almost never win, typically because my to-hit, to-wound & saving throw rolls tend to be,

The name calling was getting so ruthless that my manager would tell this moron to stop because it was getting demeaning and outright vicious in nature.
I just told this guy, you should never poke a sleeping dragon in the eye. When it wakes up, it gets royally peeved!!!

So my list I took against him looked like;
Captain w/relic blade + storm shield.
=I= Lord w/scourging + power armour. 1x heavy bolter servitor, 1x mystic, 1x acolyte w/storm bolter.
Culexus Assassin
5x hammer/shield termies
Dread w/asscan + missile launcher
2x 10 man tac squads w/flamer + heavy bolter
10 devies w/4x lascannons
6 devies w/3x missile launchers

Not outright tailored, but definately built with 'nids in mind. Suffice it to say, I actually rolled well that game as karma came back to bite this guy firmly in the arse. He got fustrated to no end by how my termies would not drop, spent the entire game chasing my culexus around with a carnifex, ran his forces headlong across open ground right into the teath of my guns and generall became quite sour about the whole thing.

In the end, I tabled him while losing only 3 marines!


Against people acting like total d-bags, talking crap and trying to humilate you in front of your customers, I think a big 'ol serivng of humble pie is well deserved, even if it involved a bit of tailoring to do it.

jgehunter wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:If this isnt indicative of my gaming ethic, I dont know another way to convey it. I play against tau regularly with my CW Eldar. I still take runes of warding simply because a good farseer would ALWAYS be prepared to face a psychic threat.

So in other words.... i NEVER tailor. I will try to build a list that can handle any codex, and any build, and plan strategy and tactics I can employ to counter what I may face on the table top

If we go by fluff a "good" farseer would be the biggest list tailor in the entire world.

IMHO if both player know who they will be facing and it's a pre arranged game there is no reason why you wouldn't "soft tailor", I mean if you are building your list for a match against tyranids you are not just going to say " yeah I'll fit a couple melts here just for the sake of it."

HEY! HEY!! Get out of here with your logic and facts And There is a difference between making a cold weather jacket, and making a north face sub zero weather parka. Just because I understand that my local meta is HIGHLY MEQinized (get it? ) and build my lists accordingly, doesnt mean I am preparing my list to counter my best friends Khorn Berserker foot list with over 75 power armoured nasties with toys at 2000 points. I take lists that are as equally equipped to take on tyranid stealer spam, as it is to take on gk or ba razor spam or ork green tide etc..
So no, I dont tailor. (And I dont consider there to be such a thing as "soft tailoring," you are either building a TAC, or you are tailoring your list to smash one players one army)

I tailor every list unless I'm in a tournament, because I don't have a set army. I have zounds and zounds of points to play with and every list is usually a bit different. But playing against my brother's Chaos - you betcha I'll have AP3 weapons and CC units. Against my buddy's Nids - templates and sniper rifles for everyone! it just makes sense and they all do the same thing.
My brother hates being forced to make an "all comers" list when we play tourneys, as he feels it tailoring the army list to be 50% of the strategy

I'm really against list tailoring, if your opponent slips in one or two hard counters into their list it completely throws what could have been a balanced fun game.

It used to be a regular occurence at my gaming group for somebody to say "are you playing Eldar or Chaos this week?" whilst writing their lists, however I answered would completely alter what I'd fight. After getting my balanced lists screwed over for months I've come up with a way to nip it in the butt.

I'm lucky enough to have several, very different armies. I've written out a 1500 point list for every one of my armies all of which are prepeared to take all comers, they're set in stone and never change (with the exception of Nid's as they're a WIP at the moment). Now, when I'm asked who I'll be using I say that I dont know yet. Once their list is all written up I roll a dice. If I get a 1 the CSM case comes out, 2 is Daemons, 3 is Eldar, 4 is Dark Eldar, 5 is Nids and 6 is a re-roll.

Obviously this is only made possible by the fact that we always game at my house

My favorite style of play is narrative campaigns, and if something makes sense in the narrative I generally agree with it on the table top. If a space marine strike force is trying to remove a tyranid swarm from a planet, they'd be stupid not to bring flamers.

If chaos marines pick up a space marine battle cruiser on their relays, and begin preparing to be boarded why wouldn't they grab their plasma weaponry to burn through the invaders power armor?

When we just do pick up games the lists are universally designed(I don't say TAC because none of us are really good at list building haha). We just play for fun anyway, none of us are really that competitive, so it's generally not a problem.

Gorechild wrote:I'm really against list tailoring, if your opponent slips in one or two hard counters into their list it completely throws what could have been a balanced fun game...
I'm lucky enough to have several, very different armies... they're set in stone and never change

Honestly, the problem here is you, not them. If you change up your list occaisionally not only will you find new aspects of each of your armies to enjoy, but you've restored the balance and fun into your games.

I always show up to every game with the same lists. I need to carry my models around, and I don't have room to carry all sorts of extra models I might not use. Not to say I never change my list, but I'll keep it the same for a few weeks at a time. My list is designed to fight MEQ, because, thats what you fight 90% of the time.

However, I have a very orky themed carry case =D If people are writing up a list on the day, I don't pull my models out of the case until they hand the list over .

kronk wrote:
I would be pissed off if I showed up to a game store for a pick up game and an opponent wanted to see what I was bringing before he made his list. THAT is a dick move.

This defines list tailoring rather well I think.

Tailoring a list to be good against orks/nids/GKs etc is not list tailoring (it's not a good idea, but it's not tailoring).

Actually saying in the shop 'ahah! you take diversified nobz, so I'm gonna take long fangs, in trukks so I'm gonna take landspeeders' (or something like that, I'm not an expert on SW vs Ork tactics) after seeing your opponents list is tailoring, and is generally frowned upon.

IMHO, list tailoring is the wargaming equivalent of
'I brought my attack dog, with built-in force field!'
'Well I brought my dinosaur! who eats force-field dogs!'

Kaldor wrote:

Gorechild wrote:I'm really against list tailoring, if your opponent slips in one or two hard counters into their list it completely throws what could have been a balanced fun game...
I'm lucky enough to have several, very different armies... they're set in stone and never change

Honestly, the problem here is you, not them. If you change up your list occaisionally not only will you find new aspects of each of your armies to enjoy, but you've restored the balance and fun into your games.

It's my fault that I only ever used to face tac squads carrying plasma guns/cannons every time my chaos saw the board? That all other psykers disappeared the second there is the smallest chance that runes of warding might be in my list or that most melta's suddenly dissapear from lists when I used Wave Serpents?

If people didn't purpously tailor their lists to put me at a disadvantage then there wouldn't be a problem. When one of my armies is re-released or new models are brought out I do try mixing things up, but it's not like Eldar, CSM, Daemons or DE have changed much in the last year. Neither have Nid's, but seeing as I'm new to them I'm changing them around atm anyway untill im happy with something.

Gorechild wrote:It's my fault that I only ever used to face tac squads carrying plasma guns/cannons every time my chaos saw the board? That all other psykers disappeared the second there is the smallest chance that runes of warding might be in my list or that most melta's suddenly dissapear from lists when I used Wave Serpents?

Firstly, I'd like to say I'm not trying to have a go at you.

Secondly, if your lists never change, then it kinda IS your fault that you keep hitting those same anti-you builds. Now, I'm assuming that your opponents do NOT check your list over and then specifically build a list to counter it. I Also assume that since your lists never change, they don't need to actually check your list over. They already know whats in it.

It's your fault you see those same builds all the time, because your list never changes. Your opponents have worked out the best way to counter those lists, and why shouldn't they do it? If you introduced an amount of uncertainty (maybe leave the Wave Serpents at home, just as an example) they could only build lists with a small amount of tailoring.

I believe the problem you percieve is that you are recieving an unfair penalty for NOT tailoring your list, and I believe you are creating the problem by refusing to take advantage of the ability to tailor your own list. The problem is, in fact, artificial.

When one of my armies is re-released or new models are brought out I do try mixing things up, but it's not like Eldar, CSM, Daemons or DE have changed much in the last year. Neither have Nid's, but seeing as I'm new to them I'm changing them around atm anyway untill im happy with something.

But why only try new things when an army is re-released? Many units or upgrades in many armies are only really useful against specific types of enemies. So if you know you're likely to face those enemies, why not include some of those units? Building and tweaking a new army before each match is a lot of fun.

Kaldor wrote:

AegisGrimm wrote:-Tailoring against an opponent after you now what they're fielding? Sure, if he can then tailor a new force against your tailor versus his original force...........in other words, no. It's bad form. Adapt on the run.

Do you mean race, or specific list? I have no problem with saying to a buddy "Hey, next week my marines versus your guard?" and then we both have a chance to tailor our lists.

But looking over an opponents list and then tailoring your list specifically is bad form.

Stormfather wrote: We know who has which army, we all have a general idea about each other's preferences, but our lists are generally made double-blind and before the battle, so you never know exactly what you're going to be facing until after you've committed to your list. You need to keep a take-all-comers core to your army to deal with any surprises, but can customize specific loadouts to what you anticipate your opponent will field.

This^. Creating lists against a certain codex and player is one of my favourite things in 40K, though I'd draw the line at knowing their exact list unless the player in question is so limited or devoted to a single list that anything other than tailoring is charity to them.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I'll usually write up a couple lists beforehand and might change things up if I know who I'm playing - however, if/when I do so, then I am sure to let them know what army I'm playing and give them ample opportunity to tailor against me as well. I don't tailor to specific units in their list, because neither of us reveals out lists until we're about to start. Also, I try to gauge whether someone's running a "fun" or "competitive" list, just so I don't get steamrolled unfairly (and because I hate to steamroll someone else outside of a competitive environment). I think this is more than reasonable.

This.

As long as everyone is on the same page, tailoring or not is no big deal. There is no imbalance if both sides have access to the same advantage.

I'm also with Kaldor on that one : it can allow for variations from the oh so classic TAC approach, and as they say variety is the spice of life !
Note that it makes complete sense fluff-wise as well. If a detachment is cut off from the bulk of the army and its supply lines, it makes sense to always play the exact same list to represent this situation ; otherwise, a commander knowing what he's going up against will pick the most suited tools for the battle. TAC lists are a gaming convention.

The problem is when one person has access to the other's list and adapts to gain a unilateral advantage. And this can't be compensated by then allowing the other to tailor as well ; the imbalance is just swapped. Now if someone wants to play with a handicap then why not.

scotta29 wrote:I had a similar situation when a gamer who always asks who he's playing what army they have

he asked me i told him nids he gloated saying he can field 3 thunderfire cannons and 20 or so flamers and squash me flat
i proceeded to squash him with 6 carnifexes a trygon and a hive tyrant from my pre-written list

im just trying to make a point that tailing to a race doesn't always go to plan because not every one plays stereotypical lists

That gives me a fuzzy feeling inside. A thousand internet Kudos to you!

Anyway, back on topic, I honestly hate list tailoring. Thank goodness my local games club freezes lists during campaigns.

Quick question for a noobie: is it considered tailoring to, say, run sternguard with either combi-meltas for tank heavy armies and change it so I can use plasma against marines in a different match? same thing with librarian powers.

That's what we're kind of debating in this thread. Obvious tailoring, e.g. taking hard counters for specific units in an opponent's list, seems to be unanimously frowned upon.

However, "soft" tailoring is a more gray area. Taking the right load-out for different situations is just being an intelligent commander. After all, if you had access to an armory that was stuffed full with both flamers and meltaguns, why would you take meltaguns against green tide orks instead of flamers?

Long story short, seems like we're all pretty split on the issue. Some people here abhor ALL forms of tailoring, including the soft tailoring (Oh hey, I'm playing orks/marines. Better take flamers/meltas!), while others (including myself) see the soft tailor as just simply good gameplay.

Gorechild wrote: Now, when I'm asked who I'll be using I say that I dont know yet. Once their list is all written up I roll a dice. If I get a 1 the CSM case comes out, 2 is Daemons, 3 is Eldar, 4 is Dark Eldar, 5 is Nids and 6 is a re-roll.

Obviously this is only made possible by the fact that we always game at my house

I do a Similar thing with my armies, but because d6s determine almost everything I do when it comes to my fun time, not because of List tailoring.

I feel that people are ridiculous, and I almost want to say that they just want to enforce their ability to win.

I think people should be able to use different lists against different generic codex armies, before learning what is in the specific list.

However, people don't go for that. You'll get whined at and no one will play with you if you use a completely realistic and logical tactic.

What I will say is complete nonsense is when people tailor their list to fight a specific list; that is really ridiculous and OP in 40k.

Maybe the OP should edit this to add a poll? Something along the lines of:

A) NO! You print your list and run with it. Period. No changes ever, under any circumstances.

B) "Soft" tailoring is alright, but going unit for unit switching in hard counters is going too far.

C) I want to know everything in your list so I can modify mine just before the game starts!

kronk wrote:

kshaw2000 wrote:someone trys to make me tailor my list after the games is starting.

my trygon prime comes up against some kind of GK OP thing and someone says *cough*make that a mawloc*cough*

That's rather rude and underhanded.

I didn't do it.
They were actually working at the store.
They also "accidently" got £21 worth of gaunts stuck in the back of the store cubboard.tsk.
luckily the person was just working there when the main person was on holiday, and they were happy to return my gaunts after they had returned from it!

I tend to run the exact same list for months straight, and then ill make minor adjustments and run that list against anyone and everyone.

I am definitely an all comers player, and feel that tailoring is cheating when only 1 player does it, and it wasnt agreed on. When either both players agree to tailor, or when one player encourages another to tailor for whatever reason, than its alright. Other than that, if someone just tailors every game, its basically cheating.