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ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And of course, we'd end up with Chaos Space Marines wielding Chaos Swords and Warp Guns in Chaos Armour led by a Chaos Lord in with Chaos Wings using a Chaos Daemon weapon... it's bad enough already.

..We already have that, we've had that since Rogue Trader!

Even fantasy (under Phil kelly) Has them with stuff like that!

Exactly. We need someone who'll get rid of the pointless addition of Chaos X to everything. Most of the units don't even have non-chaos counterparts, they don't need the word in front of them.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And of course, we'd end up with Chaos Space Marines wielding Chaos Swords and Warp Guns in Chaos Armour led by a Chaos Lord in with Chaos Wings using a Chaos Daemon weapon... it's bad enough already.

..We already have that, we've had that since Rogue Trader!

Even fantasy (under Phil kelly) Has them with stuff like that!

Heinrich Kemmler, of the Vampire Counts, wields a Chaos Runeblade as an example of this.

I could've sworn I recently read a story that implied that the guy sitting on the Golden Throne is actually Horus. No idea which story that was ...

Anyway, I just hope the new book has cultists and demons in it. I really don't know what to expect and I don't trust any of the rumors after ghost21.

Kanluwen wrote:The first one!

Holy gak but I actually agree w Kanluwen...

That'd be me! Of course the other two options are Cruddence, and Jervis. Which is like asking do you want to be underpowered and weak or streamlined and invalidated by the next vanilla dex.

Ogre Kingdoms by Jeremy Vettock and Jervis Johnson
Necrons by Matt Ward
Vampire Counts by Phil Kelly
Empire by Robin Cruddance


So Vettock, Jervis or Ward should be up to bat for the next book, and IIRC Matt Ward said he was not writing the book, so...

(Abbadon, Typhon, Lucious, Kharn, Ahriman, and maybe Bile ?, etc.)

Except all those characters (barring Abaddon) are pretty much outcasts from their Legions... I think it likely we may get new characters entirely while the "Renegade" book retains the current characters and the 'big four' cult troops (possibly moved to Elites?)

I hear he's writing the Tau codex

Oh my god please yes.... if I could get Phil Kelly to write both my Tau and Eldar I would... ugh.... i think i just came thinking about it.

I could've sworn I recently read a story that implied that the guy sitting on the Golden Throne is actually Horus. No idea which story that was ...

Indeed but the source of that information within the fluff is unreliable to say the least

if they do come out with a chaos space marine dex I would love for them to come out with some legion specific boxes, like alpha legion or night hunters.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The first one!

Holy gak but I actually agree w Kanluwen...

Pshaw. It happens far more than people like to admit.

That'd be me! Of course the other two options are Cruddence, and Jervis. Which is like asking do you want to be underpowered and weak or streamlined and invalidated by the next vanilla dex.

Ogre Kingdoms by Jeremy Vettock and Jervis Johnson
Necrons by Matt Ward
Vampire Counts by Phil Kelly
Empire by Robin Cruddance


So Vettock, Jervis or Ward should be up to bat for the next book, and IIRC Matt Ward said he was not writing the book, so...

The order of release may not necessarily be the order of development.

I would start a Night Lords army myself, if they got representation in the new Chaos Dex. But as of now, I am uncertain of it.

I don't think any of the characters from the current chaos codex are outcasts except for Ahriman. And even he still commands a large force of Thousand Sons. I can kinda see Kharn as an outcast, but the World Eater legions doesn't really exist in forces larger than war bands.

So if the Chaos Legions book doesn't include Demons yet includes Word Bearers.... how does that make sense?

tboneswoodhouse wrote:So if the Chaos Legions book doesn't include Demons yet includes Word Bearers.... how does that make sense?

Please actually read the actual rumor if you want to comment. It says:

theDarkGeneral wrote:
-Daemon Princes may wind up being the only "Marked" Daemonic creatures - meaning either no god-specific daemons, or god-specific units but without the use of "Marks".

That doesn't mean no daemons, it means no marked daemons, besides the Daemon prince. The rumor even states it could just as easily mean god specific daemons without the "mark" system.

Did you miss the previous page mythos? The one where the guy said the book would have no daemons?

tboneswoodhouse wrote:So if the Chaos Legions book doesn't include Demons yet includes Word Bearers.... how does that make sense?

They'll just start listening to a lot of Linkin Park and stop talking to their parents.

So Vettock, Jervis or Ward should be up to bat for the next book, and IIRC Matt Ward said he was not writing the book, so...

Vettock doesn't write for 40k, he's been purely fantasy.

Jervis..I hope to some deity he sticks with writing fantasy as a co-author.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

And of course, we'd end up with Chaos Space Marines wielding Chaos Swords and Warp Guns in Chaos Armour led by a Chaos Lord in with Chaos Wings using a Chaos Daemon weapon... it's bad enough already.

..We already have that, we've had that since Rogue Trader!

Even fantasy (under Phil kelly) Has them with stuff like that!

Haha, with the exception of Warp guns and Chaos wings, all of that stuff is there since Rogue Trader.

I don't think it's fair to compare Chaos Armor or Chaos Weapons (which are truly something chaotic and actually deserve the title) to something like Bloodstrike Missiles (which is just a dumb naming convention, along with Nemesis Doomfists...c'mon).

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

aka_mythos wrote:

tboneswoodhouse wrote:So if the Chaos Legions book doesn't include Demons yet includes Word Bearers.... how does that make sense?

Please actually read the actual rumor if you want to comment. It says:

theDarkGeneral wrote:
-Daemon Princes may wind up being the only "Marked" Daemonic creatures - meaning either no god-specific daemons, or god-specific units but without the use of "Marks".

That doesn't mean no daemons, it means no marked daemons, besides the Daemon prince. The rumor even states it could just as easily mean god specific daemons without the "mark" system.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Did you miss the previous page mythos? The one where the guy said the book would have no daemons?

Yeah that was more so my intention was the speculation of no daemons yet would focus on legions made no sense to me.

Considering GW has been in the business lately of putting more units, not less, in their codices, I doubt we'll see the removal of daemons. We may not see god-specific daemons, but they'll be in there in some form.

So which part of these rumors are new? Cause I've seen all of these before, save for the Preferred Enemy thing.

Anyway, here's to hoping for plastic Thousand Sons and Tzeentch not sucking!

H.B.M.C. wrote:Did you miss the previous page mythos? The one where the guy said the book would have no daemons?

When someone posts 3 pages after an idea was stated, without quotations, the comment lacks the necessary context to know what it is someone is refering especially when there are several points of discussion unrelated to that post but directed at the original post inbetween. Admittedly I missed the post where some guy said someone in his store who knows someone in the design studio "reckoned" something contrary to the rumors in the first post.

marmaduke wrote:Are there any actual rumors or news about the new codex or are people just saying how much they hate the current codex/ hate gav/ hate Matt Ward.....

So any actual news?
release date?
leaked ideas?
models?
anything actually relevant?
anything based in fact/rumor and not wishlisting?


ANYTHING?

I haven't seen a thing but I wouldn;t be suprised if it's far off.

June seems to be the big push for this year and that's not very far off ...

We will know soon enough what the gods have decided for us

Noisy_Marine wrote:I don't think any of the characters from the current chaos codex are outcasts except for Ahriman. And even he still commands a large force of Thousand Sons. I can kinda see Kharn as an outcast, but the World Eater legions doesn't really exist in forces larger than war bands.

Typhus is an outcast also. He got angreh at Mortarion for being a "sentimental weakling" and led a rebellion. If I remember correctly, roughly one seventh of the Death Guard sided with him.

LoneLictor wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I don't think any of the characters from the current chaos codex are outcasts except for Ahriman. And even he still commands a large force of Thousand Sons. I can kinda see Kharn as an outcast, but the World Eater legions doesn't really exist in forces larger than war bands.

Typhus is an outcast also. He got angreh at Mortarion for being a "sentimental weakling" and led a rebellion. If I remember correctly, roughly one seventh of the Death Guard sided with him.

I don't think a Legion-centric codex necessarily needs to make the distinctions between "Legion" and Ex-legion, unless that distinction is overly significant. If there is going to be this codex split between Renegades and Legionaires it will be interesting to see where different characters end up; are some of the establish characters outcast enough to be more suited to the Renegade book? Also with the current trend towards more characters and unit-buffing characters what will GW add?

Brother SRM wrote:Considering GW has been in the business lately of putting more units, not less, in their codices, I doubt we'll see the removal of daemons. We may not see god-specific daemons, but they'll be in there in some form.

Agreed.

Even GW aren't 'stupid' enough to miss both that business opportunity and obvious requirement within the Codex.
That's been one of the key criticisms of the existing 'dex and I'd be amazed if they weren't included in this one.

I wonder if the current GW design trend of adding a common noun to the front of each faction's weapons is to prevent any future weirdness if they want to change stats. The whole Space Marine Multiple Codex issue where common items might have different costs and rules from book to book: people have always asked if changing an item (Storm Shields are one I remember) in one book indicates it should be changed ina ll books. So having 'Space Marines armed with Space Marine Bolters and Space Marine Grenades" while sounding a bit silly, future proofs them as it's obviously different from "Chaos with Chaos Bolters"...

While changing the profile of a Bolter is unlikely, if the rules were more detailed it would make sense that Chaos bolters might be a bit different due to age, or Bolters assigned to the rare Guardsman might have a lower rate of fire or similar as it's carried by a less sturdy combatant,

StraightSilver wrote:Red Corsairs are not being given the cold shoulder, they already exist in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Codex Chaos Legions is (or so I have been told) in addition to and not a replacement for Codex Chaos Space Marines.

It is a whole new Codex, seperate from Chaos Space Marines in the same way that Grey Knights are seperate from Space Marines.

Therefore, if you still want to run a Red Cosrsirs or Black Legion (Black Legion are considered renegades rather than an original Legion) army with Daemons you would use Codex CSM, but if you wanted to field a more elite Legion Force you would use Codex Legions.

Almost all of the entries in Codex Chaos Space marines are renegades or outcasts from their original Legions, and that Codex was originally intended to only ever be a Renegades Codex, but unfortunately when it came to the colour painting and gallery inserts only pictures of Chaos Space Marines were available, and so the Codex was relabelled Chaos Space Marines.

The Legions Codex is a completely seperate book and soesn't replace Chaos Space Marines, which will now be considered as the Renegade Codex.

Ok, but unless they (GW) add some stuff to the current "Renegade" book, who in their right mind would stick with it, as opposed to using the New Hotness Chaos Legions book? What possible reason would ANYONE have for staying with it? OK I'm totally going to not paint anything else until some concrete details come out and I know what's going to be in the New Hotness, what, if anything is going to be in the Old and Busted, and all that.

LoneLictor wrote:

ThomasPolder wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Apparently chaos is begin to grow under the fine penmanship of Matthew Ward.

Don't even joke about that gak.

why? Gods forbid we actually get a codex which is competitive and fun to play... those few pages of fluff in the 'dexes are better ignored for BL work etc anyway, and horrible fluff and sometimes silly names aside, Ward's a decent writer. quite consistent, too. You'd prefer cruddace? that would make for two tragically unplayable chaos marine dexes. no thanks, sir.

Horrible fluff aside, Ward's a decent writer? Really? I didn't think you can be a decent writer if the stuff you write is horrible.

I tend to spend an awful lot of time more playing with the rules than reading the fluff. his rules are good, /care for what fluff he screws up - plenty more of that, 40k is a big universe.

ThomasPolder wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

ThomasPolder wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Apparently chaos is begin to grow under the fine penmanship of Matthew Ward.

Don't even joke about that gak.

why? Gods forbid we actually get a codex which is competitive and fun to play... those few pages of fluff in the 'dexes are better ignored for BL work etc anyway, and horrible fluff and sometimes silly names aside, Ward's a decent writer. quite consistent, too. You'd prefer cruddace? that would make for two tragically unplayable chaos marine dexes. no thanks, sir.

Horrible fluff aside, Ward's a decent writer? Really? I didn't think you can be a decent writer if the stuff you write is horrible.

I tend to spend an awful lot of time more playing with the rules than reading the fluff. his rules are good, /care for what fluff he screws up - plenty more of that, 40k is a big universe.

No Ward please... Sure his books all have solid to excellent internal balance. But the man has 0 concept of what "external balance" actually means! Last thing we need is to go back to the dark days of the 3.5 shinanigans of BS like 'Siren daemonbombs', or 9x olibts + 4 defiler/possessed vindicators iron warriors.

I'd like the new legions book to be more akin to Dark Eldar balance than that god-awful pile of steaming monkey-gak that's the GK farce.

I think its funny how the different strengths and weaknesses of the codex writers seemingly compliment each other... That given the right situation of them working together it'd actually be possible to get a codex with solid fluff, a multitude of new units, internally and externally balanced... "when your powers combine!..."

Edit: Then again you could get silly fluff, worthless units, mixed with obvious choices and game breaking rules all at once.

Trevak Dal wrote:
Ok, but unless they (GW) add some stuff to the current "Renegade" book, who in their right mind would stick with it, as opposed to using the New Hotness Chaos Legions book? What possible reason would ANYONE have for staying with it? OK I'm totally going to not paint anything else until some concrete details come out and I know what's going to be in the New Hotness, what, if anything is going to be in the Old and Busted, and all that.

Agreed, but given the seemingly more rigid nature of the implications given by the rumors for the Legion book, the Renegade book may still offer greater flexibility in mixing and matching characters and units. As many have suggested an updated Renegade codex lends itself best to eventually including more in the way of traitor guard, mutants, etc and concepts from the LatD mini-dex since ex-loyalists would more quickly be ready and willing to work with other ex-loyalist... as I imagine getting help from legions may include many "strings attached."

Trevak Dal wrote:

StraightSilver wrote:Red Corsairs are not being given the cold shoulder, they already exist in Codex Chaos Space Marines.

Codex Chaos Legions is (or so I have been told) in addition to and not a replacement for Codex Chaos Space Marines.

It is a whole new Codex, seperate from Chaos Space Marines in the same way that Grey Knights are seperate from Space Marines.

Therefore, if you still want to run a Red Cosrsirs or Black Legion (Black Legion are considered renegades rather than an original Legion) army with Daemons you would use Codex CSM, but if you wanted to field a more elite Legion Force you would use Codex Legions.

Almost all of the entries in Codex Chaos Space marines are renegades or outcasts from their original Legions, and that Codex was originally intended to only ever be a Renegades Codex, but unfortunately when it came to the colour painting and gallery inserts only pictures of Chaos Space Marines were available, and so the Codex was relabelled Chaos Space Marines.

The Legions Codex is a completely seperate book and soesn't replace Chaos Space Marines, which will now be considered as the Renegade Codex.

Ok, but unless they (GW) add some stuff to the current "Renegade" book, who in their right mind would stick with it, as opposed to using the New Hotness Chaos Legions book? What possible reason would ANYONE have for staying with it? OK I'm totally going to not paint anything else until some concrete details come out and I know what's going to be in the New Hotness, what, if anything is going to be in the Old and Busted, and all that.

Well, I would assume that the old book would get an update via white dwarf (ala sisters when the GK were released), but thats just me...

Nicorex wrote:I like the idea of having more jump capable assault units. Hopefully Chosen with JP's get something akin to heroic intervention. What I am really happy to hear though is Havock launchers going back to heavy 2. fifteen points for a single shot weapon was overpriced. (not that it was a one time firing upgrade, just that it only got one shot a turn for a okay st5 ap5 blast load out). Im not sure about Dp's going to the Deamon Codex style though. Dont they cost even more for the same thing? I will have to crunch some numbers.....

Wishlisting, I wouldnt mind seeing the havock launcher get 2 types of shots. like a st6 ap4 heavy two round.

I would prefer that the one's getting the "Chaos Heroic Intervention" would be Khorne Berzerkers with Jump packs. Just makes more sense fluff wise as why would they deep strike in, only to just sit there when they can see they enemy jump in and assault on the same turn.

I'd be happy with an upgrade to the Havok Launchers too, gives me a good reason to buy them again for my Rhinos. Khorne needs all the firepower it can get to give cover to the Berzerkers.

gorgon wrote:

boyd wrote:It was right after they released the Chaos Marine Codex and there were so many disappointed people who really hated the way the "new" codex took most of their stuff and made it either too generic or useless (kai guns anyone?!?). When they got a ton of complaints about how bland the codex was, Jervis brought it up in a Standard Bearer column and said they planned on doing Chaos Demons with the possibility of doing a Traitor Legions Codex as well. At that point, the rumors started to fly all over the place. There was even talk that the Legions Codex would be coming out shortly after a plastic thunderhawk would be released so those who have watched portent, dakka, and warseer over the years knew the chances of getting any of these in the near future were slim to nil.

I wasn't referring to the rumor mill online or the reaction to the CSM codex. What I'd heard from someone that I trust is that there was a plan for a Legions book from the get-go. Gav originally wrote the CSM book with that in mind, but plans changed, leaving us with an incomplete vision (and leaving Gav hung out to dry).

I don't think they planned to write the Legions book to begin with because if they did, they wouldn't have included characters from the Legions. All of the characters I listed are main characters in their legion. The only special character not from on of the original legions was Huron Blackheart. They also modelled their generic warband to be a "Black Legion" war band. Warseer had a GW write in campaign and had people flood GW with complaints about how they neutered their army. Jervis speculated that they may delve into a Legions Codex at some point but it wasn't set it stone when or if it would happen. It was in his standard bearer article 3-5 months after the Chaos Space Marine Codex was released. Would you be combining these books to make 1 codex? Otherwise you'll have a Deathguard Legion without Typhus because he only leads renegade marines now. I see them revamping the line the same way they did GK, Necrons, DE, etc. A Black Legion Army that doesn't have the option of playing Abbadon or a World Eater army that doesn't have Kharn the Betrayer as an option just doesn't seem right. They could copy and paste them from the CSM Codex, but if they go that route, they are limiting themselves because then they couldn't use the character to change the FOC to really tailor your army to be fluffy or in line for the Legion. The only 2 characters in the codex that were true Renegades are Fabius Bile and Huron. If they truly wanted to do two CSM codexes (sp?) they would have made one truly renegades and truly legions. The current codex is just a conglameration of both - it tries to satisfy both the legion players and the renegade players which tells me they didn't plan this out and it was more reactionary. They said they planned to do one in response to the back lash they got from that codex. That was all at the time when we had somewhat reliable rumors 12-18 months out.

Boyd you need to read up on your fluff some more, because all the special characters in that book (barring Abaddon) are renegades. Ahriman has been exiled from the main body of the Thousand Sons by Magnus, Typhus is also out there doing his own thing, Kharn goes where the blood flows. I think the case could actually be made for Abaddon in a way too, as I understand it when he turned the Sons of Horus into the Black Legion a component of the Sons of Horus rebelled against him IIRC. Technically the Black Legion is a different organization from the original legion that fled to the Eye of Terror in any case.