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**Savageconvoy**

I didn't say Eldar didn't have a bad deal either. I'm mostly bothered by the argument that Tau Firewarriors should be compared to IG when deciding stats and point values.

And honestly I know nothing about Eldar. At my FLGS there is one Eldar player that never gets to play much and one other Tau player besides myself. Though the other Tau player has either never read the rulebook or just plain cheats.

**A Town Called Malus**

Buttons wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

The hell? 7-8 points for BS 4 fire warriors? You get Str 5 AP 5 standard weapons, 4+ armour saves, and marker lights. Besides if you get into close combat you are screwed no matter what your initiative is, you are Tau. Also, why should you get BS 4? Most units that get BS 4 are Space Marines who have fought for decades at least, Eldar who have trained in a tiny aspect of war their entire lives, or IG veterans who have fought for years against the toughest enemies in the galaxy.

Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills. So assuming that an Imperial Guardsman trains for the same length of time as a Fire Warrior you would expect a Fire Warrior to be better at shooting as he'd spent more of that time down at the firing range.

If Fire Warriors stay at BS3 they need a points drop. Crisis, Stealth and Broadsides should be BS4 standard as these guys have been fighting for years to advance in rank and are in a suit bristling with technology which you'd expect to help them aim a bit better than an unsuited Fire Warrior.

**DarknessEternal**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

**Exergy**

Nagashek wrote:

we compare to Kabalite warriors. 9ppm. BS4, WS4, I5. 5+sv, sure. I call the difference between a splinter rifle and a pulse rifle conditional and in that regard an equal weapon (in terms of usefulness across the game.) The PR is S5, which is great against T4 or less enemies. Amazing, really. The SR comes into its own at T6 or greater, but only when compared against the PR (as opposed to a bolter.) Oh yeah, and the Kabalite also has PFP, which the firewarrior will never get. And you REALLY think that BS4 on that model for 10 points is too much?

Most things in the game are T4 or less. SR cannot hurt vehicles and are only 24" range. I would say the SR is equal to a bolter now. Just as good at T4 which is the most common, worse at T3, better at T5+ and worse against vehicles.

A 4+ save is also signifigantly better than 5+. For IG and Orks, a 4+ save costs 4pts. For DE it costs 10points, although it comes with a 6++ too.

**A Town Called Malus**

DarknessEternal wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

And which parts of the Codex are these? I just looked through and couldn't find any mention of it in either the current codex or the previous one. So unless you have a page number for that claim...

**Buttons**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

And which parts of the Codex are these? I just looked through and couldn't find any mention of it in either the current codex or the previous one. So unless you have a page number for that claim...

Tau ten to be slower and weaker to humans, Firewarriors are bigger and stronger than most Tau but still shorter and weaker than most humans. Also, a weekend of bayonet drills doesn't impact that heavily upon marksmanship training.

**Just Dave**

IIRC The Mechanicum report describes their weaker eyesight also.

**A Town Called Malus**

Buttons wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:
Fire Warriors train exclusively to shoot. With the exception of soldiers under Farsight's command (who are all veterans of years of warfare against Orks) they do not ever train in hand to hand combat. Imperial Guard do train in close combat, even if it just is bayonet drills.

Yes, and it gets them all the way to 3.

It's like no one else reads the parts of the codex where it points out how physically and dextrously inferior Tau are to humans.

And which parts of the Codex are these? I just looked through and couldn't find any mention of it in either the current codex or the previous one. So unless you have a page number for that claim...

Tau ten to be slower and weaker to humans, Firewarriors are bigger and stronger than most Tau but still shorter and weaker than most humans. Also, a weekend of bayonet drills doesn't impact that heavily upon marksmanship training.

Slower, maybe but not weaker. They have the same base strength value as a guardsman so the rules don't support that they're inherently weaker. As for being slower, reflexes can be improved through training. Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Just Dave wrote:IIRC The Mechanicum report describes their weaker eyesight also.

Their eyesight takes longer to focus on distant objects but can see into the UV and IR range of the spectrum.

**AtoMaki**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Slower, maybe but not weaker. They have the same base strength value as a guardsman so the rules don't support that they're inherently weaker. As for being slower, reflexes can be improved through training. Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

In the Deathwatch RPG rulebook, the (Fire Caste) Tau is described as physically equal to humans and its stats are roughly the same as a low-mid human's.

**Just Dave**

In-game statistics don't always accurately represent their true character; its an inherent flaw in the max-stat-10/D6 system. E.g. the way a Defiler is only as good as a Guardsman in close combat, Space Marine Scouts are as accurate as Grots etc.

**DarknessEternal**

A Town Called Malus wrote:Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

Farsight carries a daemon weapon that's doubled his lifespan.

**A Town Called Malus**

DarknessEternal wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:Farsight is Initiative 5, so it's possible that Tau could be just as quick as a human if they trained in the right way.

Farsight carries a daemon weapon that's doubled his lifespan.

Supposedly. No evidence that it's a daemon weapon and we don't know whether it is still the same Farsight or whether the leaders of the Farsight enclaves are just using his name in honour of him. Stylistically it looks more like a Necron weapon than a Chaos weapon, in my opinion.

**evildrspock**

Mahtamori wrote:
evildrspock wrote:I like the idea of having one Guardian with more skills and putting it all together, but the mix and match feel suggests the Guardians have a more tactical, well rounded training, which they really don't; they're Eldar civilians thrown into battle. 3 special weapons AND a heavy weapon platform is a lot; with this ruleset, everyone would take 6 squads with 3 Fusion guns, a Fusion pistol and a Starcannon in Waveserpents, and destroy meq armies for cheap. Hello Ap 1 & 2!

If the Black guardian exists, he should be an upgrade character, not standard. Though I would say that Defensive Grenades for Guardian Defenders and Assault Grenades for Storm Guardians would be a nice 1ppm upgrade.

Good ideas, but I think the temptation with dreaming up new rulesets is far to easy too overpower the new rules.

I have never seen anyone suggest taking fusion guns for their Storm Guardians since the magic recipe to make them good is dual flamer + destlock. You've got to remember that while a fusion gun is certainly good, you're still paying a premium for it, even if it is pre-paid, and that it's still got to hit. The likelihood of having a Farseer with them on a mission like that is relatively low, so we're looking at three models amounting to an average of 1 killed marine per round - that's an estimate of 36 points shooting down between 14 and 30 points per round that they are within 12". Not a good power-to-cost ratio considering that they will most likely fail to do anything to even a small number of marines in melee.
As for the Black Guardian, the fusion gun is range 6" and exist as a strong, if costly, last ditch to pop a transport before assaulting GEQ inside. It's actually horribly overpriced at 10 points in my opinion, but that's what it costs at BS4 in all places I have seen it (though I haven't read most non-Eldar codices)

Here's the thing with Eldar, though, they are completely opposite of all other armies. Got a very expensive vehicle that needs piloting? Stick militia in it. Got a really esoteric piece of artillery? Man it with militia. Need special equipment towed around the battlefield? Give it to the militia. Need man power for the front line to hack at the enemy in melee? Send in the elites. Got a really specialized mission for which only certain equipment is suitable? There's an elite squad who can do nothing else.
This is how it is in the codex at the moment. Sticking more weapon options on the militia, arguably some of the weaker and more mass-producible ones at that, as well as giving them a bit more special weapons to pick and choose from is not deviating from the current Eldar design - though it is deviating from the design of every other codex out there! The Craftworlders are weird like that and they've got strange priorities. I'd also like to point out that the special weapons they can choose from 1-in-3 are the sort of weapons you'd expect Aspect Warriors to use 3-in-3. Except the Swooping Hawks, they are uselesserest.

P.s. a flamer on a squad of marines need to hit three marines in order to be as effective as a melta gun. Typically a flamer will hit 5 or more. Also, the Star Cannon is still useless, I just made the assumption it's closer to it's performance in cost (10 points maybe 15)

Yeah, with Eldar it does make sense that with their lower numbers, they minimize their options by putting the highly skilled elite forces forward where they'll actually engage the enemy, while the civilian militia are put in the less likely to die roll (safely encased in a Grav-Tank, or in Support Weapon roles). I understand why it's there, but I hate the lack of a BS upgrade on Falcons, Vipers, etc.

It is true you're getting a lot more reliability per upgrade with Flamers on Guardians - lack of rolling to hit being the primary function - and unloading out of a transport and hitting enemies in cover makes that ever so much better. The point about getting 4 ap1 and 2 ap2 in one squad is the amount of killiness for meq/3+/2+ save dominated environment we are in. The ability to threaten anything on the board with each troop choice is good, & I'd totally take 2 or 3 squads like that to power up to paladin units, terminators, and lay down the hate. No FNP/2 wounds for you! Rolling to hit is another thing here ...

....

As for Swooping Hawks, I feel everyone's pain on them. They feel like a "fun" unit to use, but are too expensive to just throw in a list for a fun haywire unit. Swooping Hawks need one or 2 more abilities that cause your opponent's plans to go haywire.

Their Lasblasters should have the "Haywire" Special Rule, like their grenades (or perhaps in place of the grenades) - always glance vehicles on a 2-5, penning on a 6? For a 10 man squad, an average of 6 Glancing hits and one Pinning per turn seems fair for their points cost and general fragility. More weapons need a "Poison" effect vs vehicles, anyways.

EDIT: alternatively, this could just be an exarch power, or maybe an upgrade for the Exarch's Sunrifle/Hawk's Talon?
Also, my average math was off - a squad of 10 regular Swooping hawks would average say 13 hits? That's 9-10 Glancings and 2 Pinnings per found of fire ... Yeah, probably only fair if he exarch's guns have this.

**DarknessEternal**

evildrspock wrote:
Yeah, with Eldar it does make sense that with their lower numbers, they minimize their options by putting the highly skilled elite forces forward where they'll actually engage the enemy, while the civilian militia are put in the less likely to die roll (safely encased in a Grav-Tank, or in Support Weapon roles).

Except for Scorpions, those "highly skilled elite forces" can't get into forward positions without the militia pilots.