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Why isn't Fish of Fury viable anymore? Or is it just that transports made it necessary to load up on crisis suits in addition to broadsides?

Uh. EMPs are 3ppm, and are NOT meltabombs. They're 4-5 glance 6 pen. To use them, you have to get a unit that relies on shooting into assault range without firing them. Then you have to assault. With WS2 T3 I2. Meaning you are not going to do ANYTHING against walkers. Meaning you haven't fired.

13ppm for a poor model with a decent gun (strike squads get S5 AP5 assault 2 24") that can sometimes, en-masse, bog down a weak vehicle long enough to kill it...?

@Chesh - FoF isnt viable because TLoS and Assault rules mean that they aren't 'invincible' behind their devilfish anymore, and they give cover to things that, before, didnt have any. That, and yes, they have no way to pop transports first in many cases.

Guardians. 80 points.
Squad size: 9 Guardians and 1 Black Guardian (aspect warrior profile +1A, Guardian armour)
* Each Guardian must be armed with one of the following: Close combat weapon and shuriken pistol, Shuriken Catapult or lasblaster.
* Up to three Guardians may replace their weapons with one from the list: power weapon and shuriken pistol, flamer, melta gun or long rifle.
* The Black Guardian is armed with a close combat weapon and a shuriken pistol and may replace either or both with weapons from the following list: shuriken catapult (+0 points), power weapon (+6 points), fusion pistol (+10 points), shuriken cannon (+10 points)
* The squad may be accompanied by a heavy weapons platform (10 to 30 points), may select a plasma shield (+15 points) or a webway portal (+35 points)
* The squad may be armed with plasma and fusion grenades for +10 points amd may be transported by a Wave Serpent for +80 points.

Plasma Shield - (one use) a device which is placed by a model in the unit and deploys in base contact with the model deoploying it. It is a 5" wide 3" high barrier which provides 4+ cover for any eldar unit it obscures.

1. The Warlock is intended to be a separate FOC, purchased much like a librarian is. This also makes the Eldar army more psycher-intensive without having to go bananas on the psychic power strength of the Farseer.
2. The Black Guardian is a proper sergeant and provides higher leadership.
3. The basic Guardian is still grossly overpriced, but you intentionally get roughly 6 points of free upgrades for every three guardians! Yes, that is intentionally free.
4. Yes, Wave Serpents are too costly for this edition's pricing.

This effectively makes the Guardian the most dynamic unit, although keeping true to the Eldar theme they still will be good for roughly one thing at a time, and it also makes them the army's workhorse in deploying cover and reinforcement gateways

---

Rangers.
Well, since I just gave Guardians sniper rifles, the role of low-proficiency snipers is potentially filled. Rangers get to be upgraded with Pathfinder ability as standard.

Just for gaks and giggles, what if they could purchase Webway Portals?

Edit.
Chrisrawr: grenades on walkers are 6+ to hit regardless of weapon skill, so that's the one sole place where the Tau aren't any more terrible than an orc in melee

chrisrawr wrote:@Chesh - FoF isnt viable because TLoS and Assault rules mean that they aren't 'invincible' behind their devilfish anymore, and they give cover to things that, before, didnt have any. That, and yes, they have no way to pop transports first in many cases.

Ah, yeah. For some odd reason, I thought devilfish got the option to take a second move during the assault phase.

If that were the case, would that + landing gears make it a viable tactic again? Taking a shas'ui with a markerlight and a couple of seeker missiles on the devilfish would give them some transport popping capability.

Pop the devilfish over the back of the gun line, shoot, then move it back and land it in front of them again to block LOS and make it harder to charge - at least until the 'fish got wrecked, anyway.

Markerlight is heavy and cannot be fired. The fish can't move in the assault phase, so your tactic still doesn't work, and the landing gear only works in the movement phase. Literally the only thing going for FoF was the fact that it let you shoot at the enemy without being shot back at or assaulted. Targeting priority was such a terrible idea.

@Mathamori - Still worse, no fleet! Rangers/Pathfinders have always, always needed a boost, imho.

I always love coming to these threads and reading all the comparisons of FW to IG. If FW were comparable to the IG Vets then we wouldn't be seeing a 6 man mandatory squad hiding in a devilfish in reserves in most lists.

Maybe giving the Devilfish firepoints or some weapons that the units can use from inside to supplement their firepower would be a better fix than the BS issue. People will argue about that unti the 40K storyline advances or the Sun collapses in on itself, whichever comes first.

Smart money is on the Sun, methinks.

Mahtamori wrote:Guardians. 80 points.
Squad size: 9 Guardians and 1 Black Guardian (aspect warrior profile +1A, Guardian armour)
* Each Guardian must be armed with one of the following: Close combat weapon and shuriken pistol, Shuriken Catapult or lasblaster.
* Up to three Guardians may replace their weapons with one from the list: power weapon and shuriken pistol, flamer, melta gun or long rifle.
* The Black Guardian is armed with a close combat weapon and a shuriken pistol and may replace either or both with weapons from the following list: shuriken catapult (+0 points), power weapon (+6 points), fusion pistol (+10 points), shuriken cannon (+10 points)
* The squad may be accompanied by a heavy weapons platform (10 to 30 points), may select a plasma shield (+15 points) or a webway portal (+35 points)
* The squad may be armed with plasma and fusion grenades for +10 points amd may be transported by a Wave Serpent for +80 points.

Plasma Shield - (one use) a device which is placed by a model in the unit and deploys in base contact with the model deoploying it. It is a 5" wide 3" high barrier which provides 4+ cover for any eldar unit it obscures.

1. The Warlock is intended to be a separate FOC, purchased much like a librarian is. This also makes the Eldar army more psycher-intensive without having to go bananas on the psychic power strength of the Farseer.
2. The Black Guardian is a proper sergeant and provides higher leadership.
3. The basic Guardian is still grossly overpriced, but you intentionally get roughly 6 points of free upgrades for every three guardians! Yes, that is intentionally free.
4. Yes, Wave Serpents are too costly for this edition's pricing.

This effectively makes the Guardian the most dynamic unit, although keeping true to the Eldar theme they still will be good for roughly one thing at a time, and it also makes them the army's workhorse in deploying cover and reinforcement gateways

---

Rangers.
Well, since I just gave Guardians sniper rifles, the role of low-proficiency snipers is potentially filled. Rangers get to be upgraded with Pathfinder ability as standard.

Just for gaks and giggles, what if they could purchase Webway Portals?

Edit.
Chrisrawr: grenades on walkers are 6+ to hit regardless of weapon skill, so that's the one sole place where the Tau aren't any more terrible than an orc in melee

I like the idea of having one Guardian with more skills and putting it all together, but the mix and match feel suggests the Guardians have a more tactical, well rounded training, which they really don't; they're Eldar civilians thrown into battle. 3 special weapons AND a heavy weapon platform is a lot; with this ruleset, everyone would take 6 squads with 3 Fusion guns, a Fusion pistol and a Starcannon in Waveserpents, and destroy meq armies for cheap. Hello Ap 1 & 2!

If the Black guardian exists, he should be an upgrade character, not standard. Though I would say that Defensive Grenades for Guardian Defenders and Assault Grenades for Storm Guardians would be a nice 1ppm upgrade.

Good ideas, but I think the temptation with dreaming up new rulesets is far to easy too overpower the new rules.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

The hell? 7-8 points for BS 4 fire warriors? You get Str 5 AP 5 standard weapons, 4+ armour saves, and marker lights. Besides if you get into close combat you are screwed no matter what your initiative is, you are Tau. Also, why should you get BS 4? Most units that get BS 4 are Space Marines who have fought for decades at least, Eldar who have trained in a tiny aspect of war their entire lives, or IG veterans who have fought for years against the toughest enemies in the galaxy.

I do miss 5 man Guardian squads. It certainly fits with the idea of a "dying race."

TheMind wrote:

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

The codex states that they 'strike like meltabombs', but the book is so old, 4-5 glance and 6 pen could be old meltabombs

evildrspock wrote:I like the idea of having one Guardian with more skills and putting it all together, but the mix and match feel suggests the Guardians have a more tactical, well rounded training, which they really don't; they're Eldar civilians thrown into battle. 3 special weapons AND a heavy weapon platform is a lot; with this ruleset, everyone would take 6 squads with 3 Fusion guns, a Fusion pistol and a Starcannon in Waveserpents, and destroy meq armies for cheap. Hello Ap 1 & 2!

If the Black guardian exists, he should be an upgrade character, not standard. Though I would say that Defensive Grenades for Guardian Defenders and Assault Grenades for Storm Guardians would be a nice 1ppm upgrade.

Good ideas, but I think the temptation with dreaming up new rulesets is far to easy too overpower the new rules.

I have never seen anyone suggest taking fusion guns for their Storm Guardians since the magic recipe to make them good is dual flamer + destlock. You've got to remember that while a fusion gun is certainly good, you're still paying a premium for it, even if it is pre-paid, and that it's still got to hit. The likelihood of having a Farseer with them on a mission like that is relatively low, so we're looking at three models amounting to an average of 1 killed marine per round - that's an estimate of 36 points shooting down between 14 and 30 points per round that they are within 12". Not a good power-to-cost ratio considering that they will most likely fail to do anything to even a small number of marines in melee.
As for the Black Guardian, the fusion gun is range 6" and exist as a strong, if costly, last ditch to pop a transport before assaulting GEQ inside. It's actually horribly overpriced at 10 points in my opinion, but that's what it costs at BS4 in all places I have seen it (though I haven't read most non-Eldar codices)

Here's the thing with Eldar, though, they are completely opposite of all other armies. Got a very expensive vehicle that needs piloting? Stick militia in it. Got a really esoteric piece of artillery? Man it with militia. Need special equipment towed around the battlefield? Give it to the militia. Need man power for the front line to hack at the enemy in melee? Send in the elites. Got a really specialized mission for which only certain equipment is suitable? There's an elite squad who can do nothing else.
This is how it is in the codex at the moment. Sticking more weapon options on the militia, arguably some of the weaker and more mass-producible ones at that, as well as giving them a bit more special weapons to pick and choose from is not deviating from the current Eldar design - though it is deviating from the design of every other codex out there! The Craftworlders are weird like that and they've got strange priorities. I'd also like to point out that the special weapons they can choose from 1-in-3 are the sort of weapons you'd expect Aspect Warriors to use 3-in-3. Except the Swooping Hawks, they are uselesserest.

P.s. a flamer on a squad of marines need to hit three marines in order to be as effective as a melta gun. Typically a flamer will hit 5 or more. Also, the Star Cannon is still useless, I just made the assumption it's closer to it's performance in cost (10 points maybe 15)

IHateNids wrote:

TheMind wrote:

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

The codex states that they 'strike like meltabombs', but the book is so old, 4-5 glance and 6 pen could be old meltabombs

"...hitting in the same way as grenades and meltabombs..."

Your compare-ese needs some work!

TheMind wrote:

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.

Did you ever try shooting at his infantry with fire warriors. The only thing Vets have going for them really are 3 SWs and firing ports on Chimeras, if you want to nerf guard take away one or the other. With your pulse weapons you automatically penetrate his armour (unless he takes carapace) and wound on a 2+. Also BS 4 only goes to soldiers who are extreme veterans, a generic Cadian has been training since their birth and still only gets BS 3.

Edit: If one wants BS 4 fire warriors take them as a limited troop choice, like a 0-3 troop choice with BS 4 like a Tau equivalent to IG vets.

Never mind...

It's useless, let's improve it.

Swooping Hawks.
Price: 12 points per model. (Same as Dire Avengers)
Skyleap: provides Turbo-boost instead.

Alternative.
Price: 14 points.
Jet Infantry.
Skyleap: provides turbo-boost.

Maht', I'd say a price decrease isn't what is really needed to make Swooping Hawks work, nor is 12pts arguably a fair price for any jump-infantry unit.

Dragosanii12 wrote:Death Company Tycho (Psycho Tycho) - one simple line in his rules stating something like COMPANY OF DEATH, although Death Company Tycho is not an independant character he may join units of Death Company in thier transports, he may still be picked out in shooting and close combat as normal but ignores the normal rules for transports only allowing a single unit to embark upon them.
Librarian Dreadnoughts - err hello, Extra Armour, everyone else gets it.
Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.
Dante - Eternal Warrior, i know a lot of people are against the proliferation of EW through out 40K but the guys a 1000+ y/o chapter master, surely (dont call him surley) he is the very definition of an "Eternal" Warrior.
I realise none of the above things are per say useless, i just think these would be good changes.

The title of this thread is "It's useless, lets make it better" none of those BA choices are useless, they are all very competitive and show up a lot. They do not need to be made any better.

secondly, 1000 or even 1500 years old seems rather young to me. Vect and a good number of DE are over 10,000 years old and remember the fall intimately. Some are older than the Emperor. Ditto with some of the craftworld Eldar. Yet only the phoniex lords have eternal warrior as if they take a lascannon to the face they bite it. The phoneix lords on the other hand have in their fluff instances of being killed, reduced to molten ruin, psykicly annaliated or what not and then coming back.

blood angels glaive encarmines (or what ever they are) should get a strengh bonus even if it is +1 i would seriously think about playing sanguinary guard, but idealy they should be like SM relic blades and give +2 strengh and no bonus attack for charging.

this is one thing that constsntly gets on my nerves

Well, 12 points is knee-jerk, but sometimes better isn't necessarily making a stronger unit, it might be simply pricing it according to it's performance as well.

It should be noted that I can only think of, off the top of my head, a single jump infantry unit which is priced similarly low and that are Stormboyz, which are essentially an Ork Boy with a jump pack that's (mostly) better than other races' jump packs and with special melee weapons which are... 1/3 along the way towards a power weapon.
Not a lot to compare to, but the lasblaster is an extremely low-powered weapon. Essentially the cost I derivated from taking a Dire Avenger and using this logic:
1. A Dire Avenger's clearly not worth 12 points, closer to 11, unless you're using Blade Storm.
2. A lasblaster has +6" range, but that's significantly less powerful than +1S.
3. Their deep strike is hard-countered by frag missiles, but it is a benefit if you take the greanade pack into account.
4. Riiight... I forgot about movement range completely. how utterly silly.

14 points is more appropriate, but I don't feel they are worth much more. This is, however, addressing the model without taking the rest of the codex into account.
In order to make the unit function the way it is currently designed, I say a significant price drop and an alteration to Skyleap. In order to actually make the unit fit in to the vaunted Eldar "there's an aspect warrior for each situation", their entire role needs to change.
However, since the codex itself isn't useless I felt that outside the debate

P.S. (P.P.S. not really relevant) It is my opinion, in general, that infantry models are priced generally too high and transport capacity generally too low. It is not my opinion that Wave Serpents are too costly, which they are if you compare them to other factions' transports, but rather that most transports are too cheap.

I'm getting so sick of tau players quequeing about firewarriors.

Fix the rest of the codex and bring firewarriors to 10 points, but otherwise leave them as-is. The problem isn't the firewarriors, the problem is the tau codex.

The only thing more risible is the idea that there is absolutely nothing salvageable about the CSM codex...

I agree with the swooping hawks, though. Take away their stupid yo-yo ability and make them a worthwhile unit in their own right. Like make them regular guardians, but with jump packs, deepstrike and an assault 3 (12") S3 Ap5 weapon for 15 points with the option to take a couple of eldar melta guns. Then you'd have a unit that would actually be similar to their analogues in other armies.

Not Guiardians. Swooping Hawks shoud be unique completely. They are aspect warriors.

Simply reducing the cost of Swooping Hawks doesn't make them necessarily usable, a good unit or fitting with fluff. Even at 12pts each I'd have a hard time justifying using Swooping Hawks. They could be what then? Suicide Haywire delivery, or weak anti-infantry? Do either of these fit with the Eldar concept of each unit having a use and value, particularly aspect warriors?
Should they even be made to fit a role of special weapon delivery like other codices? Like a suicide melta unit? Personally, I don't think so.

For example - and I'm not saying its a perfect solution, but myself I think it is a solution - in my Fandex they gain AP3 weapons, retain the use of their grenade packs, have improved hit-and-run abilities and are cheaper. To me, this gives them several roles, as a fragile yet pretty dangerous anti-infantry unit, that can strike anywhere and or, go back into reserves reliably to hit and run, or charge tanks with their haywire grenades, or if they don't use deep strike, they can't use their grenades, but can JSJ out of rapid fire response range, all the while threatening MeQ also.

Personally, for me, giving them viable uses and tactics is preferable to simply reducing their cost.

Now we're straying a bit, but.

The problem with whole concept of being a grenade delivery unit is that they have defence versus neither the explosion they could cause nor the infantry which are likely to move out of the vehicle. The whole concept of flying in to attach the rather mediocre Haywire grenades is laughable and also a very good target to fix in order to improve the unit.

This essentially leaves the use of their guns, or possibly giving them some sort of fly-by attack that we've seen on Dark Eldar jetbikes.
While AP3 certainly fills a unique niche, I don't particularly see how this is a foolproof way of going about it to give this particular unit a better fit to the fluff. Of course it is a good solution, but I am saying it's far from the best or most obvious. Which is also why I gave the alternative, which is simply to make them Jet Infantry (which I also think suits their wings better).

Another alternative which I know I've suggested in one or another Eldar discussion thread is to simply give them Haywire Launchers. This makes them threatening to any MEQ or lighter infantry with a high model cost as well as to vehicles, but makes them far more specialized in that they aren't a threat to TEQ, inexpensive MEQ, GEQ nor MCs.

Regardless, bottom line is, stuff don't need to be more powerful, sometimes cheaper is better. In the special case of the Eldar there's the added line "as long as it's not too cheap" and I think Dire Avengers sets the limit at bottom for Aspect Warriors.

---

Today I had a lesson in how Rippers aren't useless, btw.

Ailaros wrote:I'm getting so sick of tau players quequeing about firewarriors.

Fix the rest of the codex and bring firewarriors to 10 points, but otherwise leave them as-is. The problem isn't the firewarriors, the problem is the tau codex.

The only thing more risible is the idea that there is absolutely nothing salvageable about the CSM codex...

I agree with the swooping hawks, though. Take away their stupid yo-yo ability and make them a worthwhile unit in their own right. Like make them regular guardians, but with jump packs, deepstrike and an assault 3 (12") S3 Ap5 weapon for 15 points with the option to take a couple of eldar melta guns. Then you'd have a unit that would actually be similar to their analogues in other armies.

FW are already 10ppm. A fine cost if MarkerLights come down. If instead of Vets (which IMO is still a fair comparison, for the same cost of a full squad of FW and Vets the vets have BS4 and termie killing, veh popping weapons, but moving on) we compare to Kabalite warriors. 9ppm. BS4, WS4, I5. 5+sv, sure. I call the difference between a splinter rifle and a pulse rifle conditional and in that regard an equal weapon (in terms of usefulness across the game.) The PR is S5, which is great against T4 or less enemies. Amazing, really. The SR comes into its own at T6 or greater, but only when compared against the PR (as opposed to a bolter.) Oh yeah, and the Kabalite also has PFP, which the firewarrior will never get. And you REALLY think that BS4 on that model for 10 points is too much?

I disagree with BS4 for other reasons (primarily the erosion of the statline and the obselesance of Markerlights if BS is standard.) I'd rather see Bonding Knives and Shas'ui standard in a squad (included in the cost) and a +1 BS for each rank. Shasla = BS3, Shasui = BS4, Shasvre = BS5, Etc. Alternatively, I'd add the 4E IG "Sharpshooters" doctrine. Any time the Tau fires without the aid of a markerlight, they get to reroll failed to hit rolls of a one. This provides a marginal increase to BS without the added cost or stat erosion.

Cheapening Markerlights, improving Pathfinders, lowering the cost of Fish, or improving Fish mounted weapons are all better ways to improve the Tau army, IMO.

True, sometimes a point decrease is preferable to a skill boost, but IMHO a unit must remain usable even with a point decrease and considering how little damage they do, I don't think a point decrease is enough for hawks. Even when freakin' cheap, they are still worth a KP, use a FoC and are still unlikely to kill anything. Particularly with the Eldar and aspect warrior way of war, I think this is baaaad.

Whilst Haywire launchers do give them a very viable use as fast anti tank, it may make them too niche and goes against the fluff.

Personally, with my proposed changes, they don't contradict fluff (las weapons can be low AP) and they can JSJ like jet infantry providing they don't deepstrike, in which case (not deepstriking) they cannot use their grenade packs or strike anywhere, but they can reduce chances of getting counter-attacked, exchanging hitting power for safety. IMHO this gives them a variety of tactical uses whilst remaining true-to-fluff.

But that's all I really have to say on the matter. I've expressed my opinion and why I think there are much better ways to change 'hawks and make them viable units, and I don't think either a simple points reduction or use as suicide special weaponry delivery is what's needed and I'll leave it there.

Ailaros wrote:I'm getting so sick of tau players quequeing about firewarriors.

Fix the rest of the codex and bring firewarriors to 10 points, but otherwise leave them as-is. The problem isn't the firewarriors, the problem is the tau codex.

The only thing more risible is the idea that there is absolutely nothing salvageable about the CSM codex...

I agree with the swooping hawks, though. Take away their stupid yo-yo ability and make them a worthwhile unit in their own right. Like make them regular guardians, but with jump packs, deepstrike and an assault 3 (12") S3 Ap5 weapon for 15 points with the option to take a couple of eldar melta guns. Then you'd have a unit that would actually be similar to their analogues in other armies.

I agree, they're actually a surprisingly good compared to a lot of troop chaoices (30 inches wtf).

Yeah. Remember playing against all those Firewarrior gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Tau player brings as many 12 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T3 model with a 4+ save.

Yeah. Seriously I wish people would stop singing praises of a troop choice that nobody wants to bring. I really wish the PR didn't get an additional 6" range compared to the standard. In the mech heavy games I really never see that even being remotely useful.

It's not like Tau get all the sticks..

Savageconvoy wrote:Yeah. Remember playing against all those Firewarrior gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Tau player brings as many 12 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T3 model with a 4+ save.

Yeah. Remember playing against all those Eldar Guardians gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Eldar player brings as many 20 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. (exception here because people won't even bother paying for a transport, they will die anyway) How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T3 model with a 5+ save. And that can't actually do anything because their guns are gak, and if they fire them it means they are dead.

Yeah. Remember playing against all those Shoota Boyz gunlines? How those completely dominate the current environment. How every Ork player brings as many 30 man squads as possible. How they never leave them hiding in transports. (exception here because people won't even bother paying for a transport, they will die anyway) How everybody complains about how hard it is to kill a T4 model with a 6+ save.And that they have Nobz with Powa Klawz to deal with anything stupid enough to get into CC?

OhwaitIloveorkslol.