Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

BA captains could use a boost

Allow them to take relic blades for 20pts

Allow them to take Blood Talons for 50pts

I know I'm a terrible person when it comes to fixing, just tossing out ideas

If you look at points and effectiveness, you have ... (Forgive me, I don't know all the point values off the top of my head.

Tyranid Gaunt, 5-6 points
Imperial Guardsman, 5-6 points? (can't remember)
Orks in here
Eldar Guardian - 8 points
Dark Eldar Warrior - 9-10 points?
Tau Fire Warrior - 10 or 11?
Eldar Dire Avenger - 12 points
Space Marine - 16 points

(Don't know other armies points, like Necrons or Sisters, etc)

To get models with a 4+ armor save for under 10 points seems rare. 7 points is less than a Guardian, which IMO may deserve a points drop of 1 point too, but regardless ... to compare models in terms of their effectiveness and balance, I think the scale makes sense as it is.

Besides, with a Fire Warrior, you're just buying the gun anyways - the Fire Warrior is a free add-on.

a Necron warrior is 13 pts for WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 A1 I2 Ld10 Sv4+.
It has a bolter that automaticly glances any AV on a six
It can stand up from any weapon on a 5+, 4+ w/ resorb, unless the whole unit was destroyed

Immortals are the same stats with 3+ save and better weapons. They also have the option of a weapon that gets 2 free hits with a 6 to hit.

I think a FW should be 8 pts

@ Darkness Eternal.
I posted ...'As the rules set for 40k is not written OBJECTIVLEY for its game play.'
(Emphasis mine.)
Meaning the straight forward game play of 40k , is NOT translated into the the instructions to play the game , in the most elegant , intuitive or efficient way.

This is why the overall ballance of the game suffers and the rule set gets so bloated with add on rules.(USR, Special rules etc.)

Please continue discussing the symptoms of 40k using less than apropriate game mechanics...

Death Company Tycho (Psycho Tycho) - one simple line in his rules stating something like COMPANY OF DEATH, although Death Company Tycho is not an independant character he may join units of Death Company in thier transports, he may still be picked out in shooting and close combat as normal but ignores the normal rules for transports only allowing a single unit to embark upon them.

Librarian Dreadnoughts - err hello, Extra Armour, everyone else gets it.

Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.

Dante - Eternal Warrior, i know a lot of people are against the proliferation of EW through out 40K but the guys a 1000+ y/o chapter master, surely (dont call him surley) he is the very definition of an "Eternal" Warrior.

I realise none of the above things are per say useless, i just think these would be good changes.

Actually he is 1360+. 1000+ for being in command, 350 for time leading up to CM, 10-16 for his age before being a marine.

Dragosanii12 wrote:
Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.

Giving invuln save for Mephiston is fine, if you give him MC base and MC size (as he has MC statline). Or drop him to S5 T5...

Luide wrote:

Dragosanii12 wrote:
Mephiston - an invulnerable save? even just a 5+, many would say with his statline that this is un nessesary but it would be nice to have access to one maybe a close combat only one where by he could give up some attacks for a save like he was parrying or something.

Giving invuln save for Mephiston is fine, if you give him MC base and MC size (as he has MC statline). Or drop him to S5 T5...

I dont think his statline is that much better than Abaddons and he is a similar price and does not have EW and Abbadon has a 4+ invulnerable. Admitedly he is more mobile but only if he gest the power off and he cannot join a unit.

Dante - Eternal Warrior, i know a lot of people are against the proliferation of EW through out 40K but the guys a 1000+ y/o chapter master, surely (dont call him surley) he is the very definition of an "Eternal" Warrior.

The reason Dante isn't an Eternal Warrior is because he's so old he's already used up his extra lives.

For the BA captain, there's a simple fix - give them the same ability that captains in the vanilla codex get. If you stick a vanilla captain on a bike, you can take bike squads as troop choices. It'd even be fluffy for the BA, to boot.

Drop Mephiston to T5, 4 wounds and give him an iron halo (4++). Balanced, but better.

Death Company Tycho should be an upgrade character rather than an HQ choice - and should be able to order the death company around, negating rage for that unit only and making them controllable.

I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Give BA Tactical Squads access to heavy flamers, that way they don't have to remain static to fire their heavy weapon (HFlamers are assault, not "heavy").

Elite chaplains for BA should have the same 1-3 per elite slot as sanguinary priests, and litanies should have 6" bubbles across the board (for all marines, not just BA). Very underused units, because they only benefit one squad - compared to FC/FNP bubbles on the priests for half the price!?

Whirlwinds should be able to field squadrons instead of one per heavy support slot. Seems silly that they can't.

Chesh wrote:
I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Didnt chaplains used to do this for them? They should. Give a good reason to tack one on

kenshin620 wrote:

Chesh wrote:
I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Didnt chaplains used to do this for them? They should. Give a good reason to tack one on

Controllable Death Company=Broken codex.

They are supposed to beserkers (in the viking sense) just wind them up and let them go.

kenshin620 wrote:

Chesh wrote:
I would trade an ovary for a controllable death company... and I don't even HAVE ovaries.

Didnt chaplains used to do this for them? They should. Give a good reason to tack one on

yeah they did back in 2nd anyway, very useful ability, shame really.

I second calls for better BA Captains, more wargear options, on par with standard captains would be nice, they cant even take glaives encarmine, the BA signiture weapon, stupid.

captain collius wrote:
They are supposed to beserkers (in the viking sense) just wind them up and let them go.

First, I think Space Wolves already have some decent Beserkers

2nd, yes lets wind up these poor fellows into chasing around a squad of grots

I mean though it is true, true control would be a powerful asset.

Maybe have a D6 if theres a chaplain present, 1-3 they still have rage, 4-6 you can control them or something along those lines (but maybe they lose there rolls to wound with the chappy when under control)?

Take the DC back to the 4ed rules, but only for Tycho and Lemartes. Then put a limit on squad size that's a bit more realistic - like, 3-10 (including tycho/lemartes)

Then up Tycho and Lemartes' costs by 50 points each (so 225 point Tycho and 200 point Lemartes).

That would keep someone from fielding an all DC army with Astorath, and having it be too terribly broken.

Consider that a 10man DC (9x Death Company plus Lemartes - the cheaper of the two "special upgrade characters) would then cost 380 points buck naked - that's no power weapons/fists, jump packs, transports etc.

That sounds fair to me. That's 20 points less than a full 10man squad of terminators. And still buck nekkid.

CSM's - the entire codex except..erm. no.. wait..oh.. no.. nope, nothing. The entire codex.

I'd write replacement rules for an entire codex but I have more important things to do right now.. (like sit down and watch TV).

evildrspock wrote:To get models with a 4+ armor save for under 10 points seems rare. 7 points is less than a Guardian, which IMO may deserve a points drop of 1 point too, but regardless ... to compare models in terms of their effectiveness and balance, I think the scale makes sense as it is.

Besides, with a Fire Warrior, you're just buying the gun anyways - the Fire Warrior is a free add-on.

I'd say 'spock is pretty close to the money with this assessment of the price of Firewarriors.
With BS4, 10pts is very fair IMHO. Furthermore, I really don't think they should be BS4.

The best way to fix Firewarriors IMHO is to increase the Rapid Fire range of Pulse Rifles to 15", keep their statline the same (and not BS4) and reduce the cost to 8pts, possibly 9.
That's without changing the rest of the Tau Codex as is obviously needed.

Just Dave wrote:
The best way to fix Firewarriors IMHO is to increase the Rapid Fire range of Pulse Rifles to 15", keep their statline the same (and not BS4) and reduce the cost to 8pts, possibly 9.

What is this obsession with the 15" RF range? I mean, that's why Pulse Carbines are in the 'dex (and yes, they should be Assault 2).


Techpriest Engineseer:
- Rename it to Combat Engineseer - just for the coolness factor
- Give him a Refractor Field
- Give him Bolster Defences
- Give him an IC status
- Option for combi-weapons
- Allow the poor fella to take a Chimera as a dedicated transport

AtoMaki wrote:

Just Dave wrote:
The best way to fix Firewarriors IMHO is to increase the Rapid Fire range of Pulse Rifles to 15", keep their statline the same (and not BS4) and reduce the cost to 8pts, possibly 9.

What is this obsession with the 15" RF range? I mean, that's why Pulse Carbines are in the 'dex (and yes, they should be Assault 2).

The 15" Rapid Fire range allows them to make full use of their superior ranged weaponry and ability, without really having to expose themselves to close combat, where they are one of the worst units in the game.
By the time they've rapid fired, they're within assault range, and if rapid-firing a unit of astartes, the astartes will probably survive and then charge and murderise the Tau.

As for Pulse Carbines, personally, my solution for these would be to make them Assault 1. BUT, make greater use of the grenade-launcher function.

Those are my ideas for what would be, IMHO, an effective way to improve Tau Firewarriors, but this isn't the thread for it...

Just Dave wrote:
The 15" Rapid Fire range allows them to make full use of their superior ranged weaponry and ability, without really having to expose themselves to close combat, where they are one of the worst units in the game.
By the time they've rapid fired, they're within assault range, and if rapid-firing a unit of astartes, the astartes will probably survive and then charge and murderise the Tau.

Well, the Pulse Carbine has a range of 18", so the 3" boost on the Pulse Rifle's RF range still makes very little sense. Pulse rifles should have a superior long-range capability, like Heavy 2/Rapid Fire as weapon type.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

Veterans also have R24" S3 AP- gun and a 5+ save vs a R30" S5 AP5 gun and 4+ armor.

Fire Warriors are not even close to worse.

DarknessEternal wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

Veterans also have R24" S3 AP- gun and a 5+ save vs a R30" S5 AP5 gun and 4+ armor.

Fire Warriors are not even close to worse.

Yeah, you have a point there. Hold on, don't vets have the ability to take 4+ saves?

But Vets can take plasmaguns & meltas. Can FWs?

No, but these extra weapons is A) What makes Veterans viable, and B) the price is not incorporated into their base points-cost.

how many points is a meltavet?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Only?
That's odd. That means that they get +1 pt for a BS increase.
Ok, lets see...yeah, FW should be around 7-8 pts with BS4. They have a better gun and armor save, but they have worse I, worse WS and fewer options.

Veterans also have R24" S3 AP- gun and a 5+ save vs a R30" S5 AP5 gun and 4+ armor.

Fire Warriors are not even close to worse.

Yeah, you have a point there. Hold on, don't vets have the ability to take 4+ saves?

For 3pts each guy yes

Psst, no one takes those upgrades btw

IHateNids wrote:how many points is a meltavet?

17 (7+10). 20 (7+10+3) with a 4+ armour save.

17.

The total cost per vet with maximum meltas and rocket launchers is 115, or 120 with a lascannon - 12ppm. With just meltas, 10ppm.

right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

IHateNids wrote:right, and that gives BS4, excelent vs armour, ok vs infantry.

To give a fire warrior any hope against armour you give them EMP grenades for 4 ppm so 14ppm for a good all-round guy is good is it?

EMP Grenades are Meltabombs btw

Yeah, but if you're playing Tau, and NOT taking Battlesuits of some variety you're doing it wrong. Hell, just give them the BS increase. And keep them at 10. I know my buddies optional vets are a hell of a lot more useful then my mandatory fire warriors.