Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Leman Russ Punisher- As is it looks nice on paper, but honestly 20 str 5 ap - shots don't really do much. That and its short range and expensive, why take this and not a freakin demolisher?

If you are going to keep the points as-is, here's how I would change the Punisher's gun:

Str 6 AP6 Heavy 10 Range 36 Counts as twin-linked

Now you have something comparable to the exterminator, only with more armor, more shots, less range, less strength. It would make an effective anti-monstrous creature platform.

Deadshot wrote:I know!

The Dais is already nasty. Vect+Lelith+8 Bloodbrides in a flying Land Raider? No thanks.

Actually it's pretty useless atm. AV13 open topped is easy to kill. No FF hurt it and it's probably 20-50 points too expensive with no Aerial Assault. Also, I liked the assault mechanism on the old one and the dark scythe on the one in DoW Soulstorm.

Buttons wrote:

Just Dave wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I understand the furious charge, but why rending?

Personally, I suspect that it's because it seems pretty much everyone and their mothers seems to think Rending is the instant-fix/solution to any rules problem?

@Buttons, On-topic, 4 Strength 6 attacks on the charge is plenty anti-tank and perfectly suitable for representing their strength IMHO.
I'd say drop rending, up their leadership and depending on ripper guns and transport-capacity-occupying, they'd be worth about 30pts.

I actually did some quick math hammer and rending was worthless, in the Ogryn thread I came up with this idea that seems workable.
"... for every 2 strength greater than their target's toughness they (the target) have a -1 modifer on their armour saves. So a group of Ogryn with base strength 5, +2 strength due to weapons, and furious charge would modify MEQs to having a 5+ armour save, guards and Orks wouldn't get and armour save at all."

By worthless, you mean Rending allows them to penetrate a vehicle of any armour value, almost doubles the number of wounds against MeQ and makes them capable against targets of any armour value? With Rending, Ogryn's strike with the power of an Assault Cannon and harder than Thunderwolf Cavalry.

I don't see the need for the +2 Strength/save-modifier weapon either. To me, Ogryn should have a weakness and considering they fight with little more than their bare-fists, it makes sense that this weakness is a high armour save. With a +2 Strength weapon (let alone rending as well), they'd have 4 Str8, Initiative 4 attacks on the charge.
Ogryn still strike frickin' hard, [5 Ogryn's] still inflict over 3 penetrating hits (on average) on the charge against a Leman Russ and they still have 3 T5 wounds.
I'm not claiming them to be perfect or a particularly good unit, but I don't think rending is a suitable change - or worthless - and I don't think they really need save modifiers, but such a save modifier could work on the Bone'ead.
A unit doesn't need to ignore armour saves to be a viable assault units, so long as they have other strengths; just look at 'Zerkers, Orks etc. For Ogryn's, this additional ability can be their strength and toughness.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is Ogryn's main weakness is their high price; this is easy to change, and doesn't require abilities such as rending or other save modifiers; look at Grotesques for example.

Just Dave wrote:

By worthless, you mean Rending allows them to penetrate a vehicle of any armour value, almost doubles the number of wounds against MeQ and makes them capable against targets of any armour value? With Rending, Ogryn's strike with the power of an Assault Cannon and harder than Thunderwolf Cavalry.

Except it really doesn't help. Doing some math hammer a group of 5 Ogryn with a Bone'ead will average about 9.5 hits, so about 1.5 rending hits, I don't think one or two extra MEQs dead is as big a deal as you make it out to be, it only really makes a difference with terminators. Also, I would never use Ogryn to charge vehicles anyway because I have several cheaper and all around more useful options that won't run away if someone looks at them in a bad way. I could deep strike storm troopers, I could use a heavy weapon squad with lascannons, I could use a Vendetta, I could use a Vanquisher, I could use a Demolisher, I could use melta vets.

I don't see the need for the +2 Strength/save-modifier weapon either. To me, Ogryn should have a weakness and considering they fight with little more than their bare-fists, it makes sense that this weakness is a high armour save. With a +2 Strength weapon (let alone rending as well), they'd have 4 Str8, Initiative 4 attacks on the charge.

Except they are weak against most close combat armies, they lack the ability to punch through MEQs armour, and they lack the ability to cut through hordes of Orks, averaging only about 6 wounds on the charge. Woohoo I cut down 6 out of 30 boyz, oh happy days, just wait until they kill off 1/5th-2/5ths of my entire unit when they hit back. Honestly the only thing I could see them charging and winning are Tau battlesuits and maybe a monsterous creature since they have such a high strength and so many attacks.

Ogryn still strike frickin' hard, [5 Ogryn's] still inflict over 3 penetrating hits (on average) on the charge against a Leman Russ and they still have 3 T5 wounds.

Except as I said there is no need to use them against tanks. I would definitely use them against a tank if I got the chance, I am not debating that. I am debating that for a dedicated close combat unit they are pretty weak.

A unit doesn't need to ignore armour saves to be a viable assault units, so long as they have other strengths; just look at 'Zerkers, Orks etc. For Ogryn's, this additional ability can be their strength and toughness.

Except Zerkers and Orks both have a lot going for them, Zerkers have a 3+ armour save and won't run if you shoot at them a little, Orks are cheap and you can reasonably expect something to reach the enemy even without a transport. With Ogryn you NEED a transport limiting the size of your unit, you have poor morale and you are expensive. Beyond that, while each model has a lot of attacks they don't have that many as a whole and are pretty much tied with a 10 man squad of guardsmen for the total number of attacks on the charge.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is Ogryn's main weakness is their high price; this is easy to change, and doesn't require abilities such as rending or other save modifiers; look at Grotesques for example.

Except it is more than the price because they are practically worthless. I wouldn't take Ogryn for 10 points per model, because then I would have to buy a transport as well, I can't charge anything with a 3+ save because I will only kill like 3 models on the charge, and if I charge horde armies odds are I will simply get bogged down. The only use I could see for them is fighting an MC, or sitting back in a transport near an objective and charging the enemy if they get too close, maybe holding them off for 2 turns if I am lucky.

Buttons wrote:Except it is more than the price because they are practically worthless. I wouldn't take Ogryn for 10 points per model

In which case it's not worth continuing this debate, exaggeration or not.

http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.co.uk/2011/06/ogryns-shunned-abused.html

Lychguard

WS5, 2+, Stubborn



Flayed Ones

WS5 power weapons/rending (4+)

Ethereal
25 Pts
WS2
BS2
T3
S2
W2
I2
A2
LD10
5++
Special Rules: none

Totally better now.

Tactical Marines: May take 1 of any special weapon option available for every 5 marines.

Ork Vehicles: Gretchin Pilot standard.

Gretchin: Maximum squad size 100. Can have squigz.

Big Gunz: More of everything.


Sisters of Battle: Immolators don't suck again. Faith doesn't suck again. Canoness can be good again.

Gray Knights: Draigo doesn't win you the game when you field him. Something about this needs to be done.

Daemons: Can assault on deepstrike for dangerous terrain test. Troops pointcost reduction or stats buff. Furies have to be good, @Current cost +1I +1A Fleet. More unit options and daemonic gift toys.

Venom Cannon: Assault 2. At least. No more neg mod to vehicle pen. HVC is large blast assault 2.

Warriors 1/3 can take venom cannon / barbed.

Barbed: Toughness or Str on each model hit. Failed tests lower the unit's Ld by 1 for pinning. Pinning from this affects fearless units because it's not about fearlessness.

Warriors: W2 T5 or bring back eternal warrior synapse.

Monstrous Creatures + Poison - 2+ poison.

Monstrous Creatures: In synapse range, only lose 2 wounds instead of dying to ID weapons.

Trygon Prime - +30 points for synapse on top of the +40
Trygon - -20 points base.
Carnifex - -25 points base OR +2W
wargear differentials allowed, +1BS skill given, moar wargear choices. I want my dakkafexes. I want my CCfexes. I want to be able to mix and match. Optional: Ram ability, allowed to take them as elites if you take them 1/time

Elites Section: Ymgarl as GS upgrades. Pyrovores as Biovore alternates. Lictors in Fast Attack and Deathleaper as an upgrade. Lictors made so much better please they are so bad. Malanthropes as Zoanthrope upgrade, or as nonfoc unit. Remaining: Zoanthropes, Hiveguard. Everything that's needed >:C


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Savageconvoy wrote:Ethereal
25 Pts
WS2
BS2
T3
S2
W2
I2
A2
LD10
5++
Special Rules: none

Totally better now.

S2? Why S2 when no other Tau has S2? Not gonna touch anything else as you're obviously not big on Tau lore, or don't care, but even a glance at the book will tell you that S2 has no place in Tau.

chrisrawr wrote:

Savageconvoy wrote:Ethereal
25 Pts
WS2
BS2
T3
S2
W2
I2
A2
LD10
5++
Special Rules: none

Totally better now.

S2? Why S2 when no other Tau has S2? Not gonna touch anything else as you're obviously not big on Tau lore, or don't care, but even a glance at the book will tell you that S2 has no place in Tau.

I think he was being sarcastic

Ogryn are fine as they are, but rending would be a nice upgrade. That way they still have their primary role, but would be a little better against those things that they're just totally crappy against. Better idea than giving them power weapons.

The punisher is just fine as it is, it just needs to be brought down to 150 points like the LRBT or exterminator.

My unit to fix would be the vanquisher. 1 shot BS3 S8 opponents keep cover. Against AV14 when it's popping smoke that's a 1/2 to hit, times roughly 2/3 to pen, times 1/3 to kill, times 1/2 to get around cover. The odds are just too long to make this vehicle viable.

In order to fix it, you've got to make one or two of these odds improve drastically. Examples include making it twin-linked, making it S10, making it Ap1, or making it ignore cover saves. Or you could go a different tack and make it a heavy 2 weapon or give it back a blast so that it could do ANYTHING to infantry models.

On a similar note, the eradicator needs Ap3 like its artillery counterpart. Without Ap3, there is absolutely no reason to ever take this tank ever. Hike the price by 20 points if you have to, but this unit is unsalvageable otherwise.

Large hordes of campers? Shoota Boys or Termagants in cover?

Ailaros wrote:Ogryn are fine as they are, but rending would be a nice upgrade. That way they still have their primary role, but would be a little better against those things that they're just totally crappy against. Better idea than giving them power weapons.

The simplest change to make Ogryns a top of the line unit, instead of just in the middle, would be to let them have an upgrade Commisar the same as Infantry Platoons get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chrisrawr wrote:
Sisters of Battle: Immolators don't suck again. Faith doesn't suck again. Canoness can be good again.

Gray Knights: Draigo doesn't win you the game when you field him. Something about this needs to be done.

This thinking is objectively wrong.

Chaos Raptors............. 18 Points Each
- 5-20 models
- Same stats, but with 5 initiative standard
- All raptors may take a set of (Insert name here) for free if the chief does not take a shooting weapon, or for 2 points otherwise
- (insert name here)-- A set of (INH) counts as a single close combat weapon that adds two attacks to the models base stat. Furthermore, during the assault phase after a successful charge, models equipped with (INH) may re-roll failed rolls of 1 or 2.
- Four Models may take a melta gun, but only if the champion takes one, and (INH) may not be taken by any other models (10 points each)

- Raptor Chief
- A single raptor may be upgraded to a chief at a cost of 32 points. The Raptor Chief has the following profile:
5 4 4 4 2 5 5 10 3+
And may exchange his close combat weapon or bolt pistol for:
Power fist--- 25
Power Weapon--- 10
Lightning Claws (set)--- 15
Melta Gun--- 10 Points

May take a wrist mounted Melta gun or Plasma pistol for 20 points each. Note that the wrist mounted weapons do not count against the unit being able to take (INH) for free

Just some thoughts of mine. I've always imagined raptors would have a totally different organization, and I'm imagined there wouldn't be any mixed roles in a dedicated raptor unit, only definite, clear goals (ie, assault or tank busting or infantry mowing, which I didn't include).

DarknessEternal wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Ogryn are fine as they are, but rending would be a nice upgrade. That way they still have their primary role, but would be a little better against those things that they're just totally crappy against. Better idea than giving them power weapons.

The simplest change to make Ogryns a top of the line unit, instead of just in the middle, would be to let them have an upgrade Commisar the same as Infantry Platoons get.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chrisrawr wrote:
Sisters of Battle: Immolators don't suck again. Faith doesn't suck again. Canoness can be good again.

Gray Knights: Draigo doesn't win you the game when you field him. Something about this needs to be done.

This thinking is objectively wrong.

It appears our cynistical depulsors cannot handle this many gigalulz.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Chaos Raptors............. 18 Points Each
- 5-20 models
- Same stats, but with 5 initiative standard

Why? Their initiative is already fine.
- All raptors may take a set of (Insert name here) for free if the chief does not take a shooting weapon, or for 2 points otherwise

Samus_aran115 wrote:
- (insert name here)-- A set of (INH) counts as a single close combat weapon that adds two attacks to the models base stat. Furthermore, during the assault phase after a successful charge, models equipped with (INH) may re-roll failed rolls of 1 or 2.

What is a "successful charge"?
What are the re-rolling?
Why do you think Raptors should be both cheaper and better than Assault Marines? That line of wrong thinking produced Grey Hunters.

Samus_aran115 wrote:Just some thoughts of mine. I've always imagined raptors would have a totally different organization, and I'm imagined there wouldn't be any mixed roles in a dedicated raptor unit, only definite, clear goals (ie, assault or tank busting or infantry mowing, which I didn't include).

Raptors have no organization at all. They're just chaos marines that like jetting around fast and hanging out with other guys that jet around fast.

DarknessEternal wrote:Why do you think Raptors should be both cheaper and better than Assault Marines? That line of wrong thinking produced Grey Hunters.

I'm not saying I agree with Samus' proposed changes, but...

... Assault Marines are 18pts, with a 10pts upgrade for the sergeant; they would not be cheaper. N.B: Aspiring Champions are optional and 15pts each.
... Assault Marines are pretty weak, Raptors should be made better IMHO.

Painbiro wrote:In this thread, we shall list units that are currently useless... and write rules that make them better. Or even remotely useful.

Like, the Dais of Destruction...

Dais of Destruction - 300 (?) points (plus Vect's 240)

WS8 BS8 S3 Fr13 Sd13 Rr13 I5 A5

Fast, Skimmer, Open-Topped, Transport capacity 12

Wargear
As he is always an integral part of the Dais, Vect may use any of his weapons while on the Dais. Therefore, he may use his Obsidian Orbs or Splinter Pistol to fire from the Dais and while the Dais is in close combat he will attack with his Sceptre of the Dark City and Splinter Pistol. Note that it is he and his incubi bodyguards who are attacking in close combat, not the Dais itself.

The Dais itself is armed with a void lance and two void disintegrators, as well as Flickerfields and Night Shields.

Void Lance - 36", S9 AP2 Assault 1, lance (same as Voidraven)
Void Disintegrator - 36", S7 AP2 heavy 1, blast, rending OR 36", S4 AP3 Heavy 3

Special Rules
Aerial Assault

Personal Transport: Vect cannot dismount from the Dais of Destruction. The Dais also carries Vect’s two Incubi bodyguards, who will defend their master in close combat with 2 WS5 S4 power weapon attacks. When the Dais is destroyed Vect is treated like an embarked passenger, however his Incubi bodyguards are killed along with the vehicle crew.

Close Combat: The Dais fights in close combat like a walker and can charge 12”, providing it did not move flat out in its last movement phase. Due to its size and bulk, it counts as being equipped with frag grenades.

Dark Scythe: Once per game, Vect may channel his energy into the Dais’ Dark Scythe. He may not take any other action on the turn he does this except moving in the movement phase, although the Dais may only move at combat speed (6”).
The Dark Scythe has the following profile: Range, Hellstorm template, S10 AP1 Ordnance 1 Lance
The Dark Scythe will cause D3 hits to any vehicle it touches.

No Mercy, No Respite: The Dais is equipped with powerful force fields that make it almost immune to lesser damage. It ignores Crew Shaken results on a 2+ and Crew Stunned results on a 4+.

Options
+The Dais may replace any of its void disintegrators with void lances……free
+The Dais may replace its void lance with a void disintegrator………………free


Go! Re-write the rules for the units you currently think of as useless.

way too complicated.
just give it aerial assault, let it take vehicle upgrades, remove the capacity requirement, and make it cost 150 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Reaver Jetbikes:
Add scouts to allow them to outflank or scout move in the begining of the game. They can turbo boost but they cannot bladevane(as they cannot move within 12" of enemy units)

In addition if you roll a 1 for combat drugs let them run and give them fleet. But only if they roll a 1.

@DE I don't know if you know where you are, but this is the PR forum, where we propose changes to make our games more fun. What we are doing here, in this thread, is taking vanilla units or useless units - units that have no place in their codex for being subpar options, or units we just want to see changes happen in - and proposing things to make them better.

With that context in mind, I'm sure you'll be happy to pitch in with some changes of your own, instead of telling other people their fun is wrong fun?

A successful charge is a charge that has been found to be in range. It's a carry-over term from WHFB which a lot of converts use and which has stuck-in the 40k community.

Eldar Shining Spears - Ram attack where they get bonuses depending on how far they moved. Forgo movement in the movement phase, move up to 24" in the assault phase in one direction. Declare distance before charging, the closer you are to the declared distance, the more of a bonus you get? Rewards you for something other than just declaring max distance :V

Eldar Vypers, Guardians.

I support Just Dave's Eldar Codex rules changes for them.
Give Vypers an assault move, like Eldar Jetbikes. Give Guardians something neat like Scout, so they can Outflank, be more mobile (basic Eldar should be very fast to offset their poor strength/toughness, and poor BS on guardians)

Vanilla Assault Marines, make them less expensive, maybe more grenade or weapons options. Something to make them more effective. Like allow them to take Tactical Squad gear? Jump Marines with Bolters and Plasmaguns vs assault weapons? Hmm, sounds fun at least.

I fully believe EVERY UNIT in the game should have at least 1 reason to use it. Make every unit worth bringing, tactically.

The rule book....
It fails to deliver the game play most games manage with less than HALF the pages of rules.
Its clunky counter intuitive game mechaics and resolution methods are fine for pimping new minature releases .But make acceptable levels of game ballance nearly impossible.
Internal and external ballance across the armies, as well as rule set complication to game complexity.
Mainly due to using inapropriate game mechanics that need several resolution methods to cover ONE interation

Looking at Epic Armageddon rule set as a comparison. the current 40k rules achive very little in the way of game complexity , but take alot of words to do it!

All the post so far about how things are useless , can only be viewed as subjective opinion.As the rules set for 40k is not written objectivley for its game play.
(If it was the rules book would only be 20 to 30 pages long!And it would be far easier to achive game ballance,too!)

Please feel free to continue to discuss the symptoms of a rule set that is in desperate need of a re-write...

Lanrak wrote:.As the rules set for 40k is not written objectivley for its game play.

Not only is this false, it's impossible. The 40k rulebook is the book which contains the rules. It is, by definition, written for its game play.

vannila Assaultmarines are kind of useless as written. To make them not useless I would change the rules for jump packs.

Jump packs: all the same movement rules plus, Death from a Above: when a unit equiped with jumpack charges, for each model equiped with a jumppack inflict a strength 4 hit. Resolve wounds as normal but these attacks occure before the start of the assault phase and ignor armour.

Basically give assault marines 5 auto hit poweweapon attacks at S4 when they charge.

Hell no to ignore armor, but a straight S4 hit is fine.
The only other thing that could do that is Zagstruck, and he's a special character with a friggen power klaw for a foot.

Back to ogryns you can't argue the rules are rubbish because in the fluff it's says there epic (or it might not but that seems to be what people make of it) because if you read the fluff for any thing they are epic because otherwise you could say that because scarabs can convert all and any matter into pure energy you could say that they ignore armour saves instant death and auto wound!

Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

mandrakes to start the game WITH a pain token, thats all I ask :3

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

I don't believe so. I would contend, after talking to many of the players in my local group, and reading what I could of Fire Warriors on the web, that even with the increase to BS 4 that the point decrease is still necessary. Given this, a standard Space Marine, with the vastly superior statline, 3+ save, and similar unit size, is only 5 points more then a Fire Warrior right now, while being VASTLY superior. (Not sure if we're allowed to post points values of models). Guardsmen cost half as much per model, but have a special rule that allows them to form squads of thirty, have a crap ton more options, and have the Orders system, which allows them to twinlink their weapons for a turn, fire twice in a turn, for a turn (while already having a weapon with rapid fire), or even rally after failing a rally check. Hell a Guard vet squad, where the models only cost two points more then regular vet squads, can take three melta guns and sit pretty at less then the cost of a full squad of un-upgraded fire warriors.

TheMind wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

I don't believe so. I would contend, after talking to many of the players in my local group, and reading what I could of Fire Warriors on the web, that even with the increase to BS 4 that the point decrease is still necessary. Given this, a standard Space Marine, with the vastly superior statline, 3+ save, and similar unit size, is only 5 points more then a Fire Warrior right now, while being VASTLY superior. (Not sure if we're allowed to post points values of models). Guardsmen cost half as much per model, but have a special rule that allows them to form squads of thirty, have a crap ton more options, and have the Orders system, which allows them to twinlink their weapons for a turn, fire twice in a turn, for a turn (while already having a weapon with rapid fire), or even rally after failing a rally check. Hell a Guard vet squad, where the models only cost two points more then regular vet squads, can take three melta guns and sit pretty at less then the cost of a full squad of un-upgraded fire warriors.

How many points are vets? Cause FW should be cheaper than them, no question. Vets are 12pts aren't they?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

TheMind wrote:Firewarriors
Increase to BS 4
Decrease cost to 7 points per model

Devilfish
Decrease cost to 35pnts

Isn't 7 points a bit low? I would think 10pts is more like it.
Is there a frame of reference for a WS2 (I think) BS4 T3 S3 I2 A1 Sv4+ model that comes with an S5 AP5 rifle?

I don't believe so. I would contend, after talking to many of the players in my local group, and reading what I could of Fire Warriors on the web, that even with the increase to BS 4 that the point decrease is still necessary. Given this, a standard Space Marine, with the vastly superior statline, 3+ save, and similar unit size, is only 5 points more then a Fire Warrior right now, while being VASTLY superior. (Not sure if we're allowed to post points values of models). Guardsmen cost half as much per model, but have a special rule that allows them to form squads of thirty, have a crap ton more options, and have the Orders system, which allows them to twinlink their weapons for a turn, fire twice in a turn, for a turn (while already having a weapon with rapid fire), or even rally after failing a rally check. Hell a Guard vet squad, where the models only cost two points more then regular vet squads, can take three melta guns and sit pretty at less then the cost of a full squad of un-upgraded fire warriors.

How many points are vets? Cause FW should be cheaper than them, no question. Vets are 12pts aren't they?

Vets are 7 points a pop. A squad of 9 and a sergeant is 70 pnts.