Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

One week and $5K to go - I hope he makes it!

I hope he fulfills his obligations.

Breotan wrote:I hope he fulfills his obligations.

Could someone expand on this? I'm on the fence with backing this, and I keep reading "bad stuff," that would potentially prevent me from doing so, but it's a bit unclear what the problem "fulfilling obligations" has been, and in what context.

Anything?

If you read the entire thread it has been clearly stated multiple times that he has had trouble getting pre-orders on his plastic chaos warriors to people. People pre-ordered these months ago and are still waiting for their items to arrive. Some people find it unseemly that he hasn't met all his previous obligations and is asking for money for future products.

cincydooley wrote:

Breotan wrote:I hope he fulfills his obligations.

Could someone expand on this? I'm on the fence with backing this, and I keep reading "bad stuff," that would potentially prevent me from doing so, but it's a bit unclear what the problem "fulfilling obligations" has been, and in what context.

Anything?

A few months ago AoW created their War Cast Warriors of Apocalypse



Obviously these guys generated tons of hype since these were not warriors of chaos with ALL the options and way better posed. However this huge demand push completely overwhelmed AoW and even though these guys are fully comlete, the production is bottlenecked and people who pre ordered these are literally waiting months to get them

He's basically still way out on orders for his other products and now AOW is talking about sculting and producing another entire line of models when he hasn't managed to keep up with the first batch. I've heard of people that placed orders 6 months ago that have not yet received their product.

Yes, I read the entire thread. People stating, "I haven't got my minis yet," doesn't really tell you that much. I was more curious as to why. And could have done without the condescending commentary.

So it is, presumably, a production issue, in that AoW are doing small batch casts, etc. Has there been any elaboration on that? I mean, we've seen how backed up a much larger company can get (PP) in terms of getting product to market.

People also seem to be turned off by the sculptor in general due to his attitude. Which is unfortunate, because their sculpts are wonderful.

The sculptor/owner isn't very open about his business from what I've seen so I don't know personally if there has been any explanation outside of telling people he's behind. And I agree that his sculpts are amazing so it makes the issues with the business doubly sad.

And if you consider what either myself or kenshin said condescending then you probably need thicker skin. Going back and reading our replies I don't see anything that could be construed that way even over the toneless internet....

Hulksmash wrote:The sculptor/owner isn't very open about his business from what I've seen so I don't know personally if there has been any explanation outside of telling people he's behind. And I agree that his sculpts are amazing so it makes the issues with the business doubly sad.

And if you consider what either myself or kenshin said condescending then you probably need thicker skin. Going back and reading our replies I don't see anything that could be construed that way even over the toneless internet....

Naw, didn't mean you two, actually. The brettz dude that referred sarcastically to me "reading the entire thread." No worries on your part. I should have been more clear.

I'm so on the edge for this project because the plastic Berzerkers I have are some of my favorite plastics, period. They're so staggeringly good.

Well thats the big thing that disturbs me, AoW is good, I mean REALLY good! They have shown to have some of the best stuff out there, especially their plastics. I'm just worried that because of how things are right now, too much distrust and mistakes would snowball and put a permanent stain on AoW.

It must be the production method coupled with huge demand that's causing it. I got my Berserkers in good time, and they are indeed lovely.

Nice! Shows what a few good-value perks can do

Felix is a brilliant sculptor.

The situation is that he views the Kickstarter as a form of pre-order to get profit from rather than an investment.

This means that there is little "additional value" as found in other Kickstarters, as the costs are comparable to buying the figures from retail when they are in stock.

They also still have not managed to ship product that people ordered in Jan-Feb, and so it seems quite ..unseemly that he's decided to start a fundraiser without having completed fulfilling his existing obligations. Communication regarding the Apoc warriors and the delays to his customers that have paid has also been poor.

I'd personally love to throw a pile of money his way, but frankly I don't trust them enough to pre-pay for a bunch of figures 6 months or a year in advance. I'll just buy them (for the same or less) once they hit retail. - like I do with his range anyway.

Well, he clearly learned that better perks = more pledges, since those 3 $500 "sculpt your own hero" (which also included a lot of dwarfs, so was more like $300 for the sculpt) went really quick.

But agreed about not wanting to order direct from them until they improve on delivering...

One reward I'm surprised he didn't do was a painted dwarf regiment. Unit of 20 guys painted to top quality for say $1-2000. Believe people would have jumped at that. Know Zombiecide had it where the main painter for CMoN would paint your figs in the game for $3000. They all sold out. Five of those would close that final gap.

They're very close to 20k now. I think they'll get there.

This is quite a strange tactic for a crowdsourcing project. Eschew the idea of added value for the customer and don't use the market leader in the field (Kickstarter). Does he overwhelmingly sell direct to the customer instead of through retail channels? I can't see how offering more minis would cut so severely into his profits as to make the option this unlikely... considering he takes 50% off the price to get his products into the retail pipeline. Part of the reason companies offer these deals is because they're selling direct to consumers and can afford to offer more with the two normal middlemen (distributor, store) cut out.

silent25 wrote:One reward I'm surprised he didn't do was a painted dwarf regiment. Unit of 20 guys painted to top quality for say $1-2000. Believe people would have jumped at that. Know Zombiecide had it where the main painter for CMoN would paint your figs in the game for $3000. They all sold out. Five of those would close that final gap.

There was one - it was 40 painted dwarves for $600, IIRC.

They didn't sell a one in the first two weeks or so, they dropped it when they shuffled the rewards around a bit.

warboss wrote:This is quite a strange tactic for a crowdsourcing project. Eschew the idea of added value for the customer and don't use the market leader in the field (Kickstarter). Does he overwhelmingly sell direct to the customer instead of through retail channels? I can't see how offering more minis would cut so severely into his profits as to make the option this unlikely... considering he takes 50% off the price to get his products into the retail pipeline. Part of the reason companies offer these deals is because they're selling direct to consumers and can afford to offer more with the two normal middlemen (distributor, store) cut out.

While I won't defend most the decision, going with Indiegogo wasn't necessarily a bad idea. As I understand Kickstarter has issues with accepting and processing payment to and from some European companies. Rest I agree, Felix could have sold the product for far less and generated far more excitement. Mantic is essentially offering their product at cost to get the capital to pursue further ventures. Yes Mantic is not making much up front, but they will have a large number of figures funded and produced. Once the crowdsourcing is over they sell all those figs for normal and make the profit. Plus they have all the people who committed to the crowdsource now playing and pushing their game for further sales.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scipio.au wrote:They're very close to 20k now. I think they'll get there.

I don't think so. They would need another 20 - 30 people to go with the $190 option. I don't see anyone going with the $1000 option and there are no other options above $190 left.

At this point, Felix might be considering putting in the last 2k or so himself to secure the rest of the funding. Then again, maybe not given some of his decisions...

I honestly can't understand why Felix didn't offer an Indiegogo exclusive Dwarf character to higher pledges, or maybe even a warcast champion upgrade sprue similar to what they included in the Warriors of Apoc pre-orders. Something to give people an actual incentive to purchase them now instead of just waiting 8 months until they're released.

It makes me kinda sad too look at all the miniatures in the higher stretch goals that may potentially never be created (The multi-part female dwarfs for example.) simply because of how poorly this campaign has been run so far.

cincydooley wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:The sculptor/owner isn't very open about his business from what I've seen so I don't know personally if there has been any explanation outside of telling people he's behind. And I agree that his sculpts are amazing so it makes the issues with the business doubly sad.

And if you consider what either myself or kenshin said condescending then you probably need thicker skin. Going back and reading our replies I don't see anything that could be construed that way even over the toneless internet....

Naw, didn't mean you two, actually. The brettz dude that referred sarcastically to me "reading the entire thread." No worries on your part. I should have been more clear.

I'm so on the edge for this project because the plastic Berzerkers I have are some of my favorite plastics, period. They're so staggeringly good.

Actually it wasn't meant to be sarcastic just a heads up that it had been discussed already thats all. But you are correct that I should not have phrased it that way because it was rude so I apologize.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:This is quite a strange tactic for a crowdsourcing project. Eschew the idea of added value for the customer and don't use the market leader in the field (Kickstarter). Does he overwhelmingly sell direct to the customer instead of through retail channels? I can't see how offering more minis would cut so severely into his profits as to make the option this unlikely... considering he takes 50% off the price to get his products into the retail pipeline. Part of the reason companies offer these deals is because they're selling direct to consumers and can afford to offer more with the two normal middlemen (distributor, store) cut out.

My understanding is that Kickstarter is only for US companies which is why Zombiecide and Sedition Wars are actually dont through Cool Mini or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scipio.au wrote:At this point, Felix might be considering putting in the last 2k or so himself to secure the rest of the funding. Then again, maybe not given some of his decisions...

It looks like it is picking up so my guess would be that during the next 6 days he will get there.

I hope so, as I want to buy lots of Dwarves from Felix.

When, you know, they are finish and listed as 'in stock', of course!

brettz123 wrote:My understanding is that Kickstarter is only for US companies...

...like, mantic?

no, you need a US based bank account. that's about it. getting an amazon payments account is not *that* hard for non US companies, it just takes a little effort and organization.
...which given the highly ineffective way he handles every aspect of business besides the sculpting itself, makes it hardly surprising he picked IGG.

ThomasPolder wrote:

brettz123 wrote:My understanding is that Kickstarter is only for US companies...

...like, mantic?

no, you need a US based bank account. that's about it. getting an amazon payments account is not *that* hard for non US companies, it just takes a little effort and organization.
...which given the highly ineffective way he handles every aspect of business besides the sculpting itself, makes it hardly surprising he picked IGG.

Interesting that makes sense. Still makes it a little hard for European based companies though. Seems like it would be a good idea for kicksarter to branch out a little bit.

Alpharius wrote:I hope so, as I want to buy lots of Dwarves from Felix.
When, you know, they are finish and listed as 'in stock', of course!

I keep on waiting for Witch Elves ... at least until GW finally makes them end of next year.

Kroot, we got it, you wanted witch elves, they didn't come through with them

This is all about DWARF awesomeness, though... and since it's a passion of the sculptor, much more likely to be made!

RiTides wrote:Kroot, we got it, you wanted witch elves, they didn't come through with them

This is all about DWARF awesomeness, though... and since it's a passion of the sculptor, much more likely to be made!

I think though, that helps explain a problem of this, I was going to say Kickstarter, but IGG I 'spose; he's passionate about Dwarves... but there doesn't seem to be a desire for them. Now, perhaps there really is an untapped market for dwarves out there, but rigidity on the part of the producer is a definite negative.

I read the thread Scipio posted in, and, wow, the difference between the attitude McVey and the Mantic people have and Felix is night and day. It seems almost like he's antagonistic towards the whole endeavor, it really does not give one a good feeling about investing (and it really is an investment, not a pre-order).

More then anything though, the whole interaction shows that Felix simply does not understand what these crowd sourcing instruments should be used for. His gripes about how he can't squeeze a profit from it are just mind boggling. McVey's Sedition Wars effort is, to my mind, the best Kickstarter I have seen for a very simple reason: it was set up in such a way that once they reached funding, they had a guarantee that they would have the tooling to produce the minis at a cheap enough to really give a good deal to the backers.

That's the key, I think: the initial goal is something, like tooling the injection molds for plastics, that really make it an investment. Felix isn't doing that. He's really just trying to do really, really speculative pre-orders.

Given the stories of back-orders mounted up, I would have very serious doubts about this plan. He's not revolutionizing his business (as McVey is, moving from resins and limited sculpts to mass production), he's just doing the same thing he is already doing... but he's doing it badly already.

Buzzsaw wrote:I think though, that helps explain a problem of this, I was going to say Kickstarter, but IGG I 'spose; he's passionate about Dwarves... but there doesn't seem to be a desire for them. Now, perhaps there really is an untapped market for dwarves out there, but rigidity on the part of the producer is a definite negative.

I think there's a huge market for his dwarfs, especially when their new army book hits (later this year, or early next?).

I think the so-so performance of this fundraiser has been almost exclusively due to the fact that the perks create very little incentive to get in on it. If there were better, I may have gotten in myself. And when he put in better perks, the contributions jumped up... but he doesn't have any good value and low cost perks.

As it is, I will gladly order his fantastic sculpts in the future, if I so choose- but through a store or distributor rather than direct.

RiTides wrote:

Buzzsaw wrote:I think though, that helps explain a problem of this, I was going to say Kickstarter, but IGG I 'spose; he's passionate about Dwarves... but there doesn't seem to be a desire for them. Now, perhaps there really is an untapped market for dwarves out there, but rigidity on the part of the producer is a definite negative.

I think there's a huge market for his dwarfs, especially when their new army book hits (later this year, or early next?).

I think the so-so performance of this fundraiser has been almost exclusively due to the fact that the perks create very little incentive to get in on it. If there were better, I may have gotten in myself. And when he put in better perks, the contributions jumped up... but he doesn't have any good value and low cost perks.

As it is, I will gladly order his fantastic sculpts in the future, if I so choose- but through a store or distributor rather than direct.

That + his delivery issues to date on other 'pre-order' type items + his 'odd' attitude towards constructive criticism = lackluster performance.

But really it all comes down to the bad perks!