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Lol I always speak my mind everywhere I go, thats why I got banned from confrontation forums, and ConfUk and got some comments erased when CMON bought TTGN... You like CMON? Well I don't... why? Their past practices, the way they turn everything hobby into money greed empty vessels ( another subject for another thread).

If you feel GW gives a bigger bang for your money thats ok its a respectable personal opinion... coming to a forum speaking of the industry and respectable small business's like they are a bunch of incompetent amateurs is NOT.

NAVARRO wrote:Lol I always speak my mind everywhere I go, thats why I got banned from confrontation forums, and ConfUk and got some comments erased when CMON bought TTGN... You like CMON? Well I don't... why? Their past practices, the way they turn everything hobby into money greed empty vessels ( another subject for another thread).

If you feel GW gives a bigger bang for your money thats ok its a respectable personal opinion... coming to a forum speaking of the industry and respectable small business's like they are a bunch of incompetent amateurs is NOT.

I never said I liked CMON, this is really not about my likes or dislikes. I walked away from GW and I haven't gone back, doesn't mean I can't see some positives in the company or it's products.

You say you always speak your mind, well, that's fair enough, but you seem to have an issue if someone else speaks theirs?

When I use the term amateur, I'm talking about these guys from a business perspective (exclusively, from a business perspective), I would have to be blind, deaf and dumb not to see the elegance of Infinity miniatures range, and the talent from guys like Stuido McVey (painting wise) and Hasslefree's sculpting.

But awesome talent (or even learned skill) does not make a person a good businessman or woman. The big players in the industry have taken a business like approach to wargaming....my god, they have too, when you consider the logistics, supplier involvement, retail management direct or indirect, all of these things have naught to do with how good someone can sculpt or paint, but it does come to down to business management. I could write a whole essay on how Infinity, MERCS, and others could improve their "business", their new product introduction and supplier management (which in some cases would be actually employing and managing suppliers), but in each case there would be risk, and most of the guys don't want to take on that kind of risk for fear of losing big time.

The problem is, I get the impression that certain companies are waiting to "get big" and then they intend to diversify or expand their products....catch 22, without doing that diversification and expansion up front, they will never get big....how can they? Consumers can only buy what's on offer, not many people thrive on promises and maybes!!

This is what I mean by amateur.......I hope that is clearer.

If thats what you mean from amateur you should not add the, half harsed products, excuses , they want success but don't deliver etc etc comments on the same paragraph.
I have no problems people speaking what they want and I can ignore people who have not been around long enough to see at the full picture from a wider perspective... but you? Thats why I told I was disappointed with your comments because they are not just a opinion they are judgemental towards something you should have seen... and to be honest they are just false... these guys are many times much more involved and professional than GW ceos...

NAVARRO wrote:these guys are many times much more involved and professional than GW ceos...

I think it is great that you stick up for the little man in the garage, but this is getting a bit silly.

NAVARRO wrote:If thats what you mean from amateur you should not add the, half harsed products, excuses , they want success but don't deliver etc etc comments on the same paragraph.

Well, within the context of business, the products are below par.

Look, this is my impression from both the company and consumer sider.

Someone entering the tabletop wargaming market needs to understand who they're going up against. If they do thier homework they are goning to come across GW again and again, and as such, this is going to be their biggest competitor. What goes through the mind of someone starting up in the gaming industry who doesn't even hope to come close to rivalling GW? Probably, they're either looking for a big one off bang and then you'll never hear from them again, or....they're looking to start and stay just a small producer (probably in someones basement, garage or attic) and will no doubt be doing it as some kind of sideline to their "real" job.

From a consumer point of view, you want a game that will have "regular" products (rules, fluff or miniatures), you want to see the game supported, you want to see the producer doing everything they can to provide a wide player base for you to enjoy their game, and most of all you want to know that the game will be around in 5 years time, so you want longevity.

If a guy is doing this from his basement, garage or attic and it's just a sideline, there's a good chance that when there comes a bump in the road in his life, the first thing he'll do is drop that sideline....or, he'll put ot on hold. The product won't expand beyond what it is, and the likelihood of new and "regular" products coming out is as slim as a cat-walk model.

We could argue this point forever, unfortunately, there are too many "new" companies that seem to operate from this basis, and that's why they'll never be serious contenders for GW's throne, and it's also why people will continue to pay GW's costs.

NAVARRO wrote:I have no problems people speaking what they want and I can ignore people who have not been around long enough to see at the full picture from a wider perspective......

The full picture and wider perspective is not as complex as you seem to think it is. The general rule for business these days is grow or die.....albeit a slow and lingering death, but death is nonetheless the alternative. Anyone who has a spare pound can go onto Companies House and find the accounts for any of the small gaming companies (UK only), and you can see quite clearly how they are "surviving" and how well they're growing, you can also see if they're living hand to mouth, or subsidising their "business" with a constant stream of owners capital. In most cases you'll probably find that companies product introduction ties in with how much capital they can generate, so it stands to reason that if their products are not expanding they have little or no capital to invest in growth....well fine, you now have Kickstarter for that problem.....and what are the people who are pledging money?....that's right, their investors....albeit for a limited time and on a product specific basis, but they're investors no less.....all GW has done is secure "permanent" investors which gives them far greater range to create as they see fit.

NAVARRO wrote:but you? Thats why I told I was disappointed with your comments because they are not just a opinion they are judgemental towards something you should have seen... and to be honest they are just false... these guys are many times much more involved and professional than GW ceos...

Arn't all opinions judgements (hopefully) based on what a person has seen? And look at your last statement, the stuff in bold?!? After berrating me for judgmental thinking, you then go and say that? So those CEO(s?) for GW are unproffesional, and yet they preside over the most successful wargames company on the planet? Yeah, that statement seems to be bathed in truth when compared to my lies!?!? Plus how can someone who conducts their business in their spare time be more "involved" then someone who does it as a full time job? Or are you classing "involvement" as having a presence on an internet forum?!? If so, that does indicate your level of understanding when it comes to business.

Bat Manuel wrote:I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

This is the crux of the matter, I think.

I recognize that GW products are a totally unnecessary extravagance, and I buy their products anyway. If it became to expensive, I think I'd probably stop doing that. You know, without getting quite so cranky about it.

Delephont wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:If thats what you mean from amateur you should not add the, half harsed products, excuses , they want success but don't deliver etc etc comments on the same paragraph.

Well, within the context of business, the products are below par.

Look, this is my impression from both the company and consumer sider.

Someone entering the tabletop wargaming market needs to understand who they're going up against. If they do thier homework they are goning to come across GW again and again, and as such, this is going to be their biggest competitor. What goes through the mind of someone starting up in the gaming industry who doesn't even hope to come close to rivalling GW? Probably, they're either looking for a big one off bang and then you'll never hear from them again, or....they're looking to start and stay just a small producer (probably in someones basement, garage or attic) and will no doubt be doing it as some kind of sideline to their "real" job.

From a consumer point of view, you want a game that will have "regular" products (rules, fluff or miniatures), you want to see the game supported, you want to see the producer doing everything they can to provide a wide player base for you to enjoy their game, and most of all you want to know that the game will be around in 5 years time, so you want longevity.

If a guy is doing this from his basement, garage or attic and it's just a sideline, there's a good chance that when there comes a bump in the road in his life, the first thing he'll do is drop that sideline....or, he'll put ot on hold. The product won't expand beyond what it is, and the likelihood of new and "regular" products coming out is as slim as a cat-walk model.

We could argue this point forever, unfortunately, there are too many "new" companies that seem to operate from this basis, and that's why they'll never be serious contenders for GW's throne, and it's also why people will continue to pay GW's costs.

NAVARRO wrote:I have no problems people speaking what they want and I can ignore people who have not been around long enough to see at the full picture from a wider perspective......

The full picture and wider perspective is not as complex as you seem to think it is. The general rule for business these days is grow or die.....albeit a slow and lingering death, but death is nonetheless the alternative. Anyone who has a spare pound can go onto Companies House and find the accounts for any of the small gaming companies (UK only), and you can see quite clearly how they are "surviving" and how well they're growing, you can also see if they're living hand to mouth, or subsidising their "business" with a constant stream of owners capital. In most cases you'll probably find that companies product introduction ties in with how much capital they can generate, so it stands to reason that if their products are not expanding they have little or no capital to invest in growth....well fine, you now have Kickstarter for that problem.....and what are the people who are pledging money?....that's right, their investors....albeit for a limited time and on a product specific basis, but they're investors no less.....all GW has done is secure "permanent" investors which gives them far greater range to create as they see fit.

NAVARRO wrote:but you? Thats why I told I was disappointed with your comments because they are not just a opinion they are judgemental towards something you should have seen... and to be honest they are just false... these guys are many times much more involved and professional than GW ceos...

Arn't all opinions judgements (hopefully) based on what a person has seen? And look at your last statement, the stuff in bold?!? After berrating me for judgmental thinking, you then go and say that? So those CEO(s?) for GW are unproffesional, and yet they preside over the most successful wargames company on the planet? Yeah, that statement seems to be bathed in truth when compared to my lies!?!? Plus how can someone who conducts their business in their spare time be more "involved" then someone who does it as a full time job? Or are you classing "involvement" as having a presence on an internet forum?!? If so, that does indicate your level of understanding when it comes to business.

So many convoluted ideas and statements in one post.... I will not quote post everything or I would be here all night I will reply by numbered topics ok?

1- Products below par? What par? Finecast?! Are you trying to say GW minis are the measure all should aspire?
2- There are plenty of different companies with different goals... again why should all aspire to follow GW biz model? Thats bidimensional theres lots of layers of options... one of the companies I mentioned I know the fella does it because he just likes it and guess what delivers constant products for years in a row...
3- Games 5 years support minimum? and GW does that? Are you kidding me? How many games did they forgot?
4- Why all should even aspire to have a game and not just produce minis period? Again different goals not everything is black and white.
5- You keep putting a negative twist to small companies with - garage attic comments...
6- From a consumer point of view? Or from YOUR point of view... consumers spoke LOUD on salute and they said we have money for the "amateurs", more than ever! The consumer is speaking everyday with sales at GW dropping and new companies growing.
7. The GW model biz is not the only one and I KNOW by your comments you do not understand a huge part of this industry... free open games, shared games sharing different companies minis thats what this is all about but yes many can only see the HUGE plastic bag with one brand that supplies it all and think thats the only way.
8. The full picture is simple indeed and its just NOT ALL WANT TO BE GW AND FOLLOW GW BIZ MODEL. Different companies different targets.
9. I never called incompetent to GW ceos I said some of the amateurs you call are as and sometimes MORE competent ( big difference) But heck I can call them incompetent because under these CEO administration they provided half a year of fine cast.

Missed a ton of more comments but its late and 9 points is more than enough.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:40k is cheaper then my videogame habit as well. One of roommates spends a substantial amount on cigarettes and compares his hobby purchases to a carton of cigs.

Aside from their unhealthiness cigarettes are an especially expensive way to spend your money, especially in the UK where the tax is so high on them. You can buy two packs of magic cards for a pack of fags. If you smoke a pack a day like most smokers then that's like smoking an entire booster box every 3 weeks. Or you could buy a box of GW stuff every week, or kit from Tamiya etc. Anyone who can afford to smoke can't really complain about being short of money for anything IMO.

Not to mention the questionable choice...cigarettes are made from junk tobacco, soaked in flavorings and chemicals. Now, if one were a smoker of fine hand rolled premium cigars....


In all seriousness, I agree with you completely.

GW products are over priced for what they are. Their kits have less parts than others and cost twice if not three times as much.

ork fighter bommer http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Trumpeter-1-32-02206-Mikoyan-MIG-17PF-Fresco-F-5A-/180810049037?pt=UK_ToysGames_ModelKits_ModelKits_JN&hash=item2a191e660d.
Does this take three times fewer parts?

NAVARRO wrote:
So many convoluted ideas and statements in one post.... I will not quote post everything or I would be here all night I will reply by numbered topics ok?

1- Products below par? What par? Finecast?! Are you trying to say GW minis are the measure all should aspire?
2- There are plenty of different companies with different goals... again why should all aspire to follow GW biz model? Thats bidimensional theres lots of layers of options... one of the companies I mentioned I know the fella does it because he just likes it and guess what delivers constant products for years in a row...
3- Games 5 years support minimum? and GW does that? Are you kidding me? How many games did they forgot?
4- Why all should even aspire to have a game and not just produce minis period? Again different goals not everything is black and white.
5- You keep putting a negative twist to small companies with - garage attic comments...
6- From a consumer point of view? Or from YOUR point of view... consumers spoke LOUD on salute and they said we have money for the "amateurs", more than ever! The consumer is speaking everyday with sales at GW dropping and new companies growing.
7. The GW model biz is not the only one and I KNOW by your comments you do not understand a huge part of this industry... free open games, shared games sharing different companies minis thats what this is all about but yes many can only see the HUGE plastic bag with one brand that supplies it all and think thats the only way.
8. The full picture is simple indeed and its just NOT ALL WANT TO BE GW AND FOLLOW GW BIZ MODEL. Different companies different targets.
9. I never called incompetent to GW ceos I said some of the amateurs you call are as and sometimes MORE competent ( big difference) But heck I can call them incompetent because under these CEO administration they provided half a year of fine cast.

Missed a ton of more comments but its late and 9 points is more than enough.

As long as you keep taking my points out of context you will never grasp my point.

1. Products are below par when they cease to fulfill their target audiences needs. Now, I'm not talking about people who specifically seek out "indie" games, or quaint one offs, this whole thread is about the cost of GW products and this side debate is about people who are specifically looking to replace GW products with another game. So in respect to this segment of the market, most of the smaller companies will have a product that falls "below par" for their expectation.

2. See point 1. Yes different companies have different goals...but what are we talking about here? If we're talking about mass battles, with excellent quality kits, then who provides the basis and products to support such a thing other than GW? I don't say that their business model is the "best", but no other business model has delivered on such a scale. Until that happens we have no basis for comparison. While Mantic has designs on being "the competition" in this respect, can we really say that Mantic miniatures are at the same "quality" as GW's?

3. Sure GW has dropped games, but it has always supported it's core products. And how much of it's I.P. has been outsourced to 2nd tier companies who they let run and expand on those settings? FFG anyone? So we lost Inquisitor and got WH40K RPG instead....not the same, but some would say better.

4. Sure, that's a thing.....would be useless for someone looking for an alternative to the GW experience though.

5. No, you read it as negative. However, it would only be percieved as a barrier to entry, again, for someone looking to replace GW in their life. For everything else small producers (what-ever their location) may be a great thing.

6. Well, I would consider myself a consumer...so yeah, my point of view. Plus, if what you state is "true", why do we see so much anger and dismay at the yearly price rise (every year!!!).....people are not stupid, with all the alternatives offered at Salute, surely these products are the answer?......clearly not.

7. See point 2.

8. See point 2.

9. Fine Cast, as a product, was certainly mis-managed....no doubt about it. As a concept though, it wasn't such a bad thing. As many people pointed out, a lot of "small" boutique producers were selling their "high end" miniatures in resin (not metal) and while these small producers were doing well (pound for pound) it made sense for GW to attempt to ride that wave or shift in quality perception. Resin has been a premium material for a while in other industries, Garage kit model kits, Statues (resin type...polystone), etc etc...so why not in the miniatures industry. What GW were trying to do was produce resin miniatures in the same volumes and speed as they were manufacturing other miniatures materials, and maybe their manufacturing processes weren't up to speed to achieve this.....that doesn't make it a bad idea. Plus, you'll find the execution of such things would rarely fall to the CEO....he would have simply signed off the strategy....manufacturing specialists and marketing personnel would have done the rest. So where are these incompetent people? and since when did innovation (failed or otherwise) deserve the title of incompetence?

Man innovation in the same sentence as finecast is just... how wrong can you get?

Basicly all your coments surf around your point 1, lets see that

1- Thats a skewed way of describing "products below par" there are plenty of strong games atm not only in scifi, fantasy, historicals... you may have missed them but they have been suported for many years and seem to be growing quite nicelly... again the negativism of "indie" "one ofs" wtf? Since when does a small game from a small company IS not a good candidate to replace GW games? I mean at the end of the day its a game you spend time on it and if you spend time playing say errrr FOW rather than 40k thats litereally a replacement.
You seem to confuse game size company size = amount of enjoyement... thats false.

2. If your stuck to 30mm mas battles then theres not many... but thats not the only scale for ttgaming you know? But yes if you want gothic mass battlles in 30mm you should stick to GW no point going searching for alternatives if what you want is 40k copies.

3. Lol sure it does... how many armies from core games discontinued again?

5. what?

6. Not sure if I understand your point here either? So because people complain about GW prices and other games are growing the alternative games are not a option??? What?

9. ROFLMAO sorry I could not just contain it... no jab at you but maaaaannnn... a good concept, baddly executed, the blame is on the small caster fella and not on who made the decision and directed its implementation, INOVATIVE? heheheh No way.
Plasresins have been around for a long time, some produced in mass scales and IIRC some even in ttgaming kraken game invested tons of money on those and never got the money back with sales but I can garanteee that 7 or 8 years ago those plas resins were SHARP and bubbly free...
Do not be fooled this has been no inovation or revolution it only has been a cut/save money stunt & drop quality raise prices stunt from the get go not a romantic innovation in quality material for the fans not somethng any geek wargammer worth something should reward or admire.

Delephont wrote:3. Sure GW has dropped games, but it has always supported it's core products. And how much of it's I.P. has been outsourced to 2nd tier companies who they let run and expand on those settings? FFG anyone? So we lost Inquisitor and got WH40K RPG instead....not the same, but some would say better.

They don't outsource things people really want though. Bloodbowl card game, and RPGs, things they definitely won't touch themselves. But what of the actual Bloodbowl game itself? Or of the many other unsupported games with many fans? They sit on these. My suspicion is that they don't immediately make enough money for GW bosses to bother supporting properly, but they don't want anyone else using them because given proper dedication and development they could be successful and take money away from their main products. That's why the only things they have released in the last decade that are not of their core games have been extremely short term releases and ignored once the boxes clear the shelves, such as Dreadfleet. Even Space Hulk was treated this way, yet when I was young that was a big game being supported in every issue of White Dwarf alongside 40K and Fantasy. But also there were things like Epic given more equal treatment in the magazine too.

Howard A Treesong wrote:My suspicion is that they don't immediately make enough money for GW bosses to bother supporting properly, but they don't want anyone else using them because given proper dedication and development they could be successful and take money away from their main products.

So your suspicion is they are running a business and looking at good risk/reward analysis.

It's almost like they're running a publicly owned company.

How dare they.

-Loki- wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:My suspicion is that they don't immediately make enough money for GW bosses to bother supporting properly, but they don't want anyone else using them because given proper dedication and development they could be successful and take money away from their main products.

So your suspicion is they are running a business and looking at good risk/reward analysis.

It's almost like they're running a publicly owned company.

How dare they.

If that was true then Deadfleet would never have been made.

Oh GW, how silly can you get!

I agree
I belive the corperate managment didnt understand or have the ability to explain, how GW worked so well when the game developers were left in charge of game development.

When GW developed a wide range of games , suitable for a wide range of gamers, 1987 to 1998.
GW doubled turn over every 3 years.(Thier co-operation with MB games on Heroquest and Space crusade,opend up media advertising in the same way LotR licence did.)

The boxed games were exellent gateway games and eased entry into GW games.
The wide range of games from detailed skirmish to huge scale battle game like Epic.
Allowed gamers to try somthing different without leaving GW.
So the wide variety of great games that were properly supported provided recruitiment AND retension for GW plc.

The expansion of B&M stores at this time , was to keep up with the increased interests driven by the great games.

I guess unfortunatley some bean counter somewhere got thier wires crossed, and thought the chain of B&M stores could grow the insulated market on thier own.

And the fact most new customers to the B&M stores were children..
Seemed to allow the misnoma that selling toy soldiers to children was more profitable than providing great games for gamers.

Unfortunatley since MR Kirby(Captain Concordia.) made the annoucment '..we are in the buisness of selling toy soldiers to children..'
GW plc has lost sales volumes ever since.

The power of the SG /boxed games is underestimated by the corperate managers and at the same time seen as a threat to the 'inferior rule sets' of 40k and WHFB.

I belive Blood Bowl to be the best game GW produced ever.As I have been playing and enjoying it for over 15 years!

Its rather tragic that 40k games seem to be more 40k like when I use greneric scifi rules than GW own 40k rules.(This is a bit subjective I know.)

NAVARRO wrote:Man innovation in the same sentence as finecast is just... how wrong can you get?

Basicly all your coments surf around your point 1, lets see that

1- Thats a skewed way of describing "products below par" there are plenty of strong games atm not only in scifi, fantasy, historicals... you may have missed them but they have been suported for many years and seem to be growing quite nicelly... again the negativism of "indie" "one ofs" wtf? Since when does a small game from a small company IS not a good candidate to replace GW games? I mean at the end of the day its a game you spend time on it and if you spend time playing say errrr FOW rather than 40k thats litereally a replacement.
You seem to confuse game size company size = amount of enjoyement... thats false.

2. If your stuck to 30mm mas battles then theres not many... but thats not the only scale for ttgaming you know? But yes if you want gothic mass battlles in 30mm you should stick to GW no point going searching for alternatives if what you want is 40k copies.

3. Lol sure it does... how many armies from core games discontinued again?

5. what?

6. Not sure if I understand your point here either? So because people complain about GW prices and other games are growing the alternative games are not a option??? What?

9. ROFLMAO sorry I could not just contain it... no jab at you but maaaaannnn... a good concept, baddly executed, the blame is on the small caster fella and not on who made the decision and directed its implementation, INOVATIVE? heheheh No way.
Plasresins have been around for a long time, some produced in mass scales and IIRC some even in ttgaming kraken game invested tons of money on those and never got the money back with sales but I can garanteee that 7 or 8 years ago those plas resins were SHARP and bubbly free...
Do not be fooled this has been no inovation or revolution it only has been a cut/save money stunt & drop quality raise prices stunt from the get go not a romantic innovation in quality material for the fans not somethng any geek wargammer worth something should reward or admire.

Dude, seriously, all....ALL of your points just seem like trolling to me, needlessly inciting argument for the sake of it.....perhaps you're bored, so I'll leave it at that.

I left GW behind because I didn't want to be involved with that whole thing anymore, but at the same time I don't bear them or their products any malice, because I really have left it behind.....you seem so bitter towards GW it's sad...

Anyway, I'll leave you to continue your crusade against GW

Treesong, the 'magazine' as you so quaintly put it has become nothing more than a monthly catalogue of what's new. That's it. All other content has been removed beyond 'Ohh, here's what's new and here's how the in-house crew think it works!"

Finecast is the worst thing GW has ever done BAR NONE. Whether it was a good idea or not, whether it was innovative or not, the product that hit the shelves was (and still is) 100% FAIL. Every time I go to my FLGS and look at Finecast, I see nothing but flawed casts. Bubbles, missing detail, even whole areas of the mini gone. And for this we are supposed to pay a premium price? NO! If they want to charge that much, they need to INSPECT THE BLOODY THINGS and only send out the ones that are good.

Of course, this means that over half their production (and maybe as high as three-quarters, judging by what my FLGS has gotten) would be lost, and I doubt GW could withstand that sort of expense.

The alternative... well, since I'm going to have to - at a MINIMUM - fill those bubbles, and more often than not resculpt details - if not whole chunks of the mini - then 'Finecast' should be DIRT CHEAP. Because DIRT is about all they are worth. In many ways the Reaper body frames that allow you to sculpt your own details are a much better deal; you EXPECT to do extensive work on those.

But this is part of GW's corporate mindset - all for profit and the needs of the long-term customer. Rules are poorly written and inconsistent. Codexes are rarely properly balanced against each other. Regualr FAQs only recently became a regular thing... and even THOSE are inconsistend and unbalanced. Prices for minis are high, while quality is average - other manufacturers do a MUCH better job of delivering quality for price. The ONE AND ONLY thing GW has going for it is a game that lots of people play. And yet, they've made it clear that the people who currently play ARE NOT THEIR TARGET CUSTOMER. They have aimed their business model at a continuous flow of new customers who don't play the game.

And sooner or later the lack of established players - who have moved on to other things due to years of mistreatment by GW - will kill the company... unless someone over there realizes that the corporate mindset is literally killing ongoing interest in Warhammer.

Khornate25 wrote:IMO, here's how it goes :

Warmahordes can be expensive, depending of the point level you play, and there are really good deals and buying opportunities out there. Hell, I've made my 50 pts really quickly and cheaply, I didn't even felt I've spent money. The rules are tactically balanced, and the game difficulty is moderate (except when playing Cryx, which is kinda difficult and expensive because of the banes)

W40k a little more expensive than Warmahordes, models aren't as finely sculpted and detailed, there aren't any real deal out there to reduce the cost, even when it's second hand. Plus, making an army ain't quick. To pass from one level of play to another (ex : 700 to 1000 pts) you have to buy numerous packs (ex : a soldier box, a vehicule and a tank). There's no quick way and no quick buying. It's slow and it's expensive. The game is absolutly not balanced, and the whole point of 6th ed should be to correct that by nerfing down some armies and upgrading others.

WHFB is as expensive, but there are really GOOD deals out there on te web. With 90$, I can make a 1000 pts list. And if I want to boost to 1500, I only have to add another 30-50 $ (I made list to see it). I know most people play 2000-2500 games, but who cares ? 1000 and 1500 pts are just as fine. Plus, let's face it, you won't spend 50% of your budget on transports that have crappy weapons. Plus, let's also face it, WHFB produce a far more sophisticated line of models than W40k (except maybe eldar and dark eldar, and even then :S). The game as an element of randomness, but not to the point of making player strategy irrevelant. The recent armies of 8th ed are more balanced than the those of the previous edition, and 40k should follow this example

Excuse me? 40K models less detailed than Warmahordes models? Most Warmahordes models are basically large amounts of flat surfaces and some of the things look ridiculous. Also, some of it is quite clearly ripped off from Warhammer. Skorne, for example, with it's characters looking suspiciously like Khorne daemons.

Squigsquasher wrote:
Excuse me? 40K models less detailed than Warmahordes models? Most Warmahordes models are basically large amounts of flat surfaces and some of the things look ridiculous. Also, some of it is quite clearly ripped off from Warhammer. Skorne, for example, with it's characters looking suspiciously like Khorne daemons.

Pictures of these blatant rip-offs please? Because apart from both being painted red and brass, there really is absolutely nothing similar in the design of Skorne and Khorne (well, I guess the names sound alike so PP must have ripped of GW right there!)...

I normally should be dancing on GW's bloody body after the beating it is taking in this thread.

Sadly, today, I'm only pining for the old school GW that I came into 40K with. Saddest of all is that ALL of the old characters that made 40K what it was- FUN, are all involved with other projects that are taking up the standard and moving forward.

WHO is left at GW, you know... designing games, and creating products/ Games that actual gamers want to play?

as to the Warmahordes rip off debate- Warmachine ripped off Mike McVey from GW.

Stole him in a potato sack in the middle of the night, and chained him to a table with a cattleprod, sticking him until he came up with what you have in those first golden sets.

GW stole the Space Marines from PP.

Delephont wrote:

NAVARRO wrote:Man innovation in the same sentence as finecast is just... how wrong can you get?

Basically all your comments surf around your point 1, lets see that

1- Thats a skewed way of describing "products below par" there are plenty of strong games atm not only in scifi, fantasy, historicals... you may have missed them but they have been supported for many years and seem to be growing quite nicely... again the negativism of "indie" "one ofs" wtf? Since when does a small game from a small company IS not a good candidate to replace GW games? I mean at the end of the day its a game you spend time on it and if you spend time playing say errrr FOW rather than 40k thats litereally a replacement.
You seem to confuse game size company size = amount of enjoyement... thats false.

2. If your stuck to 30mm mas battles then theres not many... but thats not the only scale for ttgaming you know? But yes if you want gothic mass battlles in 30mm you should stick to GW no point going searching for alternatives if what you want is 40k copies.

3. Lol sure it does... how many armies from core games discontinued again?

5. what?

6. Not sure if I understand your point here either? So because people complain about GW prices and other games are growing the alternative games are not a option??? What?

9. ROFLMAO sorry I could not just contain it... no jab at you but maaaaannnn... a good concept, baddly executed, the blame is on the small caster fella and not on who made the decision and directed its implementation, INOVATIVE? heheheh No way.
Plasresins have been around for a long time, some produced in mass scales and IIRC some even in ttgaming kraken game invested tons of money on those and never got the money back with sales but I can garanteee that 7 or 8 years ago those plas resins were SHARP and bubbly free...
Do not be fooled this has been no inovation or revolution it only has been a cut/save money stunt & drop quality raise prices stunt from the get go not a romantic innovation in quality material for the fans not somethng any geek wargammer worth something should reward or admire.

Dude, seriously, all....ALL of your points just seem like trolling to me, needlessly inciting argument for the sake of it.....perhaps you're bored, so I'll leave it at that.

I left GW behind because I didn't want to be involved with that whole thing anymore, but at the same time I don't bear them or their products any malice, because I really have left it behind.....you seem so bitter towards GW it's sad...

Anyway, I'll leave you to continue your crusade against GW

Ahhh ok so this is how you debate things... Calling in troll and hater card... now I understand you ... dude.
For you know I love GW, as much as I love any other company that makes the toys that I play... but like I said that does not clowd my opinion.
Its simples, If they do good things I praise and Buy if they do finecasted things I will not buy and critique... If thats a crusade for you then you know jack shat about crusades

But the debate you are running away is not GW or HATERZZZZ or other silly immature things it was about you labelling the biggest part of this industry as incompetent, Johnny come late indies with subpar products yaddayadda bunch of misconceptions yadayada and not only you have not addressed the arguments on the table but you continuously spew some bizarre notions of grandeur.

Mercs you seem to attack so much, did a LOT in 3.5 years thats not the work of amateurs even if they have a life outside MERCs miniatures... Infinity you seem to like releases minis for every faction with halfharsed quality right? every month not good enough? etc... and I could go on and on and on how you are totally clueless when you label this industry as not GW= Incompetent.

Small games and small companies is the blood in this industry wich is.... small!

I only take my hat to you sir when you try to twist a arm off the socket and do some crazy flips to cast fine cast as a good idea That was fun.

Don't worry I will not reply to you more concerning this you disappointed me way to much already.

For all folks reading I'm not affiliated with mercs or any other company but don't take the word of Delephont regarding them or other alternatives make your own judgement for yourselves, check the minis and games out there and see if its half harsed bad products... me I never had so much fun but nothing beats my space hulk.

NAVARRO wrote:
Ahhh ok so this is how you debate things... Calling in troll and hater card... now I understand you ... dude.
For you know I love GW, as much as I love any other company that makes the toys that I play... but like I said that does not clowd my opinion.
Its simples, If they do good things I praise and Buy if they do finecasted things I will not buy and critique... If thats a crusade for you then you know jack shat about crusades

But the debate you are running away is not GW or HATERZZZZ or other silly immature things it was about you labelling the biggest part of this industry as incompetent, Johnny come late indies with subpar products yaddayadda bunch of misconceptions yadayada and not only you have not addressed the arguments on the table but you continuously spew some bizarre notions of grandeur.

Mercs you seem to attack so much, did a LOT in 3.5 years thats not the work of amateurs even if they have a life outside MERCs miniatures... Infinity you seem to like releases minis for every faction with halfharsed quality right? every month not good enough? etc... and I could go on and on and on how you are totally clueless when you label this industry as not GW= Incompetent.

Small games and small companies is the blood in this industry wich is.... small!

I only take my hat to you sir when you try to twist a arm off the socket and do some crazy flips to cast fine cast as a good idea That was fun.

Don't worry I will not reply to you more concerning this you disappointed me way to much already.

For all folks reading I'm not affiliated with mercs or any other company but don't take the word of Delephont regarding them or other alternatives make your own judgement for yourselves, check the minis and games out there and see if its half harsed bad products... me I never had so much fun but nothing beats my space hulk.

Seriously, look at what you're typing......is that really your idea of "informed" debate? A debate is where both sides bring differing ideas to the table, but with an open mind to learn either something new, or to understand a different perspective.

You've picked up on one thing I wrote (Johnny come lately, and amateur) and you go at it like a dog with a bone! Even after I go to great length to elaborate on my point. Now I'm not saying that just because I've gone into detail about my opinion that you should suddenly agree. However, I do expect you to cease misrepresenting that point in order to elicit an argument. Amateur = non professional, clearly I was wrong to use that term, as all of those companies are professional (yes, even the ones doing it part time) but I stand by my statement of Johnny come lately, because it simply means "new"......it's not a negative, at least it wasn't intended to be negative.

MERCS, Infinity, Malifaux, DUST, etc etc are good products in their own right, but we're not talking about the products in their own right. We're discussing those products as a direct replacement for WH40K.......can't you understand that simple point?!?!? During last years price rises and anti GW sentiment, people went looking for alternatives for their GW fix, and many (well, those vocal about it) came to the conclusion that none of those products would fit the bill.

Your disappointed matters very little to me, to be honest, especially when you conduct your "debates" in the way you do.

Squigsquasher wrote:

Khornate25 wrote:IMO, here's how it goes :

Warmahordes can be expensive, depending of the point level you play, and there are really good deals and buying opportunities out there. Hell, I've made my 50 pts really quickly and cheaply, I didn't even felt I've spent money. The rules are tactically balanced, and the game difficulty is moderate (except when playing Cryx, which is kinda difficult and expensive because of the banes)

W40k a little more expensive than Warmahordes, models aren't as finely sculpted and detailed, there aren't any real deal out there to reduce the cost, even when it's second hand. Plus, making an army ain't quick. To pass from one level of play to another (ex : 700 to 1000 pts) you have to buy numerous packs (ex : a soldier box, a vehicule and a tank). There's no quick way and no quick buying. It's slow and it's expensive. The game is absolutly not balanced, and the whole point of 6th ed should be to correct that by nerfing down some armies and upgrading others.

WHFB is as expensive, but there are really GOOD deals out there on te web. With 90$, I can make a 1000 pts list. And if I want to boost to 1500, I only have to add another 30-50 $ (I made list to see it). I know most people play 2000-2500 games, but who cares ? 1000 and 1500 pts are just as fine. Plus, let's face it, you won't spend 50% of your budget on transports that have crappy weapons. Plus, let's also face it, WHFB produce a far more sophisticated line of models than W40k (except maybe eldar and dark eldar, and even then :S). The game as an element of randomness, but not to the point of making player strategy irrevelant. The recent armies of 8th ed are more balanced than the those of the previous edition, and 40k should follow this example

Excuse me? 40K models less detailed than Warmahordes models? Most Warmahordes models are basically large amounts of flat surfaces and some of the things look ridiculous. Also, some of it is quite clearly ripped off from Warhammer. Skorne, for example, with it's characters looking suspiciously like Khorne daemons.

Flat surfaces eh?




Wow, you're right! I just confused myself looking at the two!

I am a football fan. I have a season ticket and travel to every away game I can attend, which adds up over the season I'm sure anybody else who travels the country following their team will agree.

I still see this as the cheaper of my two hobbies (40k being the other). Football is a money machine but I've still managed to get a ten year price freeze on my season ticket. That means it won't increase for the next ten years guaranteed.

Hobbies may be expensive, but not all hobbies are as expensive as wargaming and this is driven by the greed of the companies not the hobby itself.

GW have a great thing going as many of you have suggested and I agree with you . i.e.

- Rich story, background and supplements.
- Years of rules development.
- Good quality minis (maybe not "finest" lewl, but quite good).
- Huge variety of minis.
- Massive exposure and popularity.

Now I feel the need for GW within the industry, they grow our hobby with their brick and mortar stores, video games and books. Most youngsters get their first taste of painting and modelling in or from a GW store and grow from there, sometimes expanding into other game systems as they progress. Without GW I doubt many of these other companies would have even been heard of, thought of or known about.

I'm not singing the praises of GW here though, just pointing out the importance of them as a company within the wargaming/miniatures market. What I don't see the sense in is that GW has the complete package as it stands, the only thing pushing their customers away is the pricing. Lets face it if GW didn't charge a premium for their miniatures 95% (maybe more) of hobbyists wouldn't have to look outside of GW and wouldn't even know these other game systems existed.

I've been in the hobby for about 15 years and for 10 of them I didn't know about games outside of the GW system, its only been since they started price gouging that I've started looking outside "the sphere" should we say. It's funny that in these last 3-5 years as GW's prices rapidly rise their competitors have started making leaps and bounds forward within the industry. It's just a strange situation how these small entities need the corporate giant to attract in the gamers then price them straight out the door and into one of these alternate games.

So what I'm trying to say really is that it's a double edged sword for these up and coming companies, they would love to grow and outdo their major competitor, but in doing so they would be effectively killing off their main source of customers. These small guys simply won't get the exposure they need to be successful. If we ever see the downfall of GW and the closing of their brick and mortar chain I feel it will be a dark day for tabletop gamers and fledgling miniature companies alike.

It just makes me sad, as a hobbyist, to see GW makes its way towards slow corporate suicide.

@ vossyvo

I agree with your assessment of GW (the positive aspects) but I disagree that they are committing coporate suicide.

Perhaps through deisgn or accident, GW are placing their product in the premium zone within the market. I'm not going to debate how well they are doing this from an asthetic or quality perspective, it's pointless, I'm only focusing on the price.

Looking at that strategy of product placement, we can see this performed by many companies in nearly every industry, from D.I.Y Tools, to mountainbikes, to cars, the list is endless.

Now comes the interesting part. When you look at all of those premium companies, you look at their prices, but in reality, do you actually get a better product....again, you culd debate that point forever.....but in terms of "purpose", surely one car is like another, or one garden rake is as good as another.....again, leaving the quality debate out for this.

People seem to be reacting badly to GW's decision to place it's product further up the premium ladder, I guess because essentially they don't feel that GW is worthy oof premium status.

Perhaps this is why GW is (it seems) actively trying to "shed" it's veteran player base.....these are the guys who think GW should be "down" there with the rest, while a new consumer, fully indoctrinated will "grow up" seeing GW as a premium product which is worthy of price paid.

Hi Delphont.
I dont tthink anyone disagrees that GW plc are raising prices well above inflation year on year.
And have effectivley doubled prices over inflation over the last 7 years.

Now if the customer base had remained the same and GW was turning over about £300m then we could bow to thier buisness acumen.

But as they are loosing customers faster than the price rises can make up for.I tend to think the turn over will continue to fall at ever increasing rate, despite the massive price hikes to come.

If a company want to promote its products a 'premium'. then thats fine.
As most companies that make premium products are miles better than the standard product.Better quality materials and better finish and presentation.

GW s product are not twice as good as they were 7 years ago.And they certainly arent 20% better than last week!Are they?

If they are , I personaly can not see it....

I agree! I probably shouldn't have put that last line. Should have read more like; watching GW slowly ruin the future wargaming community. GW will just have a smaller more lucrative player base the way things are going.

The only concerning part to me is that very very few of these new consumers would know that any other game system exist until dabbling in Warhammer and hearing about these other systems through the gaming community as there is a lack of exposure to these alternate games. If the entry level product is so expensive many potential hobbyists may be lost at that point.


Anyway it's going be a interesting few years for us.

If you assume thet most GW customers are 11 to 25 year olds, from middle income families.
And they all have aacess to the internet , Which is very likley.

The visit to the GW stores, shock at the prices , and a look on the net for something less expemcive...
And GW plc sales volumes continue to fall faster and faster.....