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CainTheHunter wrote:Btw, You can get Yourself a decent Flames of War 2000 points army for less than 50-60 pounds, so it is not really that expensive as 40K or WarmaHordes (the latter, I've heard is darn expensive).

Not really. You can get A decent FOW army, but not necessarily the one you want to play.)

The average FOW army is about 300.00 US, this coming from comparing prices of the armies about 50 of my customers have put together, and statements from Battlefront employees. You can easily spend 500-600 on an FOW army. Greatly depends on the list, and especially training level. Confident trained lists take about 60% more models than a Fearless Veteran list.

Ovion wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

In my experience, MTG is really cheap. Certainly cheaper than Yugioh or Pokemon TCG by a long shot. And while TCGs aren't that cheap, Warhammer is more expensive.
But even then, for the £300-500 it'd take me to make a basic army from the ground up to 1500-2000pts, I would have a good few thousand cards to play with in any given system.

My Dark Eldar coven however, has been purely converted from the ground up, using other models, as even a 2000pt Coven bought using the actual models compared to what I have would be utterly extortionate, as it is, it's still cost a good £200+.
To buy 8 Haems, 12 Grotesques, 30 Wracks and 3 Talos would be roughly £450 for those, add in the 5 raiders, 3 venoms and razorwing and you're looking at aout £700 for 2000pts. And we're just getting ANOTHER price rise, so that'll likely become £800-900 for a 'proper' coven.

Yes, certain hobbies are more expensive, but even then, you have a competitive market, you can shop around and find the best prices / best quality, and if 1 company dicks you around, you don't use them - you have a choice.

Games Workshops prices are high, and are getting worse, especially for the 'flavourful' lists. My original DE I put together a few thousand points for what.. £150-200. You really were able to play the game with pocket money. Sure you had the older vets, with more disposable income that could get several armies / more variety, but as a child, I could take my money and by something every month, and it didn't take long to get an army.

Now, as an adult, I have to save a significant amount each week, to do basicly the same damn thing - there's no way I could have got into the game on pocket money at these prices, and frankly, I see a lot of kids come in store, their parents go 'what's this, what do I need' then they pretty much go 'holycrap that's expensive', decide against it.

Magic is only cheap if you don't care about being competitive and don't play type II. If you want to be competitive, it'll cost you a few hundred bucks. For a deck. What is a deck? A pile of paper. If you take it in the pool, you lost it. I know somebody who had his mom do his laundry and she washed his Nevernyl's Discs, Lotus Vale, and a few other expensive cards. He lost $100 in 2 minutes. Oops. You wash my warhammer models. Knock yourself out. Type II? You have to buy new cards every few months to keep a deck that is legal. Warhammer models are legal at all times-your RT models are just as legal as your 5th edition marines. I'm not a GW apologist, but I can still afford the HHHobby, I still purchase and make large purchases, and I'm joining the WarmaHordes team-summer sale, you rock. It all comes down to how much you are willing to spend, and how you enjoy your hobbies. You like Marines? Get a couple sets of AoBR, a tech marine, a few rhinos and some bitz to customize Sternguard-you suddenly have an 1850 army for a hundred bucks-and that's with maybe a 25% discount. Cheaper than any competitive Magic deck.

timetowaste85 wrote:

Ovion wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

In my experience, MTG is really cheap. Certainly cheaper than Yugioh or Pokemon TCG by a long shot. And while TCGs aren't that cheap, Warhammer is more expensive.
But even then, for the £300-500 it'd take me to make a basic army from the ground up to 1500-2000pts, I would have a good few thousand cards to play with in any given system.

My Dark Eldar coven however, has been purely converted from the ground up, using other models, as even a 2000pt Coven bought using the actual models compared to what I have would be utterly extortionate, as it is, it's still cost a good £200+.
To buy 8 Haems, 12 Grotesques, 30 Wracks and 3 Talos would be roughly £450 for those, add in the 5 raiders, 3 venoms and razorwing and you're looking at aout £700 for 2000pts. And we're just getting ANOTHER price rise, so that'll likely become £800-900 for a 'proper' coven.

Yes, certain hobbies are more expensive, but even then, you have a competitive market, you can shop around and find the best prices / best quality, and if 1 company dicks you around, you don't use them - you have a choice.

Games Workshops prices are high, and are getting worse, especially for the 'flavourful' lists. My original DE I put together a few thousand points for what.. £150-200. You really were able to play the game with pocket money. Sure you had the older vets, with more disposable income that could get several armies / more variety, but as a child, I could take my money and by something every month, and it didn't take long to get an army.

Now, as an adult, I have to save a significant amount each week, to do basicly the same damn thing - there's no way I could have got into the game on pocket money at these prices, and frankly, I see a lot of kids come in store, their parents go 'what's this, what do I need' then they pretty much go 'holycrap that's expensive', decide against it.

Magic is only cheap if you don't care about being competitive and don't play type II. If you want to be competitive, it'll cost you a few hundred bucks. For a deck. What is a deck? A pile of paper. If you take it in the pool, you lost it. I know somebody who had his mom do his laundry and she washed his Nevernyl's Discs, Lotus Vale, and a few other expensive cards. He lost $100 in 2 minutes. Oops. You wash my warhammer models. Knock yourself out. Type II? You have to buy new cards every few months to keep a deck that is legal. Warhammer models are legal at all times-your RT models are just as legal as your 5th edition marines. I'm not a GW apologist, but I can still afford the HHHobby, I still purchase and make large purchases, and I'm joining the WarmaHordes team-summer sale, you rock. It all comes down to how much you are willing to spend, and how you enjoy your hobbies. You like Marines? Get a couple sets of AoBR, a tech marine, a few rhinos and some bitz to customize Sternguard-you suddenly have an 1850 army for a hundred bucks-and that's with maybe a 25% discount. Cheaper than any competitive Magic deck.

Winning Top 8 in 3 major M:tG tournaments with decks costing less than $22 says otherwise... All in Type 2. granted, this was years before but it still proves that you don't strictly need to spend a fortune to have a competitive deck.

http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=5863
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/61
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/21
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/64
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/124

I even entered Nationals with a budget deck, but sadly I suck at draft.

One thing you can also do with magic is card rotation: if you have enough experience buy the cards you think would be staple cards while the metagame hasn't recognized them and they're still cheap, then after hoarding sell them like crazy. I bought more than a dozen Cloudthreshers for $1 each, then sold them two months after for at least $15. It'll take most of your time, though, since you will need to interact with the player base a lot and trade with them.

Sell your competitive cards on the sweet spot where they would still be used in major tournaments but right before they phase out. Predict the new hot cards, and buy them while they're still cheap. Trade those cards with the ones you will need in order to stay competitive. Having a team also helps, where you can share your cardpool with each other (and you have practice partners to boot).

Magic is only more expensive than wargaming if you don't play it smart.




Additionally, a person owning expensive cards and putting them on their jeans or whatever is an idiot. They're expensive: put them in protective sleeves inside your binders. Especially with Type 1 collectibles, why aren't you putting them on those thick card cases? It's like complaining that your paintjob chipped off or your model broke because you didn't put them in protective foam and didn't put varnish on them while travelling, really.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Tigerone wrote:

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

100% the truth....

Although there are many wargames out there which are considerably cheaper to play than the GW games... which is kind of the complaint, rather than wargames are expensive in of themselves.

True, but rying to compare GW with the rest doesn't really help since they all operate their buinesses differently. GW has it's own stores and thus own overheads. I would say their overheads are even larger than FLGS. GW provide the service of being able to play in the shop, with other people. The store I go to every Saturday holds campaigns on that day and it takes a member of staff to co-ordinate it all, so thats more on the overheads. Little things like this just add it all up. Now I'm not saying that GW isn't ripping people off but what I am saying is it's a bit hard to quantify considering the differences in place.

DarthOvious wrote:
True, but rying to compare GW with the rest doesn't really help since they all operate their buinesses differently. GW has it's own stores and thus own overheads. I would say their overheads are even larger than FLGS. GW provide the service of being able to play in the shop, with other people. The store I go to every Saturday holds campaigns on that day and it takes a member of staff to co-ordinate it all, so thats more on the overheads. Little things like this just add it all up. Now I'm not saying that GW isn't ripping people off but what I am saying is it's a bit hard to quantify considering the differences in place.

GW does have a lot of stores and they have had them for a long time - the cost of running a physical store hasn't increased that much, especially the small retail units that most stores are based in.

And when your company is paying out 16m to sharholders in a year- money the company just says it is 'not using nor has any use for', you have to wonder...

Even 100' for a couple of packing monkeys to QC their finecast runs would have saved them a lot of money (not to mention good will). Hell, they could hire on more staff in their stores so they don't just have 1 guy in them most of the time, maybe fund some events and so on

Stores can be a drain on resources, but when you give away that much money you are 'not using' what does that say?

mikhaila wrote:

CainTheHunter wrote:Btw, You can get Yourself a decent Flames of War 2000 points army for less than 50-60 pounds, so it is not really that expensive as 40K or WarmaHordes (the latter, I've heard is darn expensive).

Not really. You can get A decent FOW army, but not necessarily the one you want to play.)

The average FOW army is about 300.00 US, this coming from comparing prices of the armies about 50 of my customers have put together, and statements from Battlefront employees. You can easily spend 500-600 on an FOW army. Greatly depends on the list, and especially training level. Confident trained lists take about 60% more models than a Fearless Veteran list.

Only if You are dead-set on sticking with BF models. The Plastic Soldier Company, Wargames Factory and numerous others offer cheaper minis, so You can easily get a basic Tank Company or even Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Force (with ~ 11-15 halfttracks which are arguably the most expensive part there) for 50-60 pounds.

As a former somewhat competitive MTG player I can attest that it is infact much more expensive than 40K. And for the most part you get a fraction of a return out of it. With the constant barrage of new sets and rules for Standard tournament play you can expect to shell out hundreds of dollars every couple months. I ahve sold a vast amount of my MTG collection in favor of buying 40K and paying bills. I hold a lot more value in my painted models than I ever have for a Mox. At one time I had a Black Lotus. I sold it and paid off my car. I dont ever really plan to sell my 40K armies. I look at them as works of art with a lot of time and effort put into each piece. IT has a larger up front investment, but in truth it is not that expensive. In my short time playing this game I have seen this come up 3 times now. They charge what the market will bear. For everyone that refuses to buy their stuff there are 3 more to take his or her place. I will continue to play 40K price hike or not.

it'll be a sad day when i lose interest in wargaming, i have spent countless amount of $$$ on the hobby in general, this non-sense of reducing material for material gain is insane buisness model, sure some of the diehard fans will stay but for overall growth in a booming industry GW isn't unique in the fact of being a major distributed product, FOW, WarmaHordes, Perry miniatures and a whole host to take the financial cream of the crop away from GW, maybe GW is in it's senile stage of development. (no offence intended) these game systems or miniatures suppliers are growing steadily and with every gamer that leaves wh40k/whfb etc means potentially another game sytem gains more support, even the ones whom stay onboard with 40k etc will continue to either support sales or will reduce overall spending. as duly noted no-1 forces you to buy something you love & enjoy but it's a sad thing to think about, especially the older veterans (who have spent even more than i have)

MTG is expensive if your addicted to playing CCG (a mate of mine spent over $8000 over a 12yrs on MTG, that said a pack of cards is cheaper than a box of IG, highelves etc, what you can buy for price of MTG deck in same price for some wh40k: independant character maybe), but it never appealed to me. if more support went into EPIC 40k i'd play that, instead of 40k, but alas it's not the case (hence why i have so much crap i don't need, but it helped pass the time/might come in handy if i considered selling it all)

What annoys me is that despite this supposed price increase today/tomorrow there has been nothing announced on their official web page.

Oh, NOT THIS THREAD AGAIN...

Sarpedon_702 wrote:As a former somewhat competitive MTG player I can attest that it is infact much more expensive than 40K. And for the most part you get a fraction of a return out of it. With the constant barrage of new sets and rules for Standard tournament play you can expect to shell out hundreds of dollars every couple months. I ahve sold a vast amount of my MTG collection in favor of buying 40K and paying bills. I hold a lot more value in my painted models than I ever have for a Mox. At one time I had a Black Lotus. I sold it and paid off my car. I dont ever really plan to sell my 40K armies. I look at them as works of art with a lot of time and effort put into each piece. IT has a larger up front investment, but in truth it is not that expensive. In my short time playing this game I have seen this come up 3 times now. They charge what the market will bear. For everyone that refuses to buy their stuff there are 3 more to take his or her place. I will continue to play 40K price hike or not.

I got in to MTG back in the early years...bought a bunch of packs, catalogued my cards...didn't like the game, and figuring it would be a fad like Pogs, threw them out.

Years later I found the catalog. Guess who trashed a Black Lotus?

I have a number of hobbies that I have wanted to take up or have dropped in favour of others and I for one cannot see why people are moaning at something like a hobby is expensive.

Of course it's expensive, it's a hobby. It's not a financial commitment or something that is life or death (although for some, I can see that it is life or death, which is pretty sad).

Here's an example...

A hobby of my past.
I took up MTG, played the tournament scene, got a few pro points, then gave up because the cost of the game got too pricey.

My current hobby.
Started back on 40K and I'm at the sweet spot where I have 2 armies that are pretty much where I want them to be. The lovely thing about GW, is that you can buy when you want to. You don't have to keep up with Tournament trends in order to win, there is always a way to pull a victory from your ass and there is no way in hell that you need a new army to be uber competitive. I also play Hordes and have a large Troll army, but don't have anywhere to play anymore.

Hobby I want to get into.
I have a passion for American Muscle Cars, particularly Camaros. I absolutely love them, ever since I was a small child. I love going to shows, talking shop with enthusiasts and looking at all the pretty cars. Having a Muscle Car in England is not the wisest idea. Our fuel costs are far higher than most other countries, insurance costs and road tax on Muscle Cars is just obscene, but to me, I don't mind any of this, because it's something I am very passionate about.
My favorite two Camaros are the 1976 and the 2010 (Yes, the ones from Transformers).
To run a 1976, you have to be aware that this thing is going to cost a ton of money to keep running, more so than most modern cars and not just because of the fuel. Parts are hard to come by and the wear and tear is quite horrific on a car that is nearly 40 years old. You also need some mechanical savvy or a good friend who knows cars.
The 2010, as a new car is cheaper to run, but very expensive at first. I cheapest 2010 I've found is £18,000 for a 3.6, basic Camaro. A 1976 can go for as little as £2000, but you'd need to rebuild some of it.

My point is, hobbies are for what we do in our spare time and is what we have expendable cash for. We shouldn't let them rule our lives or our wallets, which is what I see some people doing and TBH, it's pretty sad.

mikhaila wrote:

CainTheHunter wrote:Btw, You can get Yourself a decent Flames of War 2000 points army for less than 50-60 pounds, so it is not really that expensive as 40K or WarmaHordes (the latter, I've heard is darn expensive).

Not really. You can get A decent FOW army, but not necessarily the one you want to play.)

The average FOW army is about 300.00 US, this coming from comparing prices of the armies about 50 of my customers have put together, and statements from Battlefront employees. You can easily spend 500-600 on an FOW army. Greatly depends on the list, and especially training level. Confident trained lists take about 60% more models than a Fearless Veteran list.

That would be correct if you were only buying Battlefront miniatures. Old Glory miniatures can easily be found for 40% off on the internet and that isn't even dealing with Zvezda (tanks for $3.50) or the Plastic Soldier Company which is pretty cheap too. I just bought ten german half tracks for $35.00 the other day. That is a third the cost of what it would take me to do the same thing by going with BF directly. The beauty of historicals is that you don't need to stick with one specific company.

Squigsquasher wrote:Oh, NOT THIS THREAD AGAIN...

Right. How many times do we really need the Magic versus 40K discussion?

This subject is one of the most tiring things to read on the internet. One of the more amusing aspects is reading the same people saying the same thing they did after last years price increase came along.

Even better is those that complain about the cost but in the same sentence they say they don't play the game and haven't for years.

I also must back up for argument that wargaming is not an expensive hobby. Because it's not.
Lets look at two of my other hobbies.

1) Down hill mountain biking.
Bike £1200.00 For a below average hard tail bike with front suspension. I really want to upgrade to a full suspension bike but I don't have £3000 to get one half decent. Then I need to actually get the the DH trails. So that's a car, bike rack & petrol just to be able to use the bike I've coughed up for.
Then to top it off parts fail, maintenance costs me anything between £20 and £350 depending on what part breaks, and when your doing full DH even the best parts fail eventually. Due to the cost of the hobby I only get to go riding once maybe twice a month.

My other big interest is
2) DJing. Now this has eaten my money for years.
Decks, £450 each (you need two) DJ mixer £700, CDJ's £680 each (Again you need two) Speakers, amp and all the cables you need, add another £400/500 on that.
That's just to be able to play the music not the music it's self.
Over ten years I've spent well over £10,000 on vinyl and now half my flat is taken up with the stuff, storage is a real issue. Also it used to be £4.50 a Plate, Now it's £7.50/£8

In comparison Wargaming is cheap, Very Cheap. (my cheapest hobby by a long way!)

Now don't get me wrong this does not mean I'm happy about GW putting prices up, some models I think are very expensive for what you get, But the hobby as a whole is not.

Finally I would like to make a point on the GW v PP price argument. I'm currently building a Hordes army and in comparison the models are expensive, yes you need less but to me the appeal of Warhammer is having a ton of mins to do battle with not a mear handful. Model on Model they are 6 and half a dozen.

DoctorZombie wrote: GW has consistenly told us that hobbies are expensive, and that we just need to suck up the price increases.

Care to offer any direct quotes?

Have they ever actually told people to "suck it up", or is that just part of what we imagine in our minds when we picture them in a boardroom twirling their curly mustaches and laughing maniacly as they set piles of money on fire?

I swear I saw this exact topic...last year

CT GAMER wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote: GW has consistenly told us that hobbies are expensive, and that we just need to suck up the price increases.

Care to offer any direct quotes?

Have they ever actually told people to "suck it up", or is that just part of what we imagine in our minds when we picture them in a boardroom twirling their curly mustaches and laughing maniacly as they set piles of money on fire?

I must have already use this video a long time before but its a classic

deejaybainbridge wrote:This subject is one of the most tiring things to read on the internet. One of the more amusing aspects is reading the same people saying the same thing they did after last years price increase came along.

Even better is those that complain about the cost but in the same sentence they say they don't play the game and haven't for years.

I also must back up for argument that wargaming is not an expensive hobby. Because it's not.
Lets look at two of my other hobbies.

1) Down hill mountain biking.
Bike £1200.00 For a below average hard tail bike with front suspension. I really want to upgrade to a full suspension bike but I don't have £3000 to get one half decent. Then I need to actually get the the DH trails. So that's a car, bike rack & petrol just to be able to use the bike I've coughed up for.
Then to top it off parts fail, maintenance costs me anything between £20 and £350 depending on what part breaks, and when your doing full DH even the best parts fail eventually. Due to the cost of the hobby I only get to go riding once maybe twice a month.

My other big interest is
2) DJing. Now this has eaten my money for years.
Decks, £450 each (you need two) DJ mixer £700, CDJ's £680 each (Again you need two) Speakers, amp and all the cables you need, add another £400/500 on that.
That's just to be able to play the music not the music it's self.
Over ten years I've spent well over £10,000 on vinyl and now half my flat is taken up with the stuff, storage is a real issue. Also it used to be £4.50 a Plate, Now it's £7.50/£8

In comparison Wargaming is cheap, Very Cheap. (my cheapest hobby by a long way!)

Now don't get me wrong this does not mean I'm happy about GW putting prices up, some models I think are very expensive for what you get, But the hobby as a whole is not.

Finally I would like to make a point on the GW v PP price argument. I'm currently building a Hordes army and in comparison the models are expensive, yes you need less but to me the appeal of Warhammer is having a ton of mins to do battle with not a mear handful. Model on Model they are 6 and half a dozen.

Ha! I laugh at your pitiful hobbies! My current hobby of grounding diamonds into dust and snorting them through rolled up 500 euros bills is allot more expensive that those pittances! /sarcasm

You all kind of missed the point. There are people that only have this one hobby and that through these constant price increases can't afford it nowadays and so are forced to give it up! That you all flaunt your economical prowess while at the same time you casually dismiss these fellow gamers is, I find, of extreme bad taste and reveals the type of elitist attitude that seems to permeate everything GW nowadays!

kenshin620 wrote:I swear I saw this exact topic...last year

CT GAMER wrote:

DoctorZombie wrote: GW has consistenly told us that hobbies are expensive, and that we just need to suck up the price increases.

Care to offer any direct quotes?

Have they ever actually told people to "suck it up", or is that just part of what we imagine in our minds when we picture them in a boardroom twirling their curly mustaches and laughing maniacly as they set piles of money on fire?

I must have already use this video a long time before but its a classic

PhantomViper wrote:

deejaybainbridge wrote:This subject is one of the most tiring things to read on the internet. One of the more amusing aspects is reading the same people saying the same thing they did after last years price increase came along.

Even better is those that complain about the cost but in the same sentence they say they don't play the game and haven't for years.

I also must back up for argument that wargaming is not an expensive hobby. Because it's not.
Lets look at two of my other hobbies.

1) Down hill mountain biking.
Bike £1200.00 For a below average hard tail bike with front suspension. I really want to upgrade to a full suspension bike but I don't have £3000 to get one half decent. Then I need to actually get the the DH trails. So that's a car, bike rack & petrol just to be able to use the bike I've coughed up for.
Then to top it off parts fail, maintenance costs me anything between £20 and £350 depending on what part breaks, and when your doing full DH even the best parts fail eventually. Due to the cost of the hobby I only get to go riding once maybe twice a month.

My other big interest is
2) DJing. Now this has eaten my money for years.
Decks, £450 each (you need two) DJ mixer £700, CDJ's £680 each (Again you need two) Speakers, amp and all the cables you need, add another £400/500 on that.
That's just to be able to play the music not the music it's self.
Over ten years I've spent well over £10,000 on vinyl and now half my flat is taken up with the stuff, storage is a real issue. Also it used to be £4.50 a Plate, Now it's £7.50/£8

In comparison Wargaming is cheap, Very Cheap. (my cheapest hobby by a long way!)

Now don't get me wrong this does not mean I'm happy about GW putting prices up, some models I think are very expensive for what you get, But the hobby as a whole is not.

Finally I would like to make a point on the GW v PP price argument. I'm currently building a Hordes army and in comparison the models are expensive, yes you need less but to me the appeal of Warhammer is having a ton of mins to do battle with not a mear handful. Model on Model they are 6 and half a dozen.

Ha! I laugh at your pitiful hobbies! My current hobby of grounding diamonds into dust and snorting them through rolled up 500 euros bills is allot more expensive that those pittances! /sarcasm

You all kind of missed the point. There are people that only have this one hobby and that through these constant price increases can't afford it nowadays and so are forced to give it up! That you all flaunt your economical prowess while at the same time you casually dismiss these fellow gamers is, I find, of extreme bad taste and reveals the type of elitist attitude that seems to permeate everything GW nowadays!

Interesting choice in using the word elitist. Given everything I spend on all my hobbies has been over many years of collecting and enjoyment (10+ years in both case's), do not mistake that for little rich boy who has the cash to splash and gets what he want when he wants it regardless of price.

I budget well, buy what I can afford and enjoy it too the full. The point I was trying to make is that any hobby cost's money some more then others and as the above example shows wargaming is not at the top of the cost list regardless off your financial situation.

Shouldn't "Dakka Discussions Forum" be renamed to "GW Bashing Forum" by now?

Gnawer wrote:Shouldn't "Dakka Discussions Forum" be renamed to "GW Bashing Forum" by now?

No it should be renamed, bend over and take it like a good little consumer.

Gnawer wrote:Shouldn't "Dakka Discussions Forum" be renamed to "GW Bashing Forum" by now?

No joke. Here's a selection from just page one of Dakka Discussions:

GW committing a slow corporate suicide?
GW and cookies (more sinister/harmful?)
"Hobbies are expensive"- an open letter to GW's logic
"Quitting Warhammer"
What will you be spending your future hobby budget on, after the price increase?
Is complaining about GW's prices justifiable? (Locked)
No more White Dwarf for me...
More Finecast Shenanigins (87 pages and they still can't spell shenanigans right)
The Economics Behind GW Price Increases
Why are GW's new releases leaving me cold? (not a price rant)

10 threads just on GW complaints and pricing. 1 got locked and only because the OP said that people were whiners. I think some pruning/consolidation is in order.

pretre wrote:

Gnawer wrote:Shouldn't "Dakka Discussions Forum" be renamed to "GW Bashing Forum" by now?

No joke. Here's a selection from just page one of Dakka Discussions:

GW and cookies (more sinister/harmful?)

To be fair I was more curious! I would have posted it anyways if any other site has done so

pretre wrote:

Gnawer wrote:Shouldn't "Dakka Discussions Forum" be renamed to "GW Bashing Forum" by now?

No joke. Here's a selection from just page one of Dakka Discussions:

GW committing a slow corporate suicide?
GW and cookies (more sinister/harmful?)
"Hobbies are expensive"- an open letter to GW's logic
"Quitting Warhammer"
What will you be spending your future hobby budget on, after the price increase?
Is complaining about GW's prices justifiable? (Locked)
No more White Dwarf for me...
More Finecast Shenanigins (87 pages and they still can't spell shenanigans right)
The Economics Behind GW Price Increases
Why are GW's new releases leaving me cold? (not a price rant)

10 threads just on GW complaints and pricing. 1 got locked and only because the OP said that people were whiners. I think some pruning/consolidation is in order.

I agree, we wouldn't wan't to give the appearance that the GW player base isn't happy with their upcoming price increase and release of a new rules edition with no apparent warning, now wouldn't we?!

kenshin620 wrote:

pretre wrote:GW and cookies (more sinister/harmful?)

To be fair I was more curious! I would have posted it anyways if any other site has done so

Not to dig at you, but that same thread has been posted like 10 times in the last 6 months. It isn't news. Also, cookies are used like this by practically every site on the intertubes. It is only notable because it is GW. :(

pretre wrote:

Gnawer wrote:Shouldn't "Dakka Discussions Forum" be renamed to "GW Bashing Forum" by now?

No joke. Here's a selection from just page one of Dakka Discussions:

GW committing a slow corporate suicide?
GW and cookies (more sinister/harmful?)
"Hobbies are expensive"- an open letter to GW's logic
"Quitting Warhammer"
What will you be spending your future hobby budget on, after the price increase?
Is complaining about GW's prices justifiable? (Locked)
No more White Dwarf for me...
More Finecast Shenanigins (87 pages and they still can't spell shenanigans right)
The Economics Behind GW Price Increases
Why are GW's new releases leaving me cold? (not a price rant)

10 threads just on GW complaints and pricing. 1 got locked and only because the OP said that people were whiners. I think some pruning/consolidation is in order.

Careful. You might get misconstrued as a white knight with talk like that...

CainTheHunter wrote:

mikhaila wrote:

CainTheHunter wrote:Btw, You can get Yourself a decent Flames of War 2000 points army for less than 50-60 pounds, so it is not really that expensive as 40K or WarmaHordes (the latter, I've heard is darn expensive).

Not really. You can get A decent FOW army, but not necessarily the one you want to play.)

The average FOW army is about 300.00 US, this coming from comparing prices of the armies about 50 of my customers have put together, and statements from Battlefront employees. You can easily spend 500-600 on an FOW army. Greatly depends on the list, and especially training level. Confident trained lists take about 60% more models than a Fearless Veteran list.

Only if You are dead-set on sticking with BF models. The Plastic Soldier Company, Wargames Factory and numerous others offer cheaper minis, so You can easily get a basic Tank Company or even Gepanzerte Panzergrenadier Force (with ~ 11-15 halfttracks which are arguably the most expensive part there) for 50-60 pounds.

Which horribly limits you're choice of armies, and gets you inferior models. If that's what you want to play, go for it, but it doesn't represent the average price people pay for a FOW army. I can do very cheap WFB army if I limit myself to the cheapest mantic miniatures, or stuff from GW starter sets. And you can get a cheap WM army if you only worry about price, and not about getting your ass kicked around the table.

daedalus wrote:Careful. You might get misconstrued as a white knight with talk like that...

No, usually the accusation is apologist.

Inferior is in the eye of the beholder. There is some rubbish out there in plastic, there are some gems.

The major difference here is that there is competition. If someone thinks they can make a better, cheeper Tiger, there isn't anyone preventing them from doing so, and the consumer has that choice.

Persoanlly, and I only have anecdotal evidence to support this, I think the average price of a FoW army is high because BF has two things going for it...completeness of range and ease of obtaining the models.

Personally, my -first- FoW was pricey...started with Germans, BF was carried by my local store, so that is what I picked up and used.

My second on was pricey because...no one other than BF really has a complete Finnish product line.

My third one however, will be substantially cheeper. There are several quality non-BF makers of 15mm Russians and the ease of obtaining from those companies is just about as simple as going to the FLGS and picking up a box.