"Hobbies are expensive"- an open letter to GW's logic

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**AresX8**

heartserenade wrote:.....

Winning Top 8 in 3 major M:tG tournaments with decks costing less than $22 says otherwise... All in Type 2. granted, this was years before but it still proves that you don't strictly need to spend a fortune to have a competitive deck.

http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=5863
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/61
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/21
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/64
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/124

I even entered Nationals with a budget deck, but sadly I suck at draft.

One thing you can also do with magic is card rotation: if you have enough experience buy the cards you think would be staple cards while the metagame hasn't recognized them and they're still cheap, then after hoarding sell them like crazy. I bought more than a dozen Cloudthreshers for $1 each, then sold them two months after for at least $15. It'll take most of your time, though, since you will need to interact with the player base a lot and trade with them.

Sell your competitive cards on the sweet spot where they would still be used in major tournaments but right before they phase out. Predict the new hot cards, and buy them while they're still cheap. Trade those cards with the ones you will need in order to stay competitive. Having a team also helps, where you can share your cardpool with each other (and you have practice partners to boot).

Magic is only more expensive than wargaming if you don't play it smart.

Additionally, a person owning expensive cards and putting them on their jeans or whatever is an idiot. They're expensive: put them in protective sleeves inside your binders. Especially with Type 1 collectibles, why aren't you putting them on those thick card cases? It's like complaining that your paintjob chipped off or your model broke because you didn't put them in protective foam and didn't put varnish on them while travelling, really.

You know those decks you posted are 5 years old and are no longer representative of how Standard/Type 2 currently is?

THIS is the current Standard/Type 2 meta:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1012591
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1012588
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1012587
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1015152

A deck averages $300 USD. Factor in that the decks have to change as the meta changes when new decks are created and new sets come out. Now factor in the fact that you need to get a completely new deck every 2 years due to the planned obsolescence that Wizards does. I stopped playing MTG competitively and I can attest that it is MUCH MUCH more expensive than 40k.

EDIT: Good luck selling cards that are rotating out to other players right before rotation. They're also looking to get rid of the same cards, so the safest bet would be to sell to a vendor, who will pay a fraction of the card's value as it's also rotating out. It's also much harder to predict what's going to be an incredible staple because of how the meta works. During my prime time in MTG, I remember that this card in particular was hyped up as "waiting for a deck to be used in." His value was artificially high because of these expectations. He was never used. Same thing with this guy. You know who was hyped though? Jace, the Wallet Sculptor. He hit $100 in value, and had to be banned from Standard as he was warping the format all by himself.

**kenshin620**

pretre wrote:
kenshin620 wrote:
pretre wrote:GW and cookies (more sinister/harmful?)

To be fair I was more curious! I would have posted it anyways if any other site has done so

Not to dig at you, but that same thread has been posted like 10 times in the last 6 months. It isn't news. Also, cookies are used like this by practically every site on the intertubes. It is only notable because it is GW. :(

Aww ok

*puts away tinfoil hat*

Anyways, onto the topic of money and hobbies...

**Phototoxin**

I think a major factor is fun:cost ratio.

This also depends on availability of opponents and the like.

**angel of ecstasy**

Phototoxin wrote:I think a major factor is fun:cost ratio.

This also depends on availability of opponents and the like.

Nope, the major factor is finecast

**Abyssel**

A shop a couple miles from me has kind of solved this issue.

He's been selling miniature wargaming stuff since the 80's, hell he still has some of it.

He never changes the prices on his stuff, and thus, he makes good money. When you stroll in and find a land raider for $40, you'll buy it. Metal models for $5, yep, thats on the bill to.

If only more shops where like his..

**Scott-S6**

heartserenade wrote:One thing you can also do with magic is card rotation: if you have enough experience buy the cards you think would be staple cards while the metagame hasn't recognized them and they're still cheap, then after hoarding sell them like crazy. I bought more than a dozen Cloudthreshers for $1 each, then sold them two months after for at least $15. It'll take most of your time, though, since you will need to interact with the player base a lot and trade with them.

Just because you can invest a ton of time into buying and selling to subsidise the hobby does not make MtG any cheaper.

You can do the same with other wargames and other hobbies if you want.

**UsdiThunder**

The one good thing about all of this is when the price hike takes effect it will give me more money when I trade my army in to the local bargain bins.

**stormwell**

CainTheHunter wrote:Btw, You can get Yourself a decent Flames of War 2000 points army for less than 50-60 pounds, so it is not really that expensive as 40K or WarmaHordes (the latter, I've heard is darn expensive).

WarmaHordes actually works out cheaper than 40K in the long run, you don't need that many models to play an average sized game and there aren't really any auto-includes or must haves that you need much less win a game with.

**mattyrm**

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

I agree with the "stop whinging" crowd.

I have about 2500pts of Space Marines, that's it. No more armies, I picked the one I liked the best and got one (Vanilla SM)

I have the contents from AOBR twice cos me and a mate got one each, 4 speeders I got off ebay, a TFC from ebay, all of my rhinos bar one from ebay, a whirlwind a mate gave me and some assault terminators. The only stuff I bought new was when me and said mate did a mass buy from Dark Sphere, and I got a LR, the assault termies, Telion, 5 scouts and a predator.

I got all my paint off ebay (about 15 colours?) and I think it was about 7 quid.

You can play this game, and it can cost you feth all because when you play a game, your figures dont really get blown up or hosed in promethium.

About £250 over three years its cost me. A drop in the ocean.

If your a whiny entitled spoilt bastard, you tend to think that you somehow deserve a 45,000 point army and every paint in the range becayse you really really like warhammer?

You don't, and your a fething idiot.

GW is the most expensive cos its the most popular, that's the way it works. If you want to play something cheaper, then crack on. Play hordes or mantic or whatever the feth you like, you wont see me going into the hordes thread saying it sucks.. so why must the GW haters spam all the GW threads?

I don't see the need for literally endless, unending, incessant fething whinging.

**GeekPride**

I buy a lot of my stuff off ebay, bulk lots and the like. can find bargins on there!

**daedalus**

Gah, I'm actually agreeing with Matty. Time to scrub the brain with alcohol!

**Scott-S6**

mattyrm wrote: GW is the most expensive cos its the most popular, that's the way it works.

It's not even the most expensive per mini - it's the most expensive because you need loads of minis.

**angryboy2k**

Tigerone wrote:
Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

100% the truth....

Not quite 100% the truth. Scuba diving is proving to be MUCH cheaper for me than wargaming.

**heartserenade**

AresX8 wrote:
heartserenade wrote:.....

Winning Top 8 in 3 major M:tG tournaments with decks costing less than $22 says otherwise... All in Type 2. granted, this was years before but it still proves that you don't strictly need to spend a fortune to have a competitive deck.

http://www.deckcheck.de/deck.php?id=5863
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/61
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/21
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/64
http://www.neutralgrounds.net/index.php/post/index/124

I even entered Nationals with a budget deck, but sadly I suck at draft.

One thing you can also do with magic is card rotation: if you have enough experience buy the cards you think would be staple cards while the metagame hasn't recognized them and they're still cheap, then after hoarding sell them like crazy. I bought more than a dozen Cloudthreshers for $1 each, then sold them two months after for at least $15. It'll take most of your time, though, since you will need to interact with the player base a lot and trade with them.

Sell your competitive cards on the sweet spot where they would still be used in major tournaments but right before they phase out. Predict the new hot cards, and buy them while they're still cheap. Trade those cards with the ones you will need in order to stay competitive. Having a team also helps, where you can share your cardpool with each other (and you have practice partners to boot).

Magic is only more expensive than wargaming if you don't play it smart.

Additionally, a person owning expensive cards and putting them on their jeans or whatever is an idiot. They're expensive: put them in protective sleeves inside your binders. Especially with Type 1 collectibles, why aren't you putting them on those thick card cases? It's like complaining that your paintjob chipped off or your model broke because you didn't put them in protective foam and didn't put varnish on them while travelling, really.

You know those decks you posted are 5 years old and are no longer representative of how Standard/Type 2 currently is?

THIS is the current Standard/Type 2 meta:

http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1012591
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1012588
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1012587
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1015152

A deck averages $300 USD. Factor in that the decks have to change as the meta changes when new decks are created and new sets come out. Now factor in the fact that you need to get a completely new deck every 2 years due to the planned obsolescence that Wizards does. I stopped playing MTG competitively and I can attest that it is MUCH MUCH more expensive than 40k.

EDIT: Good luck selling cards that are rotating out to other players right before rotation. They're also looking to get rid of the same cards, so the safest bet would be to sell to a vendor, who will pay a fraction of the card's value as it's also rotating out. It's also much harder to predict what's going to be an incredible staple because of how the meta works. During my prime time in MTG, I remember that this card in particular was hyped up as "waiting for a deck to be used in." His value was artificially high because of these expectations. He was never used. Same thing with this guy. You know who was hyped though? Jace, the Wallet Sculptor. He hit $100 in value, and had to be banned from Standard as he was warping the format all by himself.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that when I was playing, it wasn't that expensive? It CAN get expensive but I always choose to use cheap decks (and the occasional expensive one if I fancy it).

I did mention it was years before and I'm not really updated with current T2, so there's that.

We had a good sense of what underrated cards are going to suddenly boom. And yes there were flops but that's part of the risk. And, in the sense, we ARE the vendor (who also happens to play competitively). And as I have said, working as a team really helps: each one of you buying box sets, sharing the cardpool and selling/trading cards we don't need helps us out a lot and mitigates costs by a bunch.

And with selling cards just before rotation: sell them right before major tournaments. Nationals here is usually 3 months away from rotation of the next expansion, and before that there's Regionals and National Qualifiers. There will always be people still trying to find cards before that. keep the cards you will use, sell the others.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scott-S6 wrote:
heartserenade wrote:One thing you can also do with magic is card rotation: if you have enough experience buy the cards you think would be staple cards while the metagame hasn't recognized them and they're still cheap, then after hoarding sell them like crazy. I bought more than a dozen Cloudthreshers for $1 each, then sold them two months after for at least $15. It'll take most of your time, though, since you will need to interact with the player base a lot and trade with them.

Just because you can invest a ton of time into buying and selling to subsidise the hobby does not make MtG any cheaper.

You can do the same with other wargames and other hobbies if you want.

I think it'll be hard to buy and resell miniature figures....

And I'm a commission painter and if I paint up a figure, I would always get underpaid for labor.

**poda_t**

What i find interesting is that GW is using arguments like "we have to increase our prices to defend ourselves against 3rd party manufactuerers", and what's driving people toward said third parties is the increasing cost of the GW hobby. What's nuts about GW is that somehow, their logo on the tools make them... work... more... like ... a GW tool..? I don't understand why I should pay $5-8 for glue when I can pay $2-5 for the same stuff from my FLGS. The tools are ridiculously priced as well... the fact is GW is and expensive hobby, that has walked away from conversions and started embracing sales. I wonder, if they sell plasticard, if it will be 3x as expensive as from plastruct, even if plastruct was the primary supplier?

anyway, the hobby is as expensive as you make it. Want to pay less? find methods of paying less. You will have exactly no luck convincing of GW anything, and the only thing you should be writing letters to them for is if a problem came up with a purchase, and include your rant in there.

**Ovion**

What I would say here, is that I've not been able to find certain things cheaper, or for a better quality than the Games Workshop ones.

This is primarily the Pin Drill and the hobby vice.
The Pin Drill cover 0.3mm up to 2-3mm, it also comes with 6 1mm bits.
When trying to find a cheaper alternative, I could not, as I'd have needed to buy 2 drills (a 0.3-1.5 and 1.3-3) for £4 each + the drill bits seperately.) As well as that, it has the rotating head for easier drilling.
As for a hobby vice, I couldn't find one with a suction locking base AND the rubber grips for a reasonable price.

The clippers are also quite good, though this as much as anything is my personal preference, and if my clippers break again, I may just go for a cheaper alternative with price rises...

Also, if I could find out where the GW brand tools came from I would buy them in a heartbeat, being they would be significantly cheaper. But, as it is, buying the occasional tool instore fits the whole pay-where-you-play ethos.

**Vulcan**

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Guess none of you have ever looked around at the other hobbies out there, huh? I worked at a HobbyTown and saw some crazy stuff. $3000 remote control cars, $2000 r/c planes, model railroads with 1000s of dollars in time and material. And none of these are one time purchases. Or like the pool players who play at the pool hall I work at now, who spend thousands on a stick, but don't have a pool table of their own.

Thinking this is the only hobby out there that costs money is ridiculous. If you love it, you will make a portion of your budget fit it.

I reiterate: We are not complaining that wargaming is too expensive. We are complaing that GW makes mediocre - or even defective (thanks, 'Finecast') - models and charges for them like they were gold. And then pretends that they are the ONLY source for wargame minis.

As I've pointed out, Mantic and Perry both make minis just as good - if not better - than GW's for far less price. Why GW gets a pass on INSISTING on being noncompetitive I'll never understand.

**Happygrunt**

To add into the talk about hobby expenses, I have a couple of experiences for non-wargaming.

Yu-gi-oh, which I play in a gaming group with some friends, is usually .50-$1 per card. Or structure decks for $12. You can build a very competent deck for about $20. Not too bad for a few evenings of entertainment.

PC gaming is actually CHEAPER now. I have a middle of the line laptop that plays most things (albeit heating up like a mofo), but I just bought Torchlight 2 for $20 and a free copy of Torchlight. Steam sales are so common that I end up paying about 2/3rds of the price of games when I wait.

So, for the price of a tac-squad, I could get two decks or two PC games. Interesting...

**poda_t**

Happygrunt wrote:To add into the talk about hobby expenses, I have a couple of experiences for non-wargaming.

Yu-gi-oh, which I play in a gaming group with some friends, is usually .50-$1 per card. Or structure decks for $12. You can build a very competent deck for about $20. Not too bad for a few evenings of entertainment.

PC gaming is actually CHEAPER now. I have a middle of the line laptop that plays most things (albeit heating up like a mofo), but I just bought Torchlight 2 for $20 and a free copy of Torchlight. Steam sales are so common that I end up paying about 2/3rds of the price of games when I wait.

So, for the price of a tac-squad, I could get two decks or two PC games. Interesting...

don't bring argument's about time for cost. Because there are some games that cost $60 brand new. Then, because it's now a business model to sell unfinished games and charge $10-20 for the "addons", by the time all's said and done, you paid closer to $100 for a game, whose expansions you barely played.

you coudl also argue that you spend 6 to 10 hours assemblign and painting a tactical squad, and then add... ooooh.. say at least 100 hours of gaming for the lifetime that they might last (either until you sell them or that army loses favor or they get destroyed etc.) These kinds of arguments are silly because they're not that constructive. I've paid a lot less for my non-GW IG, but still haven't had an opportunity to really play with them...

**Happygrunt**

poda_t wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:To add into the talk about hobby expenses, I have a couple of experiences for non-wargaming.

Yu-gi-oh, which I play in a gaming group with some friends, is usually .50-$1 per card. Or structure decks for $12. You can build a very competent deck for about $20. Not too bad for a few evenings of entertainment.

PC gaming is actually CHEAPER now. I have a middle of the line laptop that plays most things (albeit heating up like a mofo), but I just bought Torchlight 2 for $20 and a free copy of Torchlight. Steam sales are so common that I end up paying about 2/3rds of the price of games when I wait.

So, for the price of a tac-squad, I could get two decks or two PC games. Interesting...

don't bring argument's about time for cost. Because there are some games that cost $60 brand new. Then, because it's now a business model to sell unfinished games and charge $10-20 for the "addons", by the time all's said and done, you paid closer to $100 for a game, whose expansions you barely played.

you coudl also argue that you spend 6 to 10 hours assemblign and painting a tactical squad, and then add... ooooh.. say at least 100 hours of gaming for the lifetime that they might last (either until you sell them or that army loses favor or they get destroyed etc.) These kinds of arguments are silly because they're not that constructive. I've paid a lot less for my non-GW IG, but still haven't had an opportunity to really play with them...

6 to 10 hours to assemble and paint a tac squad? What?!?! Takes me One hour to assemble and 2-3 to paint.

**CajunMan550**

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

Course there are stuff more expensive I can also spend my whole pay check on hookers and blow that doesn't make it better. Magic I can buy a deck for 30 dollars and it be everything I want unless you need every new card that comes out you don't spend much. Video games? I play Starcraft 2 non stop for one easy purchase of 60$. All of the other things you listed involve machines such as bikes or tons of gear. You are buy little plastic men from a company that gives you horsegak for support and raises prices annually for nothing Imperial Guardsmen are the same mold from 5 years ago but are nearly double the price sure makes alot of sense.

**poda_t**

Happygrunt wrote:
poda_t wrote:
Happygrunt wrote:To add into the talk about hobby expenses, I have a couple of experiences for non-wargaming.

Yu-gi-oh, which I play in a gaming group with some friends, is usually .50-$1 per card. Or structure decks for $12. You can build a very competent deck for about $20. Not too bad for a few evenings of entertainment.

PC gaming is actually CHEAPER now. I have a middle of the line laptop that plays most things (albeit heating up like a mofo), but I just bought Torchlight 2 for $20 and a free copy of Torchlight. Steam sales are so common that I end up paying about 2/3rds of the price of games when I wait.

So, for the price of a tac-squad, I could get two decks or two PC games. Interesting...

don't bring argument's about time for cost. Because there are some games that cost $60 brand new. Then, because it's now a business model to sell unfinished games and charge $10-20 for the "addons", by the time all's said and done, you paid closer to $100 for a game, whose expansions you barely played.

you coudl also argue that you spend 6 to 10 hours assemblign and painting a tactical squad, and then add... ooooh.. say at least 100 hours of gaming for the lifetime that they might last (either until you sell them or that army loses favor or they get destroyed etc.) These kinds of arguments are silly because they're not that constructive. I've paid a lot less for my non-GW IG, but still haven't had an opportunity to really play with them...

6 to 10 hours to assemble and paint a tac squad? What?!?! Takes me One hour to assemble and 2-3 to paint.

some are more..... deliberate in their planning. I spent more time than you did simple on account of all the cleaning and planning. If you are aiming for a particular aesthetic, you will plan everything out and triple check everything and clean everything..... etc. then if you add custom work..... yeah, it gets easy to exceed 10 hours just for building 10 doodz. Especially if you start adding magnets and an "armory "to hold the options.

**Milisim**

the reality of Gw is that people buy their products... Wether we buy from 3rd party suppliers or not does not hurt GW's bottom line. We think we are getting a deal but GW still sells to everyone for the same price unless your the kind of arsehat who actually orders from the GW website for full MSRP.

At the end of the day, its all supply and demand. We stop buying, stuff WILL go down in price. It has to or they go bankrupt. Everyone always poo poo the idea of a boycott as capable of nothing. It would work if everyone was on board.. sadly we as a collective group are as solid as soup sandwich and would just give up after about 1.2 seconds.

With all that said.. I just ordered some more GW shyte =]

**Scott-S6**

heartserenade wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
You can do the same with other wargames and other hobbies if you want.

I think it'll be hard to buy and resell miniature figures....
And I'm a commission painter and if I paint up a figure, I would always get underpaid for labor.

Did you make enough on those cards you were buying and selling to cover your labour (bearing in mind that keeping up with trends takes "most of your time")?

There's quite a few folks on here that subsidise their hobby by buying horrible models on eBay, stripping them and selling them on.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CajunMan550 wrote: Video games? I play Starcraft 2 non stop for one easy purchase of 60$. All of the other things you listed involve machines such as bikes or tons of gear.

No machines or gear required for playing starcraft? Add in the cost of a low-end gaming machine and you've spent as much as an army.

**heartserenade**

Scott-S6 wrote:
heartserenade wrote:
Scott-S6 wrote:
You can do the same with other wargames and other hobbies if you want.

I think it'll be hard to buy and resell miniature figures....
And I'm a commission painter and if I paint up a figure, I would always get underpaid for labor.

Did you make enough on those cards you were buying and selling to cover your labour (bearing in mind that keeping up with trends takes "most of your time")?

There's quite a few folks on here that subsidise their hobby by buying horrible models on eBay, stripping them and selling them on.

Since most of my time those days were spent playtesting at least 5 hours a day (excluding online playtesting) and interacting with other players... yes.

**-Loki-**

Scott-S6 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

CajunMan550 wrote: Video games? I play Starcraft 2 non stop for one easy purchase of 60$. All of the other things you listed involve machines such as bikes or tons of gear.

No machines or gear required for playing starcraft? Add in the cost of a low-end gaming machine and you've spent as much as an army.

People conveniently forget the cost of a system, especially PC gaming. While it's easy to say everyone these days has a PC, not everyone has a PC capable of playing recent releases.

**CageUF**

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

I kind of agree...

40k is a very expensive GAME. Its a relatively cheap hobby. To put this into prospective Ive got somewhere around 30,000 pts between all of my armies. Some of them were purchased 2nd hand, but most were bought with a 2030% discount. All and all I've got maybe 3k into the hobby.

Conversely, I've got ~4k into my scuba gear, ~7k into my firearms and another ~40k into my racecar.

**Byte**

My hobbies include but aren't limited to ATVing, paintball, collecting guitars, basses and forged swords, my car, my house, drinking fine scotch and bourbon, books, video games, gun shows, pawn and thrift store shopping, golf, and of course RPGs and table top games, to name most.

Did I mention I still have boxes of old MTG and comics from that phase of my life/interest...

Point is, you budget for what your into and it should be a marathon not a sprint.

You can't eat/enjoy caviar on a bologna budget. It's a sad and simple truth. If the "market" supports GW's price increases. Than GW will continue to raise prices. If sales drop or interest fades, they may reconsider their sales approach. Until than, they're in a good position as far as I can tell.

**Howard A Treesong**

timetowaste85 wrote:
In my experience, MTG is really cheap. Certainly cheaper than Yugioh or Pokemon TCG by a long shot. And while TCGs aren't that cheap, Warhammer is more expensive.
But even then, for the £300-500 it'd take me to make a basic army from the ground up to 1500-2000pts, I would have a good few thousand cards to play with in any given system.

Magic is only cheap if you don't care about being competitive and don't play type II. If you want to be competitive, it'll cost you a few hundred bucks...

Get a couple sets of AoBR, a tech marine, a few rhinos and some bitz to customize Sternguard-you suddenly have an 1850 army for a hundred bucks-and that's with maybe a 25% discount. Cheaper than any competitive Magic deck.

**heartserenade**

There's also playing Draft, and you get to keep the cards you pick.