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Doesn't draft cost $15-20? If you play a draft tournament twice a month then you've spent the cost of an army in a year.

I converted to WM just because I felt I got a better bang for my buck, not to mention the gaming system feels better. The cost will come with every system, but you are going to make that choice of what calls to you and generally your going to go with it no matter what happens until you make the decision it's time to move on.

I loved playing 40k and owned several armies. I just started to feel that 40k wasn't all that fun anymore with some of things they were coming out with an lets face it with SM's nothing is really all that different it's just another marine with a new weapon. I expanded and moved to Orcs and IG which I will say I really enjoyed as they were different more variety in the units, but still didn't feel like I was enjoying myself so I started to shop around and found WM. I started out with a small box of Cryx and after some friends of mine taught me the ropes I was off to the races.

WM initially is very cheap to get started but it can stack up just as fast as I am up over 200 pts of Cryx right now and probably $1000 into it now, plus my son just got into it with me and we have $400 worth of Cygnar. I think the allure of WM is the fact you can literally get a starter box and maybe pick up a couple units and you have a pretty competitive list for under $130 with a rule book. (based on the current summer sales) You can't do that with 40k unless you go to ebay and have the patience to wait and hope, and lets face it with any game out there as soon as something new comes out nobody settles for what they have, they have to get the new guy. That is what messes people around the most. Nobody will build an army and be content with it they will always have to build. Prices will go up but have you looked at everything else lately. Gas, Food, Clothing, it's all up as well so I think they are just following the trends the only difference is this one is optional.

There a good chance that you'll get your money back with your card picks. Sometimes just one card is enough to cover the expense. On the average, you'll get cards that'll make the entrance seem around $5-10.

M:tG becomes expensive if you buy your cards in singles with third party vendors. It's not expensive (and even lucrative) if you ARE the third party vendor. Seriously, if you're playing competitively you're hanging out with people who play Magic a lot and they need cards: you're already in contact with your market while playing cards, so you get to earn money while taking breaks from playing and simply hanging out with friends. Not bad if you buy cards by boxes, you'll get profit and you keep the cards you want or trade cards for those you don't need.

And for the remaining trash cards, there's always trash draft.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Surtur wrote:Let me tell you, the Warmahorde section of Dakka is gettin busy with "I'm new" threads...

Infinity just got their own section on the forum

So did mantic, and by extension, kings of war. With the awesome stuff you can get in the KoW kickstarter, its an awesome time to be looking at alternatives.

So when they do drop prices, it will go back to where it is now. Nothings going to change Gw prices. Theres plenty of gamers out there that support gamesworkshop. Sure, the prices may be high, but thats the downfall of such a great hobby. And besides, I cant concievably see a tactical squad ever costing more than $60. They will raise prices again. But eventually they will stop,

Yeah, the moment you open Warhammer figures they are devalued, 2nd hand stuff never sells for RRP, unless you genuinely pro-paint it. MtG on the other hand, well I often draw cards valued at more then the pack price. The contents of the pack are worth more than a sealed pack. That never happens with GW figures, but that's a reflection of the entirely different systems being compared. If GW sold sealed boxes like Heroclix then you'd see the same effect there, with people paying £50 for a single sought after figure. With GW figures you always know what you are buying, there are not mystery boxes of figures. But on the other hand, a pack of MtG costs almost pocket money. Nothing in GW costs pocket money.

Scott-S6 wrote:Doesn't draft cost $15-20? If you play a draft tournament twice a month then you've spent the cost of an army in a year.

But you'll play every fortnight of the year, not save up until christmas. Of course you don't need to buy that often, and you build up cards for constructed play. With GW you need to have laid out a lot more money before you can play a reasonable game. $15-20 in GW buys you a tiny box or a single figure.

People seem to be saying the MtG is more expensive than Warhammer because you have to pay as more in order to have a top tier tournament deck. Yet it's always possible to play games with a smaller lay out. Even the basics for GW games (1500-2000 points seems standard) require a high expenditure, there is no budget approach I can see, even for friendly games.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Even the basics for GW games (1500-2000 points seems standard) require a high expenditure, there is no budget approach I can see, even for friendly games.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/53922635/Warhammer-40k-in-40-mins

Look to be a format well supported, a White Dwarf article from nearly 10 years ago...

Another point that is really related to thee topic: people forget the computer cost for videogames, true, but there's also cost on other stuff in miniature wargaming that are not based solely on the minis: terrain (especially for people who likes buying nice resin/plastic kits from terrain makers), the board and table you're going to play, hobby supplies (glue, foliage, cutting tools, etc.), paints, etc.

It's only fair to factor in the cost of the rest of the stuff that're not minis if you also factor in the computer setup. I'm curious to see how they compare.

lol, no way, people being unfair and biased when making comparisons? On Dakka?

Oh, but let me guess though: "You don't really need terrain or even paint when playing wargames, though. But when you buy a gaming computer you definitely need a dual monitor set-up with two high-end graphics cards and a $300+ surround sound system!"

IMO, here's how it goes :

Warmahordes can be expensive, depending of the point level you play, and there are really good deals and buying opportunities out there. Hell, I've made my 50 pts really quickly and cheaply, I didn't even felt I've spent money. The rules are tactically balanced, and the game difficulty is moderate (except when playing Cryx, which is kinda difficult and expensive because of the banes)

W40k a little more expensive than Warmahordes, models aren't as finely sculpted and detailed, there aren't any real deal out there to reduce the cost, even when it's second hand. Plus, making an army ain't quick. To pass from one level of play to another (ex : 700 to 1000 pts) you have to buy numerous packs (ex : a soldier box, a vehicule and a tank). There's no quick way and no quick buying. It's slow and it's expensive. The game is absolutly not balanced, and the whole point of 6th ed should be to correct that by nerfing down some armies and upgrading others.

WHFB is as expensive, but there are really GOOD deals out there on te web. With 90$, I can make a 1000 pts list. And if I want to boost to 1500, I only have to add another 30-50 $ (I made list to see it). I know most people play 2000-2500 games, but who cares ? 1000 and 1500 pts are just as fine. Plus, let's face it, you won't spend 50% of your budget on transports that have crappy weapons. Plus, let's also face it, WHFB produce a far more sophisticated line of models than W40k (except maybe eldar and dark eldar, and even then :S). The game as an element of randomness, but not to the point of making player strategy irrevelant. The recent armies of 8th ed are more balanced than the those of the previous edition, and 40k should follow this example

Being one of the "many" who walked away from GW and it's products last year, actually gave me a more positive view of GW and it's products.

Yes there are down sides, cost being one of them, but...BUT, I have to say, for all the negativity, it is one of the BEST supported games out there. Sure it;s the most popular, but has anyone asked why that is? I know they've been around for a while, but is that really all there is to it? I doubt it. Anyone who's taken a trip to Warhammer World will see how much goes into the GW machine.

I'm not a GW fan, but considering the competition, I think they're actually not a bad bunch.

GW treat miniatures wargaming like a business....for some hobbyists, this is a negative approach. Well, I disagree, I think it's a better approach than alot of these "Johhny come lately" games developers, who want success but continually hide behind the excuse..."we're just a small company...blah, blah, blah".....no start up in any other industry uses their size as an excuse to producing half arsed products.....I'll give you an example:

MERCS Minis....great little game. Expandability, almost zero. Background: lacking. Miniature releases: seldom. Reasons, because the guys are doing the game development as a part time job!!!!!!!!

Yep, that's the alternative to GW, right there....amateurs. DOn't get me wrong, I admire the guys at MERCS, I really do, but I would hate if this model of productivity was the "norm" for the hobby.....my god, It would stagnate and be dead in months.

No one likes paying for their pleasures, but it's a simple fact of life. Unfortunately, ride the wild horse or walk home....thems the options.

Sidstyler wrote:lol, no way, people being unfair and biased when making comparisons? On Dakka?

Oh, but let me guess though: "You don't really need terrain or even paint when playing wargames, though. But when you buy a gaming computer you definitely need a dual monitor set-up with two high-end graphics cards and a $300+ surround sound system!"

Only a dual monitor setup and $300 surround sound system? Get that poverty setup out of here man.

Real men use this:


You don't even need models to play 40k, just pieces of paper with dudes drawn on! I bet you that's waaay cheaper than any other game out there so bollocks to you and your uncle or whatever the British say haha

In all honesty though, I agree with the dude who said that 40k is a cheap hobby but an expensive game. That's how I view it and I'm fine with that.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Howard A Treesong wrote:Look to be a format well supported, a White Dwarf article from nearly 10 years ago...

The point is - no-one forces you to play at 1500-2000 points. Other points levels are equally valid.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Real men use this:

I wonder why those gamers have a video of a dead woman on their TV while playing WoW.

Delephont wrote:Yes there are down sides, cost being one of them, but...BUT, I have to say, for all the negativity, it is one of the BEST supported games out there. Sure it;s the most popular, but has anyone asked why that is? I know they've been around for a while, but is that really all there is to it? I doubt it. Anyone who's taken a trip to Warhammer World will see how much goes into the GW machine.

I was making a point during last year's "hate rage season" on of how extensive the miniature range is for GW and was blasted because some companies have "one of" bunnies with guns and pumpkinhead trench coat guys... I'm talking fine detailed ARMIES and all associated specialty games.

I agree with you 100%, Haters or GW players have to understand the GW has the most extensive and detailed(considering range and depth of range) 28mm miniatures in the world. Literally thousands of figures and plastics kits. GW is a beast! Not sure why this behemoth continually gets compared to companies that can only produce a few minis than die on the vine.

Byte wrote:

Delephont wrote:Yes there are down sides, cost being one of them, but...BUT, I have to say, for all the negativity, it is one of the BEST supported games out there. Sure it;s the most popular, but has anyone asked why that is? I know they've been around for a while, but is that really all there is to it? I doubt it. Anyone who's taken a trip to Warhammer World will see how much goes into the GW machine.

I was making a point last year during hate rage season on of how extensive the miniature range is in the GW and was blasted because some companies have one of bunnies with guns and pumpkinhead trench coat guys... I'm talking fine detailed ARMIES and all associated specialty games.

I agree with you 100%, Haters or GW players have to understand the GW has the most extensive and detailed(considering range and depth of range) 28mm miniatures in the world. Literally thousands of figures and plastics kits. GW is a beast! Not sure why this behemoth continually gets compared to companies that can only produce a few minis than die on the vine.

Yes 40k and fantasy might be expensive, but like Byte said, GW is way more than 40k and fantasy.

Their specialty games may be neglected by GW, but they are still some of the best miniature games around.

For less than $100 you can own a 1500 BFG fleet. For about $50 you can buy a full metal bloodbowl team. Hell, for less than $50 you can have a full necromunda/inquisitor/mordiehiem gang.

All these games have great communities, and have as many active players as any minature game other than 40k/fantasy, warmahordes, and flames of war. And if these specialty games got the player base it deserves, they would be fully supported by GW. I still believe that BFG is the greatest tactical miniature game out of the Games-Workshop lineup, and maybe the whole market.

-Liquid

But no one plays those alternate games. I havnt Ever seen a specialist game played in any store in the 20 years I've been in and out of Gw's and flgs's. (actually I remember seeing Space Hulk a couple of times in the 90's)

Also a key component missed in magic is resale. Many cards can be sold to compensate monies spent and in some situations make a profit, especially if you only want to play and not collect. Try selling your warhammer army and getting more than 50% of what they are worth. Painted? Arguably worse since most purchasers arnt interested in your army theme or colors, and would prefer a NIB equivalent.

It comes down to battered spouse syndrome, most people who have committed themselves their first minicompany in GW are too _____ (uninterested, comfortable, scared, stubborn, stupid) to leave when it gets abusive.

I like GW in theory, they capitalized on an evolution of nerdom. Look from DnD on paper and grid in the late 70's to Warcraft on PC in the 90's, and what do you expect to find in the 80's? A ton of minis ala dnd put together in a rudementatry 'balanced' combat simulator like a Real Time Strategy.

But that was 20+ years ago. And what have they done with it? Warhammer Online flopped, and most recently DoW2, while profitable was riddled with customer compaints until the entire community collapsed and GW/THQ canned the staff (make your own parallel here). DoW 1 was a bright spot that is worth mentioning, but since it too has gone the way of Dodo and was replaced by a failure it's kinda hard to be positive about it now.

Is warhammer more popular now? Does anyone play Lotr? Or Dreadfleet? Or any electronic GW IP game?

40k is cheaper then my videogame habit as well. One of roommates spends a substantial amount on cigarettes and compares his hobby purchases to a carton of cigs.

Kiwidru wrote:But no one plays those alternate games. I havnt Ever seen a specialist game played in any store in the 20 years I've been in and out of Gw's and flgs's. (actually I remember seeing Space Hulk a couple of times in the 90's)

Yes they do.

Do you think the paltry dozen per store you see playing in them are enough, even worldwide, for GW to create a £130m business?

There's more people who play with friends and family in their homes than play at stores or tournaments.

I spent well over $600 on the Newcrons, and $395 went to 18 sepulcher stalker tomb king conversions so I could make my wraithwing. Now the new wraiths are out and 2" taller than the oop model. Doesnt mean Im done buying models, but my wraithwing is complete so have no reason to buy more for the army.

Even if you have a full time job, I have to set aside 1/4 of paycheck just to get a 5 man squad. If budgeted correctly, I could purchase probably 1000 points in a year. Thats not including hobby supplies or paint. I remember back in 5th grade when Rhinos were only $20....

I think its only fair to compare table top minature games to other table top mianture games.

A single game of RollsRoyce Helicoptor darts cost £130M ,Compared to £2000 for a set of minatures thats peanuts!
Humans can find amasing ways ro waste time and money...

Is GW plc overcharging for its products?
Lets look at last years fiscal statment.
GW plc has a Gross Margin of 76%.

That means they make 76% profit of every thing sold.BEFORE the costs of logistics and retail are taken out.

So that £18 box of minatures ,£4.32 covers the cost of ALL expences apart from moving the box to the B&M store and the cost of the B&M store.

Using the average costing of logistics , this price rises to about £5 to cover ALL costs apart from the retail cost.

So if the product was sold through independants shops and the internet, GW plc could sell thier £18 box sets for £9 and make £4 nett profit.

But GW plc support a chain of B&M stores, that cost them a fortune. So they only make £2,34 Net Profit from the sale of an £18 box of minatures .

Everyone is paying TWICE as much as they should to cover the costs of GW plcs B&M stores.
And GW plc is making about half as much profit.

Therfore GW plc are using an out of date buisness practice , thats costing them the lions share of thier profit, AND driving away more customers than it can currently attract.

As oposed to other comapnies that focus on game play to promote positive word of mouth and logevity of interest.Coupled with better value for money minatures.(Which sseem to be growing thier customer base, despite the recession that GW plc blames thier falling sales on....)

GW plc products are more expencive than they need to be because GW plc corperate managers are

Lt.Soundwave wrote:40k is cheaper then my videogame habit as well. One of roommates spends a substantial amount on cigarettes and compares his hobby purchases to a carton of cigs.

Aside from their unhealthiness cigarettes are an especially expensive way to spend your money, especially in the UK where the tax is so high on them. You can buy two packs of magic cards for a pack of fags. If you smoke a pack a day like most smokers then that's like smoking an entire booster box every 3 weeks. Or you could buy a box of GW stuff every week, or kit from Tamiya etc. Anyone who can afford to smoke can't really complain about being short of money for anything IMO.

-Loki- wrote:

Kiwidru wrote:But no one plays those alternate games. I havnt Ever seen a specialist game played in any store in the 20 years I've been in and out of Gw's and flgs's. (actually I remember seeing Space Hulk a couple of times in the 90's)

Yes they do.

Do you think the paltry dozen per store you see playing in them are enough, even worldwide, for GW to create a £130m business?

There's more people who play with friends and family in their homes than play at stores or tournaments.

Agreed, he must be going to the wrong stores!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Defeatmyarmy wrote:I spent well over $600 on the Newcrons, and $395 went to 18 sepulcher stalker tomb king conversions so I could make my wraithwing. Now the new wraiths are out and 2" taller than the oop model. Doesnt mean Im done buying models, but my wraithwing is complete so have no reason to buy more for the army.

Even if you have a full time job, I have to set aside 1/4 of paycheck just to get a 5 man squad. If budgeted correctly, I could purchase probably 1000 points in a year. Thats not including hobby supplies or paint. I remember back in 5th grade when Rhinos were only $20....

Nor should you have to buy the new wraiths.

Your practicing fiscal responsibility to support your army men habit. This is a positive trait. I wish the US government would do the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Lt.Soundwave wrote:40k is cheaper then my videogame habit as well. One of roommates spends a substantial amount on cigarettes and compares his hobby purchases to a carton of cigs.

Aside from their unhealthiness cigarettes are an especially expensive way to spend your money, especially in the UK where the tax is so high on them. You can buy two packs of magic cards for a pack of fags. If you smoke a pack a day like most smokers then that's like smoking an entire booster box every 3 weeks. Or you could buy a box of GW stuff every week, or kit from Tamiya etc. Anyone who can afford to smoke can't really complain about being short of money for anything IMO.

Additionally, once you smoke 'em, *poof* gone. Minions and cards could be in your possession forever and have resale value! Try to sell your butts!

Lanrak wrote:I think its only fair to compare table top minature games to other table top mianture games.

That depends. If you play multiple wargames, then yeah, compare away.....if you play, exclusively, GW products, then the next comparitive would be alternative hobbies.

People assume (and did so last year, me included) that you can simply drop GW games and pick up "what-ever" else is out there.....there are some great games out there, but noone does what GW does, to be honest it shows the complete lack of innovation in the wargaming hobby right now.....but I digress....

The bottom line is, for some people it's GW or nothing, and if they chose to move away from GW then they'll naturally seek alternative hobbies, in doing so they may quickly come to realise that, as a hobby, GW isn't THAT expensive.

Delephont wrote:Being one of the "many" who walked away from GW and it's products last year, actually gave me a more positive view of GW and it's products.

Yes there are down sides, cost being one of them, but...BUT, I have to say, for all the negativity, it is one of the BEST supported games out there. Sure it;s the most popular, but has anyone asked why that is? I know they've been around for a while, but is that really all there is to it? I doubt it. Anyone who's taken a trip to Warhammer World will see how much goes into the GW machine.

I'm not a GW fan, but considering the competition, I think they're actually not a bad bunch.

GW treat miniatures wargaming like a business....for some hobbyists, this is a negative approach. Well, I disagree, I think it's a better approach than alot of these "Johhny come lately" games developers, who want success but continually hide behind the excuse..."we're just a small company...blah, blah, blah".....no start up in any other industry uses their size as an excuse to producing half arsed products.....I'll give you an example:

MERCS Minis....great little game. Expandability, almost zero. Background: lacking. Miniature releases: seldom. Reasons, because the guys are doing the game development as a part time job!!!!!!!!

Yep, that's the alternative to GW, right there....amateurs. DOn't get me wrong, I admire the guys at MERCS, I really do, but I would hate if this model of productivity was the "norm" for the hobby.....my god, It would stagnate and be dead in months.

No one likes paying for their pleasures, but it's a simple fact of life. Unfortunately, ride the wild horse or walk home....thems the options.

You sir disappoint me to the extreme...

So many misjudgements lack of perspective and sense of scale that its sorry... ridiculous! I believe that you have not learned a damn thing about this industry with your short year break.

NAVARRO wrote:
You sir disappoint me to the extreme...

So many misjudgements lack of perspective and sense of scale that its sorry... ridiculous! I believe that you have not learned a damn thing about this industry with your short year break.

Fair enough, I guess.

Would you care to elaborate on what aspect or point in my statement you find....."ridiculous!"?

Delephont...Sure and sorry if I sound to harsh ok mate? But you opened this door...


"alot of these "Johhny come lately" games developers, who want success but continually hide behind the excuse..."we're just a small company...blah, blah, blah".....no start up in any other industry uses their size as an excuse to producing half arsed products.....I'll give you an example: MERCS"

"MERCS Minis....great little game. Expandability, almost zero. Background: lacking. Miniature releases: seldom. Reasons, because the guys are doing the game development as a part time job!!!!!!!!

Yep, that's the alternative to GW, right there....amateurs. DOn't get me wrong, I admire the guys at MERCS"

Lets start with your little example of these Johny come late amateurs with half harse products who hide on excuses because they do it part time that you say that errrrrr admire! Yeah right!

Facts
Mercs Miniatures started around the end of 2008 with 2 guys, 5 minis ( one faction) and 1 site in construction 3.5 years later they are still the same same guys and with the help of some freelancer painters etc they expanded their catalog to something like 36ish minis (6 factions) 6 starters, gaming cards decks, Published rulebook in full colour, battle foam bag, game mats and tokens, site with forum and nice original artwork... in 3.5 years.

What I call ridiculous.

Comparing these with GW and when they fall short of the multimillion mammoth that employs thousands? you call them amateurs... I don't know in what world you live but thats bonkers!
But I will indulge your mad alucinogenic trip and take some of those pills.

The amateurs have metal minis GW does not, the amateurs have a company forum and reply directly to clients GW don't, Their minis have quality control and their casts are not Finecasted holes of menure GW don't and their fine cast is Shat, these half harsed products from amateurs are painted BETTER than the heavy metal team ( giraldez anyone?), these amateurs take time and spend money going to gencons etc to present their products to the community and get involved with industry... GW does not, they let online stores have pics of their products and miniature design is Pro level and BETTER than many GW designs.

So Yess thats your competition right there, 2 guys, amateurs produce quality products in many departments better than GW...

Pills effect wearing off now.

You fail to understand how this industry moves and starts... You start small, some stay small and specialised others grow a bit and a rare few grow a lot... SIZE has nothing to do with professional product and if you look at small companies ( in comparison with GW) Hasslefree ( one guy) Heresy ( 1 guy ) Otherworld ( 1 guy and freelancers) Corvus belli ( 10 guys?) AOW ( 10 guys?) Mcvey (2 and freelancers) soda pop ( 2 or 3 fellas?) Mantic ( 5-10 guys?), soda pop, pulp city etc etc.... You put all of these small companies together in one bag and still not the thousand GW builted YET and this is a big YET can you say the sum of these all is inferior to GW? Amateurs? You either have not browsed or are totally clueless of what you speak.

I will not drag this but how do you think GW started (35 years of construction gave them a HUGE advantage )

For the most part its a mama and papa industry and glad it is ( I will not explain why i think its preferable this way here).

Bat Manuel wrote:Will you people please stop crying?

Miniature wargaming is one of the least expensive hobbies out there. Play Magic and you'll spend more in a year than you will on wargaming.

Scuba diving, paintball, skydiving, dirt biking, BMX, rock climbing, video games, etc. all cost as much or more than wargaming.

I think your big complaint is that you can't just play one thing/army and are 'forced' to keep buying so it seems expensive. It's not how expensive it is...it's how much you chose to spend on it.

Gotta catch 'em all Pikachu?

I agree 100%. I stopped playing paintball and sold my motorcycle so I could focus on wargaming. GW prices have nothing on those 2 hobbies combined.

NAVARRO wrote:Delephont...Sure and sorry if I sound to harsh ok mate? But you opened this door...


"alot of these "Johhny come lately" games developers, who want success but continually hide behind the excuse..."we're just a small company...blah, blah, blah".....no start up in any other industry uses their size as an excuse to producing half arsed products.....I'll give you an example: MERCS"

"MERCS Minis....great little game. Expandability, almost zero. Background: lacking. Miniature releases: seldom. Reasons, because the guys are doing the game development as a part time job!!!!!!!!

Yep, that's the alternative to GW, right there....amateurs. DOn't get me wrong, I admire the guys at MERCS"

Lets start with your little example of these Johny come late amateurs with half harse products who hide on excuses because they do it part time that you say that errrrrr admire! Yeah right!

Facts
Mercs Miniatures started around the end of 2008 with 2 guys, 5 minis ( one faction) and 1 site in construction 3.5 years later they are still the same same guys and with the help of some freelancer painters etc they expanded their catalog to something like 36ish minis (6 factions) 6 starters, gaming cards decks, Published rulebook in full colour, battle foam bag, game mats and tokens, site with forum and nice original artwork... in 3.5 years.

What I call ridiculous.

Comparing these with GW and when they fall short of the multimillion mammoth that employs thousands? you call them amateurs... I don't know in what world you live but thats bonkers!
But I will indulge your mad alucinogenic trip and take some of those pills.

The amateurs have metal minis GW does not, the amateurs have a company forum and reply directly to clients GW don't, Their minis have quality control and their casts are not Finecasted holes of menure GW don't and their fine cast is Shat, these half harsed products from amateurs are painted BETTER than the heavy metal team ( giraldez anyone?), these amateurs take time and spend money going to gencons etc to present their products to the community and get involved with industry... GW does not, they let online stores have pics of their products and miniature design is Pro level and BETTER than many GW designs.

So Yess thats your competition right there, 2 guys, amateurs produce quality products in many departments better than GW...

Pills effect wearing off now.

You fail to understand how this industry moves and starts... You start small, some stay small and specialised others grow a bit and a rare few grow a lot... SIZE has nothing to do with professional product and if you look at small companies ( in comparison with GW) Hasslefree ( one guy) Heresy ( 1 guy ) Otherworld ( 1 guy and freelancers) Corvus belli ( 10 guys?) AOW ( 10 guys?) Mcvey (2 and freelancers) soda pop ( 2 or 3 fellas?) Mantic ( 5-10 guys?), soda pop, pulp city etc etc.... You put all of these small companies together in one bag and still not the thousand GW builted YET and this is a big YET can you say the sum of these all is inferior to GW? Amateurs? You either have not browsed or are totally clueless of what you speak.

I will not drag this but how do you think GW started (35 years of construction gave them a HUGE advantage )

For the most part its a mama and papa industry and glad it is ( I will not explain why i think its preferable this way here).

You make a lot of valid points, and I don't really dispute any of them.

Perhaps I used some strong language in relation to MERCS as a company, and I wasn't really looking to run them, or any of the others down.....

The point I was really trying to make, is that someone coming from GW's products to something like MERCS will always be disappointed....now again, let me clarify that statement. If they're looking for a replacement to GW...I mean DIRECT replacement, then MERCS et al. won't come close....they can't, mostly due to the type of product and levels of investment of time and money the founders can put into their (Johny come lately..re: NEW) products.

Yes, GW has a huge advantage in terms of the time they have been operating, but even back in the day GW had big plans.....again, running a comparrison to MERCS, the guys behind it can't and prehaps won't even consider plans of that scale because it would mean taking a big risk, they could lose everything.....

One company that is kinda following in the same footsteps as GW (at least I think so) is CMON, they're like GW was back in the early days, and if you watch interviews with the founder, this guy has big plans....he talks a different language when compared to people like guys from MERCS, Infinity, etc....

Perhaps I was harsh when I said they "hide" behind the excuse that they are new, etc etc.....and I agree this is where time will tell. My gripe with these guys is that if you don't push for big things, they just won't (or will rarely) happen. Again, looking at MERCS, (and I add it's a great little game) but I can't see where they can take it....its too small. Great if you like small games, but as an alternative to WH40K?!?

Taking everything that's been said, and getting back on point.....this is where the price "issue" really comes into play. Because there are no alternatives (really) GW has a strangle hold on the market, from a business sense, why shouldn't they make hay while the sun shines, anybody else would. The "competition" seems humble in attitude when compared with GW becuase they have to be, even the super friendly guys at Infinity would be crazy not to capitalise on a situation that GW has if they had the chance.

Having looked around at the alternatives, I think GW gives you relatively good value for money, providing you're willing to pay it. You get a rich background, not always the best written, but damn, it's there, artwork that helps build the galaxy beyond the gaming table, dozens of spin off products that give you opportunites to enjoy the 40K and Fantasy universes beyond the gaming table, for example RPG, Computer games, comics....and when you look at the fan base and fan generated ancilleries (DakkaDakka anyone)...my god, that's a lot of bang for your buck.

Sure MERCS has a forum, I'd argue that GW has hundreds of the things.....we're on one right now, and in some ways these forums are even better than the company own forums....you can come on here and praise or hate GW, try posting something negative on the MERCS forum....I dare you! Try being critical of Infinity on their forum? Think you'll get a balanced response?