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Leth wrote:I see your Crowe against a unit of flayed ones and raise you 4 lancetek wounds to the face.

Thats a problem that pretty much any horde unit faces as well. Its not really unique to FOs or necrons...

EDIT to add: Im talking about crowe taking out the horde of FOs easy...seems I quoted the wrong person...

schadenfreude wrote:Why I'm not a fan of the 20 block, let's start with GK

Crowe alone versus 20 FO + Dlord

Crowe positions goes into shield of blades defensive stance forgoing all attacks to reroll his 2+/4++ saves. His blade rends on a 4+, which means when it auto wounds from mind shackle scarabs it's not a rend and Crowe gets a 2+ with a reroll for his save. The Dlord and FO won't do much to Crowe while he has shielf of blades up.

Math hammer FO V Crowe 1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/6 fail armor save 1/6 fail re roll to armor save= 1/144 attacks do a wound to Crowe while shield of blades is up.

Crowe does purifying flames dropping 10 wound and 5 unsaved wounds against the FO.

About a 50/50 chance that Crowe does 2 wounds to himself from mind shackle, non rending, each with a 1/36 chance of him failing his armor save, so it's pretty much the same as 4 FO attacks.

15 FO with 4A each + the equivalent of 4 more from MS for 66 attacks each with a 1/144 chance of wounding Crowe=0.46 wounds

Dlord 4A 1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/2 fail invo 1/2 fail re roll to invo=20/48= 0.41 wounds

Grand total for Combat resolution
Crowe generated 5 wounds
FO +Dlord generated 0.97 wounds round up to 1
Crowe wins by 4 wounds
400+ points of necrons now have a 58.3% chance of breaking, being denied RP, and being run down by Crowe who has an I6.

There are a few minor issues with your calculations here.
Crowe can still rend himself, with his blade, as MSS auto-hits, you still have to roll to wound.
The Dlord also has Preferred enemy, so he should hit on 2/3rds of his attacks.

Nothing to really swing it in the Necrons favor, but enough to make a small difference.

While a bit off on a tangent, I wonder what the Order of precedence is between MSS/CF/Perfect Warrior. Do they all go off at the same time, since they share almost the exact same wording? Maybe something for YMDC.

I would say that they all begin at the same time, however one of them might say at the start of the assault phase, and another might say before the model attacks. Dont have the grey knights book anymore to say for sure though

A Destroyer Lord is fearless.

They are an anti infantry unit in an army that has tons of it. Immortals and Warriors are also good at killing infantry and they score.

You HAVE to take Immortals/Warriors and they CANNOT take anti vehicle firepower (unless you put Destruckteks with them). This means you have to take a bunch of stuff that kills light infantry. Why would you take even more stuff that kills light infantry? How many lists these days even put down that many targets? Most armies consists of space marines in rhinos/razorbacks/landraiders.

20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord. On the charge, they will unload with sixty attacks. Let's say two thirds hit, so forty, then I get to reroll ten ones and two thirds of those hit, so forty six to seven potential wounds. Roughly seven or eight will be rending hits and wound regardless so that's seven or eight flayed ones down straight away. I'd say about thirty to twenty eight would wound with toxin sacs after subtracting the rending hits. Let's say only fifteen to fourteen get by the armour save.

This means in one round I have at worst killed twenty one flayed ones, at best twenty three. Six flayed ones stand back up, deal eighteen attacks, of which only six hit, only three wound, and only two get by the armour save. You've lost combat by nineteen to twenty one and your remaining flayed ones are probably going to be chased off the table.

Of course, Lychguard and Praetorians would also be cut down by 20 tricked out genestealers. Heck, outside of a royal court disco inferno or wraiths there really isn't much in the Necron Codex that will survive a super stealer brood charge. Of course, I probably should be thankful that Anrakyr and Szeras can't buff Lychguards.

Really, flayed ones should be in the troops section, canon fodder units in the elites section is kind of odd, and they wouldn't be competing with Lychguards, Deathmarks, and Triarch Stalkers. They should also count as having two close combat weapons to get four attacks and get rending or perhaps reroll to hit or wound, then I think more people would use them.

Really, pretty much every Necron player I've met would rather take Lychguards and Triarch Stalkers for their Elites section, and maybe Deathmarks if they don't expect many vehicles coming their way.

-666- wrote:A Destroyer Lord is fearless.

No he is not. Check your codex again...

Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

Ill hop on vassal and roll right now and tell you the results. So the lightning field? 7 str 8 hits. down to 13. Now lets do the MSS. 10 rolls, at ld 10. 5 lol halfsies. Ok, so now you are attacking me with 8 genestealers. Lets split the attacks, 4 on one squad, 4 on the other. Overall toughness 5. 1 wound on one, one rend and a wound on the other. my saves, all on lords. first group saves, second group fails a rend. 4 lords left. Now your attacks on yourselves. Forgot to roll the d3 apiece, so ill do that now. 9 attacks on yourself from 5 guys. Thats 5 wounds and a rending wound so six total. One bites it, leaving twelve, and now your 5+ saves. 3 saves, 2 dead. So, so far its your 10 dead vs my 1 dead. Now my rolls, 9 lords. 2 power wounds, and none from the clownteks. so you are down 12 to my one. Leadership test, you need double 1's to continue....

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

-666- wrote:A Destroyer Lord is fearless.

No, he's not.

Basimpo wrote:Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

Ill hop on vassal and roll right now and tell you the results. So the lightning field? 7 str 8 hits. down to 13. Now lets do the MSS. 10 rolls, at ld 10. 5 lol halfsies. Ok, so now you are attacking me with 8 genestealers. Lets split the attacks, 4 on one squad, 4 on the other. Overall toughness 5. 1 wound on one, one rend and a wound on the other. my saves, all on lords. first group saves, second group fails a rend. 4 lords left. Now your attacks on yourselves. Forgot to roll the d3 apiece, so ill do that now. 9 attacks on yourself from 5 guys. Thats 5 wounds and a rending wound so six total. One bites it, leaving twelve, and now your 5+ saves. 3 saves, 2 dead. So, so far its your 10 dead vs my 1 dead. Now my rolls, 9 lords. 2 power wounds, and none from the clownteks. so you are down 12 to my one. Leadership test, you need double 1's to continue....

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

Silly post. His point is a good one because Genestealers are comparable in both price and function to Flayed Ones. 14 pts vs 13 pts for infiltrating CC units. The Genestealers cost 1 pt more a model, thats it. How much more did your squad cost? And you multi-assaulted. Get real. If you want to prove a point you need to do a much better job of it. Anyway, let's look at their profiles:

Flayed One: WS4, STR4, T4, I2, LD10, A3, 4+
Genestealer: WS6, STR4, T4, I6, LD10, A2, 5+

The Flayed Ones have infiltrate and reanimation protocols.
The Genestealers have infiltrate, fleet, move through cover, can score AND rend.

I think comparing the two units is worthwhile. If they fulfilled different roles I'd agree that comparing them is faulty, however they both serve the same purpose and the Genestealers are HEAD and SHOULDERS above the Flayed Ones in essentially every way. The FO's have more durability but a good player will almost always have his Genestealers in cover, they are also incredibly easy to give FNP to WITHOUT gimping the rest of the army. Genestealers are the perfect example of why I think Flayed Ones are almost completely worthless. Necron players don't need extra anti-infantry as the Wraiths EXCEL at that function.

If FO's were troops they could be passable (partially because Cron troops are underwhelming as a whole) but as an Elites choice they are very, very poor. I could care less that the rest of the Elites choices are sub-par. There are plenty of codexes that make little to no use of certain FOC. GK's rarely take fast attack. SW's rarely take fast attack. IG doesn't generally use elites anymore. Just because Elites are available doesn't mean you HAVE to take them. There should always be more efficient and better ways to spend left-over points.

LValx wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

<more example>.

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

Silly post. His point is a good one because Genestealers are comparable in both price and function to Flayed Ones. 14 pts vs 13 pts for infiltrating CC units. The Genestealers cost 1 pt more a model, thats it. How much more did your squad cost? And you multi-assaulted. Get real. If you want to prove a point you need to do a much better job of it. Anyway, let's look at their profiles:

<more comparison>. Genestealers are the perfect example of why I think Flayed Ones are almost completely worthless.

Actually not a silly post at all. Absolutely correct and as relevant as your comparison to grey hunters earlier. Again, imho, comparisons to other units in other codexes are not relevant.

Let's turn the example around. Say we are talking about why genestealers are good, and people are saying they are not because they are comparing to 2 groups of 5 Necron Lords which take them down routinely. Are you suggesting that genestealers are worthless because of that? Tell you what, find ANY unit that will take consistently win CC against the Court and we'll all agree that that unit is good and all others are worthless.

Btw, please don't say that it isn't a valid comparison because no one fields 2 Courts. Let's just agree that atm most tournament lists haven't got around to including them.....just like Flayed Ones

LValx wrote:If FO's were troops they could be passable (partially because Cron troops are underwhelming as a whole) but as an Elites choice they are very, very poor. I could care less that the rest of the Elites choices are sub-par.

So apparently you are not a necron player then.

LValx wrote: There are plenty of codexes that make little to no use of certain FOC. GK's rarely take fast attack. SW's rarely take fast attack. IG doesn't generally use elites anymore. Just because Elites are available doesn't mean you HAVE to take them. There should always be more efficient and better ways to spend left-over points.

I'm happy that the Necron codex gives me at least a modicum of CC ability in 2 slots. GW , in their infinite wisdom, chose to put wraiths in the FA slot with a load of other good stuff - I can only assume that was to ensure that good players had to work harder to balance their CC capability, particularly as troops are poor at it. So GOOD generals do have a choice which allows them to have a scarab farm and CC. (see what I did there?

Flayed Ones aren't worthless, imho. They require an experienced general and a specific strategy which means you have to know what you are doing to use them. They are exactly the same as D&D combos in this regard.

As an aside, you imagine the reaction if GW swapped wraiths and flayed one positions in the FoC? Literally anyone could put together a Necron list that would take out everything. I mean you'd have to work really hard to come up with a losing list.

MarkCron wrote:

LValx wrote:

Basimpo wrote:Well, seeing as were going on and on about some of the best units vs poor little old flayed ones...lets bring some heavy hitting necrons to the table...

20 genestealers meet two un attached royal courts, with each with 5 fully kitted out lords thats warscythe, res orb, semi weave, and MSS and the everything else that matters

so, thats 2 squads of str7 init 2, ws4 attacks 2, 2+/3++ guys. Also, we'll throw in each court a harbinger of the storm equipped with the lightning field, each with a destrucktek armed with a gaze of flame, and just for hecks sake, each with a chrono tek with the chronotron.

Also, we'll field them meshed together. Yes they cant join in one big blob, but you can arrange them so multi assault is a near must rather than a not must.

my 16 guys vs your 20 genestealers. We'll give you the assault. So, thats 2d6 str 8 ap 5 wounds right off the bat. No extra attacks for you because of my nades, and now lets resolve the MSS. Lets say we bandersnatch half our lords numbers in genies. How many does that leave you with?

<more example>.

Do you see where im going? I mean, if i throw the fiercest thing in my army against your something, Uh, i might knock it down. In this example we turned your touted genestealers into virtual flayed ones (wiped them or atleast fled them in 1 round of assault)


Once again, i think its supposed to be a flayed ones vs necron units comparison, not a What Would Calgar Do type deal. Or even Oh yeah! My LR vs your flayed ones hmmmm!

Silly post. His point is a good one because Genestealers are comparable in both price and function to Flayed Ones. 14 pts vs 13 pts for infiltrating CC units. The Genestealers cost 1 pt more a model, thats it. How much more did your squad cost? And you multi-assaulted. Get real. If you want to prove a point you need to do a much better job of it. Anyway, let's look at their profiles:

<more comparison>. Genestealers are the perfect example of why I think Flayed Ones are almost completely worthless.

Actually not a silly post at all. Absolutely correct and as relevant as your comparison to grey hunters earlier. Again, imho, comparisons to other units in other codexes are not relevant.

Let's turn the example around. Say we are talking about why genestealers are good, and people are saying they are not because they are comparing to 2 groups of 5 Necron Lords which take them down routinely. Are you suggesting that genestealers are worthless because of that? Tell you what, find ANY unit that will take consistently win CC against the Court and we'll all agree that that unit is good and all others are worthless.

Btw, please don't say that it isn't a valid comparison because no one fields 2 Courts. Let's just agree that atm most tournament lists haven't got around to including them.....just like Flayed Ones

LValx wrote:If FO's were troops they could be passable (partially because Cron troops are underwhelming as a whole) but as an Elites choice they are very, very poor. I could care less that the rest of the Elites choices are sub-par.

So apparently you are not a necron player then.

LValx wrote: There are plenty of codexes that make little to no use of certain FOC. GK's rarely take fast attack. SW's rarely take fast attack. IG doesn't generally use elites anymore. Just because Elites are available doesn't mean you HAVE to take them. There should always be more efficient and better ways to spend left-over points.

I'm happy that the Necron codex gives me at least a modicum of CC ability in 2 slots. GW , in their infinite wisdom, chose to put wraiths in the FA slot with a load of other good stuff - I can only assume that was to ensure that good players had to work harder to balance their CC capability, particularly as troops are poor at it. So GOOD generals do have a choice which allows them to have a scarab farm and CC. (see what I did there?

Flayed Ones aren't worthless, imho. They require an experienced general and a specific strategy which means you have to know what you are doing to use them. They are exactly the same as D&D combos in this regard.

As an aside, you imagine the reaction if GW swapped wraiths and flayed one positions in the FoC? Literally anyone could put together a Necron list that would take out everything. I mean you'd have to work really hard to come up with a losing list.

The Court comparison is awful because that court would cost at least twice as much as the 20 man genestealer brick. The GH comparison was far more palatable because it was a comparison of EQUAL points. I wont sit here and compare FO's to 1000 pts worth of TWC because that would be incredibly faulty. But I damn well will compare them to similarly costed units that perform similar roles.

Yeah, the court thing is over the top. The proper thing to say though, is "hey, against a dedicated CC army like Tyranids, that extra CC power isn't going to help as much as the firepower troop unit you're replacing." The Nids are going to out-CC even our top notch dedicated CC units, and their mid-tier ones are going to be much better than our mid tier ones. That's just the way it is.

And honestly, I'm not even sure I'd call Genestealers mid-tier. They're good even in a good CC list.

Hmmm, so it's bad to compare to alternatives that are IN the Codex and which a Necron player might be able to take, but OK to compare to a unit which the Necron player can NEVER take.

The court example is only "awful" because you are comparing on a single unit basis. Sure, it is a lot of points, but that Royal Court disco will take out multiple units (say multiple bricks of genestealers). So, it is a valid question for the NECRON player who doesn't have genestealers.

Maybe the difference is in the context in which the op stated the original argument. He stated, quite concisely, why Flayed Ones are good i.e. their advantages. For me, the whole point of the thread is that it was targeted at NECRON players who currently dismiss them because of what they read on the internet (hence the tongue in cheek reference to "and YOU are bad").

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Before this thread, FO were probably not even in this equation. Thought process was "hmmm.. FA slots full, need some CC - get immortals and buff with crypteks".

As a number of people have said, FO can situationally and tactically hold their own against various other units for long enough for it to make a difference in the game. To me, that makes them "good" enough to warrant consideration - as opposed to dismissing them on the basis they are worse than genestealers/grey hunters/termies/<insert your favourite CC unit here>.

Also I am a fan of trying to outflank them, but then again maybe in a month when we see how things have changed we might all be talking about it differently. It really only takes a change to one of the rules they have access to to make them pretty good.

Lol I was trying to point out what its like to bring just random stuff to the necron table that doesnt really matter.

For example, if you truly believe that the point to point comparison is valid, then lets take a look at 20 FOs (260 points) vs a Landraider (about 240 points)...Hm, i think the FOs will overpower it just based on the points...

Really, if your NECRON army isnt based around lance teks who want a twinlinking wondertwin powers given from Stalkers, then the flayed ones popping in to distract your opponent while you run your ten squad of warscythe/sword and shield lychguard across the board is a good idea.

I loooove my lychguard. Anything that doesnt make them a bullseye makes me happy. I have nooo problem sacrificing lesser units like flayed ones to the grinder if i can get my lychguard into CC.

Another thing, I dont play to maintain 100% of my troops. I usually designate "sacrificial" troops. The flayed ones would be the ultimate sacrificial troops. I mean, come on, they deepstrike 6 inches infront of someone? Id be irritated enough to shoot them.

I kinda think that Daemons and DSers in general will get a nice little boost in the next edition, being able to assault from DS. Of course, this doesnt turn them into meat grinders, but now instead of choosing whether you want to spend your next turns firepower on them or not, I ds in, and assault, and hopefully hold out that turn. Effectively your units turn of shooting wasted. Yes, there are risks, they arnt fearless, but thats been beat to death earlier, and i hate math hammer anyway. Its more about randomization and luck for me anyday over Hm, well, ill roll 58.65343% of 7s

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Sure, Necrons can't take Genestealers and Grey Hunters, but Necron players will be facing off against these things occasionally. Flayed Ones ONLY ability is to threaten general infantry units. Genestealers and Grey Hunters are the type of unit that Flayed Ones must go after. Sadly, those units are far more efficient, have duality, and encompass similar battlefield roles as Flayed Ones, just in a different armies.

If a Necron player wants to compete with armies that are taking more efficient and hands down better units, they need to in turn stick with the better units in their codex. In this case, if I want close combat I take Wraiths and Scarabs. In my 2k Necron list I have 2 units of 6 allocated Wraiths at 245 points per unit and 7 Scarab bases at 105 points. Which means that around 600 points of my army is dedicated to close combat. Additionally, these units are fast and have the ability to preform multiple roles of the battlefield, something Flayed Ones cannot.

Would I take 15 Flayed Ones over 11 Immortals, or 5 Immortals in a Night Scythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Wraiths, Scarabs, or Tomb Blades? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Annihilation Barges, Spyders, or even a Doomscythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a CCB or adding Crypteks? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a Stalker? Absolutely not.

I can make an completely competitive Necron force from the above units and regularly do. I have never felt that I was lacking what the Flayed Ones could bring to the table. Not once. The reason is that even if I can use them as some sort of flanking strike, they lack the ability to threaten armor, and armor is everywhere. So, they reach my opponent and get a few glances if I'm lucky.

Flayed Ones are bad in comparison to similar units in other armies and commonly seen units in other armies. They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality. They aren't fearless, so if they lose combat, they are afraid. They aren't a top 3 close combat unit in their own codex. The best thing you can say about them is that they debatably the second best Elites choice in the Cron dex. That's like saying Raptors are the best fast attack choice for Chaos Space Marines. It doesn't make you good, just better than other bad things.

To the OP:

This is amazing, Running an all CC-Wraithwing/ Spyders army, a good saving grace for one turn may be a 65 point distraction that are flayed ones.

JGrand wrote:

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Sure, Necrons can't take Genestealers and Grey Hunters, but Necron players will be facing off against these things occasionally. Flayed Ones ONLY ability is to threaten general infantry units. Genestealers and Grey Hunters are the type of unit that Flayed Ones must go after. Sadly, those units are far more efficient, have duality, and encompass similar battlefield roles as Flayed Ones, just in a different armies.

If a Necron player wants to compete with armies that are taking more efficient and hands down better units, they need to in turn stick with the better units in their codex. In this case, if I want close combat I take Wraiths and Scarabs. In my 2k Necron list I have 2 units of 6 allocated Wraiths at 245 points per unit and 7 Scarab bases at 105 points. Which means that around 600 points of my army is dedicated to close combat. Additionally, these units are fast and have the ability to preform multiple roles of the battlefield, something Flayed Ones cannot.

Would I take 15 Flayed Ones over 11 Immortals, or 5 Immortals in a Night Scythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Wraiths, Scarabs, or Tomb Blades? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Annihilation Barges, Spyders, or even a Doomscythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a CCB or adding Crypteks? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a Stalker? Absolutely not.

I can make an completely competitive Necron force from the above units and regularly do. I have never felt that I was lacking what the Flayed Ones could bring to the table. Not once. The reason is that even if I can use them as some sort of flanking strike, they lack the ability to threaten armor, and armor is everywhere. So, they reach my opponent and get a few glances if I'm lucky.

Flayed Ones are bad in comparison to similar units in other armies and commonly seen units in other armies. They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality. They aren't fearless, so if they lose combat, they are afraid. They aren't a top 3 close combat unit in their own codex. The best thing you can say about them is that they debatably the second best Elites choice in the Cron dex. That's like saying Raptors are the best fast attack choice for Chaos Space Marines. It doesn't make you good, just better than other bad things.

I suppose next you are going to tell me wraith lords are crap, as are tyranids and monoliths. What you are forgetting is that not everything is numbers on paper, The way you play and use them is what really determines their worth. I could see myself playing a list with them, some people could not and that is fine. I regularly won with a tyranids warrior based list I think monoliths are good as long as you remember they are different than they used to be. Wraithlords were in the "gakky" footdar list

I suppose next you are going to tell me wraith lords are crap, as are tyranids and monoliths. What you are forgetting is that not everything is numbers on paper, The way you play and use them is what really determines their worth. I could see myself playing a list with them, some people could not and that is fine. I regularly won with a tyranids warrior based list I think monoliths are good as long as you remember they are different than they used to be. Wraithlords were in the "gakky" footdar list

Wow. The guy explained himself in as simple terms as its humanly possible and yet you didn't get anything he said. We understand that you like playing with points inefficient units and bad armies but don't even try to claim that just because you can use garbage against garbage the other options wouldn't still be a lot better. If you want to make this a discussion about why we all should use garbage in our armies I think you should make a new thread. It'll no doubt be an interesting read.

JGrand wrote:

Over the course of the thread, it's clear that there are some generals and some circumstances where FO could be good, in terms of the balance they can bring to the NECRON list - which, after all, is the whole point of combining units in the first place.

In this context (i.e. building a Necron list), comparisons to other units in other Codexes are irrelevant. Sure, they may not be as points efficient as genestealers or grey hunters, but when you can't choose those because they are not in the codex, its not relevant. In this case it is a trade off between wraiths, FO and something else (court disco).

Sure, Necrons can't take Genestealers and Grey Hunters, but Necron players will be facing off against these things occasionally. Flayed Ones ONLY ability is to threaten general infantry units. Genestealers and Grey Hunters are the type of unit that Flayed Ones must go after. Sadly, those units are far more efficient, have duality, and encompass similar battlefield roles as Flayed Ones, just in a different armies.

Wat? Apparently I wasn't clear about the role of generalship. The OP listed the advantages of the flayed ones which included the ability to DS without scatter, infiltrate and outflank. Now as a general, you can ignore these advantages and you can choose to send inferior units against superior ones if you wish. That's your call as a general. However, dissing the unit for losing is a bit harsh.

As a Necron general, why would you EVER want to assault genestealers, Termies, or specialist CC units with anything other than wraiths, a royal court disco or (maybe) Lychguard? I suppose if you wanted to tarpit them for a turn you could use some troops? Far more effective to stand back and blast them with Tesla, they'll fail eventually. However, taking out devastators, long fangs etc, tying up HQ units for the first couple of turns- well, that is a perfect use for FO.

JGrand wrote:
If a Necron player wants to compete with armies that are taking more efficient and hands down better units, they need to in turn stick with the better units in their codex. In this case, if I want close combat I take Wraiths and Scarabs. In my 2k Necron list I have 2 units of 6 allocated Wraiths at 245 points per unit and 7 Scarab bases at 105 points. Which means that around 600 points of my army is dedicated to close combat. Additionally, these units are fast and have the ability to preform multiple roles of the battlefield, something Flayed Ones cannot.

Would I take 15 Flayed Ones over 11 Immortals, or 5 Immortals in a Night Scythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Wraiths, Scarabs, or Tomb Blades? Absolutely not. Would I take them over Annihilation Barges, Spyders, or even a Doomscythe? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a CCB or adding Crypteks? Absolutely not. Would I take them over a Stalker? Absolutely not.

I can make an completely competitive Necron force from the above units and regularly do. I have never felt that I was lacking what the Flayed Ones could bring to the table. Not once. The reason is that even if I can use them as some sort of flanking strike, they lack the ability to threaten armor, and armor is everywhere. So, they reach my opponent and get a few glances if I'm lucky.

Fair enough. I agree, you can make a perfectly competitive list without them. Equally, depending on your play style, you could make a competitive list with them. With any list it comes down to how you play the list in the game. I totally disagree that you have to have the most points efficient units in the Codex in order to be competitive. What you do have to have is the most points efficient units to execute your strategy.

For example if you want the advantages of a D&D combo (which uses up a VeilTek, scatters) then there is a case for using Flayed ones instead. You don't need 20 to take out long fangs or devastators. So, you can save the veilteks for immortals, courts, etc or swap for more lanceteks. However, this is only valid if your strategy includes a plan to take out the opponents heavy non mech weapons while you have created darkness with your pulse. So, as I said earlier, they can be good depending on generalship, play style and situational/tactical use.

JGrand wrote:Flayed Ones are bad in comparison to similar units in other armies and commonly seen units in other armies. They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality. They aren't fearless, so if they lose combat, they are afraid. They aren't a top 3 close combat unit in their own codex. The best thing you can say about them is that they debatably the second best Elites choice in the Cron dex. That's like saying Raptors are the best fast attack choice for Chaos Space Marines. It doesn't make you good, just better than other bad things.

Agree. They have some failings compared to units in other armies. So are warriors. So's a ghost ark. So's a Scythe. But people still build lists with them because they have few choices and they know how to use them effectively. Why single out Flayed Ones as bad?

Therion wrote:
Wow. The guy explained himself in as simple terms as its humanly possible and yet you didn't get anything he said. We understand that you like playing with points inefficient units and bad armies but don't even try to claim that just because you can use garbage against garbage the other options wouldn't still be a lot better. If you want to make this a discussion about why we all should use garbage in our armies I think you should make a new thread. It'll no doubt be an interesting read.

Actually, I'd suggest that he didn't get what I said. People's opinions that FO are bad, built on the basis that they play a slightly modified wraithwing and don't see a need for DS, infiltrate or outflank, are exactly the issue here.
Does not playing FO make you a bad general? No.
Does not considering FO when you have a need for DS/Infiltrate/Outflank make you a bad general? Yep. Consider them and then choose not to use them, fine. But don't write them off just because they don't fit your playstyle or the interweb says they are bad.

They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality

This. Is. Just. Wrong.

15 Flayed Ones average 1.67, 5, or 10 glances against a vehicle depending on speed.

So they have a potential to inflict 10 glances.

10! So that's an average of 3 to 4 Damage/Immobilzed results. Enough to kill, or critically disable, most transports. (And likely kill the inhabitants if you can get it properly surrounded).

With an army filled to the brim with Gauss are you telling me you don't have the foresight to pre-stun a vehicle the turn before Flayed Ones get to it?

So, in their least nominal roll, if used competently, they can still kill 95% of the vehicles in the game.

So please, stop repeating this completely inaccurate meme.

Warriors are a troop choice, and the only one that can take a transport IIRC. Consequently people take them through lack of choice (like tactical squads).

Flayed ones are like assault squads. You have other options.


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ShadarLogoth wrote:

They can't threaten armor in TankHammer 40k. They have no duality

This. Is. Just. Wrong.

15 Flayed Ones average 1.67, 5, or 10 glances against a vehicle depending on speed.

So they have a potential to inflict 10 glances.

10! So that's an average of 3 to 4 Damage/Immobilzed results. Enough to kill, or critically disable, most transports. (And likely kill the inhabitants if you can get it properly surrounded).

With an army filled to the brim with Gauss are you telling me you don't have the foresight to pre-stun a vehicle the turn before Flayed Ones get to it?

So, in their least nominal roll, if used competently, they can still kill 95% of the vehicles in the game.

So please, stop repeating this completely inaccurate meme.

If his transport is stationary then it's probably already dead. Tactical marines get krak grenades, which can actually penetrate rear armour 10, and yet you don't see people advocating that as a regular tactic.

Glancing hits are not something to "threaten" armour. They are an attack of last resort when the real weapons have failed.

I find glancing hits as effective a tactic as a shot by a "real" weapon. If the vehicle can't shoot and can't move - it's dead.

Particularly early in the game, when playing against mech armies who are "safe" in their vehicles, I'll quite happily try and glance them enough so that the people inside have to get out.

Blowing them up is nice, but really I just want them to stop moving and shooting.

This. Is. Just. Wrong.

15 Flayed Ones average 1.67, 5, or 10 glances against a vehicle depending on speed.

So they have a potential to inflict 10 glances.

10! So that's an average of 3 to 4 Damage/Immobilzed results. Enough to kill, or critically disable, most transports. (And likely kill the inhabitants if you can get it properly surrounded).

With an army filled to the brim with Gauss are you telling me you don't have the foresight to pre-stun a vehicle the turn before Flayed Ones get to it?

So, in their least nominal roll, if used competently, they can still kill 95% of the vehicles in the game.

So please, stop repeating this completely inaccurate meme.

Against vehicles that move 6" and if you can get everyone in combat, sure. Transports and fast vehicles are always going to be moving 12" or more, so you average less than 2 glances there. Pre Stunning does nothing btw. You need to have it immobilized to auto hit it. Also, Flayed Ones that are infiltrating are reaching enemy lines before you generally have a chance to stun. Additonally, Grey Knights are extremely prevalent. Stunning is meaningless. Crons are extremely prevalent. You can't even glance them. Finally, if you are hit by a Drednaught or walker, you lose.

I don't see much of a reason to debate this. Flayed Ones are not an efficient unit in a competitive setting. Then again, I seem to remember you arguing for just about every other Necron unit that people think are garbage, including the indefensible Praetorians. You have had ample opportunity to either provide a list that incorporates Flayed Ones, play on vassal against someone who challenged you to prove their use, or just go to a major event and make some battle reps. You can argue that I'm looking at Flayed Ones all wrong, but as the person going against both conventional theory and mathmatical examples, the burden of proof falls on you. Until you plan on doing the above, I'm not inclined to listen, especially when you want to claim that you can't compare Flayed Ones point for point against the different units that a. fulfill similar roles in other armies and b. do those roles and others far better.

If his transport is stationary then it's probably already dead. Tactical marines get krak grenades, which can actually penetrate rear armour 10, and yet you don't see people advocating that as a regular tactic.

Glancing hits are not something to "threaten" armour. They are an attack of last resort when the real weapons have failed.

First, not if it's stationary because of one unit of warriors glancing it. Then it's just stationary.

Tactical Marines, or any Space Marines, aren't in an army with several hundred Gauss Shots where creating the conditions necessary to be favorable are likely, so the comparison is dubious at best. That being said, 10 kraks will average about 3 Pens and a Glance, the net result will be about the same as 10 Glances (ie a severally disabled or dead vehicle).

And your last 2 statements are just false. I don't care if Stephen Hawking thinks that, its false, as the math clearly demonstrates.


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JGrand wrote:Against vehicles that move 6" and if you can get everyone in combat, sure. Transports and fast vehicles are always going to be moving 12" or more, so you average less than 2 glances there. Pre Stunning does nothing btw. You need to have it immobilized to auto hit it. Also, Flayed Ones that are infiltrating are reaching enemy lines before you generally have a chance to stun.

If the Vehicle was stunned the previous turn, as I clearly stated already, the net result is the same, the vehicle didn't move this turn. Infiltrators take two turns to hit the enemy lines, so... stun the vehicles closeset to them turn one...and on turn two....(surely you can see where this is going right?)

Additonally, Grey Knights are extremely prevalent. Stunning is meaningless. Crons are extremely prevalent. You can't even glance them. Finally, if you are hit by a Drednaught or walker, you lose.

You are also going to be dealing with a lot less vehicles in both of those cases, so Flayed Ones will be in their least nominal roll less often. Every Dreadnought I've ever seen GKs run I would GLADLY send my Flayed Ones against. The fact that you can's see the obvious tactical reason for doing so speaks volumes.

I don't see much of a reason to debate this. Flayed Ones are not an efficient unit in a competitive setting. Then again, I seem to remember you arguing for just about every other Necron unit that people think are garbage, including the indefensible Praetorians.

Yeah, you're right, I'm not a sheep. I use both units, to this day, with regular effectiveness (as they both synergize particularly well with a Res Orbed DLord). (And funny you should mention the TPs, FOs are bad because they "can't threaten Vehicles" however TPs, which are point for point better against vehicles then Wraiths, are still bad because...? Constantly moving them goal posts...)

You have had ample opportunity to either provide a list that incorporates Flayed Ones, play on vassal against someone who challenged you to prove their use, or just go to a major event and make some battle reps.

What does that have to do with the validity of the argument, and we both know that even if I did you would remain skeptical. Large chunks of the netlisters still poopoo Angry Earth after it won a major tournament. The fact is, even if I wrote up a Battle Rep of every game I've used them in and demonstrated how they were a key player in the game you would respond that my opponents were bad, or I had lucky dice, or the terain was perfect for me and not them...etc

You can argue that I'm looking at Flayed Ones all wrong, but as the person going against both conventional theory and mathmatical examples, the burden of proof falls on you.

Mathmatical Examples eh? Most mathematical examples have clearly demonstrated that it largely comes down to who gets the charge. This is by and large the rule for most troop based CC units in the game. There are hard CC counters for sure, but the units with hard CC counters have hard CC counters of their own. This proves absolutely nothing. The critical question is can they be effective against most of the units they encounter. Considering the preponderance of Shoot First units in the game I would say this is obiviously a yes.

Until you plan on doing the above, I'm not inclined to listen, especially when you want to claim that you can't compare Flayed Ones point for point against the different units that a. fulfill similar roles in other armies and b. do those roles and others far better.

That's certainly your prerogrative. You're not my target audience. You always carbon copy the loudest prevalent meme currently available on the interwebs. The fact that you think I must show that they "do those roles and others far better" clearly demonstrates this. Your burden of proof for Flayed Ones is irrationally high. Why must they do anything far better then something that is not even in their respective Codex? They fill the same roll as Orc Commandos, Genestealers, Mandrakes, etc. Not shockingly a roll that many netlister don't even consider a viable roll in the first place. Of that list I would posit only the Genestealers are better at that roll, however not completely, as FOs are significantly more durable, and have access to 4 or 5 turns of Night Fighting (compounding the durability chasm).

JGrand wrote:
I don't see much of a reason to debate this. Flayed Ones are not an efficient unit in a competitive setting.

I see. Not efficient. So, as the most efficient unit is wraiths (as an example), everyone who doesn't have a wraithwing is being inefficient? Surely, you have to agree that some army lists and strategies don't use purely what the interweb sees as the most efficient? Or are these "inefficient" units only included because there are spare points to use up?

I, for one, am certainly not trying to argue that FO are the best unit in the codex. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of efficiency you keep raising seems to overlook the synergy of a unit taken as a whole with the rest of the list and the initial strategy of how you are going to play it. As I said earlier, imho, you have to take units which have the best efficiency within the list to execute the strategy you have - these aren't always going to be the most "efficient" units on a standalone basis.

JGrand wrote:You can argue that I'm looking at Flayed Ones all wrong, but as the person going against both conventional theory and mathmatical examples, the burden of proof falls on you. Until you plan on doing the above, I'm not inclined to listen, especially when you want to claim that you can't compare Flayed Ones point for point against the different units that a. fulfill similar roles in other armies and b. do those roles and others far better.

Everyone uses different mechanisms to build their lists and in the way they play each game. If you want to exclude one of the few units that have infiltrate/outflank/DS (possibly with no scatter) because it can't take on a unit of Genestealers/grey hunters/<insert excellent CC unit> - cool.

How do your wraiths stack up though? Say against an equivalent points unit of Genestealers? Particularly if you give the genestealers the charge? (I haven't done the mathhammer here, cos I don't think anyone is going to drop wraiths cos they can't beat an equivalent points of genestealers - but that's my point ).

From your list above, you use a wraith wing - you don't need FO, either tactically or to meet CC requirements. Lots of people don't play wraithwing - let those generals decide whether FO are strategy efficient for themselves, without using specific comparisons which won't hold up if they aren't playing Nids/SW.



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Ninja'd - have to type faster next time

I see. Not efficient. So, as the most efficient unit is wraiths (as an example), everyone who doesn't have a wraithwing is being inefficient? Surely, you have to agree that some army lists and strategies don't use purely what the interweb sees as the most efficient? Or are these "inefficient" units only included because there are spare points to use up?

You are twisting what I said. I never claimed Wraithwing was the only efficient build. If you want to reference a previous post, I listed a large number of things I would take in each section over Flayed Ones. But sure, I'll bite. If you are taking a close combat unit, have a Fast Attack slot open, and take Flayed Ones instead of Wraiths, you are making a mistake.

I, for one, am certainly not trying to argue that FO are the best unit in the codex. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of efficiency you keep raising seems to overlook the synergy of a unit taken as a whole with the rest of the list and the initial strategy of how you are going to play it. As I said earlier, imho, you have to take units which have the best efficiency within the list to execute the strategy you have - these aren't always going to be the most "efficient" units on a standalone basis.

I still am waiting on a list that incorporates Flayed Ones in a synergistic and efficient way. Bat reps maybe? The Vassal challenge? Again, if the OP or anyone here wants to prove something against conventional thinking, they should probably have something to go off of.

Everyone uses different mechanisms to build their lists and in the way they play each game. If you want to exclude one of the few units that have infiltrate/outflank/DS (possibly with no scatter) because it can't take on a unit of Genestealers/grey hunters/<insert excellent CC unit> - cool.

How do your wraiths stack up though? Say against an equivalent points unit of Genestealers? Particularly if you give the genestealers the charge? (I haven't done the mathhammer here, cos I don't think anyone is going to drop wraiths cos they can't beat an equivalent points of genestealers - but that's my point ).

6 Wraiths, 3 with whip coils, 1 with particle caster are 245 points. 14 Genestealers with toxin sacs are 238 points. If you want, you can give Stealers the charge. Still, the Wraiths ignore terrain and move faster, and have nades (essentially), so the Stealer charge is less likely, but whatever. Let's say that the Nid player somehow only has 3 Stealers whipped. So, 11 go first.

33 attacks, 22 hits, 11 initial wounds, add another 6 for re-rolls. Wraiths take 5-6 wounds. Let's say for the sake of arguement, 4 get to attack back.
12 attacks, 6 hits, 1 rend, 4 wounds. Genestealers lose 2-3 to armor saves.
Additional whipped Stealers add another 4-5 wounds. Another wound or 2 on Wraiths.

So about 6-8 wounds on the Wraiths and 3-4 wounds on the Genestealers in an extremely lopsided situation for the Nids. Not too bad considering Flayed Ones get wiped.

From your list above, you use a wraith wing - you don't need FO, either tactically or to meet CC requirements. Lots of people don't play wraithwing - let those generals decide whether FO are strategy efficient for themselves, without using specific comparisons which won't hold up if they aren't playing Nids/SW.

Again, if you have Fast Attack slots open to take Wraiths and you take Flayed Ones instead, you are making a mistake. Wraiths are better in almost every way.

i like people who think out side of the net list and are creative its the only way new great list and tactics are created.


personally i dont play necrons but if i did you make flayed ones sound pretty sweet to me and they look cool to boot!

Again, if you have Fast Attack slots open to take Wraiths and you take Flayed Ones instead, you are making a mistake.

I will agree this is generally true.

Wraiths are better in almost every way.

Except against TH/SS termies, or Halberd GKs...which just happen to be two of the most common CC units in the game in the current meta.

Or durability against every shooting weapon in the game except AP 4 or better templates...

Also, Wraiths do not Infiltrate/Outflank or pinpoint DS. So...every one of the ways in which such tactical flexibility are viable...

Also, there are times when having a larger physical displacement is advantageous, like Bubble Wrapping for Instance.

Anyway, certainly not saying they are overall better then Wraiths, just pointing out the needless and factually incorrect hyperbole of your statement.

Edit for clarity, like 15 times but I'll get it all out there eventually .