Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
I have a feeling Doomsday Arks would do well in a Maximum Range, two turns of Solar Pulses, list focusing on everything with 36"+ weapons (Harps, TArrows, HDs, Heavy Gauss touting Stalkers, etc). I've written the list up on paper but for financial reasons haven't delved into it yet.

Love to see this too. I'd also like to hear more about situational use of the FO and coordinating with a destroyer lord in more situations. FO are the sort of unit that are very easy to make arbitrary comparisons to and try to rule out. You can describe a potential usage of them, and someone will relate that to some easy example where the tactic will not work as well. Their usage seems quite diverse though, and it seems like they can create quite a few situations where they will be doing their job whether your opponent is trying to react to them or not, though they are not flashy, and don't really do much except assault dudes and have a big threatening footprint, they are very versatile in the ways they can be used, so arbitrary counterpoints don't seem to suffice when determining how useful they can be.
I get the feeling they require either a lot of support or a disparity of generalship or somewhat ideal situations to be working well for you in a mech metagame though. I'm especially curious about deployment vs avoiding being unfavorably countercharged or eliminated via shooting and tactics around dealing with fast or sturdy vehicles in a close combat necron list with FO.

I'm waiting to see what happens with assaults in 6th ed before I start spending any money on flayed ones. There stats have never really appealed to me, especially that ini 2, but I do like the strategic options they open up.
I run a shooty army anyways. Not even taking any wraiths currently, for which I'm sure I would earn some derision.

Flayed ones aren't awful but in order to bring them you will be losing out on Wraiths, Barges/Scythes and scoring units. They may not be unusable but they dont fill a needed role. Most Cron armies need more anti-tank in order to allow wraiths to effectively charge embarked squads. Destroyer Lords are ok but a CCB with an Overlord with weave and scythe is FAR more intimidating. It denies cover, snipes models, its AV13 and can generate its own cover. The Barge also meshes nicely with the Wraiths as it has comparable speed. In order to be efficient at opening up vehicles you either need a bit of Tesla or you need a Scarab farm and I would venture to guess that in neither list could you comfortably fit Wraiths and the Flayed Ones.

Not to mention that the Flayed Ones can barely beat basic troops such as Grey Hunters, Blood Angels ASMs or Purifiers. If I am going to take a unit that has no duality, it better be damn good at its job. The Flayed Ones are not. They are slow and generally only threaten vehicles.

I think they can work with some above average generalship but I do believe that they are one of the weaker units in the Cron codex. I'd definitely take a stalker first.

LValx wrote:Not to mention that the Flayed Ones can barely beat basic troops such as Grey Hunters, Blood Angels ASMs or Purifiers. If I am going to take a unit that has no duality, it better be damn good at its job. The Flayed Ones are not. They are slow and generally only threaten vehicles.

Eh? A healthy sized unit of flayed ones would tear through Grey Hunters and BA ASM's with minimal casualties. The former matching the flayed one's cost, while the latter exceeds it notably.

Purifiers are elites, a full squad being nearly twice the price of a healthy sized flayed one squad - as such it's no surprise that it would be a very one-sided fight. With force weapons and hammerhand, everything would be very nervous going into assault with them, Walkers would feel most confident.. At half a squad, they'd lose one more member the the flayed ones, but they would still pose a significant threat to any non-walker in close combat. Wraiths? Whip coils would help, but with NFW's, one would lose a wraith for every wound suffered.

They may not be unusable but they dont fill a needed role. Most Cron armies need more anti-tank

This is also correct. As Nec I can deploy an absurd firepower vs Infantry that imho even makes DE Venomspam envious. So normally I don't need flayed ones, they are a solid choice and perform far better than warriors. This is because warriors are scoring bodies, not more.

This is an awesome topic and I agree.

IMO, Flayed Ones have been given a bad press simply because the other choices in the Codex are better.

Flayed Ones are not awful. They do have a use.

I've seen them put to good use in an Imotekh/Zahndrekh list, combining the Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs and Zahndrekh's deep strike in their turn rule.

The opponent didn't know what to shoot at and subsequently lost the game.

Imotekh + Destroyer Lord

Bloodswarm deep strike them a squad of 20 + destroy next to a unit.

Yeah, you're not getting anywhere!

I managed to make my Flayed Ones from the spare Ghost Ark Necron bodies when I made Doomsday Arks. I used green stuff to fill in the missing body gaps to represent flesh.

I would show you my example, but I don't have my camera with me right now.

Hell I would use them for outflanking. Imagine a unit of 20 flayed ones showing up on one of your flanks? Give em furious charge and watch them go to town on that backfield. Finally got my unit of 20 metal ones so I am excited about that.

My problem with them has always been, in a list where I am struggling to afford the things I know will work well, I don't exactly have points to spare on disposable units that might do what i want them to accomplish...

Blackgaze wrote:Imotekh + Destroyer Lord

Bloodswarm deep strike them a squad of 20 + destroy next to a unit.

Yeah, you're not getting anywhere!

I managed to make my Flayed Ones from the spare Ghost Ark Necron bodies when I made Doomsday Arks. I used green stuff to fill in the missing body gaps to represent flesh.

I would show you my example, but I don't have my camera with me right now.

Awful tactic, you've just given the opponent something they can actually see and shoot through nightfight. If they could DS and assault, sure. But alas, they cannot and therefore it is a terrible idea. Try this against my GK's and ill incinerate them and they will all die.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kharrak wrote:

LValx wrote:Not to mention that the Flayed Ones can barely beat basic troops such as Grey Hunters, Blood Angels ASMs or Purifiers. If I am going to take a unit that has no duality, it better be damn good at its job. The Flayed Ones are not. They are slow and generally only threaten vehicles.

Eh? A healthy sized unit of flayed ones would tear through Grey Hunters and BA ASM's with minimal casualties. The former matching the flayed one's cost, while the latter exceeds it notably.

Purifiers are elites, a full squad being nearly twice the price of a healthy sized flayed one squad - as such it's no surprise that it would be a very one-sided fight. With force weapons and hammerhand, everything would be very nervous going into assault with them, Walkers would feel most confident.. At half a squad, they'd lose one more member the the flayed ones, but they would still pose a significant threat to any non-walker in close combat. Wraiths? Whip coils would help, but with NFW's, one would lose a wraith for every wound suffered.

Purifiers are commonly taken as troops.

15 Flayed ones is about 200 pts,
9 Grey hunters + WG with fist and double melta + standard is about the same cost (cheaper in fact)

If the GHs get the charge they easily win combat due to the fist and standard. If they are charged they still win combat by a small amount. The GH's also have the ability to take a transport for added defense, they always get a charge bonus and they can shoot. I am sorry the Flayed Ones are overcosted for what they do. ASM's arent much more in price either. 10 with Jump Packs, PW and 2 Meltas runs slightly more than 200 and will generally have both FC and FNP. The FNP alone will generally tip the assault in the ASM favor. Since they are faster they will also generally receive the charge and on the charge they should be able to wipe out 5-6. Losing hardly any in return (maybe 1).

As I said, the Flayed Ones could be played by a competent general but dont get it twisted. They are points inefficient compared to most of the Cron codex. When you have such under-costed units as Wraiths, CCBS, Overlords, Anni Barges, Spyders and Scarabs, why waste time on something that is sub par?

LValx wrote:
15 Flayed ones is about 200 pts,
9 Grey hunters + WG with fist and double melta + standard is about the same cost (cheaper in fact)

If the GHs get the charge they easily win combat due to the fist and standard. If they are charged they still win combat by a small amount. The GH's also have the ability to take a transport for added defense, they always get a charge bonus and they can shoot. I am sorry the Flayed Ones are overcosted for what they do. ASM's arent much more in price either. 10 with Jump Packs, PW and 2 Meltas runs slightly more than 200 and will generally have both FC and FNP. The FNP alone will generally tip the assault in the ASM favor. Since they are faster they will also generally receive the charge and on the charge they should be able to wipe out 5-6. Losing hardly any in return (maybe 1).

As I said, the Flayed Ones could be played by a competent general but dont get it twisted. They are points inefficient compared to most of the Cron codex. When you have such under-costed units as Wraiths, CCBS, Overlords, Anni Barges, Spyders and Scarabs, why waste time on something that is sub par?

No they are not, you're paying for exactly what they are capable of doing. The, "they don't fill a roll" meme is only accurate if the only two rolls in the game are anti-tank and anti-infantry...which is an extremely limited way to look at the game. They are an infiltrating/deep striking CC unit capable of handling the vast majority of units actually fielded in the game.

Take your GH example. First of all, that's rarely how the Grey Hunters are actually fielded, most squads are smaller. Second of all, that example is lacking a transport for the Grey Hunters, which never happens. Flayed Ones are already "paying for" their transport, your assessment is inaccurate if you ignore this, as Grey Hunters are basically worthless without the Rino. Third, yes, if Grey Hunters use their Once Per game and if ASM have a Priest near by the statistics are skewed in their favor. But if we're going to assume the absolute best case scenario for what ever the Flayed Ones are fight why can't we do the same for the Flayed Ones? Like say they have an attached DLord with a res orb in the same army as Zandrehk and now they are striking with FC or have CA? Or what if they do a coordinated assault with some Whip Coil touting Wraiths? Now the Flayed Ones are winning combat quite easily against the units you mentioned.

This is why this unit in a vacuum none-sense is just that...none-sense. No competent played is going to put a unit in a gakky position just to full fill some silly forum discussion scenario. Most importantly, it says absolutely nothing of the opportunity cost these units paid when they had to engage with the Flayed Ones.


This is the mistake people make when appraising units the interwebs have told them they are not suppose to like, "well, if the stars are aligned exactly against the unit at all times they will never be good."
Seriously?

And if I roll nothing but 6's I can rule the universe with Gretchin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Awful tactic, you've just given the opponent something they can actually see and shoot through nightfight. If they could DS and assault, sure. But alas, they cannot and therefore it is a terrible idea. Try this against my GK's and ill incinerate them and they will all die.

ORLY?

And for some reason the rest of the Necron Army is just standing at their board edge not engaging you at all and crossing their fingers that the "Flayed One" gambit will pull off an upset?

Don't be silly.

Also, assuming an average of 15" distance, Night Fighting is gonna take a (1/6) of your fire power away by itself (just because the Flayed Ones are close to one unit doesn't mean they are close to all of your units). I know you think 2 to 3 turns into the game when you've suffered 2 to 3 turns worth of casualties you will be able to pull this off...but you are either going to commit way too much of your fire power to the Flayed Ones putting you at a distinct disadvantage to the Wraiths, Scarabs, etc coming at you from the other direction, or your going to just whittle away a chunk of them, granting them greater mobility via RP placement, and then your going to be assaulted the next turn.

You do realize that 10 GH in a rhino with 2xmelta and a standard are 200pts, which is very close to 15 flayed ones.

GH score, can shoot, have anti-tank and are good at fighting.

While flayed ones do have a role, they are not the equal to grey hunters.

Of course, there are few units out there as good as GH over all.

imweasel wrote:You do realize that 10 GH in a rhino with 2xmelta and a standard are 200pts, which is very close to 15 flayed ones.

GH score, can shoot, have anti-tank and are good at fighting.

While flayed ones do have a role, they are not the equal to grey hunters.

Of course, there are few units out there as good as GH over all.

Yes but he gave them a Wolf Guard, which was necessary to make his "they will beat Flayed Ones regardless of who gets the charge" argument. Take away the WG and the Flayed Ones are more then capable of taking out the Grey Hunters.

And Flayed Ones have anti-tank as well, it's called 60 S4 attacks against rear armor 10...but thats not their intended role, just something they can do in a pinch.

And for the last time "they can score" is a meaningless statement, after about 3 to 4 scoring units (depending on the army and the resiliency of the troops) the marginal returns of more scoring units is basically zero. I have warriors (or immortals), I don't need more of them. I need things that they don't do, like infiltrate, deep strike, and operate competently in assault.

Theyed be fine IF

1) fearless or stubborn(I dont know how they aren't)
2) Were troop choices, its ok if they cant score(or maybe even outside of FOC like the fluff)
3) didnt cost $45 for 5(read that again)$180 for a block of 20!
4) if the models looked good and/or the same as the old ones)

ShadarLogoth wrote:Yes but he gave them a Wolf Guard, which was necessary to make his "they will beat Flayed Ones regardless of who gets the charge" argument. Take away the WG and the Flayed Ones are more then capable of taking out the Grey Hunters.

And Flayed Ones have anti-tank as well, it's called 60 S4 attacks against rear armor 10...but thats not their intended role, just something they can do in a pinch.

And for the last time "they can score" is a meaningless statement, after about 3 to 4 scoring units (depending on the army and the resiliency of the troops) the marginal returns of more scoring units is basically zero. I have warriors (or immortals), I don't need more of them. I need things that they don't do, like infiltrate, deep strike, and operate competently in assault.

I didn't give them a wolf guard. Have you actually ran any numbers on how this scenario works out?

Your 15 strong FO deep strike in. GH jump out of the rhino and shoots the squad. 3 die and you get 1 back with RP. You now have 13 left. I pop the standard in your shooting phase and you assault me. Assuming I make my 70% chance of counter charge, I get 30 swings. After all the re-rolls, you lose 5 more. You are down to 8 guys left. You swing 32 times, get 8 wounds I lose 2-3 marines.

How in the world you get an 'auto win' out of this very common scenario is beyond me.

And ONE dread getting into cc makes every...single...flayed...one...completely and utterly useless.

Flayed ones have their uses, but they are not even as close to useful as a very common GH squad.

imweasel wrote:
Your 15 strong FO deep strike in. GH jump out of the rhino and shoots the squad. 3 die and you get 1 back with RP. You now have 13 left. I pop the standard in your shooting phase and you assault me. Assuming I make my 70% chance of counter charge, I get 30 swings. After all the re-rolls, you lose 5 more. You are down to 8 guys left. You swing 32 times, get 8 wounds I lose 2-3 marines.

How in the world you get an 'auto win' out of this very common scenario is beyond me.

Where did I say auto win, I said more then capable? And why stop the scenario where you did (because your once per game and Counter Attack have expired and the numbers are no longer in your favor)? Lets assume I only kill 2 marines but I get 2 Flayed Ones back from RP. Now it's 10 versus 8, the GH kill 16(1/2)(1/2)(1/2)=2 and the FOs strike back with 24(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=2. Now its a war of attrition that the Flayed Ones should win because they have a.) RP negating a third of their casualties and b.) have more numbers to begin with.

If that doesn't fit your description of "more then capable" then I would posit your standards of acceptability are irrationally high for a unit you simply don't want to like (maybe because the models are ugly and expensive?)

And ONE dread getting into cc makes every...single...flayed...one...completely and utterly useless.

Yeah and guess what else is useless, the pair of long range shooting weapons hanging from the Dreads shoulders (a Dread with no Dread CC weapons kills between .278 and .370 FOs/turn...OH NOOOS!). Or were you talking about the incredibly rare, doesn't appear in most tournament lists, Dedicated CC Dread? Yeah ok sure, I guess....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exalted Pariah wrote:Theyed be fine IF

1) fearless or stubborn(I dont know how they aren't)
2) Were troop choices, its ok if they cant score(or maybe even outside of FOC like the fluff)
3) didnt cost $45 for 5(read that again)$180 for a block of 20!
4) if the models looked good and/or the same as the old ones)

1) Is some what mitigated by Ld 10, don't get me wrong I would rather have fearless or stubborn, but Ld 10 is a decent consolation prize.
2)... is just not that big of a deal. Wraiths/Scarabs/Tomb Spyders/ABs can't score either...

3) Valid argument, but has nothing to do with their competitive viability. From a purely price stand point all MSU 1+1 mech spamming armies are incredibly expensive (from the shear nature of 500 dollars worht of vehicles you have to buy).

4) While subjective, still a valid argument. I have 20 metal models, so I am effectively removed from this equation.

Chill out man... We're talking about toy soldiers after all.

Couple the fact that GH:

Score.

Can shoot.

Very mobile.

Your inability to meet the idea that GH are more effective and versatile than...a disruptive(?) unit is flabergasting.

I guess your own standars are irrationally high for a unit that is better and you and incredibly low for a unit that has it's uses, but is not nearly as useful as GH.

Flayed ones have a role, but they are nowhere near as versatile or effective as a common 10 man GH unit.

imweasel wrote:Couple the fact that GH:

Score.

Can shoot.

Very mobile.

Your inability to meet the idea that GH are more effective and versatile than...a disruptive(?) unit is flabergasting.

I guess your own standars are irrationally high for a unit that is better and you and incredibly low for a unit that has it's uses, but is not nearly as useful as GH.

Flayed ones have a role, but they are nowhere near as versatile or effective as a common 10 man GH unit.

My argument never had anything to do with which unit was more versatile...ever...I literally never made that argument, or even anything close to resembling that argument.

Necrons can't bring Grey Hunters. The whole reason for the words "Grey" and "Hunters" existence in this thread is because they were brought up to in-accurately portray a unit that is superior to them in CC. The only reason I engaged in this line of thinking was to elucidate how clearly wrong this is.

I'm confused. This comparison of Flayed Ones to GH is underlining the stupidity of writing them off based on unrealistic comparisons.

Step 1 : Playing Necrons
Step 2 : Need a unit that can infiltrate/deep strike and has a packet load of attacks.
Step 3 : Get Grey Hunters??????

Seriously, the arguments over flayed ones HAVE to be in comparison to units that are actually IN the NECRON Codex.

Otherwise I'll just have CCBs, scarabs, Wraiths, Genestealers, Anni Barges and some Long Fangs.

It's legitimate to evaluate a unit's value in relation to units it is likely to come into conflict with.

Flayed Ones don't do well against a large unit of GH with Wolf Standard; but that's one of the most point-efficient close combat units in the entire game.

I think FO are better than many people credit, but they do have some challenging matchups in fairly common situations/against reasonably common enemy units they're likely to face.

If they had kept I4 I think they'd be great. I2 plus not being Fearless is kind of rough. While Ld10 makes them reasonably resistant to Morale, even losing a combat by 2 puts you at ~ a 1/3 chance to lose the whole unit.

If they had kept I4 I think they'd be great. I2 plus not being Fearless is kind of rough. While Ld10 makes them reasonably resistant to Morale, even losing a combat by 2 puts you at ~ a 1/3 chance to lose the whole unit.

This is definitely their most legitimate weak spot (although failing an 8 or under Leadership test is closer to (1/4) chance, and although not likely, their is at least a slim chance they will win the initiative roll off), just a slight tweak to combat resolution in 6th though could greatly alleviate this concern.

10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

Mannahnin wrote:It's legitimate to evaluate a unit's value in relation to units it is likely to come into conflict with.

Flayed Ones don't do well against a large unit of GH with Wolf Standard; but that's one of the most point-efficient close combat units in the entire game.

Okay, I get that. But my point was that writing off flayed ones on the basis that that may or may not beat GH in isolation isn't relevant. If you are going to do that, you can write off scarabs against any unit with a heavy flamer (actually, any template). That equally doesn't make scarabs bad.

If you are working in the Necron Codex you basically have a choice of wraiths or flayed ones for a CC capable unit. So, the comparison has to be between those two units in combination with the rest of your list and the way you like to play. Generic comments that they aren't good, based on the example that they may or may not beat GH in isolation of anything else going on, isn't helpful or accurate.

From a list perspective, if you load up the FA slots with scarabs, add spyders in HS (take Anni Barges even) and chuck in Imotekh, there may be a very good case for taking a unit of flayed ones.

imho, the early part of the thread was more relevant to the uses (or otherwise) of FO than where it is now, which I think was ShadarLogoth's point in the first place. Many comments about Flayed Ones are made using inappropriate comparisons and not taking into account how the person is going to use them.

Mannahnin wrote:10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

10/36 is .2778

1/4 is .2500

1/3 is .3333

...

Plus, and I don't know any easy way to derive the number, but I2 versus I4 has at least a 15% or so chance of winning the roll off?

Eitherway, your point is still very true, getting wiped sucks.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

10/36 is .2778

1/4 is .2500

1/3 is .3333

...

Plus, and I don't know any easy way to derive the number, but I2 versus I4 has at least a 15% or so chance of winning the roll off?

Eitherway, your point is still very true, getting wiped sucks.

This isn't a particularly Flayed One issue though. 20 warriors with a phaeron also has this problem (I speak from the trough of experience ) . Actually, my lychguard also have this problem.

Flayed Ones are not good. They don't even have grenades. They have incredibly low initiative, lack the ability to truly threaten vehicles. Good CC units have some level of duality. Things like Genestealers, Wraiths, TWC are all able to rend. Within the Necron codex itself you have one of the most cost efficient CC units in the game. Why ever field Flayed Ones? I guess maybe you plan to intentionally gimp yourself.

Infiltrating is not that good, it means you are still ~2 turns away from CC. It also means that your opponent will have an easy target to shoot at first turn because you will certainly be in range if you are attempting to apply pressure. Deep striking isn't the best tactic in the game either. Which is why DS heavy armies don't tend to fare too well at tournies.

We can have a playtest, if you'd like. You can show me the worth of the Flayed Ones on Vassal. I'd love to show you just how awful they are.

It is perfectly valid to compare Flayed Ones to units you will often see on the tabletop. And are you honestly kidding me about people not running large GH packs with Fists? Have you seen the Tony Kopach Space Wolf list? It's large GH units spammed, with power fists on 4 packs. And let's get real about the ASM comparison, how many players actually field ASMs and don't take any priests? Also, how many Cron players are actually running units of FOs with Destroyer Lords?

Flayed Ones are a poor CC unit because they have average to below average stats. WS4/I2/STR4/T4/4+, they literally shine at nothing. I'd rather take just about any other dedicated CC unit in the Cron codex outside of the Praetorians. I'd also prefer the dedicated CC of most other armies. Terminators/Genestealers/Fiends/Crushers/TWC/Purifiers/Paladins/Wyches/Harlequins/Boyz, you name it and i'd rather have it because they are either faster, stronger, hit better or more durable. If you look at those units they all have the ability to threaten both vehicles and infantry. STR4 does not cut it against most vehicles. Especially not in a metagame that is incredibly GK heavy. Look at Adepticon, half the players were GK. Are you going to sit there and tell me that the glances you MAY get will cut it against GK? I highly doubt it.

Cron players don't need FOs to apply pressure. They have faster more relevant threats to fulfill that role, i.e., Wraiths, Scarabs and Command Barges. Hell, that alone accounts for about half of a 2k list. The other half will need to be spent on your 2x pulses and some shooting to fill out the list. Once you sprinkle in Anni Barges and some troops you will have quickly ran out of points.

Show me some winning Cron lists, or some good players making good use of them and maybe i'll buy into your hype (the only two big Cron winners I know of are Eric Hoeger and Alex Fennell and I know they mostly take the usual, Crypteks, Barges, Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths and Immortals) I'd love to be convinced that they are good but all I see here are some delusional people who merely want to be against the grain. You are trying way to hard here.

And for the record. I'm not merely considering them in a vacuum, I am considering them in relation to units you will commonly see in competitive play. I don't know about you but I tend to shy away from things that are easily countered by commonly played armies or units. The reason I chose GH as a point of comparison is that I am showing that even NON-dedicated CC units can beat up on the FOs which are a DEDICATED cc unit. The fact that they have little to no anti-tank ability means they are a single purpose unit. My overall point here is that they are subpar at their intended purpose.

LValx

Basically your whole post can be summarized as "I don't think the things Flayed Ones uniquely do (infiltrate and deep strike) is that good so I don't think Flayed Ones are that good."


But there is not objective validity to that statement. In fact, competent generals prove that statement wrong all the time.


The rest is filled with have truths that you assume to be true but actually aren't. I guarantee you Flayed Ones have there own particular advantages over every single unit you posted, particularly resiliency.


In summary, your making a lot of assertions based off of assumptions that have no grounding in reality, and then pretending that those faulty assumptions have earned you a rhetorical high horse that doesn't exist.

Why would I care if Players you perceive as good use them or not? It's called an argument from authority (and completely fallacious), and I've been playing long enough (10 years) and understand math, game mechanics, and game theory well enough to not have to rely on the opinions of others.

ShadarLogoth wrote:LValx

Basically your whole post can be summarized as "I don't think the things Flayed Ones uniquely do (infiltrate and deep strike) is that good so I don't think Flayed Ones are that good."


But there is not objective validity to that statement. In fact, competent generals prove that statement wrong all the time.


The rest is filled with have truths that you assume to be true but actually aren't. I guarantee you Flayed Ones have there own particular advantages over every single unit you posted, particularly resiliency.


In summary, your making a lot of assertions based off of assumptions that have no grounding in reality, and then pretending that those faulty assumptions have earned you a rhetorical high horse that doesn't exist.

Why would I care if Players you perceive as good use them or not? It's called an argument from authority (and completely fallacious), and I've been playing long enough (10 years) and understand math, game mechanics, and game theory well enough to not have to rely on the opinions of others.

lol.

I think that Deep Striking and infiltration are fine. If the unit doing it is worth a damn. You haven't given any arguments as to what actually makes the Flayed Ones so good. They are not very resilient. T4 with a 4+ and a 5+ to get back up are not very good stats. Run the numbers on equal points of FOs going into combat against some of the other dedicated CC squads I mentioned. They lose almost every one of those match ups. How are FO's more resilient than Crushers, TWC or Terminators. How about Paladins? Or a big mob of Orks in cover? I would also argue that their lack of relative speed makes them in some respects less resilient as they will be shot at for more turns than things that have larger assault ranges or fleet.

I sure did appeal to the argument from authority but you are doing no better by giving what is at best anecdotal evidence for why Flayed One's are good. My point is that if they were obviously good, as you imply by titling your thread, "Why Flayed Ones are good and you are not.", then more players would be fielding them with some level of success. Hell, a few weeks ago I went to a NOVA invitational qualifier, 7 of the 28 players were Necrons and not a single player fielded Flayed Ones. Do you honestly believe that you are THAT much smarter, or more enlightened than other competitive 40k players? That seems like quite a bit of hubris right there.

Quit talking about high horses by the way, have you even read your own thread? You've been on a high horse from the moment you made a thread with such a ridiculous title. YOU are the one who originally made assertions that weren't been based on anything objective. It is a board game, neither of us will have much success in giving a truly objective argument as to why they are a good or bad unit. The best I can do is compare them to units who fulfill similar roles in the game and I feel that they are a poor choice for what they should be doing. Their stat line hardly resembles that of a dedicated CC unit and I find that it leaves something to be desired.

As I said. I'd love to play against you on Vassal, maybe you can show me just how worthwhile the Flayed Ones are.

The reason I chose GH as a point of comparison is that I am showing that even NON-dedicated CC units can beat up on the FOs which are a DEDICATED cc unit.

But you chose one of the best "non-dedicated CC"...CC units in the game. It's an arbitrary comparison. Then you painted the scenario in such a way as to completely favor the GH. Once the conditions are properly set (give the GH a turn of double tap, let them get charged, and the FOs come out a hair ahead) it shows that, if anything, the fact that point for point Flayed Ones can be capable against one of the more under priced units in the entire game is at the very least a good reason to consider them.