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ShadarLogoth wrote:

The reason I chose GH as a point of comparison is that I am showing that even NON-dedicated CC units can beat up on the FOs which are a DEDICATED cc unit.

But you chose one of the best "non-dedicated CC"...CC units in the game. It's an arbitrary comparison. Then you painted the scenario in such a way as to completely favor the GH. Once the conditions are properly set (give the GH a turn of double tap, let them get charged, and the FOs come out a hair ahead) it shows that, if anything, the fact that point for point Flayed Ones can be capable against one of the more under priced units in the entire game is at the very least a good reason to consider them.

It doesn't matter, are you simply going to compare FO's to units that are poor? Hell no, you will compare them to units that are good and often found on the table top. GH's fit both categories and they are the backbone of a codex that generally makes up a large portion of the bigger GT's attendees.
Even if equal points GH's and FO's face off and the FO's get the charge, the GH's still receive their attack bonus for charging AND they still receive their standard bonus. So you still will lose 4-6 FOs before you even get to swing and then when you swing you will kill 2-3 GH's. After the Fist swings you will probably lose combat by 3-5, meaning you are taking a leadership test that isn't really favorable. If the GH's get to double tap their bolters first you will lose by an even larger margin because your initial numbers will be lower.
Dedicated CC units should not be throttled by Non-dedicated CC units. Most of those other CC units I mentioned do strike fear into the hearts of GH's. FO's are subpar vs the most common type of army you will face in the game: MEQ.

Another point, earlier someone mentioned walkers tarpitting you. You simply shrugged this off and said if the walker isnt shooting its a win situation for you. How exactly is a 125 Pt Rifleman tying up a big 200 pt brick of FOs a good situation for you? Eventually that Dread will sweep your FO's, it will probably force a fair amount of LD 8-9 checks, of which you should eventually fail one and then you open yourself up to a high possibility of being swept.

If the FO's had power weapons, rending, fleet, or maybe outflank, I'd say they would be worthwhile. However infiltration and DS are not enough to make them a good unit. Especially since both of those game mechanics aren't that well put together.

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are not good. They don't even have grenades. They have incredibly low initiative, lack the ability to truly threaten vehicles. Good CC units have some level of duality. Things like Genestealers, Wraiths, TWC are all able to rend. Within the Necron codex itself you have one of the most cost efficient CC units in the game. Why ever field Flayed Ones? I guess maybe you plan to intentionally gimp yourself.

Well, just about every necron unit is I2. So, that's not a reason not to take them. Also, if the FA slots are filled with scarabs, then you can't get wraiths. You could spend 200 points on 5 Lychguard (S5/T5/A2/I2/3++) but I'm not sure that they would fare much better (too few attacks). So, in some cases, it isn't gimping yourself, its working within the other things you have in your list.

LValx wrote:Infiltrating is not that good, it means you are still ~2 turns away from CC. It also means that your opponent will have an easy target to shoot at first turn because you will certainly be in range if you are attempting to apply pressure. Deep striking isn't the best tactic in the game either. Which is why DS heavy armies don't tend to fare too well at tournies.

Fair enough. But not all games are tourneys. Also, surely you aren't suggesting that FO should be ruled out simply because they infiltrate/deep strike?

LValx wrote:It is perfectly valid to compare Flayed Ones to units you will often see on the tabletop.

Sure, but as there are limited alternatives, you can't rule them out just because in some match ups they'd lose. Other than wraiths, what choices does a Necron player have?

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are a poor CC unit because they have average to below average stats. WS4/I2/STR4/T4/4+, they literally shine at nothing. I'd rather take just about any other dedicated CC unit in the Cron codex outside of the Praetorians.

So, you'd rather take wraiths then. Me too. (I suppose you could call Lychguard dedicated CC - all you need is 400 points for 10 of them).

LValx wrote:I'd also prefer the dedicated CC of most other armies. Terminators/Genestealers/Fiends/Crushers/TWC/Purifiers/Paladins/Wyches/Harlequins/Boyz, you name it and i'd rather have it because they are either faster, stronger, hit better or more durable. If you look at those units they all have the ability to threaten both vehicles and infantry. STR4 does not cut it against most vehicles.

Sure, I'd rather have genestealers/Terminators etc. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be in my Codex.

LValx wrote:Cron players don't need FOs to apply pressure. They have faster more relevant threats to fulfill that role, i.e., Wraiths, Scarabs and Command Barges. Hell, that alone accounts for about half of a 2k list. The other half will need to be spent on your 2x pulses and some shooting to fill out the list. Once you sprinkle in Anni Barges and some troops you will have quickly ran out of points.

Agreed. However, that doesn't automatically make them bad. A lot of people don't take Deathmarks either and they are similarly use/situationally dependent.

LValx wrote:Show me some winning Cron lists, or some good players making good use of them and maybe i'll buy into your hype (the only two big Cron winners I know of are Eric Hoeger and Alex Fennell and I know they mostly take the usual, Crypteks, Barges, Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths and Immortals) I'd love to be convinced that they are good but all I see here are some delusional people who merely want to be against the grain. You are trying way to hard here.

I think the point is not that they are good, but that they are not automatically bad. They are situationally and list dependent, but could be viable (much like Deathmarks, Lychguard, Stalkers etc)

LValx wrote:And for the record. I'm not merely considering them in a vacuum, I am considering them in relation to units you will commonly see in competitive play. I don't know about you but I tend to shy away from things that are easily countered by commonly played armies or units.

So presumably you wouldn't play scarabs either?

I'm certainly not suggesting that FO would be my goto unit. However, before this thread, I wouldn't have considered them because of the interweb view that they were hopeless. Now, I'm looking at them and looking what they could do in certain lists - which as I mainly play non tourney games works for me.

LValx wrote:
lol.

I think that Deep Striking and infiltration are fine. If the unit doing it is worth a damn. You haven't given any arguments as to what actually makes the Flayed Ones so good.

I have, you just choose to either ignore them, or move the goal posts every time.

They are not very resilient. T4 with a 4+ and a 5+ to get back up are not very good stats. Run the numbers on equal points of FOs going into combat against some of the other dedicated CC squads I mentioned. They lose almost every one of those match ups. How are FO's more resilient than Crushers, TWC or Terminators. How about Paladins? Or a big mob of Orks in cover? I would also argue that their lack of relative speed makes them in some respects less resilient as they will be shot at for more turns than things that have larger assault ranges or fleet.

This is just completely wrong. Point for point, it takes more fire power to kill the Flayed Ones then every unit you posted, besides the Orcs, who you conveniently place in cover. Also, with competent RP placement, they are faster then any foot based unit without fleet, so again, completely, or at least mostly, wrong. And again, they have infiltrate and DS, so your talking about a maximum of 2 turns to get shot at, through Night Fighting. Your perception here that they are going to have to survive more fire power then comparative units to get to assault is patently false and ignores one of the distinct advantages the Flayed Ones have.

I sure did appeal to the argument from authority but you are doing no better by giving what is at best anecdotal evidence for why Flayed One's are good. My point is that if they were obviously good, as you imply by titling your thread, "Why Flayed Ones are good and you are not.", then more players would be fielding them with some level of success. Hell, a few weeks ago I went to a NOVA invitational qualifier, 7 of the 28 players were Necrons and not a single player fielded Flayed Ones. Do you honestly believe that you are THAT much smarter, or more enlightened than other competitive 40k players? That seems like quite a bit of hubris right there.

Tournament players went for the obvious choices, as they always do. You act like these players came to these decisions independent of each other, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Case in point:
Most players thought (and many still think) that Harpies and Tfexes are bad units in the Nid codex. However, there are now several very well respected players that do use them, because in the many moons since the codex came out they've had more time to be played around with and their beneficial idiosyncrasies have had a chance to surface.

Quit talking about high horses by the way, have you even read your own thread? You've been on a high horse from the moment you made a thread with such a ridiculous title.

It was a joke. Winky faces, and the part where I explicitly said it was a joke, should have clued you in on this. <---Again, joke.

YOU are the one who originally made assertions that weren't been based on anything objective.

What part of my original post, specifically, wasn't objective? I outlined the unique aspects of the unit relative to their codex.

Their stat line hardly resembles that of a dedicated CC unit and I find that it leaves something to be desired.

Compare their stat line to CC units with similar capabilities (Orc Commandos for instance) and I really don't see how you can say this.

As I said. I'd love to play against you on Vassal, maybe you can show me just how worthwhile the Flayed Ones are.

Sadly I don't have Vassal and barely have time to play the real life games I can fit in at the moment (newborn baby, work Grave yard). However, if these conditions change, I'll certainly PM you. I think you are absolutely correct that it can be much easier to illustrate a units effectiveness on the battlefield.

MarkCron wrote:

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are not good. They don't even have grenades. They have incredibly low initiative, lack the ability to truly threaten vehicles. Good CC units have some level of duality. Things like Genestealers, Wraiths, TWC are all able to rend. Within the Necron codex itself you have one of the most cost efficient CC units in the game. Why ever field Flayed Ones? I guess maybe you plan to intentionally gimp yourself.

Well, just about every necron unit is I2. So, that's not a reason not to take them. Also, if the FA slots are filled with scarabs, then you can't get wraiths. You could spend 200 points on 5 Lychguard (S5/T5/A2/I2/3++) but I'm not sure that they would fare much better (too few attacks). So, in some cases, it isn't gimping yourself, its working within the other things you have in your list.

LValx wrote:Infiltrating is not that good, it means you are still ~2 turns away from CC. It also means that your opponent will have an easy target to shoot at first turn because you will certainly be in range if you are attempting to apply pressure. Deep striking isn't the best tactic in the game either. Which is why DS heavy armies don't tend to fare too well at tournies.

Fair enough. But not all games are tourneys. Also, surely you aren't suggesting that FO should be ruled out simply because they infiltrate/deep strike?

LValx wrote:It is perfectly valid to compare Flayed Ones to units you will often see on the tabletop.

Sure, but as there are limited alternatives, you can't rule them out just because in some match ups they'd lose. Other than wraiths, what choices does a Necron player have?

LValx wrote:Flayed Ones are a poor CC unit because they have average to below average stats. WS4/I2/STR4/T4/4+, they literally shine at nothing. I'd rather take just about any other dedicated CC unit in the Cron codex outside of the Praetorians.

So, you'd rather take wraiths then. Me too. (I suppose you could call Lychguard dedicated CC - all you need is 400 points for 10 of them).

LValx wrote:I'd also prefer the dedicated CC of most other armies. Terminators/Genestealers/Fiends/Crushers/TWC/Purifiers/Paladins/Wyches/Harlequins/Boyz, you name it and i'd rather have it because they are either faster, stronger, hit better or more durable. If you look at those units they all have the ability to threaten both vehicles and infantry. STR4 does not cut it against most vehicles.

Sure, I'd rather have genestealers/Terminators etc. Unfortunately, they don't appear to be in my Codex.

LValx wrote:Cron players don't need FOs to apply pressure. They have faster more relevant threats to fulfill that role, i.e., Wraiths, Scarabs and Command Barges. Hell, that alone accounts for about half of a 2k list. The other half will need to be spent on your 2x pulses and some shooting to fill out the list. Once you sprinkle in Anni Barges and some troops you will have quickly ran out of points.

Agreed. However, that doesn't automatically make them bad. A lot of people don't take Deathmarks either and they are similarly use/situationally dependent.

LValx wrote:Show me some winning Cron lists, or some good players making good use of them and maybe i'll buy into your hype (the only two big Cron winners I know of are Eric Hoeger and Alex Fennell and I know they mostly take the usual, Crypteks, Barges, Scarabs, Spyders, Wraiths and Immortals) I'd love to be convinced that they are good but all I see here are some delusional people who merely want to be against the grain. You are trying way to hard here.

I think the point is not that they are good, but that they are not automatically bad. They are situationally and list dependent, but could be viable (much like Deathmarks, Lychguard, Stalkers etc)

LValx wrote:And for the record. I'm not merely considering them in a vacuum, I am considering them in relation to units you will commonly see in competitive play. I don't know about you but I tend to shy away from things that are easily countered by commonly played armies or units.

So presumably you wouldn't play scarabs either?

I'm certainly not suggesting that FO would be my goto unit. However, before this thread, I wouldn't have considered them because of the interweb view that they were hopeless. Now, I'm looking at them and looking what they could do in certain lists - which as I mainly play non tourney games works for me.

If this thread is about FOs in a non-competitive setting, go ahead. I dont see anything wrong with taking them casually. But I think that proclaiming them to be "good" is a bit of a stretch.
Wraiths are able to counteract their poor initiative with whip coils and the ability to generally receive the charge and thus placing the whipcoils in an advantageous manner. Wraiths are also fearless and thus needn't worried about sweeping advances. FOs are scared to death of being swept. It's incredibly easy to do.
Scarabs are a point-efficient CC unit that a Necron player can take. I don't advocate 18 Wraith builds, I'd say that 2 squads of Wraiths with 1 big squad of Scarabs is probably the ideal CC set up for a Cron player. Between the Wraiths, Scarabs and the Scythe lords you should have more than enough CC ability. The FO's are low quality CC that do not really fulfill any needed role. Cron players want to be able to open up vehicles so that the Wraiths and Lords can eat the squads inside. Scarabs also perform very well against many different types of infantry you see commonly fielded.
As an aside, their aren't many commonly fielded units that perform particularly well vs Scarabs outside of the GK codex. Something like Hammernators would do well vs them but the Scarabs are faster and should therefore be able to pick and choose their battles

ShadarLogoth wrote:

LValx wrote:
lol.

I think that Deep Striking and infiltration are fine. If the unit doing it is worth a damn. You haven't given any arguments as to what actually makes the Flayed Ones so good.

I have, you just choose to either ignore them, or move the goal posts every time.

They are not very resilient. T4 with a 4+ and a 5+ to get back up are not very good stats. Run the numbers on equal points of FOs going into combat against some of the other dedicated CC squads I mentioned. They lose almost every one of those match ups. How are FO's more resilient than Crushers, TWC or Terminators. How about Paladins? Or a big mob of Orks in cover? I would also argue that their lack of relative speed makes them in some respects less resilient as they will be shot at for more turns than things that have larger assault ranges or fleet.

This is just completely wrong. Point for point, it takes more fire power to kill the Flayed Ones then every unit you posted, besides the Orcs, who you conveniently place in cover. Also, with competent RP placement, they are faster then any foot based unit without fleet, so again, completely, or at least mostly, wrong. And again, they have infiltrate and DS, so your talking about a maximum of 2 turns to get shot at, through Night Fighting. Your perception here that they are going to have to survive more fire power then comparative units to get to assault is patently false and ignores one of the distinct advantages the Flayed Ones have.

I sure did appeal to the argument from authority but you are doing no better by giving what is at best anecdotal evidence for why Flayed One's are good. My point is that if they were obviously good, as you imply by titling your thread, "Why Flayed Ones are good and you are not.", then more players would be fielding them with some level of success. Hell, a few weeks ago I went to a NOVA invitational qualifier, 7 of the 28 players were Necrons and not a single player fielded Flayed Ones. Do you honestly believe that you are THAT much smarter, or more enlightened than other competitive 40k players? That seems like quite a bit of hubris right there.

Tournament players went for the obvious choices, as they always do. You act like these players came to these decisions independent of each other, but that couldn't be further from the truth. Case in point:
Most players thought (and many still think) that Harpies and Tfexes are bad units in the Nid codex. However, there are now several very well respected players that do use them, because in the many moons since the codex came out they've had more time to be played around with and their beneficial idiosyncrasies have had a chance to surface.

Quit talking about high horses by the way, have you even read your own thread? You've been on a high horse from the moment you made a thread with such a ridiculous title.

It was a joke. Winky faces, and the part where I explicitly said it was a joke, should have clued you in on this. <---Again, joke.

YOU are the one who originally made assertions that weren't been based on anything objective.

What part of my original post, specifically, wasn't objective? I outlined the unique aspects of the unit relative to their codex.

Their stat line hardly resembles that of a dedicated CC unit and I find that it leaves something to be desired.

Compare their stat line to CC units with similar capabilities (Orc Commandos for instance) and I really don't see how you can say this.

As I said. I'd love to play against you on Vassal, maybe you can show me just how worthwhile the Flayed Ones are.

Sadly I don't have Vassal and barely have time to play the real life games I can fit in at the moment (newborn baby, work Grave yard). However, if these conditions change, I'll certainly PM you. I think you are absolutely correct that it can be much easier to illustrate a units effectiveness on the battlefield.

Please show me the nid players who perform at a high level that take harpys and fexes. I am curious to see this. Most of the Daemon troops are similarly costed to the FO's and have better stats.
You and I also both know that any player worth his salt will have his large mobs of Orks in cover.
How are FO's faster than genestealers? Genestealers also infiltrate and have fleet...
How are they faster than TWC? TWC can easily reach combat by turn 2. As can Nob Bikers.
Fiends and Crushers are just as fast because they can also DS and they have the chance to auto-DS first turn. Thus they are able to apply pressure very very quickly. Terminators are generally fielded in Raiders and therefore have a much larger charge range.

Heres a similarly costed dedicated CC unit: Deathcult Assassins. Tell me that Flayed Ones can compete with that? The Assassins have just as many base attacks, they have only a 5+ save but they also have a 5+ invulnerable, they have a higher initiative and they sport a higher weapon skill. THAT is HUGE.

You keep making the mistake of talking about the FOs in a vacuum rather than analyzing them for how they work in the game that we actually play. In THAT game they have little to no use. Especially against the Mech heavy environment of 5th edition. If you are spending your points on FO's that is less anti-tank you have available. Please show us one of your FOs lists so that we can see how they "synergize"


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Good units are obviously good to most players. It doesn't take a genius to see why Wraiths, CCBs, Scarabs, Spyders are all fantastic units. You must think that you are some sort of special mind, to assert that a unit that is commonly held to be poor is in fact a good choice to be fielded.

Not that I always agree with him but this about sums up my feelings as to why FOs aren't any good:
http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/11/necron-units-flayed-ones/

LValx wrote:Even if equal points GH's and FO's face off and the FO's get the charge, the GH's still receive their attack bonus for charging AND they still receive their standard bonus. So you still will lose 4-6 FOs before you even get to swing and then when you swing you will kill 2-3 GH's. After the Fist swings you will probably lose combat by 3-5, meaning you are taking a leadership test that isn't really favorable. If the GH's get to double tap their bolters first you will lose by an even larger margin because your initial numbers will be lower.

Your numbers are quite simply wrong here. The only thing I can tell you is create the two units with equal points (with a Rino for the GH because they are worthless without it) and roll off the combat. The results will surprise you.

Dedicated CC units should not be throttled by Non-dedicated CC units.

And they do. Describing them as being "throttled" by the GH is a product of you not properly evaluating the actual scenario.

Another point, earlier someone mentioned walkers tarpitting you. You simply shrugged this off and said if the walker isnt shooting its a win situation for you. How exactly is a 125 Pt Rifleman tying up a big 200 pt brick of FOs a good situation for you? Eventually that Dread will sweep your FO's, it will probably force a fair amount of LD 8-9 checks, of which you should eventually fail one and then you open yourself up to a high possibility of being swept.

Who said I assaulted one dreadnought with 15? Not a likely secnario. If I could get 2 with a multi assault however I would certainly take it. What I was pointing out that if some one was dumb enough to assault them with a dreadnought then it would a strategic net positive for the Necron side. The chances of A&gt A Rifleman dreadnought killing a Flayed One, B.) Them Failing their moral check and C.) Them getting overrun are infinitesimally small. Like like 1 out of 50 small.

If the FO's had power weapons, rending, fleet, or maybe outflank, I'd say they would be worthwhile. However infiltration and DS are not enough to make them a good unit. Especially since both of those game mechanics aren't that well put together.

Infiltrate is Outflank. And the rest of this statement proves my point, you simply don't have enough experience and exposure to understand the validity or these game mechanics.

Boo boo on my part, i understand the validity of ds and outflank, as an ex deathwing and ex sw player i have used units that fulfill both roles spectacularly. Al raheem platoons are great too, as are flanking stealers and war walkers. Unfortunately crons dont have useful reserve manipulation meaning you cant control their outflanking too well. Sw scouts are great because they generally end up where you need them and they have duality, flayed ones dont have any duality.


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Vassal is super easy to acquire and with the amount of time youve spent debating here we could easily play a game.


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10 gh with 2 melta and standard + rhino is = to 15 flayed ones. If the GHs shoot first they should win combat by ~2 if they charge they should win by ~3.

LValx wrote:
Please show me the nid players who perform at a high level that take harpys and fexes. I am curious to see this.

Well, no Nid list "perform[s] at a high level" . Seriously though, go look at some of the more recent rhetoric surrounding these units, Apuse Puppy at 3++ is one of the ones that comes to mind that has written about there viability.

You and I also both know that any player worth his salt will have his large mobs of Orks in cover.

I've killed me an Orc or two out of cover. Edit: Original made no sense.

How are FO's faster than genestealers? Genestealers also infiltrate and have fleet...

I specifically said with out fleet, however fleet gets you an extra 3.5", and that is only on the turn you assault. Competent RP placement buys you 3" every phase you get shot. The mobility here is much closer then you think.

How are they faster than TWC? TWC can easily reach combat by turn 2. As can Nob Bikers.

Never said that.

Fiends and Crushers are just as fast because they can also DS and they have the chance to auto-DS first turn. Thus they are able to apply pressure very very quickly

You really seem to want to ignore this whole "RP addes to their mobility" concept.

Terminators are generally fielded in Raiders and therefore have a much larger charge range.

Yeah, until their 250 point toy gets shot out beneath them...

Heres a similarly costed dedicated CC unit: Deathcult Assassins. Tell me that Flayed Ones can compete with that? The Assassins have just as many base attacks, they have only a 5+ save but they also have a 5+ invulnerable, they have a higher initiative and they sport a higher weapon skill. THAT is HUGE.

DCA are amazing in CC, now doubt about it. However, they die horribly to bolter fire, not so much and issue with the Flayed One.

You keep making the mistake of talking about the FOs in a vacuum rather than analyzing them for how they work in the game that we actually play. In THAT game they have little to no use. Especially against the Mech heavy environment of 5th edition. If you are spending your points on FO's that is less anti-tank you have available. Please show us one of your FOs lists so that we can see how they "synergize"

I'm really not. I've actually played with them for 6 months, and I can guaruntee you I have more experience actually using them on the battlefield then anyone one with a negative perception of them. I will be making a post with the most common list I run them in soon though, and it happens to contain a couple of other under utilized units. Stay tuned .

Good units are obviously good to most players. It doesn't take a genius to see why Wraiths, CCBs, Scarabs, Spyders are all fantastic units. You must think that you are some sort of special mind, to assert that a unit that is commonly held to be poor is in fact a good choice to be fielded.

I'm actually a genius, so yeah...what can you do? (/shrug)


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LValx wrote:
Vassal is super easy to acquire and with the amount of time youve spent debating here we could easily play a game.

Tu shay, I am at work though, not sure if such activity would be condoned .

10 gh with 2 melta and standard + rhino is = to 15 flayed ones. If the GHs shoot first they should win combat by ~2 if they charge they should win by ~3.

Win the first round of combat by 2 is what you mean right? But after that, assuming a successful Ld roll (which is just as likely in this case as the successful counter attack roll that necessitates it), and RP rolls, the combat turns out just slightly in the Flayed Ones favor.

Everyone sitting behind their computer desk is always a genius. If you are so good at 40k im curious as to what major event you have won? Why is your opinion at all valuable?
I wouldnt feed you any movement on the flayed ones because i can simply kite them and deal with your more pressing threats. Since they have a small threat radius, lack shooting and can barely threaten basic troops, I would leave them be until I needed to deal with them. I really would love to get a game in. Im sure you can spare some time with the amount of time you seem to have wasted on this forum.
And since you know so little about competitive 40k, nick nanaviti has placed fairly high in some big events with nids. He runs the usual units you see good nid players run (tervs, hive guard, stealers)

LValx wrote:Everyone sitting behind their computer desk is always a genius. If you are so good at 40k im curious as to what major event you have won? Why is your opinion at all valuable?

/sigh this sarcasm concept...look into it.

I wouldnt feed you any movement on the flayed ones because i can simply kite them and deal with your more pressing threats. Since they have a small threat radius, lack shooting and can barely threaten basic troops, I would leave them be until I needed to deal with them.

15 Flayed Ones spread out in 2" coherency have a massive threat range. Avoiding them means you are narrowing the real estate the Wraiths/Scarabs etc have to cover. If you can't see the clear tactical advantage this creates I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I really would love to get a game in. Im sure you can spare some time with the amount of time you seem to have wasted on this forum.

I honestly can't, take it as you will.

And since you know so little about competitive 40k, nick nanaviti has placed fairly high in some big events with nids. He runs the usual units you see good nid players run (tervs, hive guard, stealers)

LOLWUT?

In one statement you managed to combine meaningless, incredibly selective, anecdotal evidence, an argument from authority, and an ad hominem. Impressive.

You name dropping abusepuppy and saying unnamed players do well with fexes and harpys is any different how? All i was pointing out is that the one fairly successful nid player i am familiar with runs the units generally agreed upon as the better units. I think i supplied a little more evidence than you. And quit with the phil bs, im glad you took a class or two in logic. Ironically enough im a phil major. Dont sit here and act like you havent committed fallacies as well. This whole argument is about as subjective as one can be.


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Btw nanaviti is quite the player. He won the nova invitational last year and has placed very high at some other well known gts with armies as diverse as tyranids and tau. The man does have credentials.


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You keep missing the part where I keep telling you that the flayed ones are not a perceived threat. Show me otherwise. Lets see a sample FOs list right now.

LValx wrote:You name dropping abusepuppy and saying unnamed players do well with fexes and harpys is any different how? All i was pointing out is that the one fairly successful nid player i am familiar with runs the units generally agreed upon as the better units. I think i supplied a little more evidence than you. And quit with the phil bs, im glad you took a class or two in logic. Ironically enough im a phil major. Dont sit here and act like you havent committed fallacies as well. This whole argument is about as subjective as one can be.

My condolences to your professors.

Btw nanaviti is quite the player. He won the nova invitational last year and has placed very high at some other well known gts with armies as diverse as tyranids and tau. The man does have credentials.

Nobody is arguing that. But the fact that one succesful player does or does not use a unit is 100% meaningless. AP has actually written about the positive uses of the units I mentioned. Do you really not see the difference here?

You keep missing the part where I keep telling you that the flayed ones are not a perceived threat. Show me otherwise. Lets see a sample FOs list right now.

I agree they are often not a perceived threat. This is awesome. I've clearly shown, mutiple times, that they actually are a threat however. 15 Flayed Ones cause 5 glances to a combat speed vehicle, aka enough to stun it and knock off shiney bits. How is that not a threat? They can also take out any primarily shooting based unit quite easily (GH are most certainly not a primarily shooting based unit, they are a close quarters hybrid unit). Again...how is that not a threat?

Nanaviti isnt the only player to eschew harpys and fexes. Show me a tyranid list that has performed well that used either unit, i challenge you. A player winning a large gt is better evidence than an article written by someone with hardly any credentials.
If i move my vehicle 12 the flayed ones have hardly any viability. There is a reason why close combat is not to be relied upon for vehicle killing, ask daemons or nids how that generally works out for them.



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Agree to disagree. You see a diamond in the rough, I see inefficiency at its worst

LValx wrote:Nanaviti isnt the only player to eschew harpys and fexes. Show me a tyranid list that has performed well that used either unit, i challenge you. A player winning a large gt is better evidence than an article written by someone with hardly any credentials.

I honestly can't, but the pool of Nid generals winning tournies with any list is unfourtunatly small to begin with.

If i move my vehicle 12 the flayed ones have hardly any viability. There is a reason why close combat is not to be relied upon for vehicle killing, ask daemons or nids how that generally works out for them.

I'm still averaging a glance and a half (with 15), versus anyone besides GK this is plenty sufficient. Their weight of attacks here is a distinct advantage over power weapon based CC units, as the points spent on the power weapons are intrinsically inefficient for vehicle killing.

Agree to disagree. You see a diamond in the rough, I see inefficiency at its worst

Word. Look, you bring up valid concerns, but what I'm attempting to do is illustrate why the common perception is flawed.

Shadar, it's not an entirely arbitrary comparison. That's a pretty common unit to see in SW armies, and is one of the more likely things they would use to preemptively charge the FO when they show up.

That said, yeah, some of LValx's points aren't very good ones.

Just because no top players have used them yet at a big event doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. How many top-placing players other than Alex Fennell have been running a Ghost Ark? Or Monolith? Or dual Lightning Field Crypteks? The book is still pretty new and the prevalence of list/unit discussions on blogs and forums nowadays I think does create an echo chamber where a small list of obvious units gets distorted and blown up into treated like the only effective units.

In terms of what FOs have that's exceptional, one is their A3 base, another is their durability. Point for point they're more durable than terminators. The tricky RP bonus movement at the end of the opponent's shooting phase if they get shot is another unique advantage.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:10/36 is closer to 1/3. It's not an awful chance, but if you do blow it the cost is very high.

10/36 is .2778
1/4 is .2500
1/3 is .3333

Yeah; I woke up this morning and my subconscious was going "Wait, 9 is 1/4 of 36, and 12 is 1/3". Whoops.

While all this conjecture and theoryhammering is fun and all, show some tabletop results and ill listen. This is why theoryhammering is flawed; we need dice, tactics, and terrain all so see the unit in action.

Also don't forget this dex was written with 6th in mind; some units haven't shown their true colors yet

If you believe that 1-2 glances on back AV10 is efficient for a 200 pt unit then I cannot help you out man. Premier CC units have duality in that they generally have the ability to take down vehicles either through high STR or rending.

I realize that a great deal of my points were arbitrary and anecdotal but I feel the OP's post was quite similar. I believe that in comparison to other units in the codex that fulfill similar roles, the FOs pale. I asked to see a list and he still has yet to provide one. I have a difficult time imagining what a person could drop in order to field 15 Flayed Ones. It either results in a list that is light on scoring, shooting or wraiths and barges. All of which seem like awful trade-offs just to receive some average to below average CC.

Mannahnin wrote:How many top-placing players other than Alex Fennell have been running a Ghost Ark? Or Monolith? Or dual Lightning Field Crypteks?

I'm sorry to say but I agree with nearly all of LValx's points. As far as your statement goes I think you're making one misconception here. I for one haven't even agreed that Alex Fennel's list is any good. To be honest, I think it's utter trash. The fact he's placed high in a tournament with it doesn't make his unit choices or army composition any good. I've won a GT finals type event with vanilla Space Marines myself and in no way does it make that book particularly competitive, it just means I played decent and randomised suitable opponents and scenarios. My point being, even if I took Necrons to a GT tomorrow and got a top 5 finish with 20 Flayed Ones in my army, LValx's points about that unit being non-competitive against all the regular tournament power houses is still valid. My army would've been more competitive with 2x Wraiths and 1x Scarabs as my CC element. Flayed Ones are very low on the internal power ladder in Codex: Necrons, and I think LValx has already explained why.

That said, I do appreciate the effort the OP is putting in trying to make this stuff work and trying to explain himself.

I think Ghost Arks and Monoliths both provide something to a Necron army that is unique. The Monolith is portable cover that is hardly threatened by ranged weaponry outside of lances, it also has the ability to teleport troops to where you need them in a pinch. Those are both pretty unique aspects and I can understand a player making use of that. The Ghost Ark also has some unique qualities, it offers a transport that doesnt send your troops back to reserves and it helps give cover to other Barges. I have seen good players use both units, I really haven't seen a single Flayed One at any tournament I have been to this year. AND I have seen a TON of Cron armies (I understand this is anecdotal evidence but to me this is meaningful). I really don't see a use for Flayed Ones that cannot be better filled by Wraiths, Scarabs or Spyders. I don't believe that using them as infiltrators is that advantageous because they do not have shooting weaponry. Outflanking them is a risk because they arent fast enough or ranged enough to make up for them ending up on the wrong side of the board.

I think any arguments for or against Flayed Ones will be littered with anecdotal evidence and testimonials but I do personally believe that you can look at what commonly places high at tournaments and get a feel for what units are worthwhile. DO I think that FOs can never be fielded by any general? Of course not but I do believe that they will almost always put you at a disadvantage. I feel it is intentional gimping for the purpose of being unique, which I fully understand in a meta filled with lots of spam. However, I don't think FOs are the way to be unique while maintaining a good, efficient list. In fact, FOs along with Praetorians and Doomsday Arks are probably the only things in that codex I would never bother taking. Everything else I feel can be used with good effect.


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Therion wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:How many top-placing players other than Alex Fennell have been running a Ghost Ark? Or Monolith? Or dual Lightning Field Crypteks?

I'm sorry to say but I agree with nearly all of LValx's points. As far as your statement goes I think you're making one misconception here. I for one haven't even agreed that Alex Fennel's list is any good. To be honest, I think it's utter trash. The fact he's placed high in a tournament with it doesn't make his unit choices or army composition any good. I've won a GT finals type event with vanilla Space Marines myself and in no way does it make that book particularly competitive, it just means I played decent and randomised suitable opponents and scenarios. My point being, even if I took Necrons to a GT tomorrow and got a top 5 finish with 20 Flayed Ones in my army, LValx's points about that unit being non-competitive against all the regular tournament power houses is still valid. My army would've been more competitive with 2x Wraiths and 1x Scarabs as my CC element. Flayed Ones are very low on the internal power ladder in Codex: Necrons, and I think LValx has already explained why.

That said, I do appreciate the effort the OP is putting in trying to make this stuff work and trying to explain himself.

I am glad we agree. We seem to be on a similar wavelength. I respect Fennell for taking something unique but when he faced a similar level of competition in the Adepticon Finals his list got stomped. It just wasn't quite efficient enough, IMO.

Ghost Arks and Monoliths also bring some unique weaknessess that serious gamers who don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight will avoid at all costs when assembling a WAAC AAC army. I think the only reason you've been seeing either of those units (aside from most players simply having no idea what is competitive) is that the Scythes haven't had models available to them yet and people haven't wanted to go all-footslogging. Anyway that's a little off topic.

However, I don't think FOs are the way to be unique while maintaining a good, efficient list. In fact, FOs along with Praetorians and Doomsday Arks are probably the only things in that codex I would never bother taking. Everything else I feel can be used with good effect.

Although in a sense I agree with you completely, you're still being a bit contradictory now. Flayed Ones can be used to an 'effect' as well and the original poster has explained how. They just can't be used nearly as effective as the available alternatives and that makes them useless in simple language. There's plenty other units like that in Codex Necrons than the ones you mentioned. There's nothing unique about having a garbage transport that doesn't send its passengers to reserve when it gets blown to bits, or a portable cover that makes you forfeit the tournament when you draw Dark Eldar, except playing something noone in their right mind would play. Same goes for the oversized and overpriced Dreadnought that is called the Triarch Stalker, not to forget the Destroyers etc...

@Shadar

Why are you advocating a DS scenario? It is not particularly good for the unit. Against a mech based opponent they must suffer 2 turns of shooting before getting to assault any infantry. And in fact they will be assaulted by the opponents infantry after 2 turns of shooting.

The alternative is just drive by and ignore them. Yes you can do that as a mech player unlike wraiths which have a much better force concentration and a higher threat range as well.

Against a foot based army they will get the best of their units right in the face and wont survive that. Maybe with some shooting support or cc support. Imagine 60 lasguns FRFSRF... Or Lash+Oblits or guard PBS + a little shooting and escort with chimeras, every generic bloodie assault marine squad will kill them in one turn. And i didnt talk about talon dreads or mephiston or death company.

The problem: If you deep strike, your opponent chooses what do do with them. If you outflank, you do.

Therion wrote:Ghost Arks and Monoliths also bring some unique weaknessess that serious gamers who don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight will avoid at all costs when assembling a WAAC AAC army. I think the only reason you've been seeing either of those units (aside from most players simply having no idea what is competitive) is that the Scythes haven't had models available to them yet and people haven't wanted to go all-footslogging. Anyway that's a little off topic.

However, I don't think FOs are the way to be unique while maintaining a good, efficient list. In fact, FOs along with Praetorians and Doomsday Arks are probably the only things in that codex I would never bother taking. Everything else I feel can be used with good effect.

Although in a sense I agree with you completely, you're still being a bit contradictory now. Flayed Ones can be used to an 'effect' as well and the original poster has explained how. They just can't be used nearly as effective as the available alternatives and that makes them useless in simple language. There's plenty other units like that in Codex Necrons than the ones you mentioned. There's nothing unique about having a garbage transport that doesn't send its passengers to reserve when it gets blown to bits, or a portable cover that makes you forfeit the tournament when you draw Dark Eldar, except playing something noone in their right mind would play. Same goes for the oversized and overpriced Dreadnought that is called the Triarch Stalker, not to forget the Destroyers etc...

The OP argues that using their infiltration abilities gives them a unique role within the codex, I think they fail at being "scouts" and fail at being CC specialists. Those other things, Stalkers, etc. They may be inefficient for their points but they offer, IMO, something that can be useful. I honestly cannot see any use for FOs. Well, aside from attempting to be different and unique. I have been able to use things such as Stalkers and Monoliths, but Flayed Ones were utterly useless when I tried them out. And for the record I tried out the bigger blob of them, at around 17 models. It never seemed to fulfill any purpose that I couldn't fill otherwise and they always failed at their perceived job.

I agree that the Flayed Ones fail in their roles; I just wanted to point out that our views differ in the fact that if something is points inefficient on its own and not a huge force multiplier in another way I don't care that it's one of its kind in the army book. Frankly I'm glad it is and will spend my points in the efficient units.

Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

Therion wrote:I agree that the Flayed Ones fail in their roles; I just wanted to point out that our views differ in the fact that if something is points inefficient on its own and not a huge force multiplier in another way I don't care that it's one of its kind in the army book. Frankly I'm glad it is and will spend my points in the efficient units.

Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I agree. I always tend to go for efficiency. For a friendly game I may take things that entertain me but if the goal is to win, efficiency is most important.

I agree. I always tend to go for efficiency. For a friendly game I may take things that entertain me but if the goal is to win, efficiency is most important.

Allright so then our views don't differ at all.

I'd like to add that it's cool that people make threads about how to use the units that may not see much tabletop time and are therefore entertaining to play with and against. We just can't misunderstand a discussion on how to make the most out of this points inefficient unit to mean that it would actually ever be sane to take that unit in an army that is built to have the largest chance of victory against all comers. Sometimes its the reader's misunderstanding and sometimes the guy writing the tactica has gotten a bit too in love with his uniquely succesful underdogs.

@ the OP. I want to apologize for anything belittling or sarcastic I may have said. I wasn't trying to stomp all over your thread. The above post about sums up my feelings and why I felt the need to debate the usefulness at all. I am always a fan of thinking outside of the box.

-Nazdreg- wrote:@Shadar

Why are you advocating a DS scenario? It is not particularly good for the unit. Against a mech based opponent they must suffer 2 turns of shooting before getting to assault any infantry. And in fact they will be assaulted by the opponents infantry after 2 turns of shooting.

The alternative is just drive by and ignore them. Yes you can do that as a mech player unlike wraiths which have a much better force concentration and a higher threat range as well.

Against a foot based army they will get the best of their units right in the face and wont survive that. Maybe with some shooting support or cc support. Imagine 60 lasguns FRFSRF... Or Lash+Oblits or guard PBS + a little shooting and escort with chimeras, every generic bloodie assault marine squad will kill them in one turn. And i didnt talk about talon dreads or mephiston or death company.

The problem: If you deep strike, your opponent chooses what do do with them. If you outflank, you do.

The intention was not to advocate any scenario in particular, but to highlight the choices the many deployment options offer you. Depending on who you are facing, and how they are deployed, Deep Striking with Imo, Outflanking, and infiltrating all offer unique advantages. The key is to make the right choice.


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LValx wrote:@ the OP. I want to apologize for anything belittling or sarcastic I may have said. I wasn't trying to stomp all over your thread. The above post about sums up my feelings and why I felt the need to debate the usefulness at all. I am always a fan of thinking outside of the box.

For sure, some negative, or cynical reaction is to be expected, and if properly voiced only adds to the discussion.


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Therion wrote:I agree that the Flayed Ones fail in their roles; I just wanted to point out that our views differ in the fact that if something is points inefficient on its own and not a huge force multiplier in another way I don't care that it's one of its kind in the army book. Frankly I'm glad it is and will spend my points in the efficient units.

Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

Therion, you seem to have a some arbitrarily narrow definition of what you deem to be "competitive," and I would posit that this has more to do with pre-concieved notions conducive to your play style then it does with actuall unit viability. I mean, if some one can offer clear rational distinctions and arguments for taking a unit, and be successful with that unit in a large tournament setting, and you still won't concede that unit is viable then I would say you have placed unrealistic, or impossible standards on that unit. Basically what you are saying is "I have already come to the correct conclusions in respect to this unit and no amount of evidence will sway me."

Epistemologicaly speaking I don't know if such restrictive conservatism and narrow assumptions will ever properly evaluate all viable options. As Mannahnin pointed out their are intrinsic limitations built into the current interweb discourse.

Therion wrote:Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I'm not sure that's true. The typical "most points efficient spam" lists don't tend to actually win major events here in the US. I don't know of any major event that has ever been won by a Razorback spam for instance, though I think Stelek came close once. On the other hand, unusual lists like Footdar or Mike Brandt's Straken Guard have done fairly well for themselves. It's my impression that the "most points efficient spam" lists are a good way for a new or mid-level player to get better quickly, but truly advanced and experienced players are better served by taking units that fit their playstyle and making use of unexpected or underestimated choices.

Imagine 60 lasguns FRFSRF... Or Lash+Oblits or guard PBS + a little shooting and escort with chimeras, every generic bloodie assault marine squad will kill them in one turn. And i didnt talk about talon dreads or mephiston or death company.

Wanted to speak to this statement directly, A.) 60 lasguns with FRFSRF will put a small dent in a unit of FOs, B.) I would hope and pray Oblits are shooting at my FOPs and not My Wriaths, that they can instant kill C.) Sure, ASM with a priest present can present a problem (they still aren't likely dying in one turn, and ASM without a priest could very easily go either way)...but again, no body is going to leave a unit out on an island unless their are strategic reasons for doing so.

Talon Dreads, Mephiston and Death Company are certainly problematic, as they are with 99% of units in CC. I don't think this we can say this is a unique to Flayed Ones problem.

Fetterkey wrote:

Therion wrote:Every unit always offers something -- Most of them just don't offer enough, and eventually after the pioneers have separated the wheat from the chaff all serious tournament lists gravitate towards the most points efficient spam possible.

I'm not sure that's true. The typical "most points efficient spam" lists don't tend to actually win major events here in the US. I don't know of any major event that has ever been won by a Razorback spam for instance, though I think Stelek came close once. On the other hand, unusual lists like Footdar or Mike Brandt's Straken Guard have done fairly well for themselves. It's my impression that the "most points efficient spam" lists are a good way for a new or mid-level player to get better quickly, but truly advanced and experienced players are better served by taking units that fit their playstyle and making use of unexpected or underestimated choices.

I'm sure you know what's going on out there but you might be drawing the wrong conclusions out of it. First of all, Stelek always took everything to absurd extremes which resulted in many of his lists being absolutely awful. If Dakka search goes to the time when he wasn't yet banned here you'll find me criticising nearly all of his armies.

I said the lists would gravitate towards similarity once points effectiveness had been discovered. About the tournament results you mentioned I'll say it's either a result of custom missions that favour wacky lists, or believe it or not the general level of competition being average or below average which naturally allows mediocre lists played by good generals to have success. This has nearly always been the case in every edition of the GW game systems. I think the only edition in either game where the tournaments were practically always won by real power lists was in the previous edition of Warhammer after the Daemons of Chaos had come out. The margins were simply that big that time. Lastly, don't forget that it's a common practise (atleast here) for generals who believe in their abilities to intentionally take a weaker list to a tournament just to prove that they don't need to play the cutting edge razor sharp lists that are often labeled 'cheesy' by the masses to be able to take the top prize. It's got as much to do with ego as anything else.