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Except against TH/SS termies, or Halberd GKs...which just happen to be two of the most common CC units in the game in the current meta.

So getting a 66% chance of dying versus just taking wounds is worse how?

Or durability against every shooting weapon in the game except AP 4 or better templates...

Again, getting 17% better saves that they always get to take versus needing to hug cover is worse how? Not to mention how much Flayed Ones crumble to Chimeras.

Also, Wraiths do not Infiltrate/Outflank or pinpoint DS. So...every one of the ways in which such tactical flexibility are viable...

You don't pinpoint deepstrike. Not without Imotekh anyway, and even then, the result is random. Wraiths also generally reach CC by turn 2.

Also, there are times when having a larger physical displacement is advantageous, like Bubble Wrapping for Instance.

Fair enough. Then again, Wraiths can give cover to Necron vehicles. There are advantages to both.

Anyway, certainly not saying they are overall better then Wraiths, just pointing out the needless and factually incorrect hyperbole of your statement.

Edit for clarity, like 15 times but I'll get it all out there eventually .

So basically, Flayed Ones have more wounds and can Infiltrate or Deepsrike, and bubblewrap? My apologies for leaving out these three critical advantages.

JGrand wrote:

I see. Not efficient. So, as the most efficient unit is wraiths (as an example), everyone who doesn't have a wraithwing is being inefficient? Surely, you have to agree that some army lists and strategies don't use purely what the interweb sees as the most efficient? Or are these "inefficient" units only included because there are spare points to use up?

You are twisting what I said. I never claimed Wraithwing was the only efficient build. If you want to reference a previous post, I listed a large number of things I would take in each section over Flayed Ones. But sure, I'll bite. If you are taking a close combat unit, have a Fast Attack slot open, and take Flayed Ones instead of Wraiths, you are making a mistake.

I wasn't suggesting that you were suggesting that wraith wing were the only efficient build. I was trying to show that individual preferences of what is the most efficient unit could lead to a conclusion that any list other than spamming <insert your "most efficient unit"> was "inefficient". Wraiths was a poor choice of example, should have used scarabs.

Also, I agree that for equivalent points if you have a FA slot open, you should generally take wraiths.

JGrand wrote:

I, for one, am certainly not trying to argue that FO are the best unit in the codex. The point I'm trying to make is that the issue of efficiency you keep raising seems to overlook the synergy of a unit taken as a whole with the rest of the list and the initial strategy of how you are going to play it. As I said earlier, imho, you have to take units which have the best efficiency within the list to execute the strategy you have - these aren't always going to be the most "efficient" units on a standalone basis.

I still am waiting on a list that incorporates Flayed Ones in a synergistic and efficient way. Bat reps maybe? The Vassal challenge? Again, if the OP or anyone here wants to prove something against conventional thinking, they should probably have something to go off of.

It isn't just a list, it's the tactics that go with it. As has been said, FO need more care and thought to use effectively, so a list by itself isn't going to be conclusive is it? I'll have a shot at producing a list though, maybe tonight.

JGrand wrote:So getting a 66% chance of dying versus just taking wounds is worse how?

66% chance of dying? Not sure where you are getting this, but do the math, as long as the FOs pass the first leadership test, which will be on average an 8 or under (70% chance of success) they will win the combat with relative ease. Its a much tighter combat for the Wraiths, with either side winning just barely.

Edit: I always forget about this but, Terminator armor...sweeping advance...can't do it right? Really any CC unit that can't sweeping advance removes the FOs number one Achilles heel.

Edit numero dose: The above also assumes the Terms get the charge. If the FOs get the charge it really isn't close.

Again, getting 17% better saves that they always get to take versus needing to hug cover is worse how? Not to mention how much Flayed Ones crumble to Chimeras.

The difference between a 3++ and a 4+ with RP is...well basically their isn't one, provided of course their is cover. or the weapon is AP 5 or worse, but like...you know...5th edition...cover....almost always. Also, quite a few of the weapons that go through the FOs armor also insta kill the Wraiths...which pushes the math back in the FOs favor. However you are right, despite the FOs superior point for point durability, the Wraiths not having to hug cover certainly has its advantages.

You don't pinpoint deepstrike. Not without Imotekh anyway, and even then, the result is random. Wraiths also generally reach CC by turn 2.

The way most people clump, "which unit has the BSS" is generally irrelevant. But yes, Imo certainly has huge synergistic elements with FOs. I certainly don't think I need to argue taking Imo for his own sake.

Fair enough. Then again, Wraiths can give cover to Necron vehicles. There are advantages to both.

Completely agree. Which is why having both tools available is better then homogenization.

The real problem with FO's is that they really dont threaten much in CC. You can charge 6 Long Fangs and you won't do much damage. You won't do enough damage to make it worth trading your ~200 point unit for maybe 50-100 pts worth of Fangs. If I am playing Wolves, I'll gladly have you charge some Long Fangs so that I can in turn counter charge the FO's and take them out. Outflanking unit's oughtta be able to do real damage when they come in and comparable units such as Wolf Scouts, outflanking GK units and Genestealers are BIG threats. They threaten tank lines and can easily wipe out MSU infantry squads. FO's cannot easily do either. To really have a shot at this they have to invest very high amounts of points.

You (OP) also spoke of glancing vehicles before charging them with FO's. Last I checked the average range of Necron Gauss is 12" rapid fire. This means by the time the FO's arrive there is a very good chance you aren't even in Gauss range. Most of the Cron units can't move and shoot at 24" (unless you are taking a Phaeron, which means you've foregone the CCB lord, another troublesome thing in its own right). I find the chances of you actually stunning something with Gauss to "effectively" charge is quite low.

Let's look at the usefulness of FO's vs some top codexes.

VS GK, The FO's don't want to infiltrate generally, it'll overextend them and make them an easy target from the very get-go. Thing's like incinerators can make very, very quick work of them and they are readily available to almost all GK units. If you hug cover (which you'll need to do due to AP4 from Psy-weaponry) then you slow down your FO's with no way to counteract this slowed movement (exactly why fleet and move through cover are important for dedicated CC). The bigger issue here is that your "effective" glances have almost no effect (lack of psychic defense puts you at the mercy of the opposing player failing LD10 tests). Not to mention common GK units eat the FO's alive in combat. Purifiers vs FO's is an awful match-up for FO's. Crowe DESTROYS Flayed Ones. Coteaz will allow his unit to freely shoot them (shouldn't do much damage of course, but still not a good thing). If the FO's outflank and get too close it is entirely too easy for a GK player to use their 145 pt Dreadnought to tie up your 200 pt unit and later dedicate some CC to bail out the Dread. If DCA or Paladins are present the FO's become even more useless... I'd say the FO's have little to no use against GK's due to the lack of effective targets in the backfield and a fear of common GK assault units.

VS Guard. This one is real, real funny. As JGrand pointed out, Chimeras DESTROY FO's. The FO's can come in, maybe glance a vehicle to death and then get tankshocked into a template friendly formation and roasted. Manticore's also have quite a bit of fun vs them. Not to mention Guard also have reserve manipulation to make your FO's slightly less useful. If you start the FO's in your own deployment they will never get any use, so you have to bring them close, which in turn puts you in flamer territory. Seems like a very big lose-lose situation. It is also incredibly easy for Guard to screen their important vehicles, allow their screen to be overkilled by your unit and then roast you for little to no loss.

VS SW. The biggest use here could be charging Fangs. Though this is FAR from a guarantee since the FO's can only come off the side edges. So a more centralized approach could effectively neutralize them as a threat to the Fangs. If the FO's do manage to get into combat they are far from world-beaters, on average 15 FO's will kill something around ~4 Long Fangs. In return the SW's player can easily set-up a countercharge to break the FO's and bail-out the remaining Fangs. I am not sure I would be very happy about a ~200 pt CC unit failing to thoroughly wipe out a devastator squad. That screams inefficiency to me. All this also assumes the FO's get their preferred side of the board. With outflank there is always a fair chance that the unit ends up in no-man's land. The fact that the FO's struggle to beat basic SW's troops also makes this a fairly unfavorable match-up.

VS Crons. This is the real LOL matchup and its an awfully bad army to have such a bad match-up against given that the Crons have shown to be extremely popular. If you infiltrate them they are in Wraith/Scarab range. If you outflank them you may be able to wipe cheap warrior squads but that is about all (even this shouldn't be too easy because the Cron player can just centralize their units and spread them out after you arrive), you'll probably STILL be in Wraith range as well. The FO's can't threaten the common Cron vehicles which means they have no effective duality.

VS BA. This match-up isn't great because the FO's have no way of negative FNP meaning they are generally going to be fighting a 3+/4+ save. The "duality" is going to be far worse in this matchup due to the Fast vehicles as well. Jumper angels will easily get the FO's into combat and should generally get the charge. Mephiston would roll a squad of Flayed Ones very, very easily by himself. I literally see no use for them in this match-up. The basic troops will tarpit them forever. The tanks will experience minor glancing. Neither sounds like a particularly good function.

VS DE. Wyches beat up on FO's. They are faster and have a much, much bigger threat radius (if in a Raider they have up to a 26.5" threat range). If they have FNP you will be fighting a 4+/4+ save. Once again the "duality" isn't very effective here. The average DE vehicle moves 12" consistently and therefore will require you to hit on 6s and GLANCE on 6s. If you are hugging cover you should rarely be getting all of your FO's into a vehicle so expecting any significant damage against fast vehicles seems to be a long-shot.

So against top armies I see the FO's having some minor uses against Wolves and that is just about it. Some of the codexes I didn't mention should also have a fair chance at beating up on them (Tyranids come to mind, as do Mechdar and Footdar builds).

Against the top codexes the FO's will have to face units that can beat them without too much effort. Good generals won't sit there and allocate weak CC infantry units at your FO's and the FO's aren't quite fast enough to pick and choose their battles at their own leisure. So you have to take into account the sorts things that FO's will be fighting. The top codexes have efficient and popular units that can easily deal with a unit like FO's. Purifiers, Wraiths, Grey Hunters, FNP ASM, Wyches, Chimeras, etc. The whole point of dedicated CC units is generally to shred infantry units. Once again the FO's fail at this task while similar units excel. 15 FO's outflanking should not make a marine player nervous, it certainly doesn't make ME nervous. 15 outflanking Genestealers DEFINITELY makes me nervous because they will both threaten tanks and easily wipe out my marine squads. Why fill your list with something that YOU don't need. If you want disruptive CC units that are also durable, THEY ARE AVAILABLE. Wraiths fulfill, literally, the same exact function. They may not outflank or infiltrate but they are so fast and mobile that you can use them in the same exact matter and they will be far, far better at their job. If you decide to take Wraiths and FOs you've used them in a redundant matter because Wraiths require a substantial points investment that eats into your ability to actually open up metal boxes. If you eschew Wraiths then it should be assumed that you are not taking a CC based army at which point the FO's shouldn't be used anyway because it would be more important to emphasize your shooting by building around redundant firepower. If you decide to spam vehicles the Stalker is a much better choice since it adds AV saturation. If there is a shooting Cron army that effectively utilizes FO's i'd like to see it.

Once again. FO's may be a fun unit but I don't think you can categorize them as competitive. Just because a good general can make some use of them does not make them efficient or competitive. They are a handicap for anyone who takes them, in any list you build for them. If you prefer to challenge yourself that is fine and dandy but don't act like they are something that they are not. There is a reason why people perceive them to be poor. It is immediately recognizable when you read the Cron codex that FO's are an all-around poor choice. Their stats DO NOT resemble a dedicated CC unit yet that is their designed purpose.

How do flayed ones do against the other armies? Since I rarely see them all I can do is mathammer for them, and against things like Boyz and Genestealers it just doesn't look good for them.

LValx wrote:The real problem with FO's is that they really dont threaten much in CC. You can charge 6 Long Fangs and you won't do much damage. You won't do enough damage to make it worth trading your ~200 point unit for maybe 50-100 pts worth of Fangs. If I am playing Wolves, I'll gladly have you charge some Long Fangs so that I can in turn counter charge the FO's and take them out. Outflanking unit's oughtta be able to do real damage when they come in and comparable units such as Wolf Scouts, outflanking GK units and Genestealers are BIG threats. They threaten tank lines and can easily wipe out MSU infantry squads. FO's cannot easily do either. To really have a shot at this they have to invest very high amounts of points.

So the FO's are going to charge the Long Fangs, kill 4 (it's closer to 5...but I'll run with 4 for funsies), and then die instantly to the CC unit that charges them? They are not going to kill anything else? Is that what your saying. After the first turn, they are just gonna toggle attacks to off and give up? And what are they getting counter charged by? And why isn't that unit dealing with the Wraiths/Scarabs/Tomb Spyders/DLord with Triarch Praetorians (just to get an idea of my list)?

And one more thing, the fact they don't annihilate things in one round of CC is a good thing. It is how CC units should be designed. For obvious reasons.

Your entire post is "what if the Flayed Ones were in the worst possible position imaginable, how good would they be then?" Like GKs and incinerators...cause like, everybody goes for those over the Psycannons right? Or Purifiers, cause I didn't bring any Tomb Spyders with Gloom Prisms right? Or Dark Eldar, cause like the entire rest of my army isn't going to be able to take down those paper air planes so that FOs can make quick death of the squishy warriors/trueborn right (or I could get counter charged from the wyches...in which case both of us our going to throw crap at each other for the rest of the game because its tar pit versus tar pit)? Same against guard, I'm just gonna charge headlong into their vehicles and not wait until the squishy guard are footslogging around right? Or against Necrons, so MY Wraiths and scarabs are just gonna sit by and spectate while HIS Wraiths and Scarabs chomp on my Flayed Ones? Also, FOs will easily beat scarabs in CC, even if scarabs get the charge...so again, you are assuming something that isn't backed up by reality. AND, outside of Wraiths, I am more then happy sending them against EVERY OTHER NONE VEHICLE UNIT IN THE NECRON CODEX. Against DA, yes, if I'm a complete slow and don't kill the priests and let the FOs operate on an island without Wraith or Scarab support their ASM can prove problematic.



99% of the time Flayed Ones are going to be placed after the enemy deploys...so you look at there deployment...and you access your brain.

Me: "Hey brain, where can I place the Flayed Ones so they have a good chance of tying up/eliminating something that is threatening to the rest of my list"

Either:

A.) Brain: tabulation...tabulation "Here"

or

B.) Brain: "Not good matchups currently, with X on the board, hold them in reserve and DS them so that by the time they arrive X may be eliminated."

Me: "Well played brain, wish I had though of that."

Meanwhile

The opponent is having to deploy with my 15 Flayed Oens in mind. Will he clump together? Will he refuse flank? Will he completely ignore them?
I know how to take advantage of all of the above...much better then he does...because no-one plays Flayed Ones .



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:How do flayed ones do against the other armies? Since I rarely see them all I can do is mathammer for them, and against things like Boyz and Genestealers it just doesn't look good for them.

The math was laid out earlier for the boys but it comes down to whoever gets the charge wins. Against GS the GS take some casualties but win with the charge, the FOs win, by a very small margin, if they get the charge.

But all of these examples are in a silly vacuum that ignores the FOs primary advantage versus these units, resiliency and multiple turns of Night Fighting. Boyz and GS die in droves to bolter fire...not a problem for the FOs, so more FOs should generally reach CC in the first place.

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

Rightt... so your list includes:
Wraiths
Praetorians
Dlord
Flayed Ones
Scarabs
Spyders

How exactly do you deal with vehicles? That right there is roughly ~1k invested in CC. Relying on CC to open transports is a bad idea. Lets see your wonderful list because I am quite sure that you've built a completely imbalanced list. Who needs five CC units, at least 2 of which are awful? I'll assume you take Imotekh in this list since you keep talking about him. So Imotekh and a Crono-tek, along with minimum warriors will put you at ~1500, assuming you take ~3 Spyders, 8-10 Scarabs, 6 Wraiths, 5 Praetorians, 1 Dlord with resorb and scythe and a big block of FO's. With a list like this you have almost no way to peel open transports outside of Imotekh (who can't be relied on since he is completely random). From what little I can make of your list it is truly awful. If you think Praetorians are honestly worth taking then you are probably beyond helping because that unit is about as bad as they come. So 1500 Points has bought you:
~35 models with no shooting outside of Imotekh's ability. By taking both Imotekh and a Dlord you are eschewing arguably the best unit in the entire codex (CCB lord). Good job. You've taken out one of the few reliable 'Cron anti-tank sources. I doubt you are fitting in too many lances at their cost. You are limited to either 1-2 Annihilation Barges (which in this case would hardly be a good fit since you seem to be mech-phobic) or an Ark or Scythe, though on your budget these should be a little too steep in cost.

You've completely ignored the best synergy available in the entire Cron codex which is AV13 and Wraiths en masse. This is a great strategy because the same sort of firepower that easily kills Wraiths (Str8+) is needed to penetrate and destroy those pesky Barges. Your list gives an obvious target for Str 8 whilst also providing excellent targets for lower strength weaponry.

Incinerators are definitely a rarity, ill give you that one. How is Gloom Prism magically reaching across the board to your infiltrated flayed ones or outflanking flayed ones? Are you going to string them out? Well then you miss out on attacks and have a larger chance of them being beaten and swept.

I don't see you dealing with 12+ fast vehicles too easily with a list that is fairly reliant on CC to open up vehicles. It isn't difficult to screen your vehicles with other vehicles/infantry.

None of these scenarios are doomsday scenarios. If you wanted "worst case possible" situations I would have listed better things like TWC charging, DCA charging, etc. Instead I listed VERY COMMON units that can deal with the FOs with either minimal effort, or a small bit of inconvenience. GH's, Purifiers, Crowe, Chimeras, Wyches, FNP ASMs, Manticores... None of these units are particularly rare to see. They are very, very common units and they all fare well against the FOs.

What in the GK codex are you really threatening with FO's? How are you peeling open AV12? How are you opening mass AV11? I see little to no potential to take much anti tank if you are wasting premier points on inefficient CC.

I'd agree that not annihilating things in CC is a good thing, if your unit can actually threaten others in CC to begin with. Having your FO's stuck in combat with some Long Fangs and then having them counter-charged by a larger squad of GH's is not a good situation for you to be in. At this point you've been weakened ever so slightly, but bigger is the fact that you will have dropped back down to your base attack of 3. At this point the GH's should really be able to put quite a hurting on you. And once again, this all assumes that the wolf player didnt deny you the ability to get the FO's into CC. This isn't all that difficult to do given that you can deploy centrally to avoid outflanking. Infiltration is also not terribly difficult to stop since the majority of SWs players take Rune Priests and they can easily grab a useful Chooser of the Slain.

GK can grab Servo Skulls to noodle with your infiltrating, they can also Warp Quake your deep strike. Guard want your FO's to be close to their armored lines. And let's get real, against Guard the FO's will overkill just about any unit they touch and then be exposed to one of the 8-12 heavy flamers they like to tote around on Chimera hulls.

You are right about the Scarab fight, I completely forgot about them having the same initiative. The problem with a lot of the better Cron lists is that they are basically vehicle spam backed by troops and Wraiths. So what in that list are the FO's really going to engage?

No one plays Flayed Ones because they are bad. And that is a very nice way to put it.

As stated by myself and others. If you want to prove something go ahead and play it out. I'd love to do that. Very, very, very badly. Unlike you I don't intend to simply hide behind my keyboard and spout off nonsense. I would be very happy to have a match and put my money where my mouth is by demonstrating just how awful a sub-par, CC-based list is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Since you are so steadfast in your admiration of FOs and their ability to be useful i'd say it is safe to assume that you playtest them frequently. Take some of that time out of your regular playtesting, download Vassal for FREE, get the 40k module and let's have a game. You have no reason to not be able to. It is a free program, it runs on Mac OSX as well as Windows and is fairly easy to use. We have debated this enough and can solve this a little easier by putting them to a legitimate test and seeing what their usefulness actually is. Hell, we can do a best of 3, best of 5 in order to get a larger sample sizing. I can use various codexes to demonstrate their uselessness against different common builds.

LOL.

I don't even think we are speaking the same language anymore. If you don't think Wraith/TPs/DLords/Scarabs + Imo and a healthy dose of Gauss shooting can open up vehicles then you simply haven't ever tried. How do you the Wraith Wings and Scarab Farms open vehicles...by spitting on them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Since you are so steadfast in your admiration of FOs and their ability to be useful i'd say it is safe to assume that you playtest them frequently. Take some of that time out of your regular playtesting, download Vassal for FREE, get the 40k module and let's have a game. You have no reason to not be able to. It is a free program, it runs on Mac OSX as well as Windows and is fairly easy to use. We have debated this enough and can solve this a little easier by putting them to a legitimate test and seeing what their usefulness actually is. Hell, we can do a best of 3, best of 5 in order to get a larger sample sizing. I can use various codexes to demonstrate their uselessness against different common builds.

If have the opportunity to take you up on this I promise I will. Newborn at home and being at work...at work have placed strong limitations on my playing time, and the fact that I've never used Vassal and am completely un accustomed to it's idiosyncrasies will play in your favor regardless, but none the less I'll see if we can do it some time before 6th comes out. I think you'll be surprised by the results.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kain wrote:
I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

...if they get the charge...

Kain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

1. That is called "moving the goal posts". You mention ALL these things AND the Broodlord, and that is used to enhance your argument. Not cricket, my good man.

2. You are still comparing a 380 point unit to a 260 one.

Realistically you have to give Genestealers the charge. Fleet, MtC and infiltrate will do that.

I have to say I have been following this thread with interest. I think Shadar has brought up some interesting points but ultimately Flayed Ones are not competitive.

Lvalx made some very good points earlier on this page. Pit FO's against some of the most common (and competitive) enemies on the table and you see them struggle. Genestealers, Purifiers, Guard Heavy Flamers and Wyches.

FO's are not a dedicated CC unit (though lack of ranged weapons can make this hard to see). They are a disruptive unit and a mediocre one at that. No fleet means that anything that can move 12" or more can simply outrun them. BA, Crons and DE would run rings around them. The static units you would like them to go after (like Long Fangs or Lootaz) are, if run by a competent general, going to hidden behind some sort of screen and hard to get at. Deepstrike leaves them open to a round of firing before they engage anything and if your opponent simply backs away you are looking at more rounds of fire.

The biggest issue with them IMO is that the Necron codex has a plethora of options to play with...none of which require disruption. You can play the long ranged game, you can go full cc, you can bring an AV13 wall. With each of these I think the points are better spent supporting these main elements rather than incorporating something off base. There really is no need to put points (and a lot of points at that) into a massive shambling horde of FO's. They are slow, they fulfill no dedicated role and don't score (just adding that since if they did score you would probably see them played a lot more).

There probably are lists out there that can make use of FO's, but I would bet that they are used in smaller numbers. Kind of like Lootaz. Smaller squad sizes keeps them alive longer. Still not sure they would accomplish much, but I can see them being incorporated into the right kind of list.

Therion wrote:

I suppose next you are going to tell me wraith lords are crap, as are tyranids and monoliths. What you are forgetting is that not everything is numbers on paper, The way you play and use them is what really determines their worth. I could see myself playing a list with them, some people could not and that is fine. I regularly won with a tyranids warrior based list I think monoliths are good as long as you remember they are different than they used to be. Wraithlords were in the "gakky" footdar list

Wow. The guy explained himself in as simple terms as its humanly possible and yet you didn't get anything he said. We understand that you like playing with points inefficient units and bad armies but don't even try to claim that just because you can use garbage against garbage the other options wouldn't still be a lot better. If you want to make this a discussion about why we all should use garbage in our armies I think you should make a new thread. It'll no doubt be an interesting read.

Interesting so you counter my argument saying that these so called "points inefficient units" are garbage and that I make gakky lists? I never said they were the best, my friends and I however like to actually try units on the table to see if we can make them work before jumping on bandwagon and saying they are an awful army.

When did I say I thought they were garbage? That is your view and you are trying to super impose it on what I said.

Still let me break it down:

Points efficiency is only as good as how well it works for the general who uses it. Now if you want to continue in your automaton responses and stances on units, feel free. However this thread was meant to focus on how we could use a unit considered subpar effectively. I find it interesting how many of the most recent reports I see making the headlines are unconventional non-net lists. Now that may be a minority, representing the increased attention these types of lists get, still it makes it a possibility. So since your decision is already made what are you even doing in this thread since you have nothing constructive to contribute?

Kain wrote:How do flayed ones do against the other armies? Since I rarely see them all I can do is mathammer for them, and against things like Boyz and Genestealers it just doesn't look good for them.

Out of interest, how many boyz? Shootas or Sluggas? Who got the charge?

Because 30 boyz, not all of them are going to get into combat during that first round.

Doing the mathhammer - 15 flayed ones assault a unit of 30 boyz. 20 boyz get into combat via reaction. Result - 2nd round of assault win, 2/3rds of the flayed ones left.

Somehow manage to get all 30 in (I doubt it, since it's extremely rare I get even 20 slugga boyz into combat)? Sluggas still lose, with just above a 3rd of the flayed ones remaining.

Both of these included that nob with the Powerklaw, by the way

One must remember that when charged, Orks only hit at str3. Combine that with 4+ saves, leadership 10, reanimation protocols, plus fearless wounds the Orks will suffer, it's not in their favour at all.

If the Orks charge? If 20-30 get in, that's the Flayed ones done with - but 20-30 Slugga boyz decimate everything that's t4 and lower when they charge.

THAT SAID, if flayed ones are charged by trukk boys (12 sluggas with a PK nob), and pass that first leadership test (since they will lose that first round of combat), they will undoubtedly win with likely more than half left standing.

Scarab farm lists build to critical mass, i.e., 8-9 spyders and wait till turn 3 giving ~30 scarabs. This is good but, imo, not great at opening boxes. Simply too easy to screen vehicles. I speak from experience as ive played against them frequently.
Most cron players use ccbs/anni barges and lances to open mech. Jgrand does this and I can tell you after facing crons many, many times that the ccb is the most efficient vehicle killer in that codex.

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

Kain wrote:20 flayed ones, meet 20 genestealers who will ignore your armour save one time out of six, have better initiative, can have furious charge to wound you on a 3+ and/or toxin sacs for rerollable 4+ wounds, and scything talons to reroll 1s, in addition to the Broodlord.

So you are comparing a 260 point units (Flayed Ones) with a 486 point unit (Genestealers)?

I am sure the end result is a surprise to all of us.

I didn't use the broodlord in my calculations, as it would be overkill. And also just toxin sacs and scything talons are sufficient enough, heck naked genestealers would still crush flayed ones in combat.

1. That is called "moving the goal posts". You mention ALL these things AND the Broodlord, and that is used to enhance your argument. Not cricket, my good man.

2. You are still comparing a 380 point unit to a 260 one.

When I mentioned the broodlord, I'm saying that it was something the Genestealers could take, notice how it was not once mentioned in the actual calculations.

Genestealers cost 14 points, toxin sacs add two points, scything talons add two points, that's 360 points, your math is off. For a hundred points more I can have a unit that is vastly more versatile, much faster, synergizes better with the rest of the army, and doesn't overly compete with better options in it's slots. The Flayed one competes with the Lychguards and Stalkers, who are both probably better options most of the time, and heck, depending on the enemy; Deathmarks are a better choice.

Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

66% chance of dying? Not sure where you are getting this, but do the math, as long as the FOs pass the first leadership test, which will be on average an 8 or under (70% chance of success) they will win the combat with relative ease. Its a much tighter combat for the Wraiths, with either side winning just barely.

Meant to say 66% chance of saving aka the 3++. Flayed Ones get no save versus power weapons/fists.

Edit: I always forget about this but, Terminator armor...sweeping advance...can't do it right? Really any CC unit that can't sweeping advance removes the FOs number one Achilles heel.

Edit numero dose: The above also assumes the Terms get the charge. If the FOs get the charge it really isn't close.

SS TH Termies almost always have the Land Raider, so I'd assume Flayed Ones won't likely be charging in real games. But at least they can glance it...oh....

The difference between a 3++ and a 4+ with RP is...well basically their isn't one, provided of course their is cover. or the weapon is AP 5 or worse, but like...you know...5th edition...cover....almost always. Also, quite a few of the weapons that go through the FOs armor also insta kill the Wraiths...which pushes the math back in the FOs favor. However you are right, despite the FOs superior point for point durability, the Wraiths not having to hug cover certainly has its advantages.

So now we're also losing a CCB Lord in order to throw a Res Orb in there...ok. I'd agree with cover almost always. Still, you are getting close with Flayed Ones, and charging vehicles (apparently) so you won't always have it.

The way most people clump, "which unit has the BSS" is generally irrelevant. But yes, Imo certainly has huge synergistic elements with FOs. I certainly don't think I need to argue taking Imo for his own sake.

But it's against a random unit that you don't DS. You don't pick.

Completely agree. Which is why having both tools available is better then homogenization.

Or you could just spend the points on the myriad of better units in the codex...

Hey, Waitaminnit - Lvatx, Vassal? Dude, I'll totally take that!! I can fit these guys into my list no problem.

No, I don't use them currently, but guys, this isn't a stretch. We have to fill out our lists, particularly 2k lists, particularly Imotekh lists, with a few borderline units. We've got a choice, but the choice doesn't include Wraiths or Scarabs or Annihilation Barges or CCB's or Spyders or lions or tigers and bears, oh my! Those are *gone*. We've filled those slots *up* in some way. We have a kind of scruffy set of choices left. Shooty-centric doesn't work so good with Imotekh, either - Lanceteks and whatnot, I have a bunch of list flavors I try but the current one uses a C'Tan kitted for combat (no sissy WW crap, lol) that I could probably swap out for the Flayed Ones without a huge change in tactics.

Some of you all's criticisms are valid, but some aren't well founded. Again, you're not considering effectiveness differential, you're all over the map on your comparisons. You have a very very limited set of units and capabilities to choose from at the point you're even considering FO's.

We have to fill out our lists, particularly 2k lists, particularly Imotekh lists, with a few borderline units.

No, we really don't. In 2K pts the fast and heavy are filled, sure, but any extra points you got hanging can go into more HQ and/or Night Scythes for every troops unit if they didn't already have them. You'd really have to go to 3K pts before we enter the 'we must buy something from the elites slot' and even then we only begin the discussion whether Flayed Ones is really what we need or if we should go with veiling Lychguard, Stalkers or whatever else.

Therion wrote:

We have to fill out our lists, particularly 2k lists, particularly Imotekh lists, with a few borderline units.

No, we really don't. In 2K pts the fast and heavy are filled, sure, but any extra points you got hanging can go into more HQ and/or Night Scythes for every troops unit if they didn't already have them. You'd really have to go to 3K pts before we enter the 'we must buy something from the elites slot' and even then we only begin the discussion whether Flayed Ones is really what we need or if we should go with veiling Lychguard, Stalkers or whatever else.

The HQ slot is one of the first filled out, the NightScythes don't work (except one for objective grabbing) for certain list philosophies, particularly one where you're prolonging the engagement rather than early MTO style assaults, like you do. I've already posted my core on this thread, Therion - you seem pretty sharp on Necron army construction, the key difference between your philosophy and mine is that I avoid decisive engagement as long as possible. That makes Scarabs relatively more attractive, and Scythes relatively less. Given that, at 2k, yep, you're in the position of evaluating which specialist units to pick.

Imotekh based farming lists are also fairly starved for points. Imotekh + chronotek is ~300 and then i'd say it isnt an awful idea to take at least one pulse to insure 3-4 turns of night fight. So that core alone is around 350. Spyders and scarabs is another 400-500. A second hq, lets assume ccb lord is ~200. So now you sit around 1k without having filled out troops/fa/heavy. You really shouldnt be pressed to include a unit such as FOs. I also find that relying on scarabs to demech can be a risky move since many units can make quick work of the scarabs once disembarked. I do think the strategy can be highly effective against certain builds but I would hesitate to say it is the best TAC build a cron player can use. I still think a few scythes would be better as they can sit back and turbo into range whenever they need to. If using cc to demech were any good you'd see better overall results from armies like daemons and nids, who rely too heavily on cc for demeching.

I'd gladly play randall, send me a PM and we can set something up.

LValx wrote:I. I also find that relying on scarabs to demech can be a risky move since many units can make quick work of the scarabs once disembarked.

If my scarabs eat whatever it is that I set them to eat=Thats it. They paid for themselves. I dont care if you leave them alone, annihilate then with 17 flamers it doesnt matter. They did what i placed them on the board for. Even so, if you plasma cannon the heck out of them and wipe them out, thats it, they paid for themselves.

When i go into battle i dont expect every single model to come off the board at the end standing up. If i field 11 necron flyers, i dont expect 11 to come off the board at the end of the game. I think its the same idea for flayed ones, putting a little pressure in different areas. As it is, people are comfortable with what necrons do now. They cause night fighting, get in shooting range and shoot. People expecting that to be the typical thing will have to adjust to flayed ones outflanking. They may eat the gak, die by your 5 tac squad boltering them up/whatever.

LValx wrote:Imotekh based farming lists are also fairly starved for points. Imotekh + chronotek is ~300 and then i'd say it isnt an awful idea to take at least one pulse to insure 3-4 turns of night fight. So that core alone is around 350. Spyders and scarabs is another 400-500. A second hq, lets assume ccb lord is ~200. So now you sit around 1k without having filled out troops/fa/heavy. You really shouldnt be pressed to include a unit such as FOs. I also find that relying on scarabs to demech can be a risky move since many units can make quick work of the scarabs once disembarked. I do think the strategy can be highly effective against certain builds but I would hesitate to say it is the best TAC build a cron player can use. I still think a few scythes would be better as they can sit back and turbo into range whenever they need to. If using cc to demech were any good you'd see better overall results from armies like daemons and nids, who rely too heavily on cc for demeching.

I'd gladly play randall, send me a PM and we can set something up.

Well, we should just play anyway, I have time coming up and they added the Necron stuffs, I need to try it out.

I already posted my core, here it is again. Points works like: (no list builder, just typin' em in but very close)
(315) Imotekh + Chrono + Pulsetek 225+40+55
(210) CCB OLord mss ws sw
(390) 6xSpyer, AB
(440) 6xWraith, (2)6xScarab
--------------------------------------
1355 core HQ/FA/HS slots

Some wiggle room, sometimes I go pure Scarab Farm, sometimes I go MTO and swap Imo + Scarab/Wraiths for something like what jy2 takes including a full AB loadout == AV13 plus Wraiths, but I enjoy the challenge of "lurking" behind terrain and reacting to de-meched lightning victims. Basic theory is you're going to get 3 turns of lightning, and the odds of then getting it on turn 4 are 55%. By then there's a 52% chance *each unengaged enemy unit* will get struck *at least once* by lightning. (i know captain obvious, just explaining why i do what i do.)

But from this 1355 base, let's face it - we have to take some troops, but they're also marginal units. So at this point you're faced with the tradeoffs. I usually get one more Lancetek, but don't work particularly well with Imotekh, honestly a C'Tan isn't bad, Scythes have a habit of dying on me in the first three turns for the simple reason the enemy doesn't have many other targets if I'm doing it right so the flat-out cover doesn't guarantee they're off the to-do list. Sooo, FO's aren't the worst thing in the world.

Aside - when the balloon goes up, Scarabs and Spyders more than pull their weight against vehicles, and they are a team - you don't consider them separately. No vehicle or set of vehicles under any circumstances can take a multiassault from a late-game mature scarab farm unit, it's more a problem of delaying and then getting the targets to clump up. Basically it's delayed-MTO here, you have to bring it all together at the same time. AV13 is easier, this guerrilla fighting is more satisfying. (Unless Imo just goes off, in which case you have to deal with whining.)

must... work...

My issue with the scarabs is that when you sink ~500+ points into the engine you need to kill a fair amount to make the investment worth it. Killing 2-3 rhinos would be inefficient. When I face scarab heavy lists i'll usually screen more important vehicles with more expendable ones allowing me to minimize damage. Thats why I think foregoing shooting is very risky.

Indeed, considering scarabs are so fast that night fighting isnt going to help them, unless you hold them back for the first few turns to build up mass, and then send them forward in a huge wave.

Kain wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

Actually...they won't.

Here is the most likely scenario:

You place the Flayed Ones in cover somewhere between the Genestealers (or where they are likely coming from if Outflanking) and your Warriors (or some other shooting based unit you don't want tangling with the GS).

The Genestealers can either:

A.) Assault your FOs in cover...and lose

B.) Try to ignore the FOs and run past, getting assaulted the next turn and ultimately losing.

C.) Go out of there way to to stay out of the assault range of the FOs, delaying their arrival at the Warriors, get shot to pieces by Gauss Flayers, and die.

Flayed Ones should only be used offensively if facing an army where such tactics are appropriate. If not (like say fighting a primarily CC based force), using them defensively to keep your Warriors/Immortals alive is perfectly acceptable. I honestly think this is the biggest "problem" with FOs...you have to use your brain. They aren't a wind up Electronic Football toy like a CCB where you just point it at stuff and say "kill."


Speaking of the CCB, I was thinking today how LValx and JGrand consider it the most amazingly efficient optimized unit ever in the history of Necrons and should be double tapped into every "competitive TAC list".

Now, it is certainly a very good vehicle killer (although an equal costed DLord has better odds against any vehicle not moving cruising speed and is significantly better in CC).

However, in a null vehicle list, the CCB is a very in-efficient use of points. So against Green Tide, Nob Bikers, ALL Nids, ALL Demons, many GK builds, many DA builds, some Necron Builds, many BA builds...etc...he is a rather poor point investment...

Does this mean that you shouldn't take CCBs? Of course not. Does this mean using the "some units in army X present problems for unit Y" is an absurdly ridiculous argument? I would say so.

Kain wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:

1. That is called "moving the goal posts". You mention ALL these things AND the Broodlord, and that is used to enhance your argument. Not cricket, my good man.

2. You are still comparing a 380 point unit to a 260 one.

When I mentioned the broodlord, I'm saying that it was something the Genestealers could take, notice how it was not once mentioned in the actual calculations.

Genestealers cost 14 points, toxin sacs add two points, scything talons add two points, that's 360 points, your math is off. For a hundred points more I can have a unit that is vastly more versatile, much faster, synergizes better with the rest of the army, and doesn't overly compete with better options in it's slots. The Flayed one competes with the Lychguards and Stalkers, who are both probably better options most of the time, and heck, depending on the enemy; Deathmarks are a better choice.

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Kain wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Toxin sacs are 3 points.

Ah, his math would still be off, and even then naked genestealers can more or less clear flayed ones off the table when they get the charge, and they will.

Are you for real?

First you begin moving the goal posts.
Then you claim that my math is off as if that invalidates what I have said.
You are then told that my math is NOT off.

And what is your answer??

"His math is still off".


Really?

And 20 (naked) Genestealers (280) clear 20 Flayed Ones (260) off of the table?

Lets look at that, and allow me to make an assumption of my own.
Since you assume that the Genestealers get the charge (due to Fleet) I will assume that you are making a difficult terrain test when you charge (due to either terrain or Necron special rules).

Round 1

20 Genestealers
20 Flayed Ones

Flayed Ones (20)
60 Attacks - 30 Hits - 15 Wounds - 10 dead Genestealers

Genestealers (10)
30 Attacks - 20 Hits - 10 Wounds - 6 dead Flayed Ones (4 fail armour-saves + 2 rending hits)

2 Flayed Ones stand back up.

Round 2

10 Genestealers
16 Flayed Ones

Genestealers (10)
30 Attacks - 20 Hits - 10 Wounds - 6 dead Flayed Ones (as above)

Flayed Ones (10)
30 Attacks - 15 hits - 8 Wounds - 5 dead Genestealers

2 Flayed Ones stand back up

Round 3

5 Genestealers
12 Flayed Ones

Genestealers (5)
10 Attacks - 7 Hits - 3 Wounds - 2 dead Flayed Ones

Flayed Ones (10)
30 Attacks - 15 Hits - 7 Wounds - 5 dead Genestealers

No Flayed Ones stand back up.

Combat over.

8 Flayed Ones remaining.
This is not "clearing off of the table", now is it?
At best you can hope for mutual destruction.

Do you wish to move the goal posts further?



...

The math is a little more complicated than that and some of your numbers are indeed off. 20 hits is going to result in an average of at least 3 rendings. I decided to do a breakdown of a few different builds of genestealers

On the Charge
Each Genestealer with rending and toxic is doing 1 wound per turn 5.882 wounds per 100 points spent. 3.92 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending and scything is doing .778 wounds per turn 4.8625 wounds per 100 points spent. 3.24 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending scything and toxin sacs is doing 1.167 wounds per turn 6.142 wounds per 100 points spent 4.095 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending scything and furious charge is doing .972 wounds per turn 5.116 wounds per 100 points spent 3.41 after resurrection protocols

Each Flayed one does .667 wounds per turn or 5.13 wounds per 100 points

Not on the Charge
Each Genestealer with rending and toxic is doing .667 wounds per turn 3.923 wounds per 100 points spent. 2.61 after resurrection protocols
Each Genestealer with rending and scything is doing .519 wounds per turn 3.244 per 100 points spent 2.16 after get back up
Each Genestealer with rending scything and toxin sacs is doing .778 wounds per turn 4.095 per 100 points spent 2.73 after get back up
Each Genestealer with rending scything and furious charge is doing .519 wounds per turn 2.373 wounds per point 1.582 after get back up

Each flayed one is going to do .50 wounds per turn. or 3.846 wounds per 100 points spent

So in a vacuum, other than on the charge genestealers are actually worse per point than flayed ones in combat. Now factor in things like initiative and yes they become much better based on killing power. Who would have thunk it huh?

Now lets take another look at the above scenario, Genestealers with rending scything and toxin sacs were the most efficient at killing per point, however I decided to go with the rending/toxin sacs combo because they are charging into cover and that would really work against the more expensive unit.

To make the points for the units even I had 17 flayed ones versus 13 genestealers

17 flayed ones: 8.5 dead genestealers
4.5 Genestealers: 4.5 wounds
Genestealers lose two more to no retreat, 1.5 flayed ones get back up

14 flayed ones against 4.5 remaining genestealers

4.5 genestealers: 3 downed flayed ones
11 flayed ones: 5.5 wounds

Genestealers wiped out, 12 flayed ones left

That is an accurate point for point combat, now if the flayed ones are not in cover it is a whole new deal

13 genestealers: 13 downed flayed ones
4 flayed ones: 2 dead genestealers

Flayed ones break and are killed