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First, thread topic was just a light hearted jab, the reason for this thread is the fact that 6 months after the Dex release I see the "Flayed Ones are bad" meme has taken a hold of quite a few otherwise good, or at least seemingly good because I haven't actually played any of you, players.


Second, this was inspired by a recent thread in the Army List where a poster had FOs in his list and was lambasted by the majority for the audacity of having something different, or against the prevalent interweb grain. It just irks me when people attack somebody when it's obvious that they really haven't taken the time to consider a unit and are carbon copying what they've read that another poster posted, or read on a blog, written by some one originally who doesn't even play the codex in question to begin with. (I know this isn't always the case, by a great majority of codex reviews are written by bloggers who don't play that codex). I just don't understand why people can't respond with a little decorum (on the forum ), and say something like "That's an interesting take on army composition X," instead of "Well I've never actually played with that unit but the interwebs told me it was bad so you must be a complete newb even bringing it to the discussions, durhur derp." If people were going around saying the sky was green, and shouting down and making fun of anyone who said it was blue, the prevailing consensus would quickly become the sky is green, irridisunregadless of the validity of the statement. This, in a very brief synopsis, is memetics.

Anyway, all of that aside...the meat and potatoes of the thread.

I'll let the infinite wisdom of the interwebs educate you of the Flayed Ones perceived weaknesses, cause Khorn only knows there already is plenty of discourse of this nature. So, some of their strengths:

1.) Flayed Ones are tied with Warriors on a point for point basis as the most resilient base against the widest variety of weaponry in the entire codex. This means, if you can get them to shoot at the Flayed Ones (and every gun on your opponents side is going to be shooting at something) then they are inefficiently using every bullet. This is a difficult concept for many to embrace, but it works out in your favor.

2.) Flayed Ones are the only unit in the Dex that can infiltrate, and they have the obvious extra capability to deep strike which can be augmented by 2 different HQ's (Nemesor and Imothek). In fact, they are one of the few units that has zero down side to using Nemies phased reinforcements (the reason for this should be obvious).

3.) They are your only real Horde CC unit (scarabs kind of fit this role, but in a different manner). This means that units that are vulnerable to Horde CC (TH/SS termies the text book example) are going to be at a disadvantage against them.

4.) You can, and should, bring them big. Like 15 to 20 big. I think this is the number one reason for most of the negative perception. They enter a scene where MSU is king and they are intrinsically not optimized for that style of list construction. This combined with their deployment options (particularly infiltrate) can give them a massive threat range.

5.) They are more mobile then people realize. RP adds about 3" to their mobility, giving them roughly a 15" assault range, provided they are being shot at. If they are not being shot at, well, that means your dedicated CC unit that you deployed in your opponents face is not being shot (=win).

6.) They synergise well with a Destroyer Lord packing a res orb, which needs a whole thread of its own to properly appreciate, but suffice it to say a very under utilized and versatile unit, as it can jump its res orb goodness from unit to unit as required.

7.) As previously mentioned, they synergise quite well with Imo (3 to 4 turns of nightfighting that doesn't gimp them at all, and pin point DS) and Nemesor (phased reinforcements, Furious Charge/Counter Attack/Stealth granted to 15 to 20 bases at once).

8.) They are a perfect anvil to the hammer in quick strike Wraith Wing/Scarab Farm lists (using their large footprint as an area denial limiting the real estate the faster CC units have to cover).

9.) They are your most ideal at contesting objectives in your opponents deployment zone due to their high level or resilience coupled with their CC ability (versus Warriors/Immortals who can fold quite quickly to anything in CC).

10.) While this applies to every unit in the Cron Dex, Night Fighting. I mention it here because it is a rather vitally important point to their survivability, and it's something that differentiates them from similarly designed units from other codices (CC based infiltrators/DSers)

11.) They are a solid tarpit. Now, the current close combat resolution rules are a bit problematic here (as they are for all Horde based not fearless CC unit), but they are still Ld 10, meaning you can lose the combat by 2 and still have the same odds of passing your leadership test as Grey Hunters (with no loses) or Stubborn Guardsmen. So a little perspective here.

12.) People would be surprised how much damage mass S4 attacks can do against most vehicles (Read: rear armor 10). 10 Flayed Ones striking a combat speed vehicle have the same damage out put as 15 Warriors in rapid fire range (or 30 Warriors at 12.1 to 24" range). Obviously this can very greatly with Cruising Speed or Imobilized/Standing still, but this factor is greatly dependent upon careful orchestration and is one a good general can use to their advantage.


The most common criticism I see leveled against them is they don't fair well against unit X. But this is a silly form of argument. Quite literally every unit in the game has a set of Unit Xs it doesn't fair well against. In 6 months of playing with them (in the current Dex, 10 years playing with them overall but to be honest I was not a huge fan of the 3rd edition variety), I very rarely have seen an army made up of even 50% units I wouldn't pit my Flayed Ones against. In fact, in today's MSU crazed meta, even the nastiest of CC units I have little trouble out lasting with the Flayed Ones.


I've literally never regretted taking them, as their idiosyncrasies offer strategic flexibility not properly replicated elsewhere in the Codex. Now, that being said, I certainly wouldn't recommend them for any list, however the prevailingly CC oriented lists I've been running have proven them to be quite valuable.

/equip-flame-retardent-gear Fire Away My current schedule will keep me from replying till 7pm or so CST, so my apologies ahead of time.

Like this post has made me consider buying some Flayed ones now!

Oh, I FULLY agree with this. I've always seen them in a positive light (new models not counting).

Though, I suspect this may be because I'm an Ork player first, so I know how to appreciate larger numbs with mass T4 and S4

Their 4+ save, t4, and RP means they are surprisingly hard to completely wipe out, and their mass amount of attacks will mean they will make combat failure checks a narrow loss if it comes to that.

They also have interesting synergy with other HQ choices, particularly when given Furious Charge with Zandrekh.

Nice to see you resurecting my flaye ones tactics and expanding on them tenfold! I'm way too lazy to explain to people so many details as you have. Internet trolls and uninformed people tend to kill any idea of fielding anything but mainstream necrons. Flayed ones are definitely no scarab farm but they can do so much for such an overlooked unit.

If they were sold in a plastic pack of ten i would seriously consider buying some as a surprise CC element in my shooty army.

As said, with Zandy allowing them to DS in the enemies turn and giving them couter attack/furious charge = sweet!

I think such a list can be made for almost every unit:

They are more mobile then people realize. RP adds about 3" to their mobility, giving them roughly a 15" assault range, provided they are being shot at. If they are not being shot at, well, that means your dedicated CC unit that you deployed in your opponents face is not being shot (=win).

This for example is a bit weird. Adding 3" due to Reanimation protocols is correct, but I think it is a pseudo-win-win-situation. You try to get an advantage out of the fact that you are being shot at, and you ignore the fact, that not being shot at is not necessarily good (cc unit preparing to charge, shooting at something else more important etc.)

6.) They synergise well with a Destroyer Lord packing a res orb, which needs a whole thread of its own to properly appreciate, but suffice it to say a very under utilized and versatile unit, as it can jump its res orb goodness from unit to unit as required.

Well... who does not synergise with him? Are you advocating flayed ones or the Destroyer Lord?

12.) People would be surprised how much damage mass S4 attacks can do against most vehicles (Read: rear armor 10). 10 Flayed Ones striking a combat speed vehicle have the same damage out put as 15 Warriors in rapid fire range (or 30 Warriors at 12.1 to 24" range). Obviously this can very greatly with Cruising Speed or Imobilized/Standing still, but this factor is greatly dependent upon careful orchestration and is one a good general can use to their advantage.

Yes and how high is that damage? You will get about 2 glances out of 10 flayed ones. Insufficient to kill any vehicle. If you are lucky you get one better result than stunned out of it. 15 warriors are better btw because they hit on 3+. They will score about 3 glances which is not particularly good too. Flayed ones vs faster moving vehicles... Don't mention it...

They have some problems why people dont want to play them.

1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)
2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)
3. They don't score
4. 15" or 12" action range: Infantry is slow. And you won't bring efficient masses to cope with that as orks do (you get 2 scoring ork boyz for 1 flayed one) or guard.
5. They are Ini 2. Every unit that has a decent number of attacks and some resilience will wipe them. (CSM, Grey Hunters, Bloodies, every colour of termies, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers... shall I continue? )
6. Horde-CC is not particularly effective as it has issues with tank shocks, difficult terrain and contradicts spread out deployment (either fewer guys will strike or templates will have more targets) It is also vulnerable to combat resolution, because they will lose more models normally.
7. Put a walker in them -> quiet...

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt consider them unusable, many of your points are valid. Overall they are a cheap surprising presence on the battlefield. If you get something out of that, you should take them. But most people (not including me) prefer straight forward no brainer units...

-Nazdreg- wrote:I think such a list can be made for almost every unit:

They are more mobile then people realize. RP adds about 3" to their mobility, giving them roughly a 15" assault range, provided they are being shot at. If they are not being shot at, well, that means your dedicated CC unit that you deployed in your opponents face is not being shot (=win).

This for example is a bit weird. Adding 3" due to Reanimation protocols is correct, but I think it is a pseudo-win-win-situation. You try to get an advantage out of the fact that you are being shot at, and you ignore the fact, that not being shot at is not necessarily good (cc unit preparing to charge, shooting at something else more important etc.)

6.) They synergise well with a Destroyer Lord packing a res orb, which needs a whole thread of its own to properly appreciate, but suffice it to say a very under utilized and versatile unit, as it can jump its res orb goodness from unit to unit as required.

Well... who does not synergise with him? Are you advocating flayed ones or the Destroyer Lord?

12.) People would be surprised how much damage mass S4 attacks can do against most vehicles (Read: rear armor 10). 10 Flayed Ones striking a combat speed vehicle have the same damage out put as 15 Warriors in rapid fire range (or 30 Warriors at 12.1 to 24" range). Obviously this can very greatly with Cruising Speed or Imobilized/Standing still, but this factor is greatly dependent upon careful orchestration and is one a good general can use to their advantage.

Yes and how high is that damage? You will get about 2 glances out of 10 flayed ones. Insufficient to kill any vehicle. If you are lucky you get one better result than stunned out of it. 15 warriors are better btw because they hit on 3+. They will score about 3 glances which is not particularly good too. Flayed ones vs faster moving vehicles... Don't mention it...

They have some problems why people dont want to play them.

1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)
2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)
3. They don't score
4. 15" or 12" action range: Infantry is slow. And you won't bring efficient masses to cope with that as orks do (you get 2 scoring ork boyz for 1 flayed one) or guard.
5. They are Ini 2. Every unit that has a decent number of attacks and some resilience will wipe them. (CSM, Grey Hunters, Bloodies, every colour of termies, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers... shall I continue? )
6. Horde-CC is not particularly effective as it has issues with tank shocks, difficult terrain and contradicts spread out deployment (either fewer guys will strike or templates will have more targets) It is also vulnerable to combat resolution, because they will lose more models normally.
7. Put a walker in them -> quiet...

Don't get me wrong, I wouldnt consider them unusable, many of your points are valid. Overall they are a cheap surprising presence on the battlefield. If you get something out of that, you should take them. But most people (not including me) prefer straight forward no brainer units...

Bingo. Flayed ones are ok but as a cost comparisson, for the cost of 20 flayed ones you can almost get 3 anni barges, which in most games will do more overall damage, and threaten a wide range of targets. Flayed ones are good against infantry, and necrons don't need help killing infantry with all the tesla and wraiths they have, they need to kill armor for the wraiths to get to work

There are definately units that kill infantry better. But as the OP said, a unit of 10-20 cc models appearign in your face will definately make an opponent reconsider their options.

In an apoc game where you could afford to field Imotekh and Zandy......they DS in on your opponents turn, without scatter. then when they charge in you give them FC (for free!) so they are now hitting at S5.

Blammy.

Praxiss wrote:There are definately units that kill infantry better. But as the OP said, a unit of 10-20 cc models appearign in your face will definately make an opponent reconsider their options.

In an apoc game where you could afford to field Imotekh and Zandy......they DS in on your opponents turn, without scatter. then when they charge in you give them FC (for free!) so they are now hitting at S5.

Blammy.

So you plop 20 flayed ones in range of your opponent to shoot, thus wasting nightfight because your opponent can just blow up the flayed ones so he's not wasting firepower elseware...? I could see fo's as a good diversion if you don't run pulses, or in a list centered around immo 100 percent (as they have a good chance of having a target)

-Nazdreg- wrote:
1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)
2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)

A unit of 15 will have an average of 30 hits when assaulting a vehicle that's moved at combat speed, resulting in about 5 glances. That's enough to do some damage, or at least preventing it from firing.

A group of 15 will have 60 attacks on the charge. Against ws4 and t4, that's 15 wounds. That's 12-13 dead orks, and 2-3 dead terminators as a comparison. They suffer considerably less to PF's than Wraiths (who would be ID'd) and are more able to withstand the "thousand papercuts" approach of Orks in close combat.

Two Annihilation barges are going to kill about 4 space marines, 10 orks, or two terminators, depending on what you fire at. Then again, the two aren't exactly competing for the same slot...

The same way I tend to think of gauss immortals or warriors as pseudo dire avengers, I tend to see flayed ones a little like striking scorpions. Now I like striking scorpions, or at least the thought behind them. I love rolling dice, if a units main objective can be accomplished by weight of interactions, I'm a happy boy, but that often lends itself to a lack of versatility.

I'm already forced to take a lot of solid, mid threat range units who's primary application involves being alarming and being reasonably good at killing dudes and soaking up return fire. My options to shore up other list building essentials are expensive and awkward to purchase in the necron codex, especially when trying not to rely so much on killing things in CC (transports come to mind). I just have a hard time justifying them. They seem like a really cute unit though, and you are giving me an impression that they have some hidden utility that I've been finding my necrons otherwise lacking.

I'll be the first to admit I'm not really great at this game, but I do tend to remember the things I've been taught, so I'd love to hear some more on their usage, especially with the destroyer lord. But thinking about that already makes me feel uncomfortable, I have so much less ability to deal with tanks in the movement or shooting phase when I sub out a barge for a destroyer lord. That means fewer squads on the ground in the assault phase, and less ability for my wraiths or whatnot to tie up shooting, or my destructors to eliminate it before hand.
See how conservative I am? I'm practically reaching for a glass of scotch just thinking about it.

Zid wrote:Bingo. Flayed ones are ok but as a cost comparisson, for the cost of 20 flayed ones you can almost get 3 anni barges, which in most games will do more overall damage, and threaten a wide range of targets. Flayed ones are good against infantry, and necrons don't need help killing infantry with all the tesla and wraiths they have, they need to kill armor for the wraiths to get to work

Flayed ones are OK I guess. If they could score, they would be much better.

Wraiths fill the same role, just much better. They are one of the best units in the game currently.

A unit of 15 will have an average of 30 hits when assaulting a vehicle that's moved at combat speed, resulting in about 5 glances. That's enough to do some damage, or at least preventing it from firing.

A group of 15 will have 60 attacks on the charge. Against ws4 and t4, that's 15 wounds. That's 12-13 dead orks, and 2-3 dead terminators as a comparison. They suffer considerably less to PF's than Wraiths (who would be ID'd) and are more able to withstand the "thousand papercuts" approach of Orks in close combat.

Two Annihilation barges are going to kill about 4 space marines, 10 orks, or two terminators, depending on what you fire at. Then again, the two aren't exactly competing for the same slot...

ok do you really think from 15 guys charging, all will be able to strike and do you really think that the vehicle that moved combat speed didnt kill any of them?

OK yep 15 guys charging 30 boyz (about the same points cost) will kill 12-13 boyz and 30 boyz will kill about 6-7 flayed ones losing 5 more. Yep the flayed ones will win this. Barely. When the boyz are the ones who charge, its a different thing. 30 slugga boyz will wipe out the entire squad before they even strike on average. Yes boyz are still better than flayed ones, and they score. And they are far harder to take down with shooting.

But thats another vacuum comparison that doesnt work.

Why does everyone keep wanting obvious Anti-Infantry units to take out vehicles? Taking out vehicles is not their forte
With infiltrate you can place a massive slab o' infantry directly infront of a beatstick i.e. Hammernators and force them to either engage or go around. They are elite-hunters.

labmouse42 wrote:

Zid wrote:Bingo. Flayed ones are ok but as a cost comparisson, for the cost of 20 flayed ones you can almost get 3 anni barges, which in most games will do more overall damage, and threaten a wide range of targets. Flayed ones are good against infantry, and necrons don't need help killing infantry with all the tesla and wraiths they have, they need to kill armor for the wraiths to get to work

Flayed ones are OK I guess. If they could score, they would be much better.

Wraiths fill the same role, just much better. They are one of the best units in the game currently.

Agreed, Flayed Ones should have been a troops choice.

-Nazdreg- wrote:I think such a list can be made for almost every unit:

Of course, GW employs a team of well paid, experienced, full time game designers and testers. Now they are not perfect, but I think it takes a fair amount of hubris to assume a few moments playing with plastic toy soldiers in your spair time arms you with a better perspective then someone who does this for a living (point is, my list of "non-competitve" units is substantially shorter then most, particularly out of any modern codex).

Now, I truly do appreciate Nazdreg's post as he highlights some of the common misconceptions that are out there:

This for example is a bit weird. Adding 3" due to Reanimation protocols is correct, but I think it is a pseudo-win-win-situation. You try to get an advantage out of the fact that you are being shot at, and you ignore the fact, that not being shot at is not necessarily good (cc unit preparing to charge, shooting at something else more important etc.)

If they are not being shot at (assuming because they are out of assault range) then they are compounding the problem for the next turn. It's win-win for me, I'll take the extra 3" or the extra 3 bases (or whatever the case may be).

Well... who does not synergise with him? Are you advocating flayed ones or the Destroyer Lord?

Well, the point was, by the intrinsic nature of the Res Orb, a large group of FOs is going to benefit more then pretty much anything else (besides Warriors). Also, Flayed Ones are one of the only units that have RP and can't bring their own Res Orb.

Yes and how high is that damage? You will get about 2 glances out of 10 flayed ones. Insufficient to kill any vehicle. If you are lucky you get one better result than stunned out of it. 15 warriors are better btw because they hit on 3+. They will score about 3 glances which is not particularly good too. Flayed ones vs faster moving vehicles... Don't mention it...

False. FOs get 4 attacks on the charge, so 40(1/2)=20 just as 30(2/3)=20. 3 glances is enough to stun a tank and likely do a bit of damage, more importantly if properly situated surround the tank so the squishy bits cannot disembark, and you get auto hits on it the next turn (surely you see where this is going yes?)

1. They suck against vehicles. S4 is only S4. (this could be changed with Zahndrekh, but then you need him too and Warriors also suck against vehicles...)

/shrug I would say 1 glance/5 bases is decent enough. A 5 man squad with a melta doesn't average a glance a turn (granted, the upper end of their damage is obviously higher). Anyway, in a focused CC Necron Army with Wraiths, Scarabs, VB/PC Triarch Praetorians, Destroyer Lords...why would the FOs need to kill tanks?

2. The morale problem you already mentioned (combat resolution)

Granted, but this isn't nearly as big of an issue as people make it. Keep in mind they have Ld 10, so they have to be losing combat by a good margin to make this die roll unfavorable.

3. They don't score

Ummmmm.....and? This is the most overly used line of rhetoric against any unit people percieve as 'bad." I have two secrets for you, a.) neither does anything else in the game not in the troop FOS and b.) contesting an objective, for all intensive canned porpoises, is good enough, barring you have the right amount of scoring potential anyway.

4. 15" or 12" action range: Infantry is slow. And you won't bring efficient masses to cope with that as orks do (you get 2 scoring ork boyz for 1 flayed one) or guard.

They have the same net assault range (roughly with the RP shenanigans) of any rhino based CC unit, and they have the capability of being placed virtually anywhere on the battlefield. With competent placement and a keen eye, their speed isn't a very big issue.

5. They are Ini 2. Every unit that has a decent number of attacks and some resilience will wipe them. (CSM, Grey Hunters, Bloodies, every colour of termies, TWC, Khorne Berzerkers... shall I continue? )

This statement varies from completely false (I assure you they will beat TH/SS termies, the percieved "kings" of CC, 75 to 85% of the time depending on who gets the charge), to mostly false. People act like they are guard. They have the same net resilience in CC as a Space Marine against normal attacks and better agains power weapons. Now, granted, you've got to get through CC to get the RP roll, but with their weight of attacks this shouldn't be an issue agaisnt most units.

An illustration if you will:

Take a group of 15 FOs getting charged. It takes 40 S4 WS4 non PW attacks (on average) just to kill 5, RP not withstanding. The FOs will strike back with 30(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=2.5 (assuming MEQ target). So they lose combat by 2 or 3, take a leadership test on a 7 or and 8 (favorable die roll), get 1 to 2 back because of RP, and now they are fighting a weakened opponent who no longer will get the benefit of the charge. The thing is, this is incredibly unlikely. In the MSU world you rarely come accross a unit with 40 S4 WS 4 attacks, and thats granting them the charge.

6. Horde-CC is not particularly effective as it has issues with tank shocks, difficult terrain and contradicts spread out deployment (either fewer guys will strike or templates will have more targets) It is also vulnerable to combat resolution, because they will lose more models normally.

Theres some validity to this statment, but its a rather minor issues. Just like any unit, once you've used it enough you will find ways to overcome minor shortfalls.

7. Put a walker in them -> quiet...

CC walker, sure. Rifleman/Psyfleman/basically any "Shooty" walker? I'll take that fight any day of the week and twice on Sundays (to win the tournement ). Math hammer it out, the Flayed Ones might not be able to damage the walker but at the same time the walker aint doing jack to them either, if they can keep him tied up long enough for a DLord or Wraith to come punch him in the taint=win.

-Nazdreg- wrote:ok do you really think from 15 guys charging, all will be able to strike and do you really think that the vehicle that moved combat speed didnt kill any of them?

OK yep 15 guys charging 30 boyz (about the same points cost) will kill 12-13 boyz and 30 boyz will kill about 6-7 flayed ones losing 5 more. Yep the flayed ones will win this. Barely. When the boyz are the ones who charge, its a different thing. 30 slugga boyz will wipe out the entire squad before they even strike on average. Yes boyz are still better than flayed ones, and they score. And they are far harder to take down with shooting.

But thats another vacuum comparison that doesnt work.

My primary race is orks. I KNOW that, with charging vehicles, it's not hard at all to get 15 models into combat.

30 Ork slugga boyz (without a nob... though I don't know why one would not include one) will wipe out the flayed ones - but only assuming every single one is in combat. When one takes that into consideration, only just over half the Flayed ones are wiped away. But this is an awkward environment for comparison, since even Orks fall over when assaulted - being assaulted is baaaad.

Regardless, if 15 Flayed Ones assaulted 30 orks, they would (mathhammer wise) win combat by the the end of the second assault phase, with half of their unit remaining. One must remember the Fearless wounds Orks would suffer, as well as the reanimation protocols bringing flayed ones back. The Orks have lost 180pts, the necron player has lost 90pts.

With Wraiths on the other hand would perform better if there was no Nob with a Powerklaw. Which is unheard of!

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

-Nazdreg- wrote:

OK yep 15 guys charging 30 boyz (about the same points cost) will kill 12-13 boyz and 30 boyz will kill about 6-7 flayed ones losing 5 more. Yep the flayed ones will win this. Barely. When the boyz are the ones who charge, its a different thing. 30 slugga boyz will wipe out the entire squad before they even strike on average. Yes boyz are still better than flayed ones, and they score. And they are far harder to take down with shooting.

But thats another vacuum comparison that doesnt work.

Wait...Flayed Ones with the charge should come out with 7 or 8 bases left (you seem to have left out RP), not sure I would call that barely. Now the orks will certainly win if they get the charge as well, and quite demonstrably. Against shooting, it's largly dependent on having cover, which you pointed out yourself isn't easy for 30 boys to pull off. Also, boys can't infiltratte or deep strike, and don't have access to multiple turns of night fighting. (as you said...vacuum).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kharrak wrote:

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

^^^ A thousand times this. Wraiths are great, but there is only 3 FA slots, and I'm particularly fond of just about everything you can get out of it.

More valid comparisons would be the other Elite slot choices, none of which completely trump Flayed Ones IMHO.

Do I worry about flayed ones? No.

Can't say the same about wraiths.

imweasel wrote:Do I worry about flayed ones? No.

Can't say the same about wraiths.

Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

imweasel wrote:Do I worry about flayed ones? No.

Can't say the same about wraiths.

Honestly though, how often have you actually faced 15 to 20 Flayed Ones?

I mean, I don't stay up at nights worrying about Chuck Norris smashing my skull in either...I'm sure that perception would change after one round house kick to the face.

Deep striking on your opponents turn after they move from reserve can be quite good. It will allow you to deploy the flayed ones on a weak flank where they can be expected to be the strongest thing on that side. How do you do that? A refused flank deployment by the Necrons can be countered by deploying, from reserve, on thier side of the board. This opens up the opposite side as a potential target for the flayed ones.

I also like the infiltrating aspect. It can keep scouting Vendettas away from your lines before turn 1 and scouting Baal's. I'm not saying flayed ones are the cats meow, but time and time again good generals find ways to win with units most other people think are no good. Keep an open mind.

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

Okay, do I WORRY bout them? Nah, they can't assault now, they're not an immediate threat. But they do make me think. I can either spend fire on them, that I'd normally be allocating to other stuff, and leave his main force that much stronger, or I can skimp on targeting the FOs, and risk getting sliced up when they charge. Not always an easy choice.

TermiesInARaider wrote:

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

Okay, do I WORRY bout them? Nah, they can't assault now, they're not an immediate threat. But they do make me think. I can either spend fire on them, that I'd normally be allocating to other stuff, and leave his main force that much stronger, or I can skimp on targeting the FOs, and risk getting sliced up when they charge. Not always an easy choice.

Of course. But at least you can do something before the hammer falls. There is a huge difference. I have to pro-actively stop deep strikers or change my deployment RADICALLY based on a shooting deep strike unit.

I may have to react to a melee deep strike unit, but at least I get that opportunity.

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:

imweasel wrote:

TermiesInARaider wrote:Sorry, but I worry about 15-20 ANYTHING DSing up into my face. Even if they might not win their points back, if they're drawing fire, they're doing their job. And the less fire they draw, the more face they can wreck.

I worry about 15ish models ds'ing in my face if they can shoot. Something that just sits there after ds'ing? Not so much...

Okay, do I WORRY bout them? Nah, they can't assault now, they're not an immediate threat. But they do make me think. I can either spend fire on them, that I'd normally be allocating to other stuff, and leave his main force that much stronger, or I can skimp on targeting the FOs, and risk getting sliced up when they charge. Not always an easy choice.

Of course. But at least you can do something before the hammer falls. There is a huge difference. I have to pro-actively stop deep strikers or change my deployment RADICALLY based on a shooting deep strike unit.

I may have to react to a melee deep strike unit, but at least I get that opportunity.

Yes, that is truth.

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

I support this also actually.

They are definitely not useless. imho the new Necron codex has close to 0 useless units. Maybe the doomsday ark. I am also not a big fan of the ghost ark. But you can always do something with a unit that is decent in assault coming over a flank.

A squad of boyz that can infiltrate cost a whopping 10 points per model.

TedNugent wrote:A squad of boyz that can infiltrate cost a whopping 10 points per model.

That's pretty expensive considering it makes them almost twice as expensive, and for 3 points more you get +1S, a 4+ save, RP, access to Night Fighting...or was that your point? Sorry if it isn't clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

-Nazdreg- wrote:

I don't think Flayed Ones are amazing, but I certainly don't think they are useless in any way.

I support this also actually.

They are definitely not useless. imho the new Necron codex has close to 0 useless units. Maybe the doomsday ark. I am also not a big fan of the ghost ark. But you can always do something with a unit that is decent in assault coming over a flank.

Word.

I have a feeling Doomsday Arks would do well in a Maximum Range, two turns of Solar Pulses, list focusing on everything with 36"+ weapons (Harps, TArrows, HDs, Heavy Gauss touting Stalkers, etc). I've written the list up on paper but for financial reasons haven't delved into it yet.

ShadarLogoth - Great topic for a post, points well made.

I'm now going back to look at Flayed Ones and their capabilities cos of this. Infiltrating is a PIA to deal with imho, so that raises the fun factor!

A lot of my lists focus on surprising the opponent with something out of the ordinary, as I find that a lot of opponents can't cope with their plan being disrupted. Sounds like I've overlooked a key unit.

I'll second the points already made about not assessing units in a vacuum (particularly if you've never played with them).

I'd add that any unit needs to have its purpose in the strategy of the list (and the tactics of how you are going to play it) clearly determined. I don't believe whacking points efficient units like wraiths, CCB or anni barges into a list, without clearly making sure they have synergy and a role, is going to work as well as flayed ones in a list where their role is defined and played to. But that's a question of generalship isn't it?