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DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

If I may critique you on your style of debate, you do come across as offensive. Referring to non-first founding chapters as 45451281 founding or xxx founding chapters, and calling IA books "magazines" is pretty dismissive. Also, having more fluff doesn't mean that the Space Wolves are better, it simply means that there is more information with which to back an argument, even then, a lot of the fluff (as is common with GW) contradicts itself.

Buttons wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

If I may critique you on your style of debate, you do come across as offensive. Referring to non-first founding chapters as 45451281 founding or xxx founding chapters, and calling IA books "magazines" is pretty dismissive. Also, having more fluff doesn't mean that the Space Wolves are better, it simply means that there is more information with which to back an argument, even then, a lot of the fluff (as is common with GW) contradicts itself.

And that's my point,do you see why people are discussing BA and SW and totaly forgeting Min and C(Mcninja reference post)??? Because there is much more to discuss,IMHO...Well I'm a toooo much Heresy fan I' guess...I do apologize for my rash temper(that why I like SW) ....But let be logic ofc...

DatrhMarko wrote:

Buttons wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

If I may critique you on your style of debate, you do come across as offensive. Referring to non-first founding chapters as 45451281 founding or xxx founding chapters, and calling IA books "magazines" is pretty dismissive. Also, having more fluff doesn't mean that the Space Wolves are better, it simply means that there is more information with which to back an argument, even then, a lot of the fluff (as is common with GW) contradicts itself.

And that's my point,do you see why people are discussing BA and SW and totaly forgeting Min and C(Mcninja reference post)??? Because there is much more to discuss,IMHO...Well I'm a toooo much Heresy fan I' guess...I do apologize for my rash temper(that why I like SW) ....But let be logic ofc...

My point is that just because there is more fluff doesn't mean that the space wolves are better. In their short history the Minotaurs practically wiped out two chapters and drove a third off from a quarrel simply due to fear (smashed the Lamenters and Inceptors even worse than that (they are actually banned from Ultramar for the latter as hilarious as that sounds), and drove off the Doom Warriors who were fighting with the Inceptors). In addition to that their early history shows a very blunt yet effective style of aggressive hand to hand centered warfare (almost like the World Eaters, they jump in with little regard for planning alongside allies, smash the enemy and leave, frequently with heavy losses), while their more recent history (after they returned from being missing for like 2K years) shows a more refined and effective form of assault.

While one shouldn't discredit the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or Black Templars, it is undeniable that the Minotaurs are a terrifying chapter for such a young chapter. Their generally superior equipment only pushes the proverbial scale further in their favour, because even if a Minotaur only beats a space wolf because he has Mk VIII armour instead of Mk VII armour he still wins, and that is what matters in the end.

But yeah, there is no way to definitively say who is the absolute best, we can certainly state that among the chapters with any real fluff (as in more than just a name being mentioned) there are six contenders who have been mentioned in this thread several times and would probably be placed towards the top of any potential list, the Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Space Wolves for the older chapters, and the Minotaurs, Flesh Tearers, and Space Sharks (can't spell their fancy name) as far as new chapters go.

For the new chapters I will quickly list some reasons.
Minotaurs: Already talked a lot about them, but to reiterate, they kill a lot of marines, prefer close combat, and are like loyalist World Eaters that have calmed down since. Seriously, read IA 10, the Mintaurs' early history makes them sound disturbingly like World Eaters.
Flesh Tearers: A Blood Angels' successor chapter that suffers from the Black Rage so frequently that it is likely going to die out due to it. So even if they lack the subtleties of other chapters, they more than make up for it with sheer brute strength provided by their Death Company.
Space Sharks: In addition to their demeanor, they focus on close combat enough that everyone has a specialized close combat weapon of some kind even if it is just a bayonet, and are overall a fairly aggressive chapter pretty much hitting the enemy in one area, hacking them down and moving right on to the next target. Like a more organized and tame version of the early Minotaurs.

Space Sharks: I'm not so sure about "tame." They killed the majority of a friendly chapter to take out an enemy shield, and didn't give one single damn. Their technique more like the Minotaurs, but instead of sticking around, they smack people down as accurately as possible then GTFO, then come back and do it again, taking as few casualties as possible.

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

Second founding. People always ignore that all the Chapters are Second Founding or later; there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter. It makes a difference because every Chapter created during the Second Founding has claim to it's share of the glories of the Heresy. For example, the Imperial Fists (Legion) is not the same entity as the Imperial Fists (Chapter). The exploits and heroics of the Imperial Fists (Legion) belongs to the Imperial Fists (Chapter), Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers and any other Second Founding Chapter of Imperial Fists geneseed.

Again, Knights of Blood win.
Flesh Tearers but then 10 times worse.
Ahum, mantlegen.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

Second founding. People always ignore that all the Chapters are Second Founding or later; there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter. It makes a difference because every Chapter created during the Second Founding has claim to it's share of the glories of the Heresy. For example, the Imperial Fists (Legion) is not the same entity as the Imperial Fists (Chapter). The exploits and heroics of the Imperial Fists (Legion) belongs to the Imperial Fists (Chapter), Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers and any other Second Founding Chapter of Imperial Fists geneseed.

Ooooo please STOP ....for CHRIS sake- just STOP

DarthMarko wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive

Second founding. People always ignore that all the Chapters are Second Founding or later; there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter. It makes a difference because every Chapter created during the Second Founding has claim to it's share of the glories of the Heresy. For example, the Imperial Fists (Legion) is not the same entity as the Imperial Fists (Chapter). The exploits and heroics of the Imperial Fists (Legion) belongs to the Imperial Fists (Chapter), Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Soul Drinkers and any other Second Founding Chapter of Imperial Fists geneseed.

Ooooo please STOP ....for CHRIS sake- just STOP

Spoiler:

The twenty Space Marine Legions, also known as the Legiones Astartes, were created by the Emperor to take part in the Great Crusade in what was later known as the First Founding. All the Space Marines of a Legion ("battle-brothers" amongst themselves) were modified with help of the DNA samples of a single Primarch. As a Primarch was found, he would receive the command of his respective Legion. His homeworld would also become the new homeworld of the Legion itself.

Yes, they were Legions, not Chapters. Good job. Did you actually read my post?

So BT are 2nd generation IF legion -> IFchapter(second) -> BT(second) -Like 2nd generation

But you got a point,I ll give you that - so we can only say first founding LEGION?

So the space Wolves,Ultramarines,BloodAngels are all second founding because they are chapter now?

DarthMarko wrote:So BT are 2nd generation IF legion -> IFchapter(second) -> BT(second) -Like 2nd generation

But you got a point,I ll give you that - so we can only say first founding LEGION?

No, you can say what you want, but I'll be there nagging you about it all the way.

DarthMarko wrote:So BT are 2nd generation IF legion -> IFchapter(second) -> BT(second) -Like 2nd generation

But you got a point,I ll give you that - so we can only say first founding LEGION?

So the space Wolves,Ultramarines,BloodAngels are all second founding because they are chapter now?

Nope.
They are first founding chapters.

When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Theyre not exactly codex, and more individual organisation.

The Space Wolves. They did manage to put a whoopin' on the Thousand Sons LEGION after all.

Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Just Dave wrote:
But ultimately, really it's all irrelevant. It's too broad a subject and subjective for any one Chapter to be better; they all have strengths and weaknesses.
That said...

... I would hand it to the Grey Knights. They are technically a Chapter and through psychic powers alone, they should easily be the best close combatants. Add to that their experience fighting Daemons (amongst the greatest close combatants in the galaxy in all likelihood), wargear and training and I can't see how any other Chapter could be superior to them, in a vacuum (i.e. this thread), in hand-to-hand. Even unarmed or with pokey sticks; psychic powers really should be that influential, although not necessarily close combat by the nature of some.

Shas'o_Longshot wrote:I suppose Grey Knights don't count?

TechMarine1 wrote:The Space Wolves. They did manage to put a whoopin' on the Thousand Sons LEGION after all.

We talking about the Prospero battles? Because the Space Wolves were a Legion too back then.

TechMarine1 wrote:The Space Wolves. They did manage to put a whoopin' on the Thousand Sons LEGION after all.

Yea, they were a legion then.

Elector wrote:When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

Source? It's copied word-for-word from Lexicanum, which lists C:BT page 20 as the source, but pg 20 doesn't actually say anything about that.

Wolves or angels depends on the combatant.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Elector wrote:When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

Source? It's copied word-for-word from Lexicanum, which lists C:BT page 20 as the source, but pg 20 doesn't actually say anything about that.

Off the top of my head? The Blood Angels novel Red Thirst. The Flesh Tearers resent the Blood Angels for their "First Founding status" that grants them honors like being able to live on Baal. I'll get a more concrete source when I'm not at work.

Elector wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Elector wrote:When the Legions were split into Chapters, one Chapter would keep the original heraldry and names. The remainders got new sigils and names. Those remainders are the "Successor Chapters" and were Second Founding (referring only to the Chapters formed during that time)

Any Chapter that bears the same heraldry and name as the legion they originated from referred to as 'First Founding'. Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, they are all First Founding. FleshTearers, Marauders, Black Templars, Crimson Fists, Angels of Vengeance, they are all Second Founding.

Source? It's copied word-for-word from Lexicanum, which lists C:BT page 20 as the source, but pg 20 doesn't actually say anything about that.

Off the top of my head? The Blood Angels novel Red Thirst. The Flesh Tearers resent the Blood Angels for their "First Founding status" that grants them honors like being able to live on Baal. I'll get a more concrete source when I'm not at work.

I can see Lynata logic,but I don't see evidence - like you said Legion= (chapter) same name = first founding -
I'dont know why is that, probably because of the famous Name vanity

While the Minotaurs and Space Sharks get credit for beating up on loyal marine chapters, they also had the advantage in the Badab war of not splitting loyalties.

Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

Buttons wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

1. BA come from Pure Blooded Humans, not mutants, in fact the humans on Baal frequently fought with the numerous mutants when Sanguinius arrived, which is ironic because Sanguinius is technically a mutant.
2. Don't see how that makes them better in hand to hand, if anything it would just stunt their growth and cause health issues later in life.
4. Blood Angels aspire to be assault marines, which have jump packs to offer an even greater degree of mobility and to allow them to come to grips with the enemy faster.
5. Blood Angels suffer from the Black Rage and Red Thirst, causing them to charge the nearest enemy and giving them even greater strength.

I am not sure if you are a troll or a no clue fluff nub.

1. Codex BA, page 11

It has to be said that the recruits are far from handsome. Most of the Aspirants bear marks of their hard lives, for it is all but impossible for an ordinary man to dwell on those barren moons and not feel the terrible kiss of radiation. Many are marked by stigmata, most are short and stunted, their growth stifled by malnutrition and constant hunger. Many more will be marked by lesions and carcinoma.

So as I said, the best of the best, least mutated mutants, make up the recruiting pool of the BA.

2. You really are not a SW player as you claim because every single SW player I know, knows about the child-gift. Codex SW, page 7

To survive in such a land the Fenrisians must be warriors from the cradle to the grave. This is why the child-gift is always the axe, and why those that will not grasp it are cast outside to die quickly in the freezing seas. Their survival depends upon their wits and determination as much as their skill with sword and spear.

A Fenrisian child that won't grasp the close combat weapon that pretty much defines not only Fenrisians but the Space Wolves is considered useless, discarded, and left to die. As previously quoted, the only one to have stunted growth and health issues are BA.

3. Again, BA recruits start out as scouts. Once they have proved themselves worthy in both Assault and Devastator squads are they able to join a Tactical squad. Some will stay in Assault squads, but only the best will become Tactical marines, thus forsaking their close combat weaponry in lieu of astandard ranged loadout. This is straight from the codex so you might want to give it a read.

And being highly mobile does not constitute combat prowess otherwise Ork Speed Freaks would be the king of close combat, which we know isn't true.

4. You push their special rules as if that displays combat prowess. That might promote lethality, but not prowess. Something you obviously cannot tell the difference. BA are no different then a person on PCP, stronger, no sense mortality, and appear impervious to pain. However after the fight, like a person on PCP, they die due to the injuries sustained. That isn't being skilled in close combat.

Read a codex instead of just running off about IA and Lexicanum.

Durandal wrote:
Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

Minotaurs did give quarters, if they didn't than the Lamenters would have been completely wiped out.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

No duh, the first founding chapters have been around twice as long and frequently people include exploits from when they were full fledged legions.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

Uh no, even if they aren't as skilled, a Blood Angel suffering from the black rage will rip a space wolf in half if only because of their far superior strength. Also, bersekers have the advantage of being unpredictable.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Neither of the chapters are outright berserkers (currently at least), they are aggressive and ruthless, but the Minotaurs have long since tamed their aggression and managed to crush even a Blood Angels' successor chapter in close combat. The Space Wolves haven't had any victories against Astartes since the battle of the Fang to my knowledge, while the Minotaurs have nearly wiped out at least 2 chapters since the Macharian Heresy.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

Which is a massive advantage. So you managed to land a blow on the Blood Angel, he will shrug it off and tear your head off using his superior strength.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

lolno. The whole spiel about the Black Templars is that they disregard the Codex Astartes completely, in literally every way, from squad organization, to size, to company level organization.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

What monster would that be? Besides several IG regiments are known for killing big animals, killing something big isn't that amazing for astartes.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

So as I said, the best of the best, least mutated mutants, make up the recruiting pool of the BA.

Okay, none of those are really mutations, just signs of a hard life, you do not get lesions or get hungry, or stigmata from radiation or direct mutation. They are far from pretty, yes, but being ugly isn't a mutation.

A Fenrisian child that won't grasp the close combat weapon that pretty much defines not only Fenrisians but the Space Wolves is considered useless, discarded, and left to die. As previously quoted, the only one to have stunted growth and health issues are BA.

So grabbing an axe as a child makes on a great warrior? A random cultural tradition like that doesn't make one a good warrior. Also, of course I am not a Space Wolf player, it is an annoying army. Vampires in space, I can take, Mongols in space, fine, vikings in space, fine, wolf people in space who use the word wolf, fang, claw, or something else relating to wolf in every other word is just annoying. At least the Blood Angels are a bit more creative using the word sanguinary instead of blood.

And being highly mobile does not constitute combat prowess otherwise Ork Speed Freaks would be the king of close combat, which we know isn't true.

Except the best marines don't become tactical marines, they become assault marines, and hopefully move on all the way to Sanguinary Guard. Also, speed and mobility offers versatility, and for a dedicated close combat unit, the ability to come to grips with the enemy faster, which is invaluable. While the wolves are slowly trudging towards the enemy, the Blood Angels can descend on jump packs.

4. You push their special rules as if that displays combat prowess. That might promote lethality, but not prowess. Something you obviously cannot tell the difference. BA are no different then a person on PCP, stronger, no sense mortality, and appear impervious to pain. However after the fight, like a person on PCP, they die due to the injuries sustained. That isn't being skilled in close combat.

Read a codex instead of just running off about IA and Lexicanum.

Lethality>Prowess, woohoo you can spin a sword around, that matters little when you are dead. Also, individuals suffering from the Black Rage are frequently put down after a battle anyway, so whether they live or die from their wounds matters little.

Carcharodons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Blood Angels are angry/crazy and the Grey Knights are the super bestest. And the Ultramarines are the super bestest. Don't forget about the crazy ass zealots of the Dark Templars. But you can't count out the Space Wolves with their enhanced senses and wolfyness. Perhaps the Minotaurs are the most brutal of all, rumored to be created from World Eaters geneseed and renowned for their brutality.

See, but the thing none of you get, is that the Carcharodons are... Space Sharks. A motherfething shark... ....in space. Get that through your skull. Space Sharks, melon-fether.

That is why the Carcharodons are the best.

Space Sharks.

LoneLictor wrote:Carcharodons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Blood Angels are angry/crazy and the Grey Knights are the super bestest. And the Ultramarines are the super bestest. Don't forget about the crazy ass zealots of the Dark Templars. But you can't count out the Space Wolves with their enhanced senses and wolfyness. Perhaps the Minotaurs are the most brutal of all, rumored to be created from World Eaters geneseed and renowned for their brutality.

See, but the thing none of you get, is that the Carcharodons are... Space Sharks. A motherfething shark... ....in space. Get that through your skull. Space Sharks, melon-fether.

That is why the Carcharodons are the best.

Space Sharks.

Space Shaaaaaaaaaarks.

Way better name than Carcharodons Astra
Though I like the idea that they are known by different names in different parts of the galaxy, I love how they take on the persona of the beast they're named after, and fly the dark voids of the galaxy in search of prey.
Definitely my favourite chapter within the Badab War, and are absolutely HtH beasts to boot.

Still casting my vote with Black Templars however.

And Storm Wardens, just cause.

Durandal wrote:While the Minotaurs and Space Sharks get credit for beating up on loyal marine chapters, they also had the advantage in the Badab war of not splitting loyalties.

Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

While the Minotaurs USED to be straight up berzerkers, during the Badab war they were far more organized and cohesive than before.

The Space Sharks/Carcharodons are not berzerkers. They do not suffer from any sort of Black Rage/Red Thirst. They have, to put it simply, perfected the art of shock assaults. The single best chapter at CQC? No, there are a dozen chapters who specialize in CQC, but the Carcharodons are the single best chapter at "SURPRISE!" *punch* "Fall Back! Let's do it again!" than any other chapter. That's how they've operated for who knows how long, and in fact that's how they've been forced to operate. They don't rely on anything other than themselves when they are out on their crusade. No Imperial Navy, no guardsman, no Grey Knights, no other Space Marines. Just the Carcharodons. When you have no one else to rely on, you get really good at keeping yourself alive.

In one on one cc ba or succesor would still win

Here I go again about first founding legion/chapters...Nobody said "Raven Guard" -they were like guerila shock assault troops with jetpacks and lclaws 7000 years before Carcharodons...btw preheresy EC are worth mentioning

and like tyr said wolves(fckn feral-cunning vikings with giant axes,hammers,chainaxes,swords) would rip them apart( all of them together ).....