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I'd imagine that the flesh tearers death company would be a pretty angry bunch of chaps. The clue is in the name here I feel.

We all know it's the Ultramarines.

BlaxicanX wrote:We all know it's the Ultramarines.

No, cause it isnt the most important thing, states the Codex Astartes

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter.

While the BA are a Codex Chapter when it comes to organisation they are known for keeping the Assault squads at full strength during campaigns. Everyone knows how to use a Jump Pack (a matter of honor, natural ability and tradition) and will happily move from his squad to fill an empty spot in an Assault squad.

Spetulhu wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter.

While the BA are a Codex Chapter when it comes to organisation they are known for keeping the Assault squads at full strength during campaigns. Everyone knows how to use a Jump Pack (a matter of honor, natural ability and tradition) and will happily move from his squad to fill an empty spot in an Assault squad.

Thats how they work yeah/

Spetulhu wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter.

While the BA are a Codex Chapter when it comes to organisation they are known for keeping the Assault squads at full strength during campaigns. Everyone knows how to use a Jump Pack (a matter of honor, natural ability and tradition) and will happily move from his squad to fill an empty spot in an Assault squad.

Context is everything. The modus operandi of the Blood Angels isn't to have their tactical squads rush into close combat. Black Templars do. In the end, the Blood Angels follow the Codex Astartes, which emphasises flexibility. Black Templars don't and eschew some of the Astartes ranged prowess in Devastators because they don't fit into the melee-centric Black Templar tactics.

iGuy91 wrote:I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!

Carcharodons, mainly because they have been forced to self-sustain for the last several centuries without any aid whatsoever. Minotaurs are pretty boss as well, though I know less about them.

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

And yet a Space Wolves champion would still find a challenge amongst a measly Dark Angel when it comes to a contest of skill of arms.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

1. BA come from Pure Blooded Humans, not mutants, in fact the humans on Baal frequently fought with the numerous mutants when Sanguinius arrived, which is ironic because Sanguinius is technically a mutant.
2. Don't see how that makes them better in hand to hand, if anything it would just stunt their growth and cause health issues later in life.
4. Blood Angels aspire to be assault marines, which have jump packs to offer an even greater degree of mobility and to allow them to come to grips with the enemy faster.
5. Blood Angels suffer from the Black Rage and Red Thirst, causing them to charge the nearest enemy and giving them even greater strength.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LumenPraebeo wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

And yet a Space Wolves champion would still find a challenge amongst a measly Dark Angel when it comes to a contest of skill of arms.

I wouldn't call a Dark Angels champion measly in close combat by a long shot.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Space Wolves put their best troops in the back of the line to fire heavy weapons, Black Templars give them bigger sticks.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Space Wolves put their best troops in the back of the line to fire heavy weapons, Black Templars give them bigger sticks.

SW put their oldest in the back to fire heavy weapons and yet they have already spent their time as Blood Claws/Swift Claws/Sky Claws, then Grey Hunter, and then Wolf Guard.

BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then you are not a very knowledgeable SW player. Let's look at the facts,

1. BA aspirants are basically the best of the very best MUTANTS to survive radiation and thus be transformed into BA. SW aspirants are basically the best of the best surviving warriors plucked from battlefields by wolf priests.

2. Baal children are lucky to not be killed at birth due to overt signs of mutation. Fenrisian children are cast out into the freezing seas if they do not grasp the "child-gift", always an axe.

3. BA recruits began their service as a scout. SW recruits begin their service in a pure assault unit, Blood Claws. Who then move on to pure assault units such as Sky Claws or Swift Claws.

4. BA aspire to be a tactical marine, thus armed with a bolter. SW aspire to be a Grey Hunter, thus armed with a bolt pistol, a ccw, and a bolter.

Need I go on?

Space Wolves all the way!

Space Wolves put their best troops in the back of the line to fire heavy weapons, Black Templars give them bigger sticks.

SW put their oldest in the back to fire heavy weapons and yet they have already spent their time as Blood Claws/Swift Claws/Sky Claws, then Grey Hunter, and then Wolf Guard.

BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

Their oldest are their best, it is like that in pretty much every chapter because space marines don't age like normal humans.

And Space Wolves are too busy pretending to be Wolves and harrassing human women to focus on close combat.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

The Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor, a long-range powerhouse. The Black Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader, a way to get more people into close combat faster. I'll also point out that the Emperor elects a Black Templar to be His Champion, not a Space Wolf.

Yea, the fleshterrors have one baal predator, and a load of assault squads! Don't they have some sort of problem with their geneseed where they are under the effects of black rage constantly? Plus, their chapter master has an 8 foot tall chainsword.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

The Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor, a long-range powerhouse. The Black Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader, a way to get more people into close combat faster. I'll also point out that the Emperor elects a Black Templar to be His Champion, not a Space Wolf.

Ahum. The Emperors Chosen gets chosen by the Black Templar's themselves, they don't go to Terra, chat a bit with the Custodes, move to the Big E's body and say 'Allrighty then, that onbe is chosen by him'.

Its Knights of Blood all the way

thenoobbomb wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:BT are too busy praying, vowing, and having Salem witch trial cosplay reenactments to focus on close combat.

The Space Wolves invented the Predator Destructor, a long-range powerhouse. The Black Templars invented the Land Raider Crusader, a way to get more people into close combat faster. I'll also point out that the Emperor elects a Black Templar to be His Champion, not a Space Wolf.

Ahum. The Emperors Chosen gets chosen by the Black Templar's themselves, they don't go to Terra, chat a bit with the Custodes, move to the Big E's body and say 'Allrighty then, that onbe is chosen by him'.

Its Knights of Blood all the way

No, he doesn't get chosen by the Templars. He recieves visions of the Emperor and is then guided in close combat by the Emperor. Says so right in the Codex.

still if the champin looses his 2 arms we cant move on
death company can

Pada wrote:still if the champin looses his 2 arms we cant move on
death company can

The Emperor's Champion lost both his arms in Helsreach and kept on fighting.

I have to go with SW over BA or others. Most other chapters stop sorting out troops once they are recruited. SWs are always sifting to the top.

You start out as a kid who fights, and only the most valiant and brave are chosen, especially if they die in combat.

Then you are blood claw, which rush to get headlong into melee.

Those that survive become grey hunters, who are always ready to get close and not afraid to get stuck in.

Then those who live long enough become Wolf Guard.

At every stage the marines are whittled down until only the most skilled remain. But at every stage they fight, and not just as bezerkers.

As the HH books made clear, the SW aren't just stupid bezerkers like the World Eaters or Death Company. In fact they keep that intelligent predatory edge that elevates them above fighters driven by fury alone.

So this would make them better then BA and others who rely just on fury.

You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

So because there is less fluff on them they are automatically inferior to the space wolves. Great logic there champ. How about you consider the fluff that exists on the Minotaurs, they have been used in the past to battle renegade space marine chapters (this is reflected in their rules by their chapter master giving preferred enemy against all marines except chaos marines), and they managed to completely cripple the Lamenters in a close quarters fleet action, while in the CSM codex there was a story of a SW ship that fell to the Red Corsairs, who lost to the Minotaurs and co. Same thing with the Carcharadons, their rules and fluff reflects the fact that they are extremely skilled at hand to hand combat.

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

Mary Sues? Really?

Just because they have less experience as a Chapter doesn't make the Carcharadons or Minotaurs any worse. It's like quality vs. quantity. There's more evidence/suggestion for the Wolves through more conflicts, but their own history isn't really relevant to a straight-out fight between to the two.


But ultimately, really it's all irrelevant. It's too broad a subject and subjective for any one Chapter to be better; they all have strengths and weaknesses.
That said...

... I would hand it to the Grey Knights. They are technically a Chapter and through psychic powers alone, they should easily be the best close combatants. Add to that their experience fighting Daemons (amongst the greatest close combatants in the galaxy in all likelihood), wargear and training and I can't see how any other Chapter could be superior to them, in a vacuum (i.e. this thread), in hand-to-hand. Even unarmed or with pokey sticks; psychic powers really should be that influential, although not necessarily close combat by the nature of some.

Buttons wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

So because there is less fluff on them they are automatically inferior to the space wolves. Great logic there champ. How about you consider the fluff that exists on the Minotaurs, they have been used in the past to battle renegade space marine chapters (this is reflected in their rules by their chapter master giving preferred enemy against all marines except chaos marines), and they managed to completely cripple the Lamenters in a close quarters fleet action, while in the CSM codex there was a story of a SW ship that fell to the Red Corsairs, who lost to the Minotaurs and co. Same thing with the Carcharadons, their rules and fluff reflects the fact that they are extremely skilled at hand to hand combat.

Less Fluff = more of empty talk....
Like that guy Tyr said, there's a lot of false information coming from you,so please let's talk about Minotaurs -tell me where can I read about them,which book,novela?I ll read it ,swear...

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that all of the Space Wolves were immortal and the exact same ones from the HH. Silly me, assuming that poeple die and soldiers get replaced.

Your scoring system is terrible and I have no idea what it means.

And what books? The Space Wolves books? The Blood Angels books? I'm sorry, did IA 9 and 10 get lost somewhere? I don't give a damn is the Space Wolves fought the whole damn galaxy by themselves, the question was which chapters are most adept at hand to hand, and the Minotaurs and Carcharodons own face in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Less Fluff = more of empty talk....

Empty talk? Are you high? How does that even begin to make sense? Read IA 9 and 10. Just because the chapter isn't 10,000 years old and doesn't have a dozen books about them does not in any way mean their fluff is less legitimate.

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:

McNinja wrote:You all are aware that the Carcharadons and the Minotaurs were the two best close combat Chapters present in the Badab War, right? I like how those two chapters have been almost entirely dismissed in favor of arguing whether or not Space Wolves or Blood Angels are better.

Dude - just read some books - and if you won't read ,check out their known grand battles(lexicanum)... Its like Minotaurs 3 , SW -66 ,year of funding SW 30 m -Minotaurs -36 (so its like 6000 years of killing ahead),Books (SW) = A lot - minotaurs =0
In future don't compare any first founding chapter with xxx founding Mary Sue's...

I'm sorry, I didn't realize that all of the Space Wolves were immortal and the exact same ones from the HH. Silly me, assuming that poeple die and soldiers get replaced.

Your scoring system is terrible and I have no idea what it means.

And what books? The Space Wolves books? The Blood Angels books? I'm sorry, did IA 9 and 10 get lost somewhere? I don't give a damn is the Space Wolves fought the whole damn galaxy by themselves, the question was which chapters are most adept at hand to hand, and the Minotaurs and Carcharodons own face in close combat.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DatrhMarko wrote:

Less Fluff = more of empty talk....

Empty talk? Are you high? How does that even begin to make sense? Read IA 9 and 10. Just because the chapter isn't 10,000 years old and doesn't have a dozen books about them does not in any way mean their fluff is less legitimate.

Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)
And exp in killing - it's not individual - It's chapter thingy I' think

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

Durandal wrote:I have to go with SW over BA or others. Most other chapters stop sorting out troops once they are recruited. SWs are always sifting to the top.

You start out as a kid who fights, and only the most valiant and brave are chosen, especially if they die in combat.

Then you are blood claw, which rush to get headlong into melee.

Those that survive become grey hunters, who are always ready to get close and not afraid to get stuck in.

Then those who live long enough become Wolf Guard.

At every stage the marines are whittled down until only the most skilled remain. But at every stage they fight, and not just as bezerkers.

As the HH books made clear, the SW aren't just stupid bezerkers like the World Eaters or Death Company. In fact they keep that intelligent predatory edge that elevates them above fighters driven by fury alone.

So this would make them better then BA and others who rely just on fury.

Again, exactly the same line of progression as Black Templars except the Templars don't field their most experienced marines as fire support, they just give them even pointier sticks and point them at the enemy.

McNinja wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
Ok I'll buy the magazine...:-)

Ain't no magazine, tis Imperial Armor books. Browse, if you will, Forgeworld. You can get them from there or your local GW might have them.

I didn't mean to be offensive,but I always think that first founding chapters are unique in a way and have much more history that we can discuss,rest of them are like filling the gaps in storylines,that's my opinion and probably opinion of heresy fans - not your's I presume...like I' said didn't mean to be offensive