Which of the Space Marine Chapters are the most adept in Hand to Hand?

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**DarthMarko**

iGuy91 wrote:Wow, this turned into one heck of a thread didn't it?
I suppose i really haven't expressed my opinion on the mattter have I?

I would have to cast my vote for the Black Templars, that much Zealotry, and a doctrine of seeking out the biggest, baddest baddie the enemy has to offer, and coming away victorious has to make for some really strong warriors.

Just like the Space wolves, the templars test their new initiates by fire in the heat of close quarters battle, where they kill or be killed, learning from a senior member of the chapter.

Their most senior members still favor melee, unlike space wolves however, gaining some of the (likely) most potent weapons and armor in an Astartes Arsenal. I just envision a wave of Knights of Old, master swordsmen, but complete zealots for their cause, devotion unwavering.

I see Space Wolves and, Carcarodons as both being shock assault forces, hitting hard and fast, bleeding the enemy, then regrouping to fight again, which undoubtedly is effective.

I see the Blood Angels as being an Assault-favoring force, however their codex compliance I think limits their effectiveness somewhat, while they go full-on berzerker just like Space Wolves in combat, the fact that they can lose their minds makes their performance somewhat unpredictable in my book.

I suppose, it may also have to do with what enemy each chapter is fighting perhaps.

You just kicked the hornet's nest....and here we go again....

**DaddyWarcrimes**

thenoobbomb wrote:
Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Theyre not exactly codex, and more individual organisation.

And, if you happen to have read Emperor's Gift, don't hold a candle to the Wolves as warriors. They're just extremely well equipped specialists and specialists focused on ranged combat at that.

**Omegus**

redkommando wrote:And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

The codex is quite clear that only the most experienced and level-headed Marines who have mastered their inner rage (to some extent anyway) get to be Tactical marines, and it is considered a very high honor.

Sanguinary Guard is for the best of the best. They are on a whole different level entirely.

**thenoobbomb**

Sanguinary Guard are Half Gods.

**Pada**

BA got Sangunior too , i dont think that SW can much that

**Omegus**

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:
Seb wrote:No-one says Grey Knights?
They're a chapter IIRC, and they pretty much are better than any other chapter in any situation?

(Who said OP?)

Theyre not exactly codex, and more individual organisation.

And, if you happen to have read Emperor's Gift, don't hold a candle to the Wolves as warriors. They're just extremely well equipped specialists and specialists focused on ranged combat at that.

This is, of course, utter hyperbole and fanboyism, since the only actual GK vs. Space Wolves combat we see is when Logan Grimnar himself (yes, that Logan Grimnar) gibs a GK with a surprise attack. Granted, it was a high-ranking (GM?) GK, but from the start he was written to be as unlikable as possible and you knew he was going to bite the bullet. That was one of the few bits of poor writing in an otherwise excellent book.

Spoiler:

**redkommando**

Omegus wrote:
redkommando wrote:And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

The codex is quite clear that only the most experienced and level-headed Marines who have mastered their inner rage (to some extent anyway) get to be Tactical marines, and it is considered a very high honor.

Sanguinary Guard is for the best of the best. They are on a whole different level entirely.

"The Sanguinary Guard are the uttermost elite of the Blood Angels, proven in mind, body and spirit to uphold the values of their illustrious Primarch to an extent that no other can."
"To join the ranksof the Sanguinary Gurad is therefore no mere battlefield assignment, nor even an honour. Rather it is to enter a brotherhood of mortals-become-gods. . . "

And the Sanguinary Guard are still part of the BA chapter, so they still count. I'm not saying because the BA's have them, that makes BAs the bestest ever in HtH. What I am saying is that the best of this chapter are HtH specialists, whilst the best of the SW become either Long Fangs or eventualy get to Wolf Guard (which doesn't mean your amazing at H2H, its easyier to get into the Wolf Gurad than it is to the Sanguinary Guard)

And anyway, why don't we just say that There are several chapters that are great at close combat, but they specialise in different areas of H2H.
BT- Dueling and Personal combats (Enemy Leaders and such)
BA- Rage filled Genocide (Hordes)
SW and Space Sharks- Shock and Awe (A little bit of both)

**Elector**

redkommando wrote:And anyway, why don't we just say that There are several chapters that are great at close combat, but they specialise in different areas of H2H.
BT- Dueling and Personal combats (Enemy Leaders and such)
BA- Rage filled Genocide (Hordes)
SW and Space Sharks- Shock and Awe (A little bit of both)

I agree on every count. There is no other way to decide, because no specifics were laid down in the original question.

**DarthMarko**

Pada wrote:BA got Sangunior too , i dont think that SW can much that

O yeah they have great 13th,Wulfen and Bjorn( living relic who fought with E )in most advanced Dred Armor.....

and there is also wolfguard which are demigods FOR ME...

But this thread lost objectivity 3-4 pages ago - there's no way you can say "these are better than these"...
I know from my pov on fluff that nobody can top the SW in ferrocity and you know that BA are the best - so let's leave it there - this is to much vague topic to discuss

**Elector**

I don't think you get how the Wulfen is essentially the same thing as a BA suffering from the Black Rage/Red Thirst.

Except lesser, because you forget the Wulfen are what aspirants who fail turn into. They aren't a big part of the army. it's not a bonus to their skill. It's a "if you succumb you are exiled and forced to hunt in the wilderness like an animal", either that or be part of a small minority who become hulking bloodthirsty beasts when greatly stressed. (from the SW codex)

**DarthMarko**

Elector wrote:I don't think you get how the Wulfen is essentially the same thing as a BA suffering from the Black Rage/Red Thirst.

Except lesser, because you forget the Wulfen are what aspirants who fail turn into. They aren't a big part of the army. it's not a bonus to their skill. It's a "if you succumb you are exiled and forced to hunt in the wilderness like an animal", either that or be part of a small minority who become hulking bloodthirsty beasts when greatly stressed. (from the SW codex)

But they are used as a weapon, aren't they(when somebody needs to break the line ) ? And I belive Russ is somewhere in the warp still- with his wolfguard and Sanguinius is KFC :-) ....

**AlmightyWalrus**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Dark Angels wear skirts, Black Templars wear Tabards.

McNinja wrote:
Thank you

well, first off, fixed that for you, and second, I agree. The problem is no one is comparing feats, tactics, or much of anything.

**thenoobbomb**

Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

**AlmightyWalrus**

thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

I think you'll find that what he did was die. Not sure how that's gonna save anyone.

**Elector**

DarthMarko wrote:
But they are used as a weapon, aren't they(when somebody needs to break the line ) ? And I belive Russ is somewhere in the warp still- with his wolfguard and Sanguinius is KFC :-) ....

KFC? Did you just call him Kentucky Fried Chicken? (And no, the Wulfen are not used in that sense. Not based on any readings I found in the codex. The Death Company, OTOH, are used like that, yes).

I don't object to the notion that the SW are very talented in close combat. What I object to is your implying that every other Chapter is a bunch of pansies who can't handle close combat. The Blood Angels, and, more especially, the Black Templar, are also very powerful and skilled hand-to-hand fighters. The difference is each Chapter has their own specialization and fighting style, each very effective.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

I think you'll find that what he did was die. Not sure how that's gonna save anyone.

Depends on how you view the "Chink in Horus' armor" bit of fluff.

**DarthMarko**

Elector wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:
But they are used as a weapon, aren't they(when somebody needs to break the line ) ? And I belive Russ is somewhere in the warp still- with his wolfguard and Sanguinius is KFC :-) ....

KFC? Did you just call him Kentucky Fried Chicken? (And no, the Wulfen are not used in that sense. Not based on any readings I found in the codex. The Death Company, OTOH, are used like that, yes).

I don't object to the notion that the SW are very talented in close combat. What I object to is your implying that every other Chapter is a bunch of pansies who can't handle close combat. The Blood Angels, and, more especially, the Black Templar, are also very powerful and skilled hand-to-hand fighters. The difference is each Chapter has their own specialization and fighting style, each very effective.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:Atleast Sanguinius saved the world from chaos when dying.

I think you'll find that what he did was die. Not sure how that's gonna save anyone.

Depends on how you view the "Chink in Horus' armor" bit of fluff.

Yep I' did (because of the wings and fight with Horus obviously :-)But I love the guy so don't be offended, he is my number 2 awesome primarch ....and btw on Prospero wulfen did break the line of TS slaughtering everybody until Magnus toss them around....
And where did I piss on BA or BT ? I simply speak for SW and point the obvious....

**Tyr Grimtooth**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Dark Angels wear skirts, Black Templars wear Tabards.

As Brother Ramses posted at the Bolter & Chainsword (who also posts here);

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BT are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

**thenoobbomb**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BA are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Did you just insult an army because they do not wear skirts or dresses? BA wear pants!

**Tyr Grimtooth**

thenoobbomb wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BA are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Did you just insult an army because they do not wear skirts or dresses? BA wear pants!

Yea, I edited it to clear it up. But since you do bring up BA, the nipple armor does beg the question, why?

**Pada**

guys all SM wear Power Amor

some just put a leather upon in

**thenoobbomb**

wearing a skirt or dress over pants is not cool.

**Elector**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
thenoobbomb wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

"DA wear dresses. BT wear skirts. BA are just a sluttier and trashier version of DA."

Did you just insult an army because they do not wear skirts or dresses? BA wear pants!

Yea, I edited it to clear it up. But since you do bring up BA, the nipple armor does beg the question, why?

Actually, in Ancient Roman art, scenes with Roman Emperors or the gods depicted highly ornamented "muscle cuirasses" (the kind Sanguinary Guard wear. Shows the idealized muscular physique). Often with nipples and a belly-button.

If you go by that, it makes sense.

**phoenix darkus**

Sigismund wasn't the first Emperor's Champion for nothing!
Fluff says no one ever beat him in a duel.
Black Templars all the way!

**Diesel Stradin**

Yeah... as per brutality and pure robustness, I'll call Space Wolves as one on the top. As for zealousness and blood-craving, Flesh Tears and Minataur come pretty close but as for the actual skill with the blade, I'll have to name GK or Black Templars.

**MonsterofFenris**

Sorry but someone said that Wulfen are aspirants who fell to the curse? this is correct to some degree but any space wolf can become a wulfen, so if it were a WG it would be a whole lot more dangerous than a barely initiated marine. I'd say that if that were the case then Wulfen would definitely be par with DC, in some cases surpassing them in ferociousness.

**redrooster148**

I would of said flesh tearers they are so aggressive and assualt oriented they have almost driven themselves to extiction.

And gabriel seth is just the coolest chapter master ever

**Elector**

MonsterofFenris wrote:Sorry but someone said that Wulfen are aspirants who fell to the curse? this is correct to some degree but any space wolf can become a wulfen, so if it were a WG it would be a whole lot more dangerous than a barely initiated marine. I'd say that if that were the case then Wulfen would definitely be par with DC, in some cases surpassing them in ferociousness.

Those who suffer from the Curse after the first time are a minority, and those who do succumb after the initiation are either reined in by the Wolf Priests (who basically stop them from fully descending into the bestial madness) or are considered irredeemable.

You don't stay in a battle company as a Wulfen. It's a fall from grace. (and I did mention those who can succumb later)

redrooster148 wrote:I would of said flesh tearers they are so aggressive and assualt oriented they have almost driven themselves to extiction.

And gabriel seth is just the coolest chapter master ever

The Flesh Tearers are extremely aggressive and ferocious, and I love how Gabriel Seth is devoted to turning his Chapter from a untrusted force with a grim reputation into one that would be remembered in the halls of glory. It's a nice addition to the fluff that really redeems them (and Seth) as tragic warriors in my eyes.

But they aren't near extinction because of their aggressiveness, they're rushing headlong into extinction because the rate that they succumb to the Black Rage is higher than the rate at which they can produce more Marines. Eventually they'll run out of the sane ones.