Which of the Space Marine Chapters are the most adept in Hand to Hand?

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**Tyr Grimtooth**

Buttons wrote:
Durandal wrote:
Both were assigned to destroy wayward chapters and did so directly. Unlike the Lamenters and Mantis chapters that would give quarter.

Minotaurs did give quarters, if they didn't than the Lamenters would have been completely wiped out.

So far, neither chapter has as many exploits to their name as the first founding chapters.

No duh, the first founding chapters have been around twice as long and frequently people include exploits from when they were full fledged legions.

Also, any chapter that relies on berzerker rages will be inferior to SW, since SW are markedly better, fluff wise, once they conquer their inner wolf and stop raging out.

Uh no, even if they aren't as skilled, a Blood Angel suffering from the black rage will rip a space wolf in half if only because of their far superior strength. Also, bersekers have the advantage of being unpredictable.

So they could meet the Minotaurs or Sharks on the berzerker front, but chose not to because they are more deadly when in control of their rage.

Neither of the chapters are outright berserkers (currently at least), they are aggressive and ruthless, but the Minotaurs have long since tamed their aggression and managed to crush even a Blood Angels' successor chapter in close combat. The Space Wolves haven't had any victories against Astartes since the battle of the Fang to my knowledge, while the Minotaurs have nearly wiped out at least 2 chapters since the Macharian Heresy.

Likewise the BA have DC, which rage, but the fluff shows that their swordsmanship suffers in that state and it's only the ability to shrug off wounds and keep fighting that is the DC's advantage.

Which is a massive advantage. So you managed to land a blow on the Blood Angel, he will shrug it off and tear your head off using his superior strength.

The templar, while skilled fanatics, are ultimately Dorn's followers and are limited by Dorn's semi-adherence to the codex asarties.

lolno. The whole spiel about the Black Templars is that they disregard the Codex Astartes completely, in literally every way, from squad organization, to size, to company level organization.

And lets not forget the SW are the only chapter that goes out and beats down a monster 3x their own size with nothing but their bare hands just because the SW don't like to walk everywhere now that the Emperor has taken their teleporters.

What monster would that be? Besides several IG regiments are known for killing big animals, killing something big isn't that amazing for astartes.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

So as I said, the best of the best, least mutated mutants, make up the recruiting pool of the BA.

Okay, none of those are really mutations, just signs of a hard life, you do not get lesions or get hungry, or stigmata from radiation or direct mutation. They are far from pretty, yes, but being ugly isn't a mutation.

A Fenrisian child that won't grasp the close combat weapon that pretty much defines not only Fenrisians but the Space Wolves is considered useless, discarded, and left to die. As previously quoted, the only one to have stunted growth and health issues are BA.

So grabbing an axe as a child makes on a great warrior? A random cultural tradition like that doesn't make one a good warrior. Also, of course I am not a Space Wolf player, it is an annoying army. Vampires in space, I can take, Mongols in space, fine, vikings in space, fine, wolf people in space who use the word wolf, fang, claw, or something else relating to wolf in every other word is just annoying. At least the Blood Angels are a bit more creative using the word sanguinary instead of blood.

And being highly mobile does not constitute combat prowess otherwise Ork Speed Freaks would be the king of close combat, which we know isn't true.

Except the best marines don't become tactical marines, they become assault marines, and hopefully move on all the way to Sanguinary Guard. Also, speed and mobility offers versatility, and for a dedicated close combat unit, the ability to come to grips with the enemy faster, which is invaluable. While the wolves are slowly trudging towards the enemy, the Blood Angels can descend on jump packs.

4. You push their special rules as if that displays combat prowess. That might promote lethality, but not prowess. Something you obviously cannot tell the difference. BA are no different then a person on PCP, stronger, no sense mortality, and appear impervious to pain. However after the fight, like a person on PCP, they die due to the injuries sustained. That isn't being skilled in close combat.

Read a codex instead of just running off about IA and Lexicanum.

Lethality>Prowess, woohoo you can spin a sword around, that matters little when you are dead. Also, individuals suffering from the Black Rage are frequently put down after a battle anyway, so whether they live or die from their wounds matters little.

So you are actually a troll fluff nub then.

The fact that you think that close combat boils down to Lethality over Prowess shows how clueless you are in this matter.

Close combat is not just about killing your enemy. It is about killing them and surviving to kill more of them. You cling to this idea that as long as the enemy died, you won despite dying yourself. That is called a draw. If that was the case a single SM with a cyclonic warhead strapped to his back with a deadman's trigger in his hand is the best close combat SM ever. He may die in close combat, but he takes out an entire continent!!!

So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

I am done with your blathering based in fanboism and not on what is actually written.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

**Tyr Grimtooth**

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

**iGuy91**

Lets not start a flame war fellas.

**LoneLictor**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

**BloodAngels Brother**

If the best Become Tac Marines why is most of 1st Company Assault Squads?
The Blood Angels do forgo a lot of finesse for pure hatred and power. But they are not mindless beasts to be thrown to slaughter. They fight as there primarch would with his power.
In the case of a veteran Sgt who was able to take out a Chaos Dreadnought by allowing it to crush most of his lower body so that he could kill the pilot from underneath
As for the recrutes I dont have my codex on me but From what I have seen they go thrue the basics of every outher chapeters recruting (there are exemtions to the rule but thats neather here or there)
From the SW side of the house you have to have fallen in glorious battle it stats nothing of the combat ability of the individule or the phisical condition...
Now to end all of this the whos right ans whos wrong. No one is eather. They are all Battle Brothers who excel at close quarters some Brothers are better than outhers with in the Chapter but as a whole Chapters are evened So If this must so on let us all do it like Sirs and not like Trolls.

Thank you

**DarthMarko**

LoneLictor wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

Red: Well that speaks something of you ....
Blue:Bravo you haven't read any books,did you?Please don't insult something you don't know nothing about.(even in a jesting tone)...

**LoneLictor**

DarthMarko wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

Red: Well that speaks something of you ....
Blue:Bravo you haven't read any books,did you?Please don't insult something you don't know nothing about.(even in a jesting tone)...

What the red part speaks about me is that I'm not an intolerant asshat. I don't give a feth what people wear or what they do in the privacy in their bedrooms.

As for the blue part, yes, it is in Deliverance Lost. Though it doesn't explicitly state that they are hairier and dumber, it does state that they possibly have some crazy wolf genetic stuff that would probably explain them being dumber and hairier than most other Chapters.

EDIT: And besides, the Space Wolves suck eggs compared to the Space Sharks anyways. Even if the Space Wolves weren't hairy idiots, they'd still be worse. And they'll always be worse.

**Iron Father 575**

I would say Carcharodons.

**DarthMarko**

LoneLictor wrote:
DarthMarko wrote:
LoneLictor wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

The same way that you ignore that the Black Templars do the same thing except they don't put their most experienced troops at the back to shoot heavy weapons at people?

I haven't ignored you skirt wearers, I just haven't begun to address all your short comings yet.

Be careful about calling the Black Templars 'skirt wearers', especially when the Space Wolves you've been defending are.... (ahem)

Anti intellectual space furries (there is nothing wrong with being a furry by the way, just like there is nothing wrong with wearing a skirt) who were led by a drunken bafoon that went missing in the Eye of Terror after accomplishing nothing beyond driving the Thousand Sons to become Traitors, inadvertently hurting the Imperium. According to Deliverance Lost (a book I don't really like), they even have wolf DNA or something in their geneseed, meaning that they are dumber and hairier than other Chapters.

Bam.

EDIT: Since you can't hear me over the Internet, I'd like to clarify that I am speaking in a 'jesting' tone. I am not angry and I do not mean to seriously or personally insult anyone or anything.

Red: Well that speaks something of you ....
Blue:Bravo you haven't read any books,did you?Please don't insult something you don't know nothing about.(even in a jesting tone)...

What the red part speaks about me is that I'm not an intolerant asshat. I don't give a feth what people wear or what they do in the privacy in their bedrooms.

As for the blue part, yes, it is in Deliverance Lost. Though it doesn't explicitly state that they are hairier and dumber, it does state that they possibly have some crazy wolf genetic stuff that would probably explain them being dumber and hairier than most other Chapters.

EDIT: And besides, the Space Wolves suck eggs compared to the Space Sharks anyways. Even if the Space Wolves weren't hairy idiots, they'd still be worse. And they'll always be worse.

So SM in a skirt - OK (probably because you are too)....and you judge wolves from "Deliverance Lost" (book about RG btw),seriously dude,that is where this conversation ends

**Orblivion**

It should have ended 2 pages ago. This thread has been nothing but a pissing contest since.

**LoneLictor**

Orblivion wrote:It should have ended 2 pages ago. This thread has been nothing but a pissing contest since.

Sharks piss poison through their skin. Once again, the Space Sharks win.

**Orblivion**

LoneLictor wrote:
Orblivion wrote:It should have ended 2 pages ago. This thread has been nothing but a pissing contest since.

Sharks piss poison through their skin. Once again, the Space Sharks win.

I'll give you internet points for that, but that's all you're getting.

**McNinja**

BloodAngels Brother wrote:If the best Become Tac Marines why is most of 1st Company Assault Squads? The Blood Angels do forgo a lot of finesse for pure hatred and power, but they are not mindless beasts to be thrown to slaughter; they fight as there primarch would with his power, in the case of a veteran Sgt who was able to take out a Chaos Dreadnought by allowing it to crush most of his lower body so that he could kill the pilot from underneath.

As for the recruits I don't have my codex on me but from what I have seen they go through the basics of every other chapters recruiting (there are exemptions to the rule but that's neither here or there).

From the SW side of the house you have to have fallen in glorious battle it states nothing of the combat ability of the individual or their physical condition...

Now to end all of this the whos right and who's wrong. No one is either. They are all Battle Brothers who excel at close quarters. Some Brothers are better than others within the Chapter but as a whole Chapters are even. If this must so on let us all do it like Sirs and not like Trolls.

Thank you

well, first off, fixed that for you, and second, I agree. The problem is no one is comparing feats, tactics, or much of anything.

**AegisGrimm**

Space Wolves 13th company.

Sent into the warp by Russ to hunt Chaos marines after the Emperor's enthronement, and emerged again during the 13th Crusade of Abaddon. As far as the fluff suggested, because of the time warping effects of the Eye of Terror, they are all original founding Space Wolves from the time of the Heresy, with all the inherent benefits over modern marines whose geneseed may have been watered down.

Hell, they use whole packs of Wolfen led by Wolf Priests as their elite assault units, and repair their armor with that of fallen foes. they also supposedly have better senses than even a modern Space Wolf, as (back when they were legal to field) the whole army (other than terminator armor and bikes) got to make a legal move before the players even roll to see who goes first.

**Omegus**

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:So just stop already. I showed you that BA come from a bunch of mutants and you needed to back track your pure blood statement. I showed you that the recruiting pool of the SW is superior to the BA, not only physically, but also in warrior culture and you try to downplay it. You can't even follow the BA codex where it says that the very best BA become Tactical Marines, thus foregoing their close combat weaponry completely.

Blood Angel aspirants are not mutants, they are more like hard-bitten survivors of a Fallout-esque deathworld, replete with pockets of radiation, endless stretches of uninhabitable terrain and dust storms, cannibals, raiders, and all manner of mutated and deformed monsters. Fenris culture is basically tribes of coastal raiders/hunter-gatherers that are forced to pack up all their gak and fight among themselves for new patches of land every few years. Which makes for a superior recruiting pool is debatable. It's also debatable if the lives they lead before becoming full-fledged Space Marines have a huge bearing on their present skill-set. Many books give indication that Marines remember little from their "human" life, and a couple of decades (at most) of hard-scrabble living seems a drop in a bucket compared to centuries of battle and combat training.

Anyway, during the time of the Horus Heresy, the big rivalry for "most ferocious" Legion is between the World Eaters and Blood Angels, with the Space Wolves and Luna Hounds also being serious contenders. You could argue the Night Lords also had a terrifying reputation, but IMO they were terrifying mostly to helpless civilian populations. Their antics would have little effect on (and inspire even less respect in) other Astartes.

In modern times, the most ferocious Chapter is probably some off-shoot of Blood Angels. Space Wolves go through their reckless close combat-hungry phase as Blood Claws, but their enthusiasm is eventually tempered by experience and age, and they become more calculating and tactical warriors (Grey Hunters and then devastators). Likewise, Blood Angel recruits graduate to full service into Assault Squads, and only the most level-headed and experienced join tactical and devastator squads. While some Space Wolves do never graduate from the Blood Claws and/or succumb to their "inner wolf"(or whatever), this doesn't seem to happen with the same regularity as the Blood Angels' Red Thirst, particularly if you consider off-shoots like the Flesh Tearers, Angels Encarmine, or Knights of Blood.

Just how much ferocity translates to hand-to-hand prowess is also debatable. Skill can overcome raw fury and vice versa. Who would win in a fight would likely be determined by the individual marines.

**BloodAngels Brother**

**DarthMarko**

The gene-seed of the Space Wolves gifts the chapter's members with enhanced, animalistic abilities, including hyper-acute senses of hearing and smell, and a ferocity in battle that is almost unrivaled by any other Space Marines

Lexicanum

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Omegus wrote:

Anyway, during the time of the Horus Heresy, the big rivalry for "most ferocious" Legion is between the World Eaters and Blood Angels, with the Space Wolves and Luna Hounds also being serious contenders. You could argue the Night Lords also had a terrifying reputation, but IMO they were terrifying mostly to helpless civilian populations. Their antics would have little effect on (and inspire even less respect in) other Astartes.

Well that's like just your opinion dude....

**Omegus**

Yeah, "almost".

**DarthMarko**

Omegus wrote:Yeah, "almost".

Touche...:-)But still

**Omegus**

What's important is that you don't want to feth with any of them.

**Grey elder**

Some where I read that the space wolves look down upon the blood angels in combat because instead of fighting like an intelligent predator I,E wolf the instead fight like that of a rapid dog, (not word for word but the main sentiment is there)

**BloodAngels Brother**

Grey elder wrote:Some where I read that the space wolves look down upon the blood angels in combat because instead of fighting like an intelligent predator I,E wolf the instead fight like that of a rapid dog, (not word for word but the main sentiment is there)

Even a Wolf backed into a corner will fight like a rabid dog.

**redkommando**

And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

**Grey elder**

BloodAngels Brother wrote:
Grey elder wrote:Some where I read that the space wolves look down upon the blood angels in combat because instead of fighting like an intelligent predator I,E wolf the instead fight like that of a rapid dog, (not word for word but the main sentiment is there)

Even a Wolf backed into a corner will fight like a rabid dog.

Incorrect Sir, it would fight like a cornered Wolf, and woe be to those stupid enough to corner it.

**Riddick40k**

I'll throw out the Flesh Eaters, they truly are the futuristic vampires

**LumenPraebeo**

This argument still ongoing? So I heard there's this basic reasoning that the Astartes that could beat the other Astartes in hand to hand would be the best in hand to hand. You people argue as if you have the knowledge to assume safely that one can beat the other. But when it comes to any type of martial victory, the victor is never strictly the strongest, most skilled, most ferocious, or the most lucky. It is a combination of all of these and the conditions, the chances, the timing, and the assets with which you fight that decides who beats the other. You can always think simple and watch the actions of the warrior, and presume that whoever is more skilled or experienced will emerge the victor, but know that behind any warriors action is many days of training, conditioning, mentality, plans, resources, knowledge gained that leads to any of millions of actions by these warriors that will ultimately decide the course of small moments in history. So with that in mind,I will go back to that question. Which of the Space Marine Chapters are the most adept in Hand to Hand? I can only answer by saying whichever Chapter that beats the other chapter in hand to hand.

**thenoobbomb**

redkommando wrote:And the best Blood Angels don't become Tac Marines, They become Sanguinary Guard. Which are basicly Terminators with Jump Packs

In relic armor.

Knights of Blood still most dangerous in cc.

**baxter123**

Going on those choices, the SW 'caus they're hybrid wolves
But personally fluff wise the Disciples of Caliban also known as the DA are the best in combat. In fact they have 2 full companies based soley on combat (Deathwing and Ravenwing) and they wear robes and normally brandish swords. The origins of the chapter are also based on a Death World not so different to Catachan.

**iGuy91**

Wow, this turned into one heck of a thread didn't it?
I suppose i really haven't expressed my opinion on the mattter have I?

I would have to cast my vote for the Black Templars, that much Zealotry, and a doctrine of seeking out the biggest, baddest baddie the enemy has to offer, and coming away victorious has to make for some really strong warriors.

Just like the Space wolves, the templars test their new initiates by fire in the heat of close quarters battle, where they kill or be killed, learning from a senior member of the chapter.

Their most senior members still favor melee, unlike space wolves however, gaining some of the (likely) most potent weapons and armor in an Astartes Arsenal. I just envision a wave of Knights of Old, master swordsmen, but complete zealots for their cause, devotion unwavering.

I see Space Wolves and, Carcarodons as both being shock assault forces, hitting hard and fast, bleeding the enemy, then regrouping to fight again, which undoubtedly is effective.

I see the Blood Angels as being an Assault-favoring force, however their codex compliance I think limits their effectiveness somewhat, while they go full-on berzerker just like Space Wolves in combat, the fact that they can lose their minds makes their performance somewhat unpredictable in my book.

I suppose, it may also have to do with what enemy each chapter is fighting perhaps.