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Fido198674 wrote:So no one brought up the White Scars? They are pretty handy with a blade......

According to Index Astartes they actually prefer to avoid close combat by outmaneuvering and employing close range fire in hit and run attacks.

Flesh Tearers! When your chapter master gets stuck in with a MASSIVE two handed chainsword named "Bloodreaver", spins around in gory arcs while kicking dudes in the gentleman sausage area and headbutting enemies without a helmet. Then not only do you have the best hand to hand fighting chapter ever, but the AWESOMEST!

Black Templars. What's that, you shot my mate? Well, Imma run at ya faster now!

Oh, and the Emperor's Champion is pretty hard to trump.

To be a bit more on-topic: Space Wolves are more of a short-range firefight Chapter that finish the enemy off with brutal charges. Similarly, the Blood Angels don't have more Assault Marines than other Chapters, they're just the most prominent part of the Chapter. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

Ultrafool wrote:Flesh Tearers! When your chapter master gets stuck in with a MASSIVE two handed chainsword named "Bloodreaver", spins around in gory arcs while kicking dudes in the gentleman sausage area and headbutting enemies without a helmet. Then not only do you have the best hand to hand fighting chapter ever, but the AWESOMEST!

Once again, Knights of Blood are even more brutal.
They got declared renegade for their mass violence.

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

Pilau Rice wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

The Minotaurs are a 21st (Cursed) Founding Chapter...

EDIT: And there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

The Minotaurs are a 21st (Cursed) Founding Chapter...

EDIT: And there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter.

Who said first founding Chapter, I said first founding as in the original Legions, and if rumours are true, which aren't proven as they are rumours, then the Minotaurs are rumoured to be first founding.

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

DatrhMarko wrote:
You said Minotaurs already...but I' think they can't compete with first founding chapters like BA or SW, not for a mile...
.

If rumours are found to be true, they are first founding

With blades, I guess the Dark Angels would be fairly adept, being Khnighuts.

The Minotaurs are a 21st (Cursed) Founding Chapter...

EDIT: And there's no such thing as a First Founding Chapter.

Who said first founding Chapter, I said first founding as in the original Legions, and if rumours are true, which aren't proven as they are rumours, then the Minotaurs are rumoured to be first founding.

You didn't, but the guy you quoted did.

Also, where'd you get these "rumors" from? They're clearly listed as a 21st founding Chapter in IA10.

thenoobbomb wrote:

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

Bah, all you Blood Angels successors prancing around in golden armour are cowards. The Minotaurs bumped into a Blood Angel successor chapter once. Only 200 managed to survive, most of them were wounded, and all of them were captured.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Buttons wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

Bah, all you Blood Angels successors prancing around in golden armour are cowards. The Minotaurs bumped into a Blood Angel successor chapter once. Only 200 managed to survive, most of them were wounded, and all of them were captured.

i want to see which batle was that

Pada wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Being good at close combat generally entails surviving afterwards, something the Death Company isn't exactly known for. And yes, the Red Thirst makes the Blood Angels better at close combat, but the bulk of their forces aren't supposed to primarily engage as melee units, which is why the Red Thirst is a flaw.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Also, where'd you get these "rumors" from? They're clearly listed as a 21st founding Chapter in IA10.

The whole 21st Founding was made under a dubious environment, with possible interference by none other than Fabius Bile. The Sons of Anteus are mentioned to have similarities to the Death Guard and the Minotaurs are often referred to as Bezerkers, now which other Legion had those?

It's just rumours though like I said, there isn't any specific evidence like the origins of the Blood Angels

thenoobbomb wrote:

Ultrafool wrote:Flesh Tearers! When your chapter master gets stuck in with a MASSIVE two handed chainsword named "Bloodreaver", spins around in gory arcs while kicking dudes in the gentleman sausage area and headbutting enemies without a helmet. Then not only do you have the best hand to hand fighting chapter ever, but the AWESOMEST!

Once again, Knights of Blood are even more brutal.
They got declared renegade for their mass violence.

If the timeline wouldn't be stuck at 999.999.999.999.M41, the same would go for the Fleshtearers, though!

I say any sons of Baal.

Yes the Blood Angels have the same amount of Assault Squads as the Codex requires, but there are always replacements, as EVERY Blood Angel Marine prefers to be in an assault squad

I was under the impression the Knights of Blood were declared renegade more due to their obsession with blood and their drinking of said blood, rather than the mass violence bit.

Pilau Rice wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Also, where'd you get these "rumors" from? They're clearly listed as a 21st founding Chapter in IA10.

The whole 21st Founding was made under a dubious environment, with possible interference by none other than Fabius Bile. The Sons of Anteus are mentioned to have similarities to the Death Guard and the Minotaurs are often referred to as Bezerkers, now which other Legion had those?

It's just rumours though like I said, there isn't any specific evidence like the origins of the Blood Angels

Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

iGuy91 wrote:I was under the impression the Knights of Blood were declared renegade more due to their obsession with blood and their drinking of said blood, rather than the mass violence bit.

No the Blood Drinkers drink blood (funny that) but it helps them combat the red thirst, because they drink it all the time?? maybe. . .

iGuy91 wrote:I was under the impression the Knights of Blood were declared renegade more due to their obsession with blood and their drinking of said blood, rather than the mass violence bit.

Nope, the Knights of Blood are the guys that )truly' accidently murder guard regiments while fighting.
Anything gets close= Throw away bolter, and fistsmack and bite ´em

Pada wrote:

Buttons wrote:

thenoobbomb wrote:

Pada wrote:

Manchu wrote:No one mentioned them yet???

Flesh Tearers! The name says it all.

they are second. Knights of blood are so brutal that he declerad hereticus.still doing crusades thought

Hey, why you think it's Knights of Blood I collect?
Knights of Blood, Flesh Tearers, Blood Angels, Space Wolves.
Ofcourse, if we can add chaos, world eaters would be somewhere around Knights of Blood.

Bah, all you Blood Angels successors prancing around in golden armour are cowards. The Minotaurs bumped into a Blood Angel successor chapter once. Only 200 managed to survive, most of them were wounded, and all of them were captured.

i want to see which batle was that

Babad War, they engaged the Lamenters in a close quarters fleet action and tore them apart.

The Lamenters don't even count (well they do but hey) They don't have Death Company ( I know there is a nice picture of one) according to the chapter approved article on them.

And look at the name: Lamenters.
They Lament all the time, no wonder they are so gloomy

redkommando wrote:The Lamenters don't even count (well they do but hey) They don't have Death Company ( I know there is a nice picture of one) according to the chapter approved article on them.

And look at the name: Lamenters.
They Lament all the time, no wonder they are so gloomy

And they send rediculous claims to BA and succesors, wich seem false.

While the Blood Angels and their successors are more skilled in close combat than your average Chapter - mostly due to their pursuit of perfection in all forms - it's only their ferocity that gives them a true advantage. So I wouldn't say they're more "adept".

No, that one has to go Space Wolves, much as I hate to admit it. It's even in their statistics! Virtually every character they have has +1WS compared to the equivalent from other Codexes.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pada wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Being good at close combat generally entails surviving afterwards, something the Death Company isn't exactly known for. And yes, the Red Thirst makes the Blood Angels better at close combat, but the bulk of their forces aren't supposed to primarily engage as melee units, which is why the Red Thirst is a flaw.

Being good in close combat entails killing the other guy before you get killed.

Something the death Company is known for. They die mostly after the battles, from wounds they straight up ignored that would kill other Marines. And the Flaw is a flaw because it both brings about insanity and could make a ranged fighter into a powerful, berserker melee combatant at an inopportune time.

But if we're asking who's better at melee, it's not a flaw. At least in that regard. Also the bulk of their forces are very adept at close combat. Every one of them can replace a fallen Assault Marine, which is noted as why the Assault Squads are generally filled while the rest of the force can be very under-manned.

(But otherwise, someone asked a valid question we never looked into: Are we considering ferocity or skill here?

Ferocity-wise, I'd say either Death Company or Space Wolves. Skill-wise... Not sure, I don't know enough to say)

Hmmm... My first thought was the Dark Angels. I am going through the Horus Heresy and it seems at least up the Thousand Sons (where I am) that they are described as being incredibly skilled fighters. If not them, then I would turn to the Luna Wolves simply for the reason they have more experience.

Elector wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Pada wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:. I'd argue that the Blood Angels are more akin to a more melee-centric version of the White Scars, using superior speed to concentrate their fighting power to a few key areas andbreaking them with Assault Marines supported by Baal Predators and Devastators. By comparison, the Black Templars are as blunt as a sledgehammer. Their entire modus operandi is to get into close combat with the bulk of their force ASAP, as evidenced by their introduction of the Land Raider Crusader and their preference of Crusade-wide Drop Pod insertions.

BA are good on close-combat because their Red thirst and Black rage

Being good at close combat generally entails surviving afterwards, something the Death Company isn't exactly known for. And yes, the Red Thirst makes the Blood Angels better at close combat, but the bulk of their forces aren't supposed to primarily engage as melee units, which is why the Red Thirst is a flaw.

Being good in close combat entails killing the other guy before you get killed.

Something the death Company is known for. They die mostly after the battles, from wounds they straight up ignored that would kill other Marines. And the Flaw is a flaw because it both brings about insanity and could make a ranged fighter into a powerful, berserker melee combatant at an inopportune time.

But if we're asking who's better at melee, it's not a flaw. At least in that regard. Also the bulk of their forces are very adept at close combat. Every one of them can replace a fallen Assault Marine, which is noted as why the Assault Squads are generally filled while the rest of the force can be very under-manned.

(But otherwise, someone asked a valid question we never looked into: Are we considering ferocity or skill here?

Ferocity-wise, I'd say either Death Company or Space Wolves. Skill-wise... Not sure, I don't know enough to say)

Not really, marines are expensive, killing a hundred guardsmen and losing a single marine in one battle is worse than killing 50 guardsmen and losing no marines in a battle.

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

Flesh Tearers.

I'm surprised they aren't Khornate yet.

I'm not quite sure what the OP wants to know exactly, but if I read the OP right it's who's the best with 'sword play' (perhaps any HTH weapon?).

I think some folks are getting brutality with a propensity for close combat and skill at such things confused...

There are numerous Chapters which make a claim to brilliant "sword play" as a honed skill set for the entire unit.

The SW are brutal, but to call them HTH weapon specialists is a bit much. The Custodes, while not a Chapter per se, are the opitome of HTH weapon masters. The Grey Knights in my opinion come closest to this style IMHO, but their abilities are offset by 'magicks' so I'm only 80% with that call.

I don't have my Marine Codex in front of me, but there is a Chapter that has had a representative win more than any other at the "Feast of Blades" tournament and that has to count for something.

Manchu wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...

There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.

The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

Uhlan wrote:I'm not quite sure what the OP wants to know exactly, but if I read the OP right it's who's the best with 'sword play' (perhaps any HTH weapon?).

I think some folks are getting brutality with a propensity for close combat and skill at such things confused...

There are numerous Chapters which make a claim to brilliant "sword play" as a honed skill set for the entire unit.

The SW are brutal, but to call them HTH weapon specialists is a bit much. The Custodes, while not a Chapter per se, are the opitome of HTH weapon masters. The Grey Knights in my opinion come closest to this style IMHO, but their abilities are offset by 'magicks' so I'm only 80% with that call.

I don't have my Marine Codex in front of me, but there is a Chapter that has had a representative win more than any other at the "Feast of Blades" tournament and that has to count for something.

This is more what I was referring to. I mean, Orks are BRUTAL in melee, but I wouldn't call them "Skilled" per-se