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Made in eu
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

Uhlan wrote:
I don't have my Marine Codex in front of me, but there is a Chapter that has had a representative win more than any other at the "Feast of Blades" tournament and that has to count for something.


That's an Imperial Fists and its successors exclusive though and it's about the individual rather than a Chapter. All Chapters have their Marine or marines who are Champions.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/01 15:44:10


No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...
There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.


The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.
   
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Space Wolves
   
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Dakka Veteran



Eye of Terra.

Buttons wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...
There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.


The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.


Color me ignorant, but is this a fan theory or is there more proof than just the few references surrounding the Blood Ravens Chapter?
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

Buttons wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...
There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.


The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.


AFAIK, Death Guard were originally not any more durable than any other Marine. It was more of an implacable, stalwart nature rather than individual durability.
Deliverance Lost does however state that Perturabo has "unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others [Primarchs]", which means that it may be a similar case with his sons/The Iron Warriors...

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
Solahma






RVA

Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...
There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.
The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.
Similarly, Alan Blight talks about the "beserker rages" in one of the Badab War books -- I'd still say this isn't an "official connection" in the sense Just Dave meant. I took him to mean something like Goto's DoW novels.

   
Made in eu
Alluring Sorcerer of Slaanesh






Reading, UK

Uhlan wrote:
Color me ignorant, but is this a fan theory or is there more proof than just the few references surrounding the Blood Ravens Chapter?


It's just fan theory with a bit of a prod from GW/BL and even Forge World occasionally, the whole mysteriousness adds to the possibility, but i'm not a believer myself. PM Tadashi about Blood Raven for the whole low down if you want all the details

Just Dave wrote:
AFAIK, Death Guard were originally not any more durable than any other Marine. It was more of an implacable, stalwart nature rather than individual durability.
Deliverance Lost does however state that Perturabo has "unique sub-complexes and protein strands geared towards physical durability, above and beyond that found in the others [Primarchs]", which means that it may be a similar case with his sons/The Iron Warriors...


Well, could be

During the inception of the Sons of Antaeus Chapter, its creators extensively modified the gene-seed in order to create Space Marines of exceptional durability and toughness. How they achieved this is unknown, whether their skeletal structure was enhanced with some artificial substance, or whether a more esoteric procedure was used. Less sympathetic observers point out that the chapter appears every bit as resilient as the Death Guard Traitor Legion.


Reading that again though it just says that they are as resilient after their gene seed was modified.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/01 16:02:50


No pity, no remorse, no shoes 
   
Made in us
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot




Uhlan wrote:
Buttons wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
Manchu wrote:
Just Dave wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong though, but there's no official hints of Minotaurs being ala World Eaters? Rather, it's a rumour created by fans from their apparent similarities...
There is no official connection, just blatant similarities.


The 'how to play cursed founding' chapter approved article gave them a specific 'Beserker' special rule and then went on to say that some chapters fear the Sons of Antaeus have Death Guard like resilience. So a loose and vague connection possibly.

I like the theory that all of the traitor legions had their geneseed used to create new chapters during the 21st founding. Blood Ravens could be 1K Sons, Minotaurs are World Eaters, Sons of Antaeus could be Death Guard descendents.


Color me ignorant, but is this a fan theory or is there more proof than just the few references surrounding the Blood Ravens Chapter?

I was working on a big post regarding the hints that BR may be 1k sons stock and Minotaurs of world eater stock, but accidentally exed out of the page. Anyway, unless I make another post eventually, just know that there are some striking similarities between the World Eaters and Minotaurs.
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/01 16:35:46


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Black Templars!!!!!!!
   
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The Peripheral

Black Templars only because I'm a fanboi. 10,000 years of endless crusade with almost nothing but the blade has to account for something though.

That, or Minotaurs, either way, I wouldn't want to be stuck in between them in a melee.

 
   
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



Dohan Alabama U.S.A.

As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

"Master of "
 
   
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Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Croatia

Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then wolves are best in close combat and black Templars are best in dueling,parhaps.... but I will say it again, Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen- who could top that in melee support?
And what is this about Minotaurs?They are like Jamacian or something (voices- labyrinth of sorrows)?And they are using a lot of heavy devastators support,so it doesn't make them pure meele-ist like BT...

ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan


 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

World Eaters

- I win. The thread did not specify loyalist, and you cannot out hand to hand khornites.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/01 18:41:23


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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Croatia

Orlanth wrote:World Eaters

- I win. The thread did not specify loyalist, and you cannot out hand to hand khornites.

hahahaha you wrote TS first...oooo my GOD

and nobody metioned EC(what is left of them),I'know that they are half gay, but still...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/01 18:46:19


ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

Orlanth wrote:World Eaters

- I win. The thread did not specify loyalist, and you cannot out hand to hand khornites.


They're not a Chapter.

Technically, as they are a Chapter and mainly due to their psychic abilities (but also their wargear), whoever mentioned Grey Knights earlier would take the prize...

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

DatrhMarko wrote:
Bluewulf wrote:As a SW player I will concide best CC to BA. Wolves are hunters first and formost so cc is a tool not a rule hehe. We'll shoot you dead as soon as chop you up. Just as long as it gets the job done.

Then wolves are best in close combat and black Templars are best in dueling,parhaps.... but I will say it again, Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen- who could top that in melee support?
And what is this about Minotaurs?They are like Jamacian or something (voices- labyrinth of sorrows)?And they are using a lot of heavy devastators support,so it doesn't make them pure meele-ist like BT...


Having a wolf buddy doesn't make you a better warrior.

If we're just going with Wulfen, I kindly counter with the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. Those suffering from the Rage get a small portion of Sanguinius' power, their strength and vitality go beyond the average Marines, and they are consumed by rage and a need to spill the blood of their enemies. It sounds about equal to the Wulfen.

However, the Blood Angels have far more dedicated assault units. And they're dang good at their jobs.

(and I'm curious as how you decided wolves were better, assuming you got your conclusion from the quote from the guy saying the BA are better)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/01 18:50:02


DR:90S++G++M++B-I++Pwmhd13#++D+A++++/fWD303R+++T(F)DM+

 Atma01 wrote:

And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Lincolnshire, UK

I wouldn't say any Chapter is better; they all have their strengths and different abilities in the matter and it's a very broad matter.

Typically, the Wolves are much more cunning as they attack, even in close combat; like a Wolf of sorts, but they don't specialise in close combat despite physical/gene-seed advantages. Whereas, typically, the Blood Angels are supposed to be much more brutal and straight-out furious [charge] - the Minotaurs are the same - with the former also having the Death Company. Black Templars are much more numerous and relentlessly fanatical, possibly superior swordsmen also...

It's a many-sided coin, so it's hard to say any one is better.

Enlist as a virtual Ultramarine! Click here for my Chaos Gate (PC) thread.

"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of."
- Roboute Guilliman

"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now."
- Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
 
   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

I can agree with that.

This is a very vague topic, and even debating is tough, especially when the OP set no parameters to judge what constitutes as "better in Hand to Hand"

DR:90S++G++M++B-I++Pwmhd13#++D+A++++/fWD303R+++T(F)DM+

 Atma01 wrote:

And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!

 
   
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Massachusetts

DatrhMarko wrote:but I will say it again, Fenrisian Wolves and Wulfen- who could top that in melee support?


Furioso Dreadnoughts and Death Company.
   
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Croatia

Elector wrote:I can agree with that.

This is a very vague topic, and even debating is tough, especially when the OP set no parameters to judge what constitutes as "better in Hand to Hand"


Well agree,maybe fair question would be,which chapter uses cc the most...

ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."

Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan


 
   
Made in ca
Mutilatin' Mad Dok





CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

Then either Black Templars or Blood Angels.

DR:90S++G++M++B-I++Pwmhd13#++D+A++++/fWD303R+++T(F)DM+

 Atma01 wrote:

And that is why you hear people yelling FOR THE EMPEROR rather than FOR LOGICAL AND QUANTIFIABLE BASED DECISIONS FOR THE BETTERMENT OF THE MAJORITY!

 
   
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Speedy Swiftclaw Biker



Dohan Alabama U.S.A.

as far as best swordsman I would have to go with Darkangels of the 1st company but that just my 2 cent worth

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Hell Hole Washington

World Eaters.!!!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

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North of your position

Elector wrote:Then either Black Templars or Blood Angels.

Blood Angels.
They Know No Pain if they're angry.
sennacherib wrote:World Eaters.!!!
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD

Too bad its a Legion and not a Chapter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bluewulf wrote:as far as best swordsman I would have to go with Darkangels of the 1st company but that just my 2 cent worth

Sanguinary Guard

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 11:46:52


   
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot






Sydney South West

The scions of sanguinius have always been the most badass when it comes to close combat (their vampires for crap's sake!)
IMO...
1st Knights of blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd Angels Ecarmine
4th Blood Angels
5th Space Wolves
6thBlack templars
7th minotaurs
   
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North of your position

blood guard26 wrote:The scions of sanguinius have always been the most badass when it comes to close combat (their vampires for crap's sake!)
IMO...
1st Knights of blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd Angels Ecarmine
4th Blood Angels
5th Space Wolves
6thBlack templars
7th minotaurs

Id go fir
1st Knights of Blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd BA
4th Space Wolves
5th Minotaurs

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/02 12:03:18


   
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blood guard26 wrote:The scions of sanguinius have always been the most badass when it comes to close combat (their vampires for crap's sake!)
IMO...
1st Knights of blood
2nd Flesh Tearers
3rd Angels Ecarmine
4th Blood Angels
5th Space Wolves
6thBlack templars
7th minotaurs

Don't know too much about the Angels Encarmine, but this list is pretty good. Probably would place the Space Sharks on there above the Minotaurs since IIRC IA 9 or 10 mentioned how the Space Sharks scared everyone as soon as they showed up until they stated that they were against the Astral Claws.
   
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TheCaptain wrote:
iGuy91 wrote:I found myself with a most peculiar thought earlier today. Of the Space Marine Chapters, which is the best in hand to hand combat?

When i think of CC and Space Marines, 3 Chapters specifically come to mind, Black Templars, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. Now, disregarding the table top stats of the models themselves, fluffwise which do you think is the strongest or most skilled when it comes to the blade? If you feel another is worthy of the title, write it in and explain why!
Now...GO!


All these other answers are folly. It's obviously the sons of Ultramar, The ULTRAMARINES




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Oh god the stories. There are few I can tell here but all of them involve gruesome ridiculous close combat events. One of my favorites is the company that started taking ork choppas as their spoils. Needless to say, the inquisitor was incredibly confused when he found out one of them replaced his hands with that of a dead ork meganob that wouldn't let go of his weapon.



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