What will be the Tyranids Wave Serpent/Buff Commander/Heldrake? What isn't the internet seeing?

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**majendie**

StarHunter25 wrote:
It seems people were misunderstanding my point from earlier.

Compare the size of a large blast to an oval base. The oval base is nearly twice the size of the large blast. So unless you are attacking a small unit condensed to the point where the entire thing will fit under the blast, you WILL mishap. Every time. Unless the mawloc has some 'I dont mishap when I arrive within 1" of an enemy model" rule. This is mostly because of how this derpy "ability" interracts with unit cohesion.

I'll try to take a picture to better show my point. Easiest way is to setup 10 models on 28mm bases in a 1' by 1' piece of area terrain. then, scatter a large blast. remove models under the blast, then try to put down an oval base that isnt within 1" of one of the remaining bases.
Can't do it? Grat's, you mishapped. At best you go back into ongoing reserve so you can hopefully get this result again. Otherwise you lose the model. Either to it being killed outright because it couldn't move the comparatively minuscule grots/guardsmen/kroot out of the way, or because your opponent puts him in the open to get shot to pieces. Either way, from what I can tell, the mawloc is basically a purchasable S6 AP2 Heavy 2, One use weapon, with a special rule that lets you re-use it on a random dice roll and ignore cover.

And to quote Reecius.. "Forging a Narrative!!"

Mawloc can be placed within 1" of a model so long as it's not actually in base contact, which makes this whole scenario very different. Oval base is 120x90mm oval (off the top of my head), which works out to 13.5 square inches. Large blast is 4" across, which works out to 12.5 square inches. So it's bigger but nowhere near twice as big. So long as you don't try and place it under something you're going to have difficulty killing (T4+, 2+, invuls etc.) you won't have any problem. Under a squad of Guardians for example, and you're instant deathing everything under it on a 2+ rerollable. Then you get to eat whatever they were guarding.

I think the best scenario with him definitely involves a Lictor of some sort, so that you can be precise with it.

**Lobokai**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Someone at some point is going to gut a pskyer Death Star by making it roll a -7 pinning check and cast at -6 Ld.

Shadow in the Warp Doesn't stack though. It's one or more models (Unlike the Chaos Fiends who does indeed stack! )

Great. I wasn't stacking. -3 Shadows, -2 Horror, d3 from "its after me" (which I averaged)... That's 7., also possible to have a -6 to psychic tests too.

**milo**

zephoid wrote:

FMC spam is a joke. groundings tests makes the army fall apart really, really quickly. Without spore pods to drop in and support the advance, you are left with only a few units making combat and not doing enough damage for most armies to care at all. Meanwhile your ground army trudges up the field slowly.

What about FMCs supported by Lictors, Shrikes, Trygons, Mawlocs and Infiltrating Genestealers? Other units (Zoanthopes? Warriors?) could enter via the Trygon's tunnels or via Deepstrike?

Basically, deploy Lictors and Genestealers via Infiltrate. FMC's begin on the table, in cover, in hover mode. First turn, FMCs begin Swooping to get their 5+ jink save and Hard to Hit rule.

Turn 2, Trygons and Mawloc arrive via Burrowing Deepstrike, centered on Lictors to avoid scatter. Shrikes deploy via Deep Strike near Lictors as well.

Turn 3, any remaining units in reserves deploy via Subterranean Assault, already deep within the opponent's side of the table.

I'm not sure it would work.. it does rely on some lucky reserves rolling, although I think there are some ways to modify your chances on those. But it would certainly be entertaining and would waste most of your opponent's shooting in the first turns (since the bulk of most non-Skyfire shots would miss).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JPong wrote:
Its a terrible and easily predicted combo. Then once the lictor is dead, you have 3 large blasts that scatter the full distance for the whole game, if the mawloc survives. Remember, pheremone trail didn't work in fifth, and it hasn't changed at all.

Why do people keep saying "that scatter the full distance"? My codex says "Terror From The Deep: When arriving from DSR, a Mawloc can choose to DS onto a point occupied by another model (friend of foe) - roll for scatter as normal."

Is there something I'm missing?

**Ian Sturrock**

Why do people keep saying that the large oval base won't fit inside the large blast marker?

**Mywik**

milo wrote:
zephoid wrote:

FMC spam is a joke. groundings tests makes the army fall apart really, really quickly. Without spore pods to drop in and support the advance, you are left with only a few units making combat and not doing enough damage for most armies to care at all. Meanwhile your ground army trudges up the field slowly.

What about FMCs supported by Lictors, Shrikes, Trygons, Mawlocs and Infiltrating Genestealers? Other units (Zoanthopes? Warriors?) could enter via the Trygon's tunnels or via Deepstrike?

Basically, deploy Lictors and Genestealers via Infiltrate. FMC's begin on the table, in cover, in hover mode. First turn, FMCs begin Swooping to get their 5+ jink save and Hard to Hit rule.

Turn 2, Trygons and Mawloc arrive via Burrowing Deepstrike, centered on Lictors to avoid scatter. Shrikes deploy via Deep Strike near Lictors as well.

Turn 3, any remaining units in reserves deploy via Subterranean Assault, already deep within the opponent's side of the table.

I'm not sure it would work.. it does rely on some lucky reserves rolling, although I think there are some ways to modify your chances on those. But it would certainly be entertaining and would waste most of your opponent's shooting in the first turns (since the bulk of most non-Skyfire shots would miss).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JPong wrote:
Its a terrible and easily predicted combo. Then once the lictor is dead, you have 3 large blasts that scatter the full distance for the whole game, if the mawloc survives. Remember, pheremone trail didn't work in fifth, and it hasn't changed at all.

Why do people keep saying "that scatter the full distance"? My codex says "Terror From The Deep: When arriving from DSR, a Mawloc can choose to DS onto a point occupied by another model (friend of foe) - roll for scatter as normal."

Is there something I'm missing?

I think he meant that normally when the blast marker comes from a weapon you subtract the BS of the firing model. In the case of the mawloc deepstriking you scatter the full distance rolled (when theres no hit! symbol rolled) because it is no shot but the mawloc deep striking.

**milo**

Mywik wrote:
milo wrote:

JPong wrote:
Its a terrible and easily predicted combo. Then once the lictor is dead, you have 3 large blasts that scatter the full distance for the whole game, if the mawloc survives. Remember, pheremone trail didn't work in fifth, and it hasn't changed at all.

Why do people keep saying "that scatter the full distance"? My codex says "Terror From The Deep: When arriving from DSR, a Mawloc can choose to DS onto a point occupied by another model (friend of foe) - roll for scatter as normal."

Is there something I'm missing?

I think he meant that normally when the blast marker comes from a weapon you subtract the BS of the firing model. In the case of the mawloc deepstriking you scatter the full distance rolled (when theres no hit! symbol rolled) because it is no shot but the mawloc deep striking.

Ah, okay, that does make some sense. Thanks for clarifying.

Anyone care to calculate the chances of centering the template on a model and either hitting or scattering little enough to still hit the model you aimed for?

**Mr Morden**

StarHunter25 wrote:
It seems people were misunderstanding my point from earlier.

Compare the size of a large blast to an oval base. The oval base is nearly twice the size of the large blast. So unless you are attacking a small unit condensed to the point where the entire thing will fit under the blast, you WILL mishap. Every time. Unless the mawloc has some 'I dont mishap when I arrive within 1" of an enemy model" rule. This is mostly because of how this derpy "ability" interracts with unit cohesion.

I'll try to take a picture to better show my point. Easiest way is to setup 10 models on 28mm bases in a 1' by 1' piece of area terrain. then, scatter a large blast. remove models under the blast, then try to put down an oval base that isnt within 1" of one of the remaining bases.
Can't do it? Grat's, you mishapped. At best you go back into ongoing reserve so you can hopefully get this result again. Otherwise you lose the model. Either to it being killed outright because it couldn't move the comparatively minuscule grots/guardsmen/kroot out of the way, or because your opponent puts him in the open to get shot to pieces. Either way, from what I can tell, the mawloc is basically a purchasable S6 AP2 Heavy 2, One use weapon, with a special rule that lets you re-use it on a random dice roll and ignore cover.

And to quote Reecius.. "Forging a Narrative!!"

I did post earlier :

You only need to avoid actually touching enemy models - you can place the Mawloc within 1" of one

Also you roll to kill them twice not once

Also I thought the base did fit in side the template

**SHUPPET**

I think he's confusing small blast with large blast. Meaning he probably doesn't have much experience, it's not a complex rule. I'm going to go ahead and ignore that guy's strategic opinion.

The blast is larger than the base slightly. The further you scatter the more likely it is you will be able to place.

The wording is real iffy on the ruling for me. By "place the Mawloc there" is it referring to where the blast was centred on the deep strike scatter, or the hit radius of the large blast plate which was the more recent thing mentioned? Because if its referring to the blast itself, that gives you room to play the model anywhere that it would be affected by the pie plate, which is a lot more room. But I guess it's probably the same exact centred spot of the scatter and the blast place that you also place the model. Does that mean place the Mawloc so the centre of its base is right where the scatter lands? Or does it just have to be touching the spot with any part of its base? Can I get some rules clarifcations?

**L0rdF1end**

What will be the Tyranids Wave Serpent/Buff Commander/Heldrake? What isn't the internet seeing?

There isn't, End of, Tyranids got shafted with this update.
There is so many glaring issues I won't even start listing them.
It truly isn't possible to compete at top tier.

Don't get me wrong, I like where the book is heading and it does have some nice changes but I do feel this is an incomplete work. With some more time and love this could actually be a very good dex.
Shame they had to rush it out, personally I would have rather waited a few more months for them to finish the dex properly.

**SHUPPET**

Meh if you only care about the competitive side of the game, this dex is great.

If you care about anything else however, this is the biggest pile of gak released yet.

Less units than the last codex, shoe-horned playstyles, very little original fluff, less competitive options for the mandatory FOC slots than before, and another dex full of models we can't play with.
We did definitely get stronger though.

The only horde aspect Tyranids currently have is the horde of useless piece of crap units crammed into the book.

**ZebioLizard2**

Lobukia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Someone at some point is going to gut a pskyer Death Star by making it roll a -7 pinning check and cast at -6 Ld.

Shadow in the Warp Doesn't stack though. It's one or more models (Unlike the Chaos Fiends who does indeed stack! )

Great. I wasn't stacking. -3 Shadows, -2 Horror, d3 from "its after me" (which I averaged)... That's 7., also possible to have a -6 to psychic tests too.

Ah, that's neat then.

**Lobokai**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Someone at some point is going to gut a pskyer Death Star by making it roll a -7 pinning check and cast at -6 Ld.

Shadow in the Warp Doesn't stack though. It's one or more models (Unlike the Chaos Fiends who does indeed stack! )

Great. I wasn't stacking. -3 Shadows, -2 Horror, d3 from "its after me" (which I averaged)... That's 7., also possible to have a -6 to psychic tests too.

Ah, that's neat then.

Its neat, but I just haven't figured out a solid delivery system for it and a way to exploit its crippling effects. But I'm confident someone will.

**SHUPPET**

Lobukia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Someone at some point is going to gut a pskyer Death Star by making it roll a -7 pinning check and cast at -6 Ld.

Shadow in the Warp Doesn't stack though. It's one or more models (Unlike the Chaos Fiends who does indeed stack! )

Great. I wasn't stacking. -3 Shadows, -2 Horror, d3 from "its after me" (which I averaged)... That's 7., also possible to have a -6 to psychic tests too.

Ah, that's neat then.

Its neat, but I just haven't figured out a solid delivery system for it and a way to exploit its crippling effects. But I'm confident someone will.

Well assuming you have Deathleaper as 1 HQ and Flyrant as the other, I guess you can do it fairly easily if you roll the Horror. If its something you are setting out to do, the only real delivery method would be outflank a Broodlord and flap the Flyrant into SitW range, or Deep Strike a Trygon Prime. I don't know if this is as good as you think it is though.

**Aleph-Sama**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Someone at some point is going to gut a pskyer Death Star by making it roll a -7 pinning check and cast at -6 Ld.

Shadow in the Warp Doesn't stack though. It's one or more models (Unlike the Chaos Fiends who does indeed stack! )

Great. I wasn't stacking. -3 Shadows, -2 Horror, d3 from "its after me" (which I averaged)... That's 7., also possible to have a -6 to psychic tests too.

Ah, that's neat then.

It'll wreck Seerstar real quick. One SitW will drop Warlocks to leadership 5... 5! That's passing less than a third of psychic tests!!!