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I'm worried about 450 points for 3 carnifexes with 36 twin-linked S6 shots that have fnp and 3+ cover saves.

One might laugh and say that this or that will kill them, but they can move around to put the least-wounded ones forward, wave serpents need 3+ to wound them with their shields, they get that cover save vs wraithcannons and grav guns, they're nasty to assault (overwatch, ouch. On top of being an MC), just....ouch.

Genestealers can infiltrate, go to ground for good cover if anyone shoots them, and be synapsed into fearlessness while casting the horror to pin down units like pathfinders with ease.

 Spellbound wrote:
I'm worried about 450 points for 3 carnifexes with 36 twin-linked S6 shots that have fnp and 3+ cover saves.

One might laugh and say that this or that will kill them, but they can move around to put the least-wounded ones forward, wave serpents need 3+ to wound them with their shields, they get that cover save vs wraithcannons and grav guns, they're nasty to assault (overwatch, ouch. On top of being an MC), just....ouch.

Genestealers can infiltrate, go to ground for good cover if anyone shoots them, and be synapsed into fearlessness while casting the horror to pin down units like pathfinders with ease.

First off, they only have FNP with a psyker around to give it to them, and 3+ cover only if they're already in cover AND with a venomthrope around. When you factor in the other two (or three) units/models required to pull off this combo, you're looking at well more than 450 points.

You don't get cover saves against Markerlight hits, so you hit the Venomthropes with Markerlights, strip their cover save, then kill them with even Fire Warriors.


Then you watch as the Tyranid player dies a little on the inside.

 streamdragon wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
I'm worried about 450 points for 3 carnifexes with 36 twin-linked S6 shots that have fnp and 3+ cover saves.

One might laugh and say that this or that will kill them, but they can move around to put the least-wounded ones forward, wave serpents need 3+ to wound them with their shields, they get that cover save vs wraithcannons and grav guns, they're nasty to assault (overwatch, ouch. On top of being an MC), just....ouch.

Genestealers can infiltrate, go to ground for good cover if anyone shoots them, and be synapsed into fearlessness while casting the horror to pin down units like pathfinders with ease.

First off, they only have FNP with a psyker around to give it to them, and 3+ cover only if they're already in cover AND with a venomthrope around. When you factor in the other two (or three) units/models required to pull off this combo, you're looking at well more than 450 points.

You don't get cover saves against Markerlight hits, so you hit the Venomthropes with Markerlights, strip their cover save, then kill them with even Fire Warriors.


Then you watch as the Tyranid player dies a little on the inside.

Even CSM has noise marine blastmasters that'll instant kill the venomthrope without markerlights, or the elder wavespam that doesn't care how many cover saves you get, not to mention will just kill your synapse and cause them to beat themselves to death.

Brutal Viking wrote:
If I had to pick a unit I'd say OOE would be it. WS3 isn't great and 220 points is huge but possibly 15 attacks on the charge and up to 9 every turn after at S11 Ap2 is pretty terrifying plus the 5+ FNP possibility and 4+ regeneration makes for a truely impressive creature of destruction.

That being said there's no real stand out must take units but there are lots of combos that might work between units very well

Except that he is in the HQ slot and taking him means losing a Synapse option, which is critical for this dex. I love Deathleaper and think he got better in this book, except the move to HQ just kills any opportunity to field him

Yes, HQs not have Synapse is just dumb design.

What do people think about Deathleaper?

He seems to be quite hard to shoot - Stealth and only snap shots - although T4 is a bit worrying.....

I do like the idea of the opponents Warlord being -D3 LD (even if he is not on the board?) and then if a Psyker if in synapse range another -3

Okay, I spent some time mulling this question over and I think the best thing this codex has to offer is...

The Venomthrope.

This guy is absolute the gem of the codex and that isn't saying much. The ability to screen the entire army in throw away gaunts, granting a 5+ cover, then shrouded for a 3+ cover makes him the auto-take in my book. I know for a fact that I am going to be using almost nothing but Venomthropes for my elites purely because I can't see running this army any other way. I will field a gaunt shield, then MCs, behind the MCs to block LOS I will put the Venomthropes. Templates will have a field day with it but it is the best plan I can see.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, I spent some time mulling this question over and I think the best thing this codex has to offer is...

The Venomthrope.

This guy is absolute the gem of the codex and that isn't saying much. The ability to screen the entire army in throw away gaunts, granting a 5+ cover, then shrouded for a 3+ cover makes him the auto-take in my book. I know for a fact that I am going to be using almost nothing but Venomthropes for my elites purely because I can't see running this army any other way. I will field a gaunt shield, then MCs, behind the MCs to block LOS I will put the Venomthropes. Templates will have a field day with it but it is the best plan I can see.

Mawlocs are even better imho, simply because mishapping is pretty much a joke these days. If anything, I almost want to get that mishap so I can have a 50% chance to do a Terror from the Deep attack the next turn as well.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, I spent some time mulling this question over and I think the best thing this codex has to offer is...

The Venomthrope.

This guy is absolute the gem of the codex and that isn't saying much. The ability to screen the entire army in throw away gaunts, granting a 5+ cover, then shrouded for a 3+ cover makes him the auto-take in my book. I know for a fact that I am going to be using almost nothing but Venomthropes for my elites purely because I can't see running this army any other way. I will field a gaunt shield, then MCs, behind the MCs to block LOS I will put the Venomthropes. Templates will have a field day with it but it is the best plan I can see.

Mawlocs are even better imho, simply because mishapping is pretty much a joke these days. If anything, I almost want to get that mishap so I can have a 50% chance to do a Terror from the Deep attack the next turn as well.

My problem is that a S6 Ap2 Large Blast that always scatters the full amount...I played Mawlocs with the old codex and their potential is great, but in reality they are just to random. Plus what do they kill with that large blast? Terminators that no one play anymore? It isn't great for vehicle killing. They just fill a role that isn't all that needed in the nid codex.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, I spent some time mulling this question over and I think the best thing this codex has to offer is...

The Venomthrope.

This guy is absolute the gem of the codex and that isn't saying much. The ability to screen the entire army in throw away gaunts, granting a 5+ cover, then shrouded for a 3+ cover makes him the auto-take in my book. I know for a fact that I am going to be using almost nothing but Venomthropes for my elites purely because I can't see running this army any other way. I will field a gaunt shield, then MCs, behind the MCs to block LOS I will put the Venomthropes. Templates will have a field day with it but it is the best plan I can see.

Mawlocs are even better imho, simply because mishaping is pretty much a joke these days. If anything, I almost want to get that mishap so I can have a 50% chance to do a Terror from the Deep attack the next turn as well.

My problem is that a S6 Ap2 Large Blast that always scatters the full amount...I played Mawlocs with the old codex and their potential is great, but in reality they are just to random. Plus what do they kill with that large blast? Terminators that no one play anymore? It isn't great for vehicle killing. They just fill a role that isn't all that needed in the nid codex.

People want to run them with lictors, making the most telegraphed and easily countered combos ever.

JPong wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, I spent some time mulling this question over and I think the best thing this codex has to offer is...

The Venomthrope.

This guy is absolute the gem of the codex and that isn't saying much. The ability to screen the entire army in throw away gaunts, granting a 5+ cover, then shrouded for a 3+ cover makes him the auto-take in my book. I know for a fact that I am going to be using almost nothing but Venomthropes for my elites purely because I can't see running this army any other way. I will field a gaunt shield, then MCs, behind the MCs to block LOS I will put the Venomthropes. Templates will have a field day with it but it is the best plan I can see.

Mawlocs are even better imho, simply because mishaping is pretty much a joke these days. If anything, I almost want to get that mishap so I can have a 50% chance to do a Terror from the Deep attack the next turn as well.

My problem is that a S6 Ap2 Large Blast that always scatters the full amount...I played Mawlocs with the old codex and their potential is great, but in reality they are just to random. Plus what do they kill with that large blast? Terminators that no one play anymore? It isn't great for vehicle killing. They just fill a role that isn't all that needed in the nid codex.

People want to run them with lictors, making the most telegraphed and easily countered combos ever.

Right? Like I am going to waste an elite slot on Lictors just to make sure my Mawlocs, which are taking up an infinitely valuable heavy slot, just to get off the every other turn S6 AP2 pie plate.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

JPong wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
Okay, I spent some time mulling this question over and I think the best thing this codex has to offer is...

The Venomthrope.

This guy is absolute the gem of the codex and that isn't saying much. The ability to screen the entire army in throw away gaunts, granting a 5+ cover, then shrouded for a 3+ cover makes him the auto-take in my book. I know for a fact that I am going to be using almost nothing but Venomthropes for my elites purely because I can't see running this army any other way. I will field a gaunt shield, then MCs, behind the MCs to block LOS I will put the Venomthropes. Templates will have a field day with it but it is the best plan I can see.

Mawlocs are even better imho, simply because mishaping is pretty much a joke these days. If anything, I almost want to get that mishap so I can have a 50% chance to do a Terror from the Deep attack the next turn as well.

My problem is that a S6 Ap2 Large Blast that always scatters the full amount...I played Mawlocs with the old codex and their potential is great, but in reality they are just to random. Plus what do they kill with that large blast? Terminators that no one play anymore? It isn't great for vehicle killing. They just fill a role that isn't all that needed in the nid codex.

People want to run them with lictors, making the most telegraphed and easily countered combos ever.

Right? Like I am going to waste an elite slot on Lictors just to make sure my Mawlocs, which are taking up an infinitely valuable heavy slot, just to get off the every other turn S6 AP2 pie plate.

Not to mention the Lictor has to spend a turn on the table, not die and then still be within 6" of the target for it to work. People who are promoting this strategy are going to be very disappointed...

However, I tend to have Seer Jetbike woes, so I can see triple Mawlocs playing havoc on those . Really, they're wounding nearly everything on a 2+ and ignoring cover, so basically if they hit then they're going to kill whatever pesky enemy unit they want to.

And then you kill the t6 w6 3+ mawloc and hope it didn't kill 140 pts worth of stuff. I tried using one in 5th and it never lasted, that only got worse with 6th.

Honestly thats a pretty cheap mc for what it does imo

140pts for 3 s6ap2 large blasts isn't that great. Especially since it can't start until turn 2 (with luck).

 Niiai wrote:
The broken lists will consist of:

2 Flyrants, same as before.

A mix of 3 harpies and/or crones

All of the flyers starting on the board close to some venomtropes, preferably hidden in the terain.

3 Mawlocks.

Whatever troops and synapse you can scrape together. Perhaps outflanking 5 man squads of genestealers going to ground on objectives.

Other units we will see that we sometimes saw during 5th edition codex:

Zoantropes (who got better (1 exstra power) and cheaper) Dakka carnifeses. Perhaps also carnifexes with adrenaline glads in an MSU like list.

This looks like it will work. I have played the 3 TL Venom Cannon Harpies and they are the bomb. They get a nice vectored strike on their way to killing big stuff same turn. Also, you ground me, I now fire my Str 9 AP 2 blast and then bounce you in CC. The regen saved me every time. I think the Tervigon as a synapse in a troop roll is also nice. With all the stuff you can buy it will take a lot of shooting to clear the objectives. I think the Warp Blast played right will dominate. Lance Str 10, that just seems huge.

Now, as to OP, I think GW will never make or be able to make a balanced game. There are just too many rules and too many rules that change rules to design such a thing. Given that, I think they have done a heck of a job with this dex. The models are nasty and twisted, love'em. The fact that I can start the game with all my big flyers on the table makes Conair look not so hot.

So I have played them already and I had a blast. I have to try OOE and a zoanies now.

I'm surprised that the Tyrannofex hasn't been mentioned yet... With Venomthrope cover he can give an Eldar army fits. Against Tau Missilesides and missile suits, he's the deadliest thing we have. The only problem I can foresee will be Riptides. Even then, its gun in 3-shot mode will only average one wound per turn with ignoring cover. Markerlights increase this of course, but those should be the number one target with Biovores or Mawlocs and the Tyranno itself. At 2k below, staples will be:
2 Flyrants
Venomthropes
30 gants/Tervigon
Crones

and then Heavy Support... GWs inability to balance the FOC is infuriating. think 2 Tyrannofex will be gold, and then either a Mawloc or 3 Biovores.

EXAMPLE: 1999+1

Flyrant, Devourers, (Warlord)
Flyrant, Devourers, (Electroshock grubs)
Venomthrope
Bastion
30 gants
30 gants
Tervigon
Tervigon
Crone
Crone
Tyrannofex
Tyrannofex
3 Biovores

Carnifexes are making a big comeback I think. With D3 str9 hits on the charge, you will do some damage. Crushing Claws with str 10 armourbane. Give them a heavy venom cannon or Devourers you will kill some things on your way up

If there is a list to make waves, it's either going to involve either Venomthropes or Mawlocs.

Regardless, doesn't change the fact that this codex limits us strategically due to no pods, no transports what so ever, a predefined troop choice, and a really obvious choice for best HQ unit (although some the others are playable and have uses).

 jifel wrote:
I'm surprised that the Tyrannofex hasn't been mentioned yet... With Venomthrope cover he can give an Eldar army fits. Against Tau Missilesides and missile suits, he's the deadliest thing we have. The only problem I can foresee will be Riptides. Even then, its gun in 3-shot mode will only average one wound per turn with ignoring cover. Markerlights increase this of course, but those should be the number one target with Biovores or Mawlocs and the Tyranno itself. At 2k below, staples will be:
2 Flyrants
Venomthropes
30 gants/Tervigon
Crones

and then Heavy Support... GWs inability to balance the FOC is infuriating. think 2 Tyrannofex will be gold, and then either a Mawloc or 3 Biovores.

EXAMPLE: 1999+1

Flyrant, Devourers, (Warlord)
Flyrant, Devourers, (Electroshock grubs)
Venomthrope
Bastion
30 gants
30 gants
Tervigon
Tervigon
Crone
Crone
Tyrannofex
Tyrannofex
3 Biovores

Tyrannofex's problem is the same as it always has been. BS3 makes the rupture cannon a pass, his best use is to be decked out in flamers burning infantry left and right and assault vehicles. The rupture cannon is just so focused and not that good at what it does that it is a waste of points to relegate the beast to doing nothing but shooting twice a turn.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I'm surprised that the Tyrannofex hasn't been mentioned yet... With Venomthrope cover he can give an Eldar army fits. Against Tau Missilesides and missile suits, he's the deadliest thing we have. The only problem I can foresee will be Riptides. Even then, its gun in 3-shot mode will only average one wound per turn with ignoring cover. Markerlights increase this of course, but those should be the number one target with Biovores or Mawlocs and the Tyranno itself. At 2k below, staples will be:
2 Flyrants
Venomthropes
30 gants/Tervigon
Crones

and then Heavy Support... GWs inability to balance the FOC is infuriating. think 2 Tyrannofex will be gold, and then either a Mawloc or 3 Biovores.

EXAMPLE: 1999+1

Flyrant, Devourers, (Warlord)
Flyrant, Devourers, (Electroshock grubs)
Venomthrope
Bastion
30 gants
30 gants
Tervigon
Tervigon
Crone
Crone
Tyrannofex
Tyrannofex
3 Biovores

Tyrannofex's problem is the same as it always has been. BS3 makes the rupture cannon a pass, his best use is to be decked out in flamers burning infantry left and right and assault vehicles. The rupture cannon is just so focused and not that good at what it does that it is a waste of points to relegate the beast to doing nothing but shooting twice a turn.

If that's how you are using your Tyrannofex, it is indeed a waste of points - you do not take him to sit him at the back of the army and fire his gun off every turn. Taking him to use two nice templates on 1 squad once his slow ass makes it into range, one of the templates which is single use per game, is also wasting the points. Find the middleground, Tyranno needs the rupture cannon, its the only thing that makes him worthwhile. You waltz up the board at the front of your army popping off 2x S10 shots per turn with 48" range, while giving a large unit cover or blocking LoS to something smaller, with his T6 W6 stats and +2 save. The rupture cannon is far from focused, don't get fooled by the 48" range like the guy I'm quoting has been, it has no minimum range and it's not a Heavy artillery. Pop open a Rhino with a rupture shot, let loose the template, assault the remainder. Don't write him off so easily like this guy has, use T-Fex for all his roles at once, in the right list he can be worth his points even at the old codex's costing. He takes skill to play but is a great unit. GLHF.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Carnifexes are making a big comeback I think. With D3 str9 hits on the charge, you will do some damage. Crushing Claws with str 10 armourbane. Give them a heavy venom cannon or Devourers you will kill some things on your way up

I agree with this. I actually think the HVC isn't a good choice on them, but taking devourers is going to be pretty good. That's what, 36 twin linked Str6 shots from one brood?

At BS3 that's 27 hits.
Against marines that's wounding on 2+, so 22.5 wounds before saves.
Even after power armour 3+ save you deal 7.5 wounds average to a marine squad.

Imagine if you got close enough to some fire warriors or something. And then if you get them into CC they'll do their job anyway. They're also potentially going to provide the most reliable source of synapse by taking a Tyranid Prime with them. Maybe walk up a Trygon Prime as well and then they've got some difficult decisions to make.

Why the hate for HVC's? I mean devourers are likely better most the time, but HVC's are nice. You can take a melee weapon with them too. I am from a time when Carnifexe's have always sucked though, so I haven't had much experience with them, but what is so bad about the HVC?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 jifel wrote:
I'm surprised that the Tyrannofex hasn't been mentioned yet... With Venomthrope cover he can give an Eldar army fits. Against Tau Missilesides and missile suits, he's the deadliest thing we have. The only problem I can foresee will be Riptides. Even then, its gun in 3-shot mode will only average one wound per turn with ignoring cover. Markerlights increase this of course, but those should be the number one target with Biovores or Mawlocs and the Tyranno itself. At 2k below, staples will be:
2 Flyrants
Venomthropes
30 gants/Tervigon
Crones

and then Heavy Support... GWs inability to balance the FOC is infuriating. think 2 Tyrannofex will be gold, and then either a Mawloc or 3 Biovores.

EXAMPLE: 1999+1

Flyrant, Devourers, (Warlord)
Flyrant, Devourers, (Electroshock grubs)
Venomthrope
Bastion
30 gants
30 gants
Tervigon
Tervigon
Crone
Crone
Tyrannofex
Tyrannofex
3 Biovores

Tyrannofex's problem is the same as it always has been. BS3 makes the rupture cannon a pass, his best use is to be decked out in flamers burning infantry left and right and assault vehicles. The rupture cannon is just so focused and not that good at what it does that it is a waste of points to relegate the beast to doing nothing but shooting twice a turn.

If that's how you are using your Tyrannofex, it is indeed a waste of points - you do not take him to sit him at the back of the army and fire his gun off every turn. Taking him to use two nice templates on 1 squad once his slow ass makes it into range, one of the templates which is single use per game, is also wasting the points. Find the middleground, Tyranno needs the rupture cannon, its the only thing that makes him worthwhile. You waltz up the board at the front of your army popping off 2x S10 shots per turn with 48" range, while giving a large unit cover or blocking LoS to something smaller, with his T6 W6 stats and +2 save. The rupture cannon is far from focused, don't get fooled by the 48" range like the guy I'm quoting has been, it has no minimum range and it's not a Heavy artillery. Pop open a Rhino with a rupture shot, let loose the template, assault the remainder. Don't write him off so easily like this guy has, use T-Fex for all his roles at once, in the right list he can be worth his points even at the old codex's costing. He takes skill to play but is a great unit. GLHF.

You know, I disagree with what you say about using a Tyrannofex for just the templates.

Those templates to many armies are devastating. I ran it last edition once as a joke, and I completely decimated a Tau army with it accidentally because he didn't treat it as enough of a threat. Caught us both by surprise. The template weapons are enough of a threat that your enemy is going to want to kill it before it gets close, so it may be the case that every game it dies before it does anything, but at T6 W6 2+ it's our toughest MC. The enemy will be firing at something, and if you can make it the Tyrannofex I think you're doing well. And if it doesn't go for it? Run up the board and template him.

When using the templates instead of the rupture cannon, you can run on turn 1, so he's going to be moving up the field more quickly. So 7-12" turn one, then turn two makes it 13-18" after second movement phase. The torrent weapon has the narrow end 12" away, and then you have the length of the template... you can reasonably hope to start hitting stuff turn 2.

The rupture cannon is indeed nice, but I just feel like at BS3 it's potentially easily ignored, and for the extra points I'm not sure. I guess if you face a lot of vehicles though it's a good option.

Agreed on the Templatefex, I'd run it with the old Dex all the time - now that it's 65pts cheaper for the exact same loadout it's even more of a no-brainer to me... and I can bring along a second Templatefex guilt-free!

 SHUPPET wrote:
Why the hate for HVC's? I mean devourers are likely better most the time, but HVC's are nice. You can take a melee weapon with them too. I am from a time when Carnifexe's have always sucked though, so I haven't had much experience with them, but what is so bad about the HVC?

They're just a worse option.

Against infantry it's a single AP4 shot; you're either not removing their save or you're hitting cheap models with an incredibly expensive S9 shot on a big MC. By shooting it you're actually just preventing it from running up the board that turn.
12 TL S6 shots can absolutely tear infantry apart, and it still wounds on a 2+ (the S9 is superfluous).

Against vehicles it's a single S9 shot. It will take you two turns to kill a 30pt rhino. Chances are you'll hit and then get one glance/pen.
12 TL S6 shots, which are by no means anti-vehicle, even against AV12 will give you 1.3333 glances.

The rupture cannon is a bit overpriced, so yes, base is better. The only upgrades I can see worth giving is adrenal gland so he can run up and later assault. Even then, I think this book will be "boys over toys" in that only the HQs should have upgrades. Maybe Devourers on Carnis but most of our units look best bare.

Spamming fexes seems to be a viable strat. The reduction in cost makes them much easier to just throw quantity out and hope some make it. My fear is that the ST nerf has made them so bad that even if they make combat they wont be able to do enough.

FMC spam is a joke. groundings tests makes the army fall apart really, really quickly. Without spore pods to drop in and support the advance, you are left with only a few units making combat and not doing enough damage for most armies to care at all. Meanwhile your ground army trudges up the field slowly.

 Mr Morden wrote:
What do people think about Deathleaper?

He seems to be quite hard to shoot - Stealth and only snap shots - although T4 is a bit worrying.....

I do like the idea of the opponents Warlord being -D3 LD (even if he is not on the board?) and then if a Psyker if in synapse range another -3

All that negative leadership would go really well with telepathy, which is what I thought nids would end up getting instead of biomancy. bummer.

 Eldarain wrote:
So what will be making people eat their words in the coming weeks/months?

Nothing. If one or two units turn out to be competitive it still doesn't make it a good codex.