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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[Ah, good. The “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line. Meaningless and utterly missing the point since… forever.

QFT!

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, the rule could be better, but you need to remember there are a gakton of options, and the release method means that you cannot go back and fix things that turn out too good/bad when compared to newer releases.

Weak choice? they were probably too careful with it.
OP choice? they probably missed an interaction or underestimated something.
Should it happen? no. DOES it happen? yes, to everyone.
Its not the rulemaker's fault they are forced into a silly "codex" routine rather then make and release new things individually. sure, things will get missed, things will get priced wrong and things will be messy.
Because they cant be fixed.

Finecast complains? that pretty much only hold for the old models, the newer casts (even with old models) are pretty flawless as I see. not a single bubble in my commander, not bending of pieces, no nothing.
Misfitting part? also NEVER had that issue, nor ever seen somebody else with it, only hear of it on the net, but never IRL. odd.
Paint names? well, its not like they just change names, they changed everything ABOUT the paint. how they work, what paints are out there, what TYPES are out there. its a whole new series, and I for one LOVE it.

No claims for perfection, nor will I defend the parts of the rules who ARE fethed up (IA upgrade on the riptide is worth way more then 5 points x_x) but overall-they are decent.
If you want a real bad company, look at those with customers who never receive their products, or get damaged ones that are not replaced, not the ones who do a wish-washy work at writing.
Writing is hard, look at "proposed rules" to see how hard it is, waves of people who give outright broken units and fail to see it, or asking "how to improve unit X", when it never needs a buff.
And these people work WITHIN a system, making the whole system from the get-go is so much harder.

The problem is that they often don't seem to notice that the rules in a codex are screwed up until AFTER they release it. That is what gets me. AND they keep making the same mistakes over and over again with each incarnation of the rules and the codecies. THAT is the part that really bothers me. Make a new army and find out you screwed the pooch is one thing. Revise an army for the 5th time and still screw the pooch and you are a bunch of idiots. If the company charges me $80 for a rulebook for their game to encourage me to buy their minis then that book better tno be full of wish-washy work at writing. Other companies found indemnic problems with their ruleset so rewrote it all better (Battlefront comes to mind on this going from 1st to 2nd editon of FoW). They then, after some time of issues being complained about by their player base released a 3rd editon of the game to *fix* those areas that there players always complained about without completely changing aspects of the game that people were fine with. The end result: A more solid ruleset that has gotten better through its different editions. GW has had some good writers on their staff, and almost every one of them have left GW to go on to other companies and write some exceptional rulesets that blow 40k and WFB out of the water completely.

Yes writing is hard. It is even harder if you don't test it. Often GW's new units come across like the web codecies that people make up that you mention the units are outright broken and they can't even notice. The problem is I am not paying Joe Gamer to try out his broken rules/units, but I am paying a ton of money to GW to do so. That is the big difference and why it makes people angry. Besides, if one cannot write good unit and game rules then one should probably not be a rules writer in the first place, eh?

I am with you, though, on the finecast thing. I have had a single model with a bent sword, that one heated in warm water was easily dealt with. I didn't have much finecast initially, but bough a ton of supporting units in finecast for my Dark Eldar and have had zero issues with any of the minis. The details are all crisp. There are no holes in anything. There are no deformed pieces. So the continued complaints from people about how horrible finecast is confuse me a bit. Yes there was definitely a problem initially and some of those pieces were crap and I saw those with my own eyes. I just waited to buy any to give them time to sort out the issues first.

Skriker

 Peregrine wrote:


Options are not an excuse. MTG has way more options than 40k, and doesn't suffer from the same problems. GW only has problems with their game because they don't care enough to invest the effort required to produce a high-quality game.

Did you REALLY just note as MTG as an example of good balance?!

A game that ran, simultaniusly, multiple cards that are exactly the same except a single numerical change or optional change (as in one can be targeting X, the otehr can target X or Y as you wish) that makes one strickly superior in every and all situations? and they did it MULTIPLE times

MTG is the lousiest balance ever, where price and power are quite literally, and they even admit they are intentionally linked.
A common card and a rare card from the very same edition can fall under the "like X, but better" syndrome.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Did you REALLY just note as MTG as an example of good balance?! ...

You're over simplifying and confusing balance and tight rules. One can have poor balance between factions while still having tight rules.

At a minimum, MtG has tight rules that make sense. Rarely do player run into situations where the interactions do not make sense with what is written on the cards. When they do run into those interactions, it is typically available online for immediate rectification of the rule question. GW games, have many rule's holes, which GW's solution is role a D6. With many less variables (cards or models), GW should have a much simpler time plugging the holes in their rules. MtG rules also tend to make more common sense, where as GW rules can fly completely in the face of logic. Why can't my SM with a bolter pick up the plasma gun the gun in front of him just dropped when he died? Why would a Chaos god turn a champion that just killed something in his name, turn him into a spawn?

MtG cards are fairly balanced between each other based on rarity, mana cost and color. There are examples of cards which are outliers on each end of the OP and worthless tails of the curve, but they tend to be reasonable; especially considering the volume of cards produced and the time frame. For an accurate comparison, one would need to allow play from all editions of 40K against each other. Imagine a 2nd edition Lord going against a 5th edition Lord. Not balanced at all.

As for rares being better and more expensive; its no different than GW making the newest, most expensive models better than the old stuff. See the Riptide, Helldrake, etc.

GW - Score: 3.

A company that does not even try to hide that they do not want interaction / feedback from their customers other than sales. It used to lead the way in customer interaction. Now it appears to be a liability to them.

Much of it's existence now showing "profit" is by shrinking and selling off what assets it built up during it's "golden age".

Anything "handling" it's IP or in the ballpark other than GW is considered hostile and is treated as such (hobby stores, fan base sites, conversion / scale alternate parts suppliers).

Big changes to the meta of the game on a publication / supplement basis and is marked-up accordingly.

Best execution of model design - probably, "Gorgeous" esthetic design, as of late; no.

Just compare with Privateer Press and Fantasy Flight.

I gave them a 6. They have high quality product, yet their business model is unsustainable. From a customer satisfaction point of view, I would have rated them higher if their product was more accessable.

SJ

I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

i gave it a 6...

overal the detail and quality of the minis is getting better...

but i dont like the huge models they ar making lately... they are turning a miniature game to a toy game...

and i believe they are just doing it so they can keep up with their agenda of constantly raising the prices of their already overpriced products...

also the rate of releasing stuff got out of control and that is both nice and a dissapointment cause you wont be able to keep up eventually

higher prices ...faster rate of releasing... it is so obvius that they only care about our wallets and nothing more...

i thing GW is going down soon if it keeps that way.. fans will eventually stop spending their money on GW products and turn to other smaller companies...

also i find their colector book releases hilarius and are products targeted towards slowed people... they cost the double money and all they offer is a differnt hardcover...(SERIUSLLY?? wtf is buying that gak?)

i gave it a 6 but i am afraid they are dropping very fast..

i think at least the rules (at least the digital ones) should be out for free if they respect their fans

I say 7, sure it's expensive but despite some well known examples the models are pretty ace and the customer service is really really good.

I have had some really great games and have spent many happy hours modeling and painting.


...actually now that I think about it I think 7 is too low, maybe 8.5.

I am not clear what we are even rating here. Am I an investor in the company? Am I rating how much people like interacting with them? The quality of their products?

As you include more and more the number becomes diluted until it doesn't make any sense.

Didn't vote.

Rated them at 1. Models have appeal but are kinda nasty, publication quality is high but publication content (ie rules and story) are worthless most times. Not trying to be a jerk or nothing just calling them as I see them. Truly remarkable that they have existed so long.

 lobbywatson wrote:
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

We complain about the price because we compare GW to other companies in the same hobby, not 'the GW hobby' against other hobbies.
GW charge far more than any of their competitors who are putting out similar quality. Hell paying the same as you do for a finecast greater demon model from the 90s you can get some downright stunning, real resin demons.

@Boomwolf on the subject of MTG...Thats how magic works. Wizards HAS skewed certain cards to be better and others worse but all in the scheme of FORMATS. That's a key component to its design principles. Also power creep is present in any game. As strange as it may sound in magic, the cards of future sets (see ten years from now) may well eventually overlap the original "Power Nine" (though maybe not Mox's). More importantly the skew is a built in teaching tool to teach players how to identify 'efficient' cards. Then thanks to extended and eternal formats, 'bad' cards can eventually find new uses. Also Deck building restrictions still allow two cards that do an identical action but costs more to still be used. (Lightning bolt or Lightning strike for instance.)

Honestly GW couldn't hold a candle to Wizards as far as game production goes. Though Wizards IS making some very strange design decisions of late...We will have to see what that means for Wizards future.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

We complain about the price because we compare GW to other companies in the same hobby, not 'the GW hobby' against other hobbies.
GW charge far more than any of their competitors who are putting out similar quality. Hell paying the same as you do for a finecast greater demon model from the 90s you can get some downright stunning, real resin demons.

Ok sure I see what you're saying there. That makes sense to me. I am going to ask a question in all seriousness. Are the other companies actually cheaper or do they play at smaller model levels? I have never really looked at other games. I am happy with the one I got. So I ask this seriously. Is it like 40k being cheaper then fantasy only.because you play with less models? I have had friends tell.me PP stuff was just as expensive just when I see them play they only got like 15-20 models.on the table w/ no crazy vehicles like us 40k psyho's.

I dont known about Warmachine but infinity is $12-20 a model au, which is more expensive on a per model basis but each one is as well sculpted as a hero and 10 of them is all you need for an average game.
Compared to GW where a plastic hero is $22 and a finecast one is $38 or a whole army of at least $400.

Dystopian wars I picked up 2300 points for $250. Dystonian wars average size games are 750-1500 points so 2300 is the equivalent of over 3k points of 40k and is essentially an apoc force. A starter set runs you between $50 and $70 au and is a full, legal army. Ship for ship the price varies greatly as ships vary from an inch to like 6 inches but that big dreadnought centerpiece model itself is only like $20/$25.

X wing is $20 a ship and $40(?) For the bigger ones locally but unless your spamming ties 3-5 ships is a full sized game.

Then there is the Perry twins models. These guys did a lot of sculpting work for GW so essentially the same quality but the Vikings I got was $200 for something like 120+ men (after a rather annoying shipping cost).

I've just ordered some models from Victoria miniatures do as counts as gaunts ghosts and that was $45 for 10 metal guardsmen, which I thought was pretty good but that's more an aesthetic opinion.

Mantics games I have yet to play but I've handled the models and for about a quarter of GWs prices you get about 95% of the quality. I don't know but I would find it hard to believe you need more models for kings of war than fantasy.

Mierce sell greater demons which are amazingly well detailed and real resin for the same price locally as GWs crappy, outdated and smaller finecast ones.

I could probably think of some more examples but that's already a hell of a rant to post from a phone.

KoW seems to use about the same amount of figs as WHFB and the sell for half the cost. I did a comparison with KoWs undead boxed army vs the same number of models from GW and GW was over three times as much when you included the rules. That's for the same number of models, which was about 1,000 points or so so entry level army. That's insane for a new player. It came to like $174.99 for the Mantic box (including the rules) and $588.00 for GW (including rules + army book) for the starter level of army that a new player would be expected to have to even begin fighting regular games (to say nothing of the fact most WHFB players play higher than 1,000 points). Factor in paints and supplies and you're at over $700 JUST TO GET STARTED.

That's not normal price raises at all.

Yes, almost everything else is cheaper than GW. If we compare plastic models to plastic models and resin/metal models to resin/metal models, just a few Google searches would indicate that this is indeed the case. Even if you skew it quite a bit (GW plastics to other companies' resin/metal), the price difference is not that far off.

GW minis are really expensive, and the quality of Finecast is certainly questionable. Not to mention to play a GW game, you need a buttload of miniatures. Even if it doesn't need that, they are still more expensive than other companies so saying that they are outrageously priced has merits.

 jonolikespie wrote:
snip

Not sure if you're arguing for or against GW and it's prices.

Anyway, the arguments come down this way in all price threads; per model and per game. Per model is self explanatory, where as per game relates to how much money it takes to play a standard "game". There are hundreds of threads on this already, so not worth bringing up again.

 heartserenade wrote:
GW minis are really expensive, and the quality of Finecast is certainly questionable. Not to mention to play a GW game, you need a buttload of miniatures. Even if it doesn't need that, they are still more expensive than other companies so saying that they are outrageously priced has merits.

This to me is the real problem. I pretty much want to play 40k again but I cannot justify the price cost, and that's with having a boxed army from previous years at my disposal. It's still a crazy amount of money to pay to build up the army, and that's assuming I want to play that army - if I went with an army I'd have to start from scratch I'd again be looking at dropping about $300+ just to start and that's hoping that the regulars don't mind playing lower points battles or you'll still be unable to play.

I'm sorry but when I can spend $120 or so on two figures (Tau Commander and Riptide, as cool as the Riptide is) or $175 for around 100 figures or more (Mantic Kings of War boxed army), the choice is clear to me, regardless of how much I enjoy GW's fluff and the world(s) they've created; the price point is too high and unjustifiable for a game. Couple that with the more I read, see and hear is that 40k and WHFB just aren't enjoyable games as they focus on the metagame and "net lists" and I'll take a game that lets you win or lose on strategy versus a game where you can literally win by having more money to spend than your opponent and therefore able to field more super-powered units that give you an advantage.

Barfolomew wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
snip

Not sure if you're arguing for or against GW and it's prices.

Anyway, the arguments come down this way in all price threads; per model and per game. Per model is self explanatory, where as per game relates to how much money it takes to play a standard "game". There are hundreds of threads on this already, so not worth bringing up again.

The point was that GW loses to plenty of companies when comparing the quality of two similarly priced models. It looses to even more when comparing the price of two similar quality models. It loses to everyone when comparing the cost of entire armies.
Because of that I can not fathom people rating the company highly. They do NOT offer ANYTHING to make up for it.

 jonolikespie wrote:

Barfolomew wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
snip

Not sure if you're arguing for or against GW and it's prices.

Anyway, the arguments come down this way in all price threads; per model and per game. Per model is self explanatory, where as per game relates to how much money it takes to play a standard "game". There are hundreds of threads on this already, so not worth bringing up again.

The point was that GW loses to plenty of companies when comparing the quality of two similarly priced models. It looses to even more when comparing the price of two similar quality models. It loses to everyone when comparing the cost of entire armies.
Because of that I can not fathom people rating the company highly. They do NOT offer ANYTHING to make up for it.

They offer models tied to a universe that a lot of people love. Mantics Enforcers are cheaper and of similar quality to Space Marines but you know... They're not Space Marines.

But wouldn't the 40k IP actually benefit greatly from another company getting their hands on it?
The current staff at GW didn't build it, they just made GKs kill sisters and BAs besties with necrons. Another company producing the same (or better) models for cheaper, whilst listening to fan feedback, trying to grow the hobby and putting out a clearer and cleaner ruleset would be wonderful.
Owning a good IP does not a good company make.

They make excellent miniatures and have good customer service. Unfortunately, they are inept in every other way. Whoever's responsible for their marketing strategy is almost single-handedly killing the company.

Looking at the company as a whole for as long as I've been a customer, I gave GW a 7. I generally think that it has consistently had the best models on the market, I enjoy Reading books from Black Library, their customer service (over the past 20 years that I've been buying their products) has been great and, most importantly, I've enjoyed countless hours with my friends playing Warhammer Fantasy and 40K. Price increases suck but I have enough models for all my armies that I rarely need to purchase much anymore. Plus, my other hobbies cost far more. I do wish GW was more like it used to be in the late 90s and early 2000s but times change, companies change and it's a different world. I'm not privy to their internal affairs or operations so who knows why they make the decisions that are made. Besides, at the end of the day, there are far more unscrupulous companies in the world screwing people over. Anyhow, I've had many more years and instances of enjoyment than headache.

Flames of War is a bit cheeper, granted its a much smaller scale, but all the models are made of pewter and resin whichs costs more than plastic. I made my entire German army, about 2000 points, or more, for less than $200. It cost me almost $300-$400 to make my plastic space marines army.

My brother orders lots of Perry minitures and has piles of Roman and Gauls, Cannons and revolutionary models, all about the size of a 1500-2000 pt Warhammer armie and none of them cost more than $150-$200 for the army. They are all 28mm models as well, and the quality of them is high in my books

Even Bolt Action is cheaper than GW. I can get a tank for $30 instead of $50, I got my 3 squads with transports for $75, and the books are $15-$20. They too are 28mm.

Barfolomew wrote:
Why would a Chaos god turn a champion that just killed something in his name, turn him into a spawn?

Chaos has ALWAYS been that way. I played chaos warband leagues all the time and they were a lot of fun, but you never knew when getting rewarded if your patron was going to raise you up in someway or turn you into a spawn. You killed something in your patron's name? So what? It was only a gretchin, or he wanted the kill to be something more impressive, or he had a liking for that model you killed for some reason. Chaos has always been that fickle about things. It is the very nature of chaos to be, well, chaotic. I could see your point if that had just suddenly appeared on the horizon to be added to the CSM codex, but such situations were written into the original chaos hardbacks from the very beginning. The annoying thing, though, is that while it was fun when you were playing a warbands league to suddenly see your rising star turned into a spawn and have your warband taken over by his lieutenant, it is not fun to have your general suddenly become a spawn a critical point in a tournement game against an army that doesn't have a chance of their general screwing themself over because they MUST issue challanges. That is ultimately why all that random crap was removed from the chaos armies going forward in 40k and WFB. The only reason I can think to bring it back now is because they had zero new ideas to bring to the table for CSMs.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lobbywatson wrote:
I'm kinda surprised by the amount of people who talk about price being the biggest issue. Hobbies cost money. They are a luxury. They are purposefully expensive. GW raising prices isn't what caused sales to drop. Sales dropping caused price increases. This us true with many businesses. Of course inflation and raw material factor in as well. I have managed businesses and beat my head against P&L reports for 14 years now. Plain fact for a publicly traded company. You can sell less as long as profit is increased YOY. Shareholders will forgive that. They will not forgive profit loss in any way shape or form.
Last thing. Lowering prices rarely increases sales they only lower profit. Rarely will you sell enough to overcome the profit loss you endured by lowering prices.
As for price this hobby is somewhat expensive but they're far worse ones. Try collecting fixing up old cars, model trains, RC racers for that matter, boats (I had a small bass boat once. stab my face), motorcycles, the list goes on. I spend about 1000 annually. I find that to be pretty cheap overall.

GW is all about the shareholders now which means they now care very little for the customers. The constant price increases are a part of that path and those price increases have never been about inflation and are everything about profit. So of course people are going to complain about the prices as a big part of their issues with the company because, after all we are NOT collecting motorcycles, building old cars or antiqueing. We are playing a GAME and it is just ridiculous to pay this much for such a hobby. Comparing playing GW games to hobbies like those expensive ones to give "perspective" just makes it even clearer that the game is way over priced. I've owned two businesses in my day and it was always a tightrope walk between providing superior product and keeping pricing competitive. The proper comparison for GW as a hobby is against other miniatures games not high end things like motorcycles and in that comparison they are failing across the board: Highest start up costs, yearly price hikes well above inflation, poorly written rules, practically non-existant rules maintenance and support. The list goes on and on. That is why people complain, but that first one is a biggie. If I want a hobby as expensive as collecting motorcycles then I will collect motorcycles and not miniatures for a game.

With what I own I could get buy without spending anything on this hobby with GW ever again and be fine, but that doesn't make the overall hobby *cheap*. It just means it would be cheap for me...

Skriker

I gave them a 4.

Positives:
-Cool models
-Incredibly detailed universe with lots of support through novels and things like the FW books.
-Detailed rules
-Easy to find models and games locally, so a large fan base

Negatives
-Horus Heresy BL books appear to have gone off the deep end and have serious continuity issues. FW's take on the Heresy is far better.
-Prices are on par with printer ink and crack.
-Inability to keep focused. Last year FAQs were coming regularly and solving big issues; then they stopped. There are still serious outstanding items.
-Failure to properly edit and organize their rule books. Most appear to have little to no play testing. Various new rules in 6th appear to have had little forethought on how they interact with others.
-Serious lack of communication with players. Rule questions are replied to with a generic brush off message. Fans only have rumors to find out what may be coming out.
- Apparent total disregard for people that are primarily interested in a solid core game with easy mechanics. Various people within GW apparently think all we want to do is slap down a few hundred models, yell out "pew pew" and have each player roll a single die to see who "won". Whereas the player base really really wants to actually play a *game*.

Not sure how I feel about the following
-Constant "reimagining" of the various races and even "history" in the 40k universe. I feel like it would be better served if they moved the universe forward, allowing each race to grow in complexity or even to change their behavior based on large events. However, at the same time, I understand it's hard to change the nature of a race, like what happened with Necrons, without throwing away previously established "fluff". So, I'm on the fence here.


==========

I gave it a 3.

There are a number of lovely models produced by GW but they are all very expensive these well made models being the only reason I didnt vote 1.

For me it seem's GW dont rate their rivals and therefore feel they dont need to pay attention to the market and set pricing to be competitive. This just helps their rivals grow and will hurt their dominance. They are constantly showing no interest in the community and stating they are a retail company. The big problem here being that what they sell requires support in the way of the rules and codices and if they refuse to deal with the gaming aspect of their product as is happening people will just give up or not bother anymore. They seem to not realise they are selling a game with rules and a community (or dont care) and act like they are just selling G.I Joes. They really seem to me like they dont know what their doing or how to deal with customers giving an arrogant impression of themselves thinking they dont have to try and people will just keep buying. They need a wake up call that the key to selling more isnt price but support.

8.

Top notch IP and continued branding.

Each main edition of the games is dramatically better than the previous.

Faction books are mostly better for the game than previous, but they're sacrificing a little too much of the original background material.

Price per unit is getting a little carried away on some things.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
8.

Each main edition of the games is dramatically better than the previous.

You are trolling, aren't you...because that is so far and away not even remotely true...

Skriker

Having idiotic claims over intellectual property, and silly pricing/moneygrabs, as well as not listening to the fanbase :/ Not really much to say without a rant, lets leave it with "satan"