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WayneTheGame wrote:
They don't seem to care about how supply and demand work either. S&D would be - see sales dropping, lower prices while still maintaining profit. GW logic - sales dropping, raise prices for everything and especially the things people buy to offset the reduced sales elsewhere and keep the insane profit margins.

That works. If you’re losing sales because you’re pricing people out, or that your competitors are undercutting.

If it’s not one of those things, then lowering price does nothing but lower your profit margins further, until you don't have one. Maybe they had a more informed possition on why there are less sales.

Certainly from the earnings report it seems as a company they have taken the correct approach to keeping the business running rather than the incorrect one. We can speculate. Sometimes desicions made to float the business are not always good for the customer, indeed when your facing needing more income from somewhere the customer will never win, whichever way the deficite is managed it will eventually impact the customer someway, some are more subtle than others.

 da001 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Capitalism is not about "the higher the price the better the business".

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Demand for Warhammer 40000 products is extreme. Books from the Horus Heresy regularly make it into The New York Times Bestseller List, and everyone who likes science fiction or games has heard of it. The franchise could be as big as Star Wars or Marvel heroes, we could have movies with Hollywood stars on them. But we have not. Because most of the people out there are ex-players, people who got fed up on getting their favorite faction mistreated or retconned out of existence, people who got priced out of the game, people who got so pissed off by GW that abandoned the game they loved, no longer willing to support the company in any sense.

Many, many marketing and business decisions from GW are absolutely nonsensical, hilariously stupid and/or aimed on self-destruction. The only reason the company still exists is because the setting created by the original authors (who are no longer part of the company) is amazingly good, so we have die-hard fans able to pay preposterous amounts of money for low-quality products made in a rush with nearly zero effort by people without talent that care not for the quality of the final product, sometimes for over 20 years, investing countless hours and lots of money and love on the hobby.

Sometimes I feel like a drug addict when I buy their products, I feel shame for buying something that more probably than not will cause me more nerd rage than joy. They are living out of other people´s talent, cannibalizing whatever they can, and I fear every release, because every change they are doing is for the worse, and rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant omg my poor Tyranids what did they do oh the horror the horror.

I'd point out though that them getting onto the NY Times best seller list is largely due to manipulation. It's made by the amount of books ordered by the store, not by the amount of copies bought by the public consumer. BL prints a small finite amount of copies and regularly stops printing titles altogether for no reason other than trying to make bookstores buy large amounts of their copies so they actually have a body of the works to sell.

As for GW, I rate them a 2, for being a largely suicidal business that will die hard if any model company comes around that can rival their share of the market and GW doesn't finally smack some sense into itself and get its sh*t together, because they're in a rightly sorry state as of now and wouldn't last long against a rival business. Their products are hilariously marked up over their value and either they are suffering horrendous losses we don't know about.... or the more likely and they're simply gunning for short term profits, which is bad for long-term longevity. Their phobia of modern technology doesn't help either with them seeming to do little to invest in actually pushing W40K into the public view rather than simply rely on their fans. They don't push. They'll get wiped out by any competent company that knows what its' doing that comes along with a better product. The only thing I really see keeping GW afloat for any future duration is the iconic nature of W40K, which is just hard to fight. It doesn't matter how good your customer service was. Even now I'm worried about investing into a product that might be dead as the dodo withing a decade as technology marches on. GW just doesn't seem to be smart. They don't take real risks. They don't invest. They simply do the only thing they apparently 'know' how to do and constantly hike up the price. And I hate it because I love W40K and would hate it to befall as miserable fate because GW fethed up.

GW hiking prices up isn't capitalist people. That's simply the business practice of an idiot. A smart capitalist company invests. They invest their license, they invest their name, and they invest their resources. For example, even a mediocre blockbuster W40K movie would RAKE in a new audience and help as extremely profitable marketing. Expanding their license would also be profitable. It's sad that it's easier for me to buy a Minecraft T-shirt than it is to buy a W40K T-shirt made by the company owning the IP.

Also, of the numerous things GW really just has to stop doing, it's special editions. Just.... no. They're counter-intuitive and in the end limit prices.

Once we get some more votes ( im thinking 300) ill average them out and see where gw is at.

Just looked up the Glassdoor reviews on GW and they arent much better to their employees than they are to their customers. Its kind of sad really.

 Paradigm wrote:
I am in two minds about GW.

On one hand, they produce models that are, without a doubt, among the best on the market in terms of actual gaming. Please note I'm not saying that there aren't some far, far better models out there (there are) but they are in general intended for display or painting rather than tabletop use. As far as hard-plastic, gaming-centric models go, GW are the best out there.

Their rules are also solid. Not perfect, but solid enough that anyone who isn't being deliberately pedantic and looking to gain an advantage based purely on 17 different uses for the word 'and' can use them to play a game. Similarly, balance is not an issue unless people are deliberately looking for the most powerful combination. To play the game in the way it seems clear GW intended, playing with two forces chosen because you like the units for whatever rather than because of stats, and interpreting the rules as the framework for a narrative rather than as a be-all-and-end-all of playing the game, then the rules are solid, balanced and function as well as they have to to facilitate a narrative.

On the other hand, there are many, many things I detest about the company. The complete unwillingness to listen to the player-base, the excessive prices and the policy of pretending they are the only gaming company out there are all things I dislike. There is no reason for the prices to be so high when there are companies producing models that are nearly as good for half the price. In an age where there are so many new gaming companies ignoring them rather than working with them (or hell, even acknowledging they exist) for the promotion of the hobby as a whole. The company seems to be as inwardly centred and insular as it gets.

In summary, I'd put it like this: The products they produce are great, the way they go about producing, releasing and selling them is flawed.

This chap saved me typing out my thoughts.

They got a 7 from me; but that is on the basis on me as a customer of GW PLC.

As a gamer who is getting his feet wet out of the GW bubble, they get a rating of a 2 or a 1 depending upon how harsh we feel.

The game is getting creaky, clunky and due to some of the 40k community a right pain in the arse to play due to silly combos etc.

Moreover many seem to blatantly assume things with regards to what type of match they want to play without asking. Warmahordes is superior in that regard due to the infamous page 5 which creates a level playing ground, so expect the cheese but played honourably not by some smug git with an axe to grind.

Other than the gripes I have stated GW still knock the socks off the competition in terms of model quality. You cannot fault them there, that must be said.

They need a kick up the backside really...

I voted a 4.

Great models and settings, usually good customer service.

Poor balance is a serious problem for game companies, and they barely seem to care.

I think the current rules for both systems are overly complicated.

The prices are at a point where I will no longer start a new army. Army Books/Codex prices are at a point where I will no longer buy rules for armies I don't play (and in the past, I would then be tempted to start them).

 Paradigm wrote:
I am in two minds about GW.

On one hand, they produce models that are, without a doubt, among the best on the market in terms of actual gaming. Please note I'm not saying that there aren't some far, far better models out there (there are) but they are in general intended for display or painting rather than tabletop use. As far as hard-plastic, gaming-centric models go, GW are the best out there.

Their rules are also solid. Not perfect, but solid enough that anyone who isn't being deliberately pedantic and looking to gain an advantage based purely on 17 different uses for the word 'and' can use them to play a game. Similarly, balance is not an issue unless people are deliberately looking for the most powerful combination. To play the game in the way it seems clear GW intended, playing with two forces chosen because you like the units for whatever rather than because of stats, and interpreting the rules as the framework for a narrative rather than as a be-all-and-end-all of playing the game, then the rules are solid, balanced and function as well as they have to to facilitate a narrative.

On the other hand, there are many, many things I detest about the company. The complete unwillingness to listen to the player-base, the excessive prices and the policy of pretending they are the only gaming company out there are all things I dislike. There is no reason for the prices to be so high when there are companies producing models that are nearly as good for half the price. In an age where there are so many new gaming companies ignoring them rather than working with them (or hell, even acknowledging they exist) for the promotion of the hobby as a whole. The company seems to be as inwardly centred and insular as it gets.

In summary, I'd put it like this: The products they produce are great, the way they go about producing, releasing and selling them is flawed.

You stole my thoughts. I fully concur.

I voted 2, only because they aren't Comcast.

This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

With 5 being a company i have no feelings towards at all, i rate gw a 3. Possibly my feelings towards them have mellowed somewhat since i stopped buying anything other than a couple of updated codexes from them in the last 3 or so years.

I gave them an 8. -1 point for prices, -1 point for lack of attention to FAQs. They have THE best customer service I have ever encountered in any company. I personally love the quality of their models (minus finecast, but that's easily avoided for me). Their rules are fine for me. Yes there are mistakes, but when you are trying to balance and keep track of hundreds upon hundreds of rules for a game that constantly has unique scenarios, you are bound to miss some things. Their stores are amazingly friendly and have constant events for the community, which is great. But most importantly, despite their business decisions and their rules imperfections, they have provided me with a hobby that I have sunk countless hours into without regret. For that I will always be grateful.

It's obviously not a horrendous company if people keep coming back to it. People just like to bltch. There's no perfect product out there... They make a cool product that has millions hooked and I enjoy collecting, painting, and playing with their models.

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Well i think that it is intersting to here people opinions. You dont ahve to vote or look at this page.

7.

Because I wanted to subjectively give them praise for their miniatures and customer service while at the same time giving them gak rating for their rules and prices.

Here's the thing about a 10-point scale: it's a sham.

1-7 : BAD.
8-10: GOOD.

That's how a 10-point scale works when evaluating it. It could also be evaluated as
1-5: BAD
6-8: Average
9-10: GOOD.

But a <7 is always a really bad score for a business. Really really gak score. You don't want 7, really, 'cause that means you are failing as a business. Which is why I gave them a 7

RE: Rules, I would rather have simpler and more abstract rules that allowed for flexibility in individual groups to add things but not bogging down the game with dozens of rules. If they really want to emphasize "forging the narrative" then that should be the goal.

I keep bringing it up but look at Kings of War's rules. They are extremely simple, but in that simplicity becomes a very good framework for creating your own special rules or scenarios that fit your league or campaign. You can easily, for example, create a custom scenario or have some kind of bonus given to a unit to represent something without having explicit rules state what you can and can't do. Standardize rules for tournaments, but keep them basic and abstract for modification in campaigns.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Well i think that it is intersting to here people opinions. You dont ahve to vote or look at this page.

However, as I explained the opinions on the thread aren't taking into account the full picture with GW.

I did not vote in the poll for this reason.

I gave a 5. My basis for lowering the score was purely money. I find GW is too greedy. The models are overpriced, when a codex comes out it gets another 50 dollar supplement in a few months time that really should just be part of the dex. The magazine issue is a blatant money grab. Cycling models out so you have to buy the new thing is kind of a wash because you get new models to use but you lose old ones, still fiscally motivated but that's to be expected with a new dex. In fact I would be pissed if I got a new dex and no models. It comes down to being to greedy. I don't care about the rules, they are good and for the most part everybody is still playing and having fun so we should really all shut up about them. But Internet traffic would grind to a halt if nobody complained on here anymore.

 sing your life wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Well i think that it is intersting to here people opinions. You dont ahve to vote or look at this page.

However, as I explained the opinions on the thread aren't taking into account the full picture with GW.

I did not vote in the poll for this reason.

It doesnt matter. Their goal is to service customers for a profit. If they fail to provide customer satisfaction then as a business they will fail... eventually. We dont have to know everything about a person to dislike them, same with a company. Otherwise we couldnt dislike any company at all besides our own if (if you own one). We are stating our opinions as customers who have been serviced by GW for (most of us) years. If we arent happy then there is a reason for it, which is stated in the opinions of those in the poll.

one positive thing about GW is it is giving other companies a lot of lee way (through pricing) to produce their own minis and sometimes games. In my opinion GW is slowly having to share more of its market. Which is great.

Voidwraith wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
The problem with the pricing is not the fact they are maximising profit, it is the fact that there are other companies out there doing comparable things in wargaming with a much lower cost.

Take mantic for example. A lot of their models are on par with GW in quality, and are half the price. Their rules are available free, where GW charges £45 for a rulebook. They run sales and offers, where GW don't. The end result is that although GW is financially more successful, they lose the goodwill of the customer, whereas a large proportion of those who have had dealings with Mantic are willing to support and promote the company, which is in the long run far better than the GW policy of 'take all we can get, give nothing back'.

Kudos to Mantic. Maybe one day companies like them will unseat GW. In the meantime, we're all still here complaining about Games-Workshop, so there must be something to this 40k game that we're interested in protecting.

Please don't think I'm saying that 40k should just go away. As a universe, I love it, as a game, I love it, and as far as the models go, I love it. Like I said in my first post in this thread, the problem is not with the product at all, but with how it is handled by the company behind it. In a world where more and more companies are producing GW-quality products at half the price, while GW screw the customers for every last penny, they are not really defendale as a business from a customer's point of view. I love 40k, but I wish it was handled better.

To be honest, unless there is some serious change at GW, I give them another 5-7 years as market leaders before Mantic, Freamforge or someone else takes over. In the face of new competition, GW are going to have to step up their game.

sing your life wrote:This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

Fair point. However, I would argue that how the customers see the company is just as important as how someone with a background in business sees it. Ultimately, the success of GW or any other company depends on customers continuing to spend their money there rather than leaving the market or going to the competition, and the customers will only do that if they see the company as competent, effective, and actually providing something in the way that they want. It doesn't matter what GW are doing from a business POV if what the customers see is a faceless, greedy and stubborn corporation.

I'm into a lot of nerdy things (video games, comic books, etc.) and they're easily the worst recreational activities company I've come across by a mile. The greed is expected but they transcend corporate greed, are constantly trying to literally scam customers rather than simply rip them off, have zero interest in customer interaction, and most of all seem to have a disdain for the customers themselves. After being heavily invested in Marvel comics for the last few months, it was refreshing to see a company that actually has a modicum of fondness for its customer base and doesn't actively try to scam me every week.

They make EA seem absolutely saintly. I wish GW nothing but financial harm. I know it's considered le edgy here to defend them, but that's just outside of reality.

So it is a table top company that has a well established game system and a very wide variety of some of the best looking plastic minis around. They also sell some decent paints, but some rubbish hobby tools.

The pricing is bad, but I buy at a discount, which makes it OK. 10 Plaguebearers are $21 where I go, instead of about $30. The discount kept in mind, as I doubt I could ever buy straight up prices again, I like GW.

So the good: Long standing pretty unique game with a good core set of rules. Amazing models that provide a lot of entertainment to assemble and paint, and HUGE amounts of lore and backstory on just about everything in the game.

The Bad: Prices, without discount it would be far too much .Lack of ability to fess up to their own mistakes. Most new codex have at least one glaring error, or issue with common sense that has the players frustrated. I feel like GW could easily have some play testers and the author get together and ask, "What did you intend with this?" This also brings me to the huge gap GW puts between itself and it's fans/consumers. I feel like there is never direct communication with GW or any authors. This bugs the hell out of me.

Possible improvements: I have a vague idea of where GW is going, and where 6th is going (40k) and I like it. We are seeing some boxed sets that are actually good deals, and we are seeing a good release of codex in a timely manor. No more 6-8 months of nothing, then boom, new codex.

I voted a 5. Still think their minis are some of the best in gaming, but their rules are terrible. They've had two and a half decades to get their rules sorted and they still can't do it. So strike one. I love the background and concepts of the game universe and where the various forces fit in and the bleak dark outlook of the future, but have been rather disappointed with the way certain aspects of it have been implemented. Strike two. Their customer service when you have a product problem is always stellar, with replacements on their way incredibly fast. Unfortunately other aspects of their customer service is not as good, like stripping the staffing down in US GW stores so far that I just don't even bother to go to my local GW anymore. The one man store is too far away for me to make the trek to it only to find the store closed AGAIN during the posted open hours. Ridiculous. Also they continue to raise prices to a premium without providing a similar premium raise in quality or content. $50 for a new codex? OK. Nice pretty book with a hardback cover. OK. Only problem is that I don't buy a book like that to be pretty. I buy it based on the content and the content of the newer books is just not even remotely improved to warrant nearly doubing the price. I can't even believe anyone buys the "Collector's Editions" of the new books either, but to each his own. Also minor kit expansions that lead to premium price increases is also annoying. Like upgrading the 'nid warriors to add a few extra weapon options and shooting the price up, or $50 for *5* Sternguard models. $50 used to be the cost for 5 terminator sized minis, but now those are even higher than that. Strike 3, 4 and so on.

I think I padded my score upwards a bit because of the past history I've had with the game and the company. I have been an avid reader of White Dwarf from around issue 15 or so. I started with WFB 3rd edition and Rogue Trader along with Adeptus Titanticus. At this stage, though, I am planning my exit as a GW customer. I am finishing up the final units in my ork army (from ebay when possible) and waiting on a couple 6th edition codex updates and then I am done buying from GW for good. I'll keep playing and using all the minis I have for all the games of their's that I still play, but the prices are crazy, and new editions just to make more money without making the game any better have just done it for me.

Skriker

GW needs to abandon the whole "collector" thing.

We are gamers, 40k is a game - thats what drives sales.

They can keep calling us collectors as an excuse to why the game part is not more solid, or they don't acknowledge events, but to keep calling us collectors - is either them not knowing their customers (i.e. we are gamers) or them thinking they can fool us (which is also not knowing their customers).

If this really was just a "collecting" hobby - then no one would need more than 1 of a model, much less 100 of them.

Gave them a 7 havent done anything horrible the models are extremely good quality the game rules are playable but not great this release schedule is pretty steller though.

davethepak wrote:
GW needs to abandon the whole "collector" thing.

We are gamers, 40k is a game - thats what drives sales.

They can keep calling us collectors as an excuse to why the game part is not more solid, or they don't acknowledge events, but to keep calling us collectors - is either them not knowing their customers (i.e. we are gamers) or them thinking they can fool us (which is also not knowing their customers).

If this really was just a "collecting" hobby - then no one would need more than 1 of a model, much less 100 of them.

Speak for yourself. A vocal proportion of hobbyists are 'gamers', but many are collectors, painters, background enthusiasts, etc.

GW, as a company focuses on being a model company, with the games being an added incentive. Nearly all of their literature states and supports this position, and its a sensible position to take- even if people drift away from Warhammer as a game, the interest in scale models is likely to remain. Its one of the main reasons their product has continued to endure- dropping it would be the worst decision they could make.

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

It is a poll on *customer* rating...all you need to rate as a customer is BE A CUSTOMER. So the poll is perfectly valid. You don't need an MBA to have an opinion on whether GW is holding up its end of the bargain towards its customerbase.

Skriker

 CadianXV wrote:

davethepak wrote:
GW needs to abandon the whole "collector" thing.

We are gamers, 40k is a game - thats what drives sales.

They can keep calling us collectors as an excuse to why the game part is not more solid, or they don't acknowledge events, but to keep calling us collectors - is either them not knowing their customers (i.e. we are gamers) or them thinking they can fool us (which is also not knowing their customers).

If this really was just a "collecting" hobby - then no one would need more than 1 of a model, much less 100 of them.

Speak for yourself. A vocal proportion of hobbyists are 'gamers', but many are collectors, painters, background enthusiasts, etc.

GW, as a company focuses on being a model company, with the games being an added incentive. Nearly all of their literature states and supports this position, and its a sensible position to take- even if people drift away from Warhammer as a game, the interest in scale models is likely to remain. Its one of the main reasons their product has continued to endure- dropping it would be the worst decision they could make.

And how much revenue does "collecting" bring in?

Don't get me wrong, I love the fluff, and the models. Heck I am planning on starting a lizard man army just because I love dinosaurs.
IF the rules are good...I will buy a whole army and paint it up. If they are bad, I might buy one model, and put it on my shelf.

You can be a gamer who is also a "many are collectors, painters, background enthusiasts, etc." They are not mutually exclusive.

But a collector does not need three heldrakes or five riptides or 60 marines - he buys significantly less - and its "games workshop" not "fantasy dollhouse collectors limited".

(note: I am not trying to insult someone who only buys the models for non-game reasons, I am trying to point out that only selling "collectables" is an incredibly different market).

Collecting brings in enough to keep Airfix going since 1939 and Hornby since 1901.

I accept that Gamers are also often enamoured with collecting, painting, etc. but it really gets my goat when a User unilaterally declares "Us" as "one thing" no matter what it is.

And collectors do buy several of the same model; I've lost count of the number of Harriers I've bought, not to mention Imperial Guardsmen, Space Marine Librarians, Brass Trains, and Yachts

Collectors may not always buy purely for an army, (although I'm sure many do), but I would imagine with the huge overlap between collectibles and Miniature wargaming, that they are a huge part of GW's revenue, seeing as that is where the company focus lies.

To quote Tom Kirby, "we here all make a living from serving collectors and we understand them and their needs"