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 CadianXV wrote:
GW, as a company focuses on being a model company, with the games being an added incentive. Nearly all of their literature states and supports this position, and its a sensible position to take- even if people drift away from Warhammer as a game, the interest in scale models is likely to remain. Its one of the main reasons their product has continued to endure- dropping it would be the worst decision they could make.

This always makes me laugh, really hard. For decades now GW has been blowing off any real work on their rules by claiming that they are a "mini" company first and a rules/game company second and people continue to buy it into it. This is pure and utter bullcrap. When GW was small and new and a group of gamers who at the time were putting out one of the most expansive and amazing all metal mini lines ever, yeah they were more of a model company than a game company and just threw together some rules to use with their minis. Nowadays GW IS 40k and WFB. Without those games their minis sales would be close to non-existent. Without the continued cash cow of the new rule book new stream of codecies/army books and buy new armies cycle GW would be non-existent. Take away those games and you have a line of overpriced niche minis which no longer have a niche...Think back through this last year and please come up with any example where GW released an improved version of an existing mini kit that didn't directly involve the simultaneous release of a new rulebook as well? You can't because it doesn't happen anymore. They rules drive the model releases not the other way around. Thus GW is not a model company first, but a combined rule and model company and it would be nice with they would start to actually act like it.

Without 40k and WFB GW would not sell anywhere near as many minis as they do. So don't try and use that tired old line of them being a model company first, because without their games their models don't have enough to stand on their own...

Skriker

 Skriker wrote:

 sing your life wrote:
This poll is bad and should feel bad, as few posting in this thread have anything more than a vague of how GW [and many other companies] actually work. Unless users understand all the points they will not be able to post what they actually think about this company.

It is a poll on *customer* rating...all you need to rate as a customer is BE A CUSTOMER. So the poll is perfectly valid. You don't need an MBA to have an opinion on whether GW is holding up its end of the bargain towards its customerbase.

Skriker

I have a BSA with highest honors, does that count for anything?
If I owned GW I would take a look at my customer base disintegration, schizophrenic business policy, cooked profit margins, and immediately dismiss the entire board.

"Collecting brings in enough to keep Airfix going since 1939 and Hornby since 1901." - actually, no it doesn't.

And thats why airfix went under and was bought by humbrol, then went under and was bought my humbry.who bought them for 2.6 million pounds in 2006.

GW is over 123 million in 2011.

And Tom's quote is part of their mis-information and they don't understand them or their needs.

Collectors are willing to pay top dollar for top quality (such as some of the nice fine scale kits out there) - games workshop - they make games.

How well did collecting keep battlefleet gothic up when they abandoned the rules?

if collecting was enough, they would never cancel products or product lines.

Look, yes, there are collectors - never said there were not - but that is not the bulk volume of their sales - GW is in denial on what their products are used for - for example on the tyranid (and others) psychic power cards - they say for "collectors".

A model collector does not need a card with rules on it.
Thats for playing a game, and that is what drives their business.

 sing your life wrote:


However, as I explained the opinions on the thread aren't taking into account the full picture with GW.

I did not vote in the poll for this reason.

Because the poll only goes up to 10, right?

6 Mostly due to obvious reasons and of course ruining Orks completely.

I think they are an IP company that mistakes itself for a model company. I would love to see them focus on deals that let them monetize the IP and get the prices down for models. They don't seem to understand that the game gets better the more people that can play it.

xruslanx wrote:
They've been zealously unpopular ever since i can remember, and i've never understood why.

Really? You’ve searched the depths of your memory and cannot recount even a single reason why people might criticise or dislike GW? There’s not a thing in this world that has ever given you even the slightest inkling why people might hold that view? At all?

You really do live in an alternate reality...

xruslanx wrote:
If you don't like what they make, don't buy it. Seems obvious to me.

Ah, good. The “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line. Meaningless and utterly missing the point since… forever.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
They've been zealously unpopular ever since i can remember, and i've never understood why.

Really? You’ve searched the depths of your memory and cannot recount even a single reason why people might criticise or dislike GW? There’s not a thing in this world that has ever given you even the slightest inkling why people might hold that view? At all?

You really do live in an alternate reality...

xruslanx wrote:
If you don't like what they make, don't buy it. Seems obvious to me.

Ah, good. The “if you don’t like it, don’t buy it” line. Meaningless and utterly missing the point since… forever.

basically my exact thoughts

I'd really love to hear from the people who voted 10. Once they've finished their Kool-Aid, of course. No rush.

The more interesting responses to this thread are those saying that GW rules are good or “basically fine”. This isn’t anywhere close to being true, but I suspect that a lot of people saying that just haven’t experienced rules from other companies. And you know what? That’s fine. Not everyone is a “hobby veteran”, so to speak, so broad knowledge of other systems isn’t (and shouldn’t be) automatically assumed.

But it’s the ones that do not about other systems and doggedly defend GW’s rules. They’re the ones that are a real worry.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'd really love to hear from the people who voted 10. Once they've finished their Kool-Aid, of course. No rush.

Everything you've posted in the past few days has been gold.

I am trying (somewhat) to balance out the snarky ridicule with some actual reality (hence I edited my post with something of substance).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I am trying (somewhat) to balance out the snarky ridicule with some actual reality (hence I edited my post with something of substance).

Well every time I feel like posting in one of these threads, I've found that you've already said everything I would have.

I can't help but feel that your signature block is also the mantra of the apologists.

I would rate their IP at a 8-9, their models would be rated the same, their game I would rate a 2-3

I would rate them as a company a 1 since they seem to be doing everything wrong that business shouldnt do (ignoring feedback, not advertising unless you consider a store advertising, shunning long time consumers, etc.) And doing almost nothing right, (quality control on their products like failcast, offering sales or bundle deals, supporting your community instead I'd shunning and milking it for everything its got, etc.)

 Blacksails wrote:
I can't help but feel that your signature block is also the mantra of the apologists.

It's actually something an old boss of mine used to say when everything was going to hell in the office. It just kinda caught on, and we started using it for everything.

GAMES Workshop is a war GAMING company. Kirby's smoke and mirror comment that rules are not explicitly tied to model sales is just that, a way to cover GW's corporate cynicism. I know GW is a business. I know that they are in it to make money. I do not fault them for that. But they are destroying something that I love, and like many other users on here, I find myself in a very strange and perverse relationship with them. Sadly I have been completely priced out of the hobby. I can literally no longer afford it, so I have moved to other plastic crack dealers who sell their products at real world prices.

I give GW a 2, with the Dark Eldar line the only thing saving them from a 1. (it is truly magnificent)

And I'll leave you with ex GW veteran Warwick Kinrade, when speaking about his new Battlegroup Kursk ruleset,

"I'm not interested in making stuff powerful on the tabletop, which in my experience, is usually a fairly cynical attempt to boost miniatures sales and shows no respect to the players. Believe me it happens a lot, and there is a lot of sales pressures in the corporate world. I believe in the end, if the game plays well and is fun, people will want to buy the models anyway, you won't need to twist their arms (by twisting the game). But you need to design a game from the ground up with collection in mind, not shoehorn it in afterwards."

http://issuu.com/the_gazebo/docs/issue_3

I would have voted higher than a 5 years ago but since then they have really stopped caring about rule testing (Like many of you have said) Heck if FFG wrote the 40k rules I would be extremely happy. Fantacy Flight Games really has done a great job with their 40k table top games, too bad GW takes their money for it

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Heck if FFG wrote the 40k rules I would be extremely happy.

Of course if FFG did write the 40K rules you'd need more counters than the average WFB player needs miniatures.

Joking aside, I'd love GW to outsource their rules to a company like FFG. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 chapgrimaldus wrote:
Heck if FFG wrote the 40k rules I would be extremely happy.

Of course if FFG did write the 40K rules you'd need more counters than the average WFB player needs miniatures.

Joking aside, I'd love GW to outsource their rules to a company like FFG. I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

I'd start a petition if I thought GW listens to the customer's wants and needs, but sadly they don't care enough to do that anymore

I personally don't criticize GW as a business that much, I feel that I'm not really qualified due to my lack of experience running international companies.



The main thing I think they could improve upon is the gaming aspect; I believe a well-balanced, tournament-worthy ruleset would pay off for them more than they realize and wouldn't hurt the other aspects of the hobby at all.

GW thinks of itself as a miniatures company, while the only reason anyone would buy their miniatures is to play their games. They are too overpriced for anything else. GW needs to realize that making a better game would draw more customers in, getting them more money from miniature sales.

 Arcturus314 wrote:
GW thinks of itself as a miniatures company, while the only reason anyone would buy their miniatures is to play their games. They are too overpriced for anything else.

The last bit I disagree with. I use 40K models for sci-fi skirmish, and a box of Fire Warriors gets you more than enough models for a full warband. And that's not a high cost. It's when used with their designated rules that the models become overpriced.

I rated the company straight in the middle at 5. The company still comes out with interesting plots, stories, models etc. But I’ve been building and playing for many, many years no and it seems like every year they do something that really makes my look down on the company a bit.

The most minor thing is the constant price increase. I say this is minor because I understand that it is a business and businesses are out to make money. It is a problem to me because when I started, a box of minis was $15 bucks, and now it’s up to $37 something at my local shop. The thing that gets me most is that they are charging higher prices for lower quality products. Let’s face it, in my opinion, the new sculpting on some of the models is just pure hideous. The models look bad when assembled, and many of them are near impossible to put together without heavy modification. The fresh one in mind are the Lizardmen cav. When assembled they have massive cracks in the heads of the cold one and some of them seemed as if it were the complete wrong piece of two halves. Not to mention the new FineCraps that replaced the trust pewter. Bent staffs, massive holes in the model, broken, not cast right pieces. And the list goes on with that. I will always remember the 25th anniversary because my mini looks like crap.

To save on some ranting, I will just finish it with the constant undermining and kicking in the balls to third party model producers. Don’t make a codex, with good characters and unit, and not make models for them, then sue someone for making a model that (can be used as … model) and then after that company makes money of said things make a new codex and completely rip those models out of the book. Then, after 10 years of painting and getting used to the names of colors, change the names because too many people were copying their color names so they wanted to start off fresh with newly copy righted names.

I really dont get all the hate...

As a COMPANY, they are alright, pretty decent even.
Sure, it costs alot, but at least you can be sure any flaws in your models WILL be replaced (often by a whole new kit for just 1 flawed piece, and you keep your flawed one too)

Sure, the rule could be better, but you need to remember there are a gakton of options, and the release method means that you cannot go back and fix things that turn out too good/bad when compared to newer releases.

Weak choice? they were probably too careful with it.
OP choice? they probably missed an interaction or underestimated something.
Should it happen? no. DOES it happen? yes, to everyone.
Its not the rulemaker's fault they are forced into a silly "codex" routine rather then make and release new things individually. sure, things will get missed, things will get priced wrong and things will be messy.
Because they cant be fixed.

Finecast complains? that pretty much only hold for the old models, the newer casts (even with old models) are pretty flawless as I see. not a single bubble in my commander, not bending of pieces, no nothing.
Misfitting part? also NEVER had that issue, nor ever seen somebody else with it, only hear of it on the net, but never IRL. odd.
Paint names? well, its not like they just change names, they changed everything ABOUT the paint. how they work, what paints are out there, what TYPES are out there. its a whole new series, and I for one LOVE it.

No claims for perfection, nor will I defend the parts of the rules who ARE fethed up (IA upgrade on the riptide is worth way more then 5 points x_x) but overall-they are decent.
If you want a real bad company, look at those with customers who never receive their products, or get damaged ones that are not replaced, not the ones who do a wish-washy work at writing.
Writing is hard, look at "proposed rules" to see how hard it is, waves of people who give outright broken units and fail to see it, or asking "how to improve unit X", when it never needs a buff.
And these people work WITHIN a system, making the whole system from the get-go is so much harder.

You know a lot of people are saying GWs customer service is great and they'll happily replace everything and once upon a time I would have whole heatedly agreed with you.

Then I went and tore through 4 finecast Vargulfs, each of which was an absolute mess (at least 2 still had mold still attached), and my local redshirt tried convincing me that the patch of bubble holes just adds more texture to the fur.
When I didn't accept that he then implied that my expectations were unseasonable and gave me a refund very passive aggressively.

I would just like to point out SENDING a customer a COMPLETE replacement for a poor quality product , is the CHEAPEST OPTION FOR GW.

A £50 box costs GW plc about £13 to manufacture and deliver to their retail outlets.
So they HAVE to give you a £50 refund, OR GIVE you a REPLACEMENT by LAW.
So POSTING YOU a NEW COMPLETE box is cheaper , (Appx £15) .

And spending time getting some worker to BREAK OPEN a box they now can not sell to get you one sprue/part is just not cost effective.

So GW plc 'good customer service' is mainly JUST adhering to UK trading laws in the cheapest way possible for GW.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Sure, it costs alot, but at least you can be sure any flaws in your models WILL be replaced (often by a whole new kit for just 1 flawed piece, and you keep your flawed one too)

But that's just basic customer service that you have to provide if you don't want to get into legal trouble. If you sell a defective product you have to replace it or offer a refund. GW have just decided that it's cheaper to send out replacement kits no questions asked than to pay someone to spend time verifying replacement claims and hunting down the exact part you need replaced.

Sure, the rule could be better, but you need to remember there are a gakton of options, and the release method means that you cannot go back and fix things that turn out too good/bad when compared to newer releases.

Options are not an excuse. MTG has way more options than 40k, and doesn't suffer from the same problems. GW only has problems with their game because they don't care enough to invest the effort required to produce a high-quality game.

OP choice? they probably missed an interaction or underestimated something.

Sorry, but the only way GW could "miss an interaction" with some of the overpowered stuff they produce is if they don't playtest at all. Even basic competitive playtesting would reveal obvious balance problems like "don't allow a Revenant titan in a normal game".

Finecast complains? that pretty much only hold for the old models, the newer casts (even with old models) are pretty flawless as I see. not a single bubble in my commander, not bending of pieces, no nothing.

The material is still garbage even when it isn't a defective cast. It's way too soft and crumbly so it is easily damaged when trying to clean off mold lines or convert a model, and it's weak enough that it bends under its own weight in normal temperature ranges. Compare finecast to real resin and the problems are obvious.

Misfitting part? also NEVER had that issue, nor ever seen somebody else with it, only hear of it on the net, but never IRL. odd.

Then you're just really lucky. I've had fit problems even with plastic kits from GW. Not too many of them and even fewer crippling ones, but they exist.

Writing is hard, look at "proposed rules" to see how hard it is, waves of people who give outright broken units and fail to see it, or asking "how to improve unit X", when it never needs a buff.

The difference is that 99% of the content in the proposed rules forum is written by random players with little or no understanding of game design. GW's rule authors, on the other hand, are supposedly professional game designers that are getting paid to write high-quality rules. There is no excuse for their failures.

If you want to make an objective comparison between rule sets written by professional game developers , feel free.

Compare the rules to 40k /WHFB to any other game written by professional game developers at other companies .

In terms of clarity , brevity and elegance 40k and WHFB are comparatively awful.

You can have a ton of fun playing 40k/ WHFB games , but that is more down to the effort you and the people playing put in rather than the rules GW plc sell you.

Lots of games have a lot more variety and diversity then 40k /WHFB, but their rule books are well defined concise and intuitive.
(Because they are subjected to ample play testing, professional proof reading and editing.)

The rules are awful because they seem to encourage whoever has the money to buy the best units win, to sell more models ofc. I read a quote attributed to Jeremy Vetock that said that some armies should always win against others because of the "narrative" and another quote from a redshirt about the solution to facing that is to buy the army that trumps your opponent.

The game is not competitive because competition is based on the assumption of balance. 40k (not sure about WHFB) is certainly not balanced so competition is an illusion and what you really have is an arms race built around a flawed sales model (and the sales model IS flawed since it's designed around charging more for figures you use less of simply because you use less of them in a game).

GW has gone from a company selling a wargame and miniatures that go with it to a miniatures company that builds "rules" around pushing miniatures sales.

5.

Models are brilliant imo. Some of the fluff is very well conceived. Good atmosphere to their games. Artistically GW has done a lot to be praised for.

Management drags the score down a lot for me. Rushing out certain products, etc. Also changing the store policy to no longer support veteran gamers to play games, as it's all about bringing new people in. Certain things like that.

I do think they're good, it's just that you have to put them in context of modern companies which really do provide a lot more these days.

 da001 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, people who complain about their high prices clearly have not grasped the basics of capitalism.

Capitalism is not about "the higher the price the better the business".

Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

Demand for Warhammer 40000 products is extreme. Books from the Horus Heresy regularly make it into The New York Times Bestseller List, and everyone who likes science fiction or games has heard of it. The franchise could be as big as Star Wars or Marvel heroes, we could have movies with Hollywood stars on them. But we have not. Because most of the people out there are ex-players, people who got fed up on getting their favorite faction mistreated or retconned out of existence, people who got priced out of the game, people who got so pissed off by GW that abandoned the game they loved, no longer willing to support the company in any sense.

Many, many marketing and business decisions from GW are absolutely nonsensical, hilariously stupid and/or aimed on self-destruction. The only reason the company still exists is because the setting created by the original authors (who are no longer part of the company) is amazingly good, so we have die-hard fans able to pay preposterous amounts of money for low-quality products made in a rush with nearly zero effort by people without talent that care not for the quality of the final product, sometimes for over 20 years, investing countless hours and lots of money and love on the hobby.

Sometimes I feel like a drug addict when I buy their products, I feel shame for buying something that more probably than not will cause me more nerd rage than joy. They are living out of other people´s talent, cannibalizing whatever they can, and I fear every release, because every change they are doing is for the worse, and rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant rant omg my poor Tyranids what did they do oh the horror the horror.

I agree with this whole heartedly. I am a 16 veteran of GW games and I can tell you its not like it used to be. The new releases are bland. No flavor. The Tyranid book is about the most boring book I have ever seen. I dont even care that they are now probably the least competetive army (which they are close to) but they are just not fun. How can my friend ever play his tyranids vs some ones eldar? Its not even a game.