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Ferros wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:
Disagree with Chapter Tactics for C'tan. They are actual gods and not interested in their mindless minions at all. They are tools for them, mere peasants, while the C'tan hold limitless power and do their own thing. They aren't leaders in a sense of someone leading a squad, they are leaders in a sense of slavers.

C'Tan do seem to have a big impact on their followers.

Void Dragon - Pariahs
Flayed Ones
Etc.

It was just a thought, but, clearly they do play a role in how their "followers" operated.

That's been retconned.

C'tan are now slaves to the necrons.
Pariahs are gone, apparently. Wiped out from the lore

Flayed Ones are the result of a C'tan curse, not a blessing.

davethepak wrote:
MSS are fine. Really.

As a person who plays Necrons AND other armies, the space zombies need it.

Why? Because they have no badass melee units (wraiths are closest) and NO good CC characters.

None, natta, zipola.

they dont have a dragio, mephiston, a calgar or even something as good as the terrible tyranid prime.

They got jack and diddly, and jack left town.

The MSS are their way of making a strong CC hq choice.

Is it incredibly annoying (yes). But so is fighting any of the really nasty named guys I mentioned.

Anyway, I would be fine to see MSS go away...if the crons got some decent CC units...maybe what the lychguard or flayed ones are supposed to be.

You do realize that with MSS and a Warscythe, a base Necron Overlord is a match even for massive beatsticks like Abbadon and Lysander, right? People need to get over this notion that Necrons can't hang in assault. Against top teir assault armies (namely Daemons or Nids), sure, they will likely get wiped out, but against everybody else, Necrons can easily hold their own. As it is, Necrons have so many deterents against assault them, its absurd. Lightning shields, AP2 flamer crypteks, tesla (oh, each successful snapfire is 3 hits), and MSS just makes it not even worth the trouble to try and assault them. Throw in the fact that GW refuses to FAQ Sweeping Advance vs Everliving, and I dare say Necrons have little to fear from most armies' assaulting them.

There will not be mss and a warscythe in every necron unit. Yes, every generic overlord and destroyer lord can take that for a small cost. However just throwing lords and flamers into every unit require multiple courts and gets very expensive and takes away high strength shooting for not taking harbringers of destruction. Yes, you will have to bring actual CC units to deal with warscythes and mss, and even then they are not pushovers.

MSS may be annoying, but I actually do not think they are unfair even if they are good. Either swamp the unit in bodies and make someone other than abbadon take the challenge and break the unit or gun it down, just assaulting it with whatever is not viable though. Not even other dedicated CC units can count on just murdering an overlord. I do not get why people feel entitled to be able to simply charge and mow down a medium ranged army with whatever while suffering little to no losses just because everything hits at low initiative.

That's been retconned.

C'tan are now slaves to the necrons.
Pariahs are gone, apparently. Wiped out from the lore

Flayed Ones are the result of a C'tan curse, not a blessing.

No it hasn't - the C'Tan still existed, and they still had an effect even if its no longer on-going. Orpheus shows us that things such as the Flayer virus have warped the entire Dynasty.
Likewise, when free, the Necrons may simply be utilizing the technology and tactics they were most used to. It's not like they all randomly got together and standardized things.

Pariahs were not wiped from fluff, they were simply not mentioned - this has been discussed.

I'm well aware that Flayed Ones exist due to a certain Dynasty popping their Big Brother, but, it proves a point. Even if we want to pretend that all the Dynasties magically homogenized after killing their Gods - despite evidence to the contrary - C'Tan ARE able to inflict chronic conditions on their followers. I'm sure there are other possibilities of this occurring that "death". In which case, a lot of C'Tan died. Come up with something fancy.

Ratflinger wrote:
I do not get why people feel entitled to be able to simply charge and mow down a medium ranged army with whatever while suffering little to no losses just because everything hits at low initiative.

That is supposed to be the armies weakness!

Necrons are supposed to be the inexorable tide. Tough as nails with incredible strength. Their weakness is hitting them hard and fast. MSS take the major weakness of the army, high I powerful melee, and largely invalidates it. You keep saying hordes are the answer, when it has been presented repeatedly that tesla and a number of other options in the Cron dex largely mitigate the impact of hordes.

Additionally, the issue is not EVERY unit having MSS, it is the units that do. Those units become problems with no answer. Problems with no answer make for unfun scenarios. Unfun scenarios make unfun games.

Take Tyranids. Their weakness has always been synapse. Remove the synapse and you take down the army. MSS for them would be eternal warrior and a 3+ fnp for a slight cost on synapse models.

But please, keep up the "l2p noobs" attitude. It really endears you to us.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


That's been retconned.

Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.

There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.

I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.

 Arrias117 wrote:

Ratflinger wrote:
I do not get why people feel entitled to be able to simply charge and mow down a medium ranged army with whatever while suffering little to no losses just because everything hits at low initiative.

But please, keep up the "l2p noobs" attitude. It really endears you to us.

That is not really what I said. The necron player will have to move up close enough to be threatened by assault units, and for the entire army to fall over when assaulted is not reasonable. Hitting individual units very hard and forcing leadership tests is reasonable, just assaulting with whatever and getting off scot free is not.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.

I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.

Precisely. Good post.

What do people think about the current power level of Necrons? Are they overpowered? Are they underpowered? Are they right where they should be?

Obviously, the opinion about overall power level bears upon wishlisting.

I think they are right where they should be.

They have the power as a singular codex to be barely competitive at the top levels without any resort to broken/unfair combos or force multipliers and without ruining anyone else's party. Codexes that are more powerful should probably be nerfed down to the necron level, or at least nerfed downward with some reference to the necron/space marine level as a good balancing point. Also, I think whatever nerfs they get in newer editions of the codex should be compensated by buffs elsewhere and vice versa.

I don't mind if they want to nerf wraiths and MSS and buff praetorians or destroyers as a replacement. Just hit the same power level and balance, please. The necron codex is a codex that hits the sweet spot, and it should be recognized as such, in my opinion.

I find necrons are really good but not quit op, but if they encounter vehicle(mech) armies than they do become op, but with 6th edition few armies do mech. They are great counters to most armies that rely on mech but suffer to MC(unless in assault), and are decent at everything else, if they had a slight nerf to their ability to kill vehicles and a slight points decrease across the board (other than Mss/war scythes, flyers, and their dedicated transports). (ps the quantum shield is worth its weight in gold in a edition that prioritizes strength 6/7 shooting. (trust me i spent turns trying to bring one down with my army and I just don't have the luck to do it. (str 9 ap 1 lance shots x2 and multiple meltas and still pop 1-2 by the end of the game at max.) BUt over all they are great as said, it would be great if all the rules got clarified.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


That's been retconned.

Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.

You mean the Mary Sue'tan fluff with the 'Metal Tyranid' hordes that will purge the galaxy by removing all thought, and order to purge the Warp?

Matt wards may be slightly meh in area's, but the fluff is still far better then the crap that was the Necrons 'Never lose no matter what despite even TYRANIDS having some sort of losses'

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


That's been retconned.

Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.

You mean the Mary Sue'tan fluff with the 'Metal Tyranid' hordes that will purge the galaxy by removing all thought, and order to purge the Warp?

Matt wards may be slightly meh in area's, but the fluff is still far better then the crap that was the Necrons 'Never lose no matter what despite even TYRANIDS having some sort of losses'

Only in your opinion.

pm713 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


That's been retconned.

Depends on whether you refer to TruCron fluff or the crap Matt Ward came up with. Your choice.

You mean the Mary Sue'tan fluff with the 'Metal Tyranid' hordes that will purge the galaxy by removing all thought, and order to purge the Warp?

Matt wards may be slightly meh in area's, but the fluff is still far better then the crap that was the Necrons 'Never lose no matter what despite even TYRANIDS having some sort of losses'

Only in your opinion.

Really, is that your only comment? It's in everyone's opinion, kinda redundant to point that out.

I'm not bothered by the new Necron fluff, but a the idea of a Terminator army is way cooler than an Eccentric Space Pharoah army.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.

I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.

Precisely. Good post.

Well unless you play chaos or the neuron lord declares a challenge

Face it, MSS are too good along with the warscythe, aircrons, and wraiths. That said, although the neuron codex has surprisingly lived well, it has its duds. So I have to ask. How does everyone think Flayed Ones to be improved. They certainly won't get turn 1 assaults so the question becomes what else and, preferably, something fluffy. I had a plain one of only snap fires but I don't really think that fits them too well.

As per fluff. Tough one. Old fluff was underdeveloped and bad. Necrons were Egyptian terminators that followed extremely mighty space creatures that are stars that existed in game. Honestly, I'm going to say I didn't like the true C'tan in games. That felt more like Apoc and even then "gods" being deployed felt like too much. Another problem was C'tan were basically behind everything and the cause of everything which was getting annoying. Along with that, they became metal nids. An army of no emotions harvesting and conception ally perhaps a bit too strong fluff wise. Still, they had a lovecraftian horror feel to them. Then newcron fluff hit. I got nothing on this. On the one hand, C'tan aren't the schemers of everything and seeing shards on the field makes more sense and they managed to remove the self from the metal nid feel. At the same time, they gained more population, star destroying inventions, and ludicrous extra strength making them more numerous and strong. Finally, there is the necrom brofist scene. If anything, I'd at least like fluff of some dynasties that are still truly slaves of their C'tan that are working to put it back together. Also please return Pariahs.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
There is an answer.
Place more than the beatstick character in base contact with the MSS bearer, or keep him out of base contact and kill the underlings to get CC resolution.
Besides, it wasn't so much high initiative melee units that are the necrons, but rather sweep. MSS does not protect against that, and even if it did take out the IC, it's still completely possible to force that sweep test on them.
It only affects 1 model after all.

I admit though that the damage effect is a bit excessive. That is not needed.

Precisely. Good post.

Well unless you play chaos or the neuron lord declares a challenge

Face it, MSS are too good along with the warscythe, aircrons, and wraiths. That said, although the neuron codex has surprisingly lived well, it has its duds. So I have to ask. How does everyone think Flayed Ones to be improved. They certainly won't get turn 1 assaults so the question becomes what else and, preferably, something fluffy. I had a plain one of only snap fires but I don't really think that fits them too well.

Well lets see, they are obviously getting fear because of the whole 'draped in human skin'

I'd say the matter becomes one of whether or not that should buff them, they should get the flensing scarabs and gain Shred, slightly cheaper cost, and maybe buffed up S5, with maybe AP4/AP3 claws as a buyable option for the squad.

Or maybe the flayer virus 'mutates' their body a bit and they become T5 and gain a 4++ from an advanced stage of the C'tan flayer virus mutating their bodies beyond normal.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Face it, MSS are too good along with the warscythe, aircrons, and wraiths. That said, although the neuron codex has surprisingly lived well, it has its duds. So I have to ask. How does everyone think Flayed Ones to be improved. They certainly won't get turn 1 assaults so the question becomes what else and, preferably, something fluffy. I had a plain one of only snap fires but I don't really think that fits them too well.

Shred, for starters

After reading on the thread I'm hearing a lot of crying of that Necron players "need" MSS.

No. you don't.

Its an option you can take not something that comes as standard in Wargear, its not forced upon you.

The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.

That being said if MSS were to be taken out I would want to see praetorians getting a buff in the form of a better RP and Flayed ones to get shred, fear, AP 3 (if they don't already have it) shrouded, and can only snap fire at minimum composed units, with maybe a 4+ or 3+ RP.

And Lychguard should have 2+ Sv for their points costs.

 happygolucky wrote:
The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.

Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.

 jasper76 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.

Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.

Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

 happygolucky wrote:
what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

Oh yeah, EVERY time I've successfully pulled off MSS, I get a sour face from my opponent. Then I think about the 3 Imperial Knights he had no problem ramming down my throat, or this or that spam list, or some ungodly tank out of the Escalation book, and I don't feel too bad about using something like MSS.

 jasper76 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

Oh yeah, EVERY time I've successfully pulled off MSS, I get a sour face from my opponent. Then I think about the 3 Imperial Knights he had no problem ramming down my throat, or this or that spam list, or some ungodly tank out of the Escalation book, and I don't feel too bad about using something like MSS.

And then I remember Necron's have one of the best Escalation units in the Transcendent C'tan, so I somewhat think the same thing.

 jasper76 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

Oh yeah, EVERY time I've successfully pulled off MSS, I get a sour face from my opponent. Then I think about the 3 Imperial Knights he had no problem ramming down my throat, or this or that spam list, or some ungodly tank out of the Escalation book, and I don't feel too bad about using something like MSS.

So basically your blowing a lot out of proportion to justify MSS?

Okay then. I did say that it the CC armies were for people who were in for a fun time in my post.

If your opponents are shoving 3 Knights and Escalation down your throat during non-tournament games, maybe you should have a word and ask them not too?

I'm not sure I'm blowing things out of proportion...I'm not trying to. Just pointing out that in the current overall 40k meta, MSS isn't on anyone's radar that I know personally as an OP option.

As for the 3 Knights...that's only happened once. My friend who did it will 99% likely not throw it at me again, because he could tell it was pretty damn nasty for a friendly game.

 jasper76 wrote:
I'm not sure I'm blowing things out of proportion...I'm not trying to. Just pointing out that in the current overall 40k meta, MSS isn't on anyone's radar that I know personally as an OP option.

As for the 3 Knights...that's only happened once. My friend who did it will 99% likely not throw it at me again, because he could tell it was pretty damn nasty for a friendly game.

To be fair, that's because almost nobody takes beatsticks or even melee units anymore. The only real ones in competitive are... extremely kitted out DPs, a boomstick LoC although they usually stick to buffing spells and shooting spells... Ummm... the screamerstar can do it well? Granted that army is messy and the weapon not really worth it as 2++ rerollable saves make it basically worthless, seerstar much the same, granted both of these can also deploy excessive amounts of firepower so I can't even say it is close combat more that such a thing is the finishing perk. I really got nothing. The problem comes down to the MSS being a cheap underhanded weapon that always makes people annoyed. Especially Chaos Space Marine players or armies that have to declare/accept challenges no matter the odds. It's an anti-fun weapon that outmodes models that are already considered sub par. It makes a crummy assault unit that specializes in buffing and the sorts into a beast that can beat any enemy and invalidates their attacks for turns whilst you get free shots. Simply put, it's not entertaining and far too good. It needs to either be changed in some way or kicked for good.

Also seems like he did have some problems after the fact.

So then, there's going to be new models released. What does everyone thing it shall be?

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's an anti-fun weapon that outmodes models that are already considered sub par. It makes a crummy assault unit that specializes in buffing and the sorts into a beast that can beat any enemy and invalidates their attacks for turns whilst you get free shots. Simply put, it's not entertaining and far too good. It needs to either be changed in some way or kicked for good.

Its fun to play with. If the standard you're judging it by is tournament-based, I can understand your point, but IMO I don't want to see it go at all...I could swallow a points increase, but I dont want one of those either!

 StarTrotter wrote:
So then, there's going to be new models released. What does everyone thing it shall be?

It would be cool if you could build an entire FOC of Canoptek units...no RP.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options

2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"

3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"

4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"

5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."

IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.

 happygolucky wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.

Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.

Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

MSS is trivial to get around even for assault oriented armies- all you have to do is make sure the assault starts on your turn (should be pretty easy for an assault army) and that no high value model is in base contact with the MSS user (just "sacrifice" the lowest value model in your squad to block off the MSS user, or better yet, just don't move anyone into base contact with him). This being your turn, you get to decide at which order MSS/challenge declarations are resolved meaning you can have the MSS go off before challenges are declared.

Even single model units should be able to pull it off without too much trouble (I should know, a Daemon Prince squashed my overlord this way a while back).

And do note that having the assault take place in your turn is only important if you have an IC that must accept challenges, otherwise you can simply refuse or sacrifice a sergeant or somesuch to avoid the risk of having your beatstick turn on you.

 Galorian wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options

2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"

3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"

4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"

5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."

IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.

The codex repeatedly refers to them as body guards and emissaries.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Galorian wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options

2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"

3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"

4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"

5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."

IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.

The codex repeatedly refers to them as body guards and emissaries.

When dealing with other Necrons and their court intrigues, sure. On the battlefield against inferior races? Not so much.

[EDIT]

Re-read the fluff, I was only half right- they do protect Necron Lords in battle but are also sent into the fray without them in order to serve as lieutenants in situations where the Dynasty does not wish to risk its higher ranking nobles.