Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 jasper76 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
It's an anti-fun weapon that outmodes models that are already considered sub par. It makes a crummy assault unit that specializes in buffing and the sorts into a beast that can beat any enemy and invalidates their attacks for turns whilst you get free shots. Simply put, it's not entertaining and far too good. It needs to either be changed in some way or kicked for good.

Its fun to play with. If the standard you're judging it by is tournament-based, I can understand your point, but IMO I don't want to see it go at all...I could swallow a points increase, but I dont want one of those either!

 StarTrotter wrote:
So then, there's going to be new models released. What does everyone thing it shall be?

It would be cool if you could build an entire FOC of Canoptek units...no RP.

As fun as me deploying 3 wraithknights against your army or a flyerspam. Which, for me, is actually rather unappealing. I actually shelved my heldrake after two games because I just.... no. It wasn't fun for my friend and it wasn't fun for me. And I'm actually heavily casual. The closest I get to competitive is..... I'll play with a few obliterators and will usually limit my number of mutilators to 0-1 (granted I just honestly don't like the model either). I'd prefer it not to go all the way. It just needs different rules in my personal opinion. Heck, it reducing the initiative of the unit and making him not capable of attacking or something would be entertaining. The biggest problem is that even individuals with a ld of 10 will be hitting them-self 50% of the time and it is worse with units with worse leadership. As per tournaments, it doesn't really mean much because, at the moment, CC just isn't worth it.

I kinda like your Canoptek thing. I'd probably get one lord and have him walking around with his "circus of pets."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galorian wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
1) Swap their default loadout around. A bodyguard and defensive unit should start with defensive options

2) Change their wargear options to "any C'tan in the squad may replace his shield and hyperphase sword with a warscythe at +5 pts per model"

3) Add this option - "A lychguard that has taken a warscythe may buy sempiternal weave at +15 points per model"

4) Add this rule - Sworn to Protect "A unit of Lychguard becomes stubborn when an Overlord joins the unit. In addition, if the Overlord has the phaeron upgrade, they gain Fearless"

5) Add this rule - Champion of the Hierarchy "If any character models are in a unit of Lychguard who has been locked in combat, a Lychguard model may choose to accept a challenge instead of a character model. The character model may fight normally, without any penalty for delegating the challenge to an underling. Note that the Lychguard may not make challenges - that honor goes to their superiors."

IIRC in the Lychguard's own fluff it was stated that the Lords and Overlords, being rather powerful by their own right, don't really need them so they usually go off independently on the battlefield.

 happygolucky wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.

Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.

Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

MSS is trivial to get around even for assault oriented armies- all you have to do is make sure the assault starts on your turn (should be pretty easy for an assault army) and that no high value model is in base contact with the MSS user (just "sacrifice" the lowest value model in your squad to block off the MSS user, or better yet, just don't move anyone into base contact with him). This being your turn, you get to decide at which order MSS/challenge declarations are resolved meaning you can have the MSS go off before challenges are declared.

Even single model units should be able to pull it off without too much trouble (I should know, a Daemon Prince squashed my overlord this way a while back).

And do note that having the assault take place in your turn is only important if you have an IC that must accept challenges, otherwise you can simply refuse or sacrifice a sergeant or somesuch to avoid the risk of having your beatstick turn on you.

Not quite that easy. It gets harder for elite melee armies, as an example. It also is a problem due to the challenges which automatically put you into base to base contact. This is further made a problem by the Skulltaker, MC, CSM, BT, and I think there's one other SM FW chapter that either must declare/accept challenges or, as they are only a single model, must or else they won't be capable of attacking at all.

Okay wait. how does the MSS/challenge thing function? Because at this point I'm really struggling to get how it functions. My friend always used it in challenges no matter what. Also, if the unit somehow lives a turn you can then have your beatstick forced into a challenge. It wasn't against Necrons, but I can never forget a game I had against Nids. It was a MC and he was going to charge. I let loose a flury of bolter guns before charging the beast. I accepted a challenge and he eventually died. Well guess what, my Chaos Lord then had to accept its challenge and we sat there as he constantly passed his 4++ invuln out of sheer luck. Believe me, that stupid rule really can screw armies over.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I kinda like your Canoptek thing. I'd probably get one lord and have him walking around with his "circus of pets."

They could give Illumanor Szeras a good update as a Cryptek HQ for something like this. Maybe change Mechanical Augmentation to effect any Canoptek unit, and just change the stat bonuses to +1T, +1BS, or +1S

here could be some kinda dirt cheap troop option like the other codexes have...a Canoptek Automotons or some gak with weak stats and no RP for 4-6p...like cultist/gaunt stats but Init 2

Get some kinda Elite crawler similar to that FW model but smaller scale, comes in 3s or something. And that FW model could be a HS choice, maybe??

 StarTrotter wrote:
Okay wait. how does the MSS/challenge thing function? Because at this point I'm really struggling to get how it functions. My friend always used it in challenges no matter what.

MSS and challenges happen at the same time. This means whoever's turn it is gets to decide which happens first. A smart player will attempt to ensure that the MSS bearer will only be in contact with expendable models on his turn so he can make MSS go off first, so only a relatively weak model can be affected by it. Then when the challenge happens, the beatstick is still available to try and destroy the MSS bearer, or better yet, an expendable sgt type character is thrown against the mss bearer while the beatstick character wrecks havoc on the unit.

Granted this is not always an option with every list, but mass attacks from non-elite CC units work pretty well also. Failing all that, throw a tarpit or two against it, and focus on the rest of the army.

That's why I think making it a 1-per army artifact is the best solution. It still gives the necrons a counter to single massive beatstick characters, but multiple ways to counter the counter are available. When you have to deal with multiple MSS bearers on the field, it becomes much more difficult to deal with it.

 Maelstrom808 wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
Okay wait. how does the MSS/challenge thing function? Because at this point I'm really struggling to get how it functions. My friend always used it in challenges no matter what.

MSS and challenges happen at the same time. This means whoever's turn it is gets to decide which happens first. A smart player will attempt to ensure that the MSS bearer will only be in contact with expendable models on his turn so he can make MSS go off first, so only a relatively weak model can be affected by it. Then when the challenge happens, the beatstick is still available to try and destroy the MSS bearer, or better yet, an expendable sgt type character is thrown against the mss bearer while the beatstick character wrecks havoc on the unit.

Granted this is not always an option with every list, but mass attacks from non-elite CC units work pretty well also. Failing all that, throw a tarpit or two against it, and focus on the rest of the army.

That's why I think making it a 1-per army artifact is the best solution. It still gives the necrons a counter to single massive beatstick characters, but multiple ways to counter the counter are available. When you have to deal with multiple MSS bearers on the field, it becomes much more difficult to deal with it.

I'd be fine with a single MSS for sure.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Well lets see, they are obviously getting fear because of the whole 'draped in human skin'

I'd say the matter becomes one of whether or not that should buff them, they should get the flensing scarabs and gain Shred, slightly cheaper cost, and maybe buffed up S5, with maybe AP4/AP3 claws as a buyable option for the squad.

Or maybe the flayer virus 'mutates' their body a bit and they become T5 and gain a 4++ from an advanced stage of the C'tan flayer virus mutating their bodies beyond normal.

Giving them Fear is purely cosmetic and doesn't account for balance changes as Fear as a rule itself is darn useless. I'd say that the changes made for FO in the FW army book with the weird name are exactly what should be done: moved to Core, granted Rending.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:


Well lets see, they are obviously getting fear because of the whole 'draped in human skin'

I'd say the matter becomes one of whether or not that should buff them, they should get the flensing scarabs and gain Shred, slightly cheaper cost, and maybe buffed up S5, with maybe AP4/AP3 claws as a buyable option for the squad.

Or maybe the flayer virus 'mutates' their body a bit and they become T5 and gain a 4++ from an advanced stage of the C'tan flayer virus mutating their bodies beyond normal.

Giving them Fear is purely cosmetic and doesn't account for balance changes as Fear as a rule itself is darn useless. I'd say that the changes made for FO in the FW army book with the weird name are exactly what should be done: moved to Core, granted Rending.

Considering how fear was handed out for free in a new supplement, I almost feel like GW might even be realizing how worthless it is.

GW realizing mistakes? Not on my watch

 Sigvatr wrote:
GW realizing mistakes? Not on my watch

Oh don't worry it'll just take until they release another SM codex or Necron codex and make one of the special rules Fear as a random warlord trait to fix that all right up.

Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.

It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.

 Kain wrote:
Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.

It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.

You mean the Daemon Engines which simply repair themselves by devouring things on the field (fluff) and it reconstitutes itself back into their body via the warp.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.

It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.

You mean the Daemon Engines which simply repair themselves by devouring things on the field (fluff) and it reconstitutes itself back into their body via the warp.

Well yes that does make sense but I don't think the Iron Hands get their wolverine powers explained.

If I'm not wrong IWND means that their wounds are healing nearly as fast as they can be made, much like the hulk or wolverine.

 Kain wrote:
Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.

It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.

Technically, the regenerative nature of living metal is already represented by the RP/EL rules.
I suppose vehicles and canopteks could have IWND, but that may be nuts.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Necron fluff is pretty much begging for more units with IWND. Heck, given the wolverine esque regenerative abilities repeatedly shown by Necrons I don't think any army is better suited to have units with IWND.

It'd certainly make more fluff sense than Daemon Engines and the Iron Hands patching themselves up via voodoo.

Technically, the regenerative nature of living metal is already represented by the RP/EL rules.
I suppose vehicles and canopteks could have IWND, but that may be nuts.

There are many cases of Necrons healing even as they're getting smashed up.

I think it'd make for a good upgrade on Lords or Vehicles.

In any case, the Iron Hands get IWND for free on every vehicle and multiwound model and it hasn't destroyed the Meta.

Well, Iron Hands aren't particularly common; I don't see quite that many IH lists.

But yes, Overlords would have superior, Terminator 2-esque self-repair mechanisms, that could be represented by IWND.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Well, Iron Hands aren't particularly common; I don't see quite that many IH lists.

But yes, Overlords would have superior, Terminator 2-esque self-repair mechanisms, that could be represented by IWND.

Iron Hands are generally thought of as the second best chapter tactic, surpassed only by White Scars bikers.

For Siege Assault vanguard list, Iron hands become even better as your enemy is now obliged to choke on more vehicles than he has anti tank weapons.

Huh, well, that says something about my local meta then.
Then again, it's mostly WHFB there, so it may be an outlier.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Huh, well, that says something about my local meta then.
Then again, it's mostly WHFB there, so it may be an outlier.

The bit about the Iron Hands that's most loved is the Clan Raukaan beatstick.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Chapter_Master_Smashfucker

75% of your daily reasons to take MSS.

Holy C'tan. What is this thing :O

 Sigvatr wrote:
Holy C'tan. What is this thing :O

One of the most ludicrously potent generic HQ beat-sticks to grace the game in years.

And he's on a bike so don't think you can avoid him either.

And the depressing thing is that he can easily kill a Heirodule scything Biotitan in assault for half the points.

A death star involves allying Smashfether into a list with lesser versions of himself such as Smashbane (termed the Smash bros).

And people wonder why we want MSS...

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And people wonder why we want MSS...

Yeah a Smash brothers CCS bike death star can ruin your whole day; and with grav guns they can shoot you to pieces too.

MSS or Death Rays are basically a Necron List's best hope of stopping the Smashstar.

I ran some numbers and this star can actually eat through a Heirophant. It is not to be taken lightly.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And people wonder why we want MSS...

Could my CSM have them as well then? They could be warp scarabs controlled by thousand sons.

Bah, you have psychic powers and Abbadon.
Don't chaos have access to biomancy?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Bah, you have psychic powers.
Don't chaos have access to biomancy?

Yes, they do.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Bah, you have psychic powers and Abbadon.
Don't chaos have access to biomancy?

Abbadon which requires a vehicular investment that's overpriced and in some meta will explode long before reaching it.

Biomancy isn't taken on sorcerers (too squishy), and DP's are overpriced since they require the black mace, and it's still a crapshoot.

(Now if only we still had Chaos Lords that weren't chapter masters and could become Sorcerer Lords again. )

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And people wonder why we want MSS...

Could my CSM have them as well then? They could be warp scarabs controlled by thousand sons.

You get our MSS, we get your Helldrakes. Deal?

 Sigvatr wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
And people wonder why we want MSS...

Could my CSM have them as well then? They could be warp scarabs controlled by thousand sons.

You get our MSS, we get your Helldrakes. Deal?

Why do you even want them, you can go full flying circus with necrons scythes and eat them out of the air.

I suppose you'd want it for MEQ removal, but then you have annihilators.. Hmm.

Hold on, I just remembered.
CSM (not demons) are Allies of Convenience with Necrons.

So yes, you may have MSS, and we may have heldrakes

Statistically speaking, on average an anni barge will remove 1.4 MEQs per turn.

A heldrake, if I inputted the data correctly into mathhammer, removes 3.33 MEQs a turn (assuming the template covers 4 marines).

I don't think MSS should be what people are fixating on about the Necron codex.

Does MSS ruin any army's picnic? No.

Do armies have a way of playing around/nullifying the potency of MSS? Yes.

All codexes have awesome deals. What is important is that those awesome deals don't detract from the balance of the game as a whole (compare MSS to Tau's ability to abuse overwatch)


CronAir lists do seem to ruin some army's picnic. Are Aegis Defense Lines enough to keep them in check? I don't think necessarily anything needs to be done in particular to Night Scythes. I think flyers in general should be nerfed a little. They are too survivable by virtue of just being flyers. Helldrakes vs troops should not be as one-sided a match-up as it is.

 Galorian wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:

 happygolucky wrote:
The fact is you want it, and because most people take it for its cheap costs its been taken as a crutch unit.

Meh...MSS is a gimmick (a very good gimmick). Once a particular opponent gets hurt by it once, the jig is up. They'll see it coming a mile away next game and prepare accordingly.

Whilst I agree in terms of competitiveness, what about the people who like CC armies and Units like KB or Orks or Warbosses and Lords? the people who have themed armies who just want to be in for a fun time getting into CC? Suddenly having your mighty CSM Lord who has survived for 10,000 years or the Warboss who started out as a boy and smashed his way through the ranks to get where he is now (which I think would take a really long time) get a microchip and starts hitting himself in the face ready to get killed by the warscythe is extreme, once maybe funny, over and over again is tedious, boring and unfun to play against.

The only reason MSS exists is because its an anti-MC/CC/deathstar counter during competitive games, anything else is just to flip your middle digit at your opponent.

MSS is trivial to get around even for assault oriented armies- all you have to do is make sure the assault starts on your turn (should be pretty easy for an assault army) and that no high value model is in base contact with the MSS user (just "sacrifice" the lowest value model in your squad to block off the MSS user, or better yet, just don't move anyone into base contact with him). This being your turn, you get to decide at which order MSS/challenge declarations are resolved meaning you can have the MSS go off before challenges are declared.

Even single model units should be able to pull it off without too much trouble (I should know, a Daemon Prince squashed my overlord this way a while back).

And do note that having the assault take place in your turn is only important if you have an IC that must accept challenges, otherwise you can simply refuse or sacrifice a sergeant or somesuch to avoid the risk of having your beatstick turn on you.

Whilst I respect this I do have to agree with StarTrotters reply and the fact the Champion of Chaos rule means that if I had a lord and a champ in the same unit in CC, it means that both have to declare a challenge at the same time and then my opponent gets to pick who to accept, which is usually the Lord then he gets a microchip to the face meaning that my opponents farming Slay The Warlord..

Obviously if I am playing challenges wrong then feel free to correct me, as I would love to shove a champ into my opponents face and let my Lord get some reaping done before the next round..