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I'm a believer of MSS being the entire reason Crons will have to wait for an all new codex.

Right now as a Cron player, all I have to do is throw cheap 65 points MSS Lord from a Royal Court into any unit I have and they have the BEST deterrent for assaults from special characters in game.

Daemon Princes, MCs and high cost HQs become completely useless in melee when all you have to do is force them to hit themselves while you get free whacks with a Warcythe.

Crons right now suffer from an overloaded Dex with under costed units. They perform extremely well when played properly and not much outside the top builds can compete with their survivability. Not much can also deal with their MSS melee deterrent (as stated above)

The only real saving grace is their low Initiative. But as a Cron player myself, this rarely stops me from getting the job done.

What I would personally change in an updated dex?

MSS :Nominate a model carrying Mind Shackle Scarabs to be using this ability, and select 1 model in base to base with the holder of Mind Shackle Scarabs. A model in base to base contact with a model with Mind Shackle Scarabs must take a Leadership Test on 3D6. If the test is failed, that model must reduce it's attacks by 1 and suffer a hit at it's own unmodified strength ignoring armor saves. (Use NO special rules governed by that models special weapons or rules, such as instant death or double strength smash attacks)

Point cost gets reduced to 10.

Allow Necron units to have Crypteks become upgraded Warrior / Immortal / ect models from their group. They come mandatory in each group much like current CSM forced to pay for champions.

Monoliths should simply avoid Deepstrike mishaps, but cannot fire their Particle Whip during the turn they DO deepstrike.

Flayed Ones should have T5 and 2+ 5++ and the turn they deepstrike should cause an automatic fear test to enemies withing 12" of the unit at -2 Ld and pin them for the duration should they fail.

Wraiths should simply have their Wounds cut to 1 and have their Strength cut to 5. Rending shouldn't exist on these glorious buggers for their amazing worth already.

Tomb Blades should enately have a 3+ and Shrouded instead of Shadowloom. These guys are amazing but so much holds them back in terms of functionality due to the army being enately slow as molasses.

Praetorians aside from actually needing proper models, should have their Covenant Rods act as Melta gun with 12" range. Act as a power weapon (AP3) in CC. They just NEED to become functional.

Warscythes need to be reverted simply due to over-functionality... I don't know why these were buffed to the point of being the solely best CCW in game. From a cron perspective, a warscythe is a chainfist that is AP1 and strikes at I2 for no reason other than Arnold Schwarzenegger wanabe's say so.

These are the things I'd want changed as a Cron player.

I am surprised at all the posts that seem to want to nerf Necrons. Necrons are currently enjoying a relatively internally balanced codex and they have just enough power to be a contender on the uber-competitive scene. They are probably ranked fifth right now after Eldar, Tau, Chaos Demons, and Space Marines in terms of power.

Part of what makes Necrons Necrons is that they punish certain aspects of the meta.

1) They punish Mechanized armies. So I would be careful about any ideas about nerfing Scarab raison d'etre ("reason for being who they are")

2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.

Necrons capacity to punish players who over-invest in Mech or who over-invest in Individual Models is a good thing. It really is!!

The Necron codex does seem to lack a bit in terms of diversity. There is a clear divide as far as what are useable choices and what are jank choices. The best decks are basically cramming as many wraiths, barges, and night scythes as one can into a list. I would like the jank choices to be buffed to the point where they could be viable choices in certain contexts. And, I am perfectly fine with throttling the current top runners (wraith, barges, night scythes) as long as it doesn't compromise on that good internal balance that enables pure Necrons to compete at the uber-competitive level. But, to reiterate, I think the Necrons are at a sweet spot here in terms of power and balance.

So I would like Destroyers survivability to be buffed to the point where they are playable. Maybe 2+ armor save and/or +1 Wound??

The Doomsday Ark should be able to move and shoot its big gun.

And the Monolith should be buffed to the point where it is playable. Specifically, I think it should have the ability to deep strike without mishap (ie push non-impenetrable models aside when it deep strkes). This would make the Monolith a mainstay of Necron tactics and open up a lot of diverse lines of play and a lot of fun games would ensue. Let's start seeing games where a Pyramid is plopped onto the table and stuff starts to spew out of it!

Wraiths may seem undercosted but I don't think they are. If a nerf is in order I think something should be buffed to take the place of Wraiths in winning lists. Wraiths enable charges against Tau gunlines. I would love Lychguard and Praetorians buffed to the point where they rival Wraiths in playability. If Praetorians and Lychguards are properly buffed, players could have the choice between fast and killy CC (wraiths), fast and nice shooty (Praetorians), and slow and extremely survivable (Lychguard).

Barges are legitimately undercosted though. Maybe you make them more expensive or you make Doomsday Arks or Stalkers or Spyders (with guns) cheaper. Obviously it depends on the great scheme of things. Some codexes get great deals on random stuff.

The only mechanic that I think is truly silly in some Necron lists is flyer spam. I don't think that is something you adress by nerfing Night Scythes specifically, however. I think the problem of flyers needs to be addressed more globally in the overall game. I think armies should be provided with the tools to fight flyers (via very accessible skyfire weapons) with some armies having to pay more or less based on fluff. I think the meta should have the tools it needs to be able to punish lists that spam too much flyers.

2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.

For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.

Punishing 'counter mechanics' aren't really that good or fun for the other play. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.

How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter. Otherwise the counter in itself isn't really worthwhile to keep.

col_impact wrote:
The only mechanic that I think is truly silly in some Necron lists is flyer spam. I don't think that is something you adress by nerfing Night Scythes specifically, however. I think the problem of flyers needs to be addressed more globally in the overall game. I think armies should be provided with the tools to fight flyers (via very accessible skyfire weapons) with some armies having to pay more or less based on fluff. I think the meta should have the tools it needs to be able to punish lists that spam too much flyers.

Actually, Night Scythes are problematic pretty specifically compared to other fliers. They are one of the "unholy trinity" of problem fliers- Night Scythe, Baledrake, and until recently, Vendetta gunship.
The Baledrake and Night Scythe are problems because they both get to ignore some of the balancing elements that are built into the flier rules.
Baledrake is AV12, can regenerate hull points, and has a built in 5+ save, meaning it never has to jink. It is far more durable than other fliers. It also has a weapon that ignores the need to hit, ignores cover, and ignores most armor, rules to be a 360" torrent weapon, giving it a massive area of threat while ignoring the need to face the target.

Night Scythes ignore many of the limitations of transports. They don't have to hover to disembark troops. They can deploy units within 6 inches with no scatter, no matter how fast they have moved. If they are destroyed, the unit inside goes into reserves with no harm done, instead of taking S10 AP2 hits on all models and seeing if any live. They also have a weapon that for some reason is statistically more likely to generate hits if the plane is forced to jink than it is firing at full ballistic value, making Jink not a tradeoff of firepower vs defense, but a straight boost. They are also dedicated transports, making it far easier to put large numbers in a list without having to compete for FA or HS slots.

Giving yet more tools to kill flier spam is going to only encourage flier-spam more, since a list that can deal with 4-6 fliers is going to obliterate any list that takes only 1-2 fliers, meaning that either fliers will be left out, or forced to spam to make sure some survive. Right now the flier balance is getting a lot better as codices are updated. It's just the two problem fliers I mentioned that throw things out of wack, giving a bad name to fliers in general.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.

For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.

Punishing is a pained mechanic that generally depends, and it's not really a good mechanic. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.

How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter.

The counter is simply a horde, who cares if you MSS a grot? Don't blame MSS if running hordes is no longer a viable strategy. It should be.

To clarify, I think the healthiest armies are those with points invested in MSU rather than IC or MC or FMC. MSS pushes armies to play MSU. This is a good thing!

col_impact wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.

For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.

Punishing is a pained mechanic that generally depends, and it's not really a good mechanic. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.

How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter.

The counter is simply a horde, who cares if you MSS a grot? Don't blame MSS if running hordes is no longer a viable strategy. It should be.

To clarify, I think the healthiest armies are those with points invested in MSU rather than IC or MC or FMC. MSS pushes armies to play MSU. This is a good thing!

Considering that Horde armies are meta dependent because they are too weak.

MSU is boring, bleh, and I had enough of it back in mech-hammer 5th edition where the goal was to spam as many razorbacks.

MSU armies aren't healthy, they are just boring bland lists usually dictated because of poor rules.

Not to mention necrons counter horde with Tesla, and Horde armies can't win in 6th due to rate of fire Wave Serpents.

I think the healthiest armies are those that are viable, healthy lists should be any sort of list that can work without being 100% ineffective at all.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Formosa wrote:Nightsythes are a dedicated flyer transport that's worth 100pts alone, add on the str7 tesla that's twin-linked and immunity to damage for any passengers, the ability to drop off said passengers anywhere you like pretty much and a large capacity...this all sounds like 180pts quite easily, now if we take away dedicated transport and immunity for passengers, add in hover mode and change the wormhole to be similar to the sky drop from valks/vens, so it either has to take a risk when dropping troops out or hover, then I can see it being around 150 or even 130.

They need to lose the "drop from flyer mode" ability, or go up in points. One or the other.

Except they can't hover. The Supersonic rule they have strictly forbids them from hovering. Half the challenge of using either Scythe is dealing with the rigid movement restrictions. (18" minimum movement a turn, 90 degree turns only)

That's why the gave Scythe Invasion Beam; so they still actually function as transports.

col_impact wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

2) They punish sinking lots of points into single models a la IC or MC. So I would be careful about nerfing Mindshackle Scarabs.

For 15 points, that you can take in nearly every unit you take.

Punishing is a pained mechanic that generally depends, and it's not really a good mechanic. Even MTG has been getting away from 'Counter' spells due to it being an UNFUN mechanic. It means you have to make things even more a specific way to counter the meta, and then it limits choices.

How many beatstick types are there, but can be punished by one simple thing that has no counter of it's own? If that's the case, there needs to be a mechanic for countering the counter.

The counter is simply a horde, who cares if you MSS a grot? Don't blame MSS if running hordes is no longer a viable strategy. It should be.

To clarify, I think the healthiest armies are those with points invested in MSU rather than IC or MC or FMC. MSS pushes armies to play MSU. This is a good thing!

Except, as stated, tesla and storm-teks invalidate hordes. Additionally, tell me what viable MSU I should take as Tyranids to deal with these? Currently, Tyranids rely heavily on MCs, FMCs, and horde support to function. Under your suggestion, I'm left with no viable options.

On top of that, you say it punishes sinking large amounts of points into beatstick characters, however you can build an overlord into a solid beatstick by sinking a large number of points into him. Why do you get that privilege if we don't?

Make deathmarks actually have interceptor on the turn they "counter deep strike"... I mean interception is in the rule name!

Where's the Necron love here? Beyond their strength on the table, I find everything about them fascinating. I enjoy nearly the entire model range, and hope the next 'dex expands upon that in an exciting way. Necron vehicles are some of my favorite amongst all of 40k, I'd love to see another.

I think deep strike protection for the Monolith would be excellent, as well as a reworking of the gate's attack profile. In addition, I'd like to see the particle whip improved in nastiness or given multiple profiles to choose from. The Monolith is supposed to be a fearsome element of Necron forces, heralding their implacable advance. It's missing the mark on that aspect.

Less nerf talk, more fun please.

 Thokt wrote:
Where's the Necron love here? Beyond their strength on the table, I find everything about them fascinating. I enjoy nearly the entire model range, and hope the next 'dex expands upon that in an exciting way. Necron vehicles are some of my favorite amongst all of 40k, I'd love to see another.

I think deep strike protection for the Monolith would be excellent, as well as a reworking of the gate's attack profile. In addition, I'd like to see the particle whip improved in nastiness or given multiple profiles to choose from. The Monolith is supposed to be a fearsome element of Necron forces, heralding their implacable advance. It's missing the mark on that aspect.

Less nerf talk, more fun please.

Trazyn gets a 2++ rerollable.

 Thokt wrote:
Where's the Necron love here? Beyond their strength on the table, I find everything about them fascinating. I enjoy nearly the entire model range, and hope the next 'dex expands upon that in an exciting way. Necron vehicles are some of my favorite amongst all of 40k, I'd love to see another.

I think deep strike protection for the Monolith would be excellent, as well as a reworking of the gate's attack profile. In addition, I'd like to see the particle whip improved in nastiness or given multiple profiles to choose from. The Monolith is supposed to be a fearsome element of Necron forces, heralding their implacable advance. It's missing the mark on that aspect.

Less nerf talk, more fun please.

Oh don't get me wrong I do love the Necrons as I love the model range, I just despise MSS with a passion as the damage output is too good and for me I know that even if it goes up in points people would spam it still, hence why I say either make it Warlord-Only or take it our completely.

I am also a AM/IG player who disliked Marbo as well, as for me he was an unfun element to play against so I never took him, and was glad he disappeared so its not just specialised Necron hate more "one hit wonder spam" criticism.

I think what I would like is some sort of giant walker that looks like an equivalent to a Dreadknight with a massive two handed warscythe and a giant cannon on its arm and it could be the "overlords champion" from something like a gladiatorial arena game (after all I assume the Nercontyr had some form of entertainment right?) and he fights in the name of his Overlord?

I think its hard coming up for and modifying the Necrons (apart from the obvious) as its hard to think up new things for a race that from a background standpoint has everything, from my perspective.

Yeah, I have to admit, suddenly giving a model 3 attacks when it should have 1 normally is pretty silly.
Honestly, I would just drop the damage part of it; stopping the affected model from attacking is sufficient.

As a Necron player I'd like:

--MSS to be reduced to a Ld Test on a 2D6 with a -2 modifier, only causing the affected model to be unable to attack for 20ish points
--Warscythes to be made Two-Handed without the +2 strength modifier, +1 at most (str 5/6 with armourbane is more than enough in most circumstances) with maybe a small points increase
--Viable weapons for characters besides the Warscythe
--Gauss changed to autio wound on a 6 with a +1 modifier to armour penetration rolls
--Some form of 'Phase Out' reintroduced, something like 'instead of falling back, models with this special rule are placed into reserves, all RP counters they may have had removed. If they were locked in combat the enemy unit may not perform a Sweeping Advance'. Gives us our weakness back (albeit in a less-strong way) while also giving us a small combat buff
--C'Tan returned to glory! (Honestly, they are terrible)
--Better Elites in general! (Flayed Ones are terrible, Lychguard and Praetorians are a notch above them)
--Monolith Deep Strike protection
--Point decrease for Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers
--Wraiths with a 3+/4++ and a points increase
--Point increase for Night Scythe and Anni Barge
--Spyders being able to take a resurrection orb bubble upgrade (for old time's sake)

Wow I guess I'm going to have to get a new army, if the necrons get nerfed as bad as some are predicting.

My only wish for crons went unheard the first time they re-released.

Tis but a simple request...

Terminator sized immortals! immortals should not be the same size as regular warriors, they should be at least terminator sized skeletons.

It's wishing, not predicting, and some wishes from other army's players just stem from being defeated by another army.

 Thokt wrote:
Thread title says it all? What would fellow Necron players like to see in the next 'dex?

My hopes:

1) A more functional Monolith.

2) A stronger push for non-metallic, ceramite paint schemes.

3) A new destroyer model. I am not of fan of the current centaur style model, it seems incredibly wacky considering the rest of the model range.

4) Long range artillery. It would be fantastic to have something a touch better than the Doomsday Ark.

Of course, GW will be entirely unpredictable in their efforts here - I just can't imagine a Necron monstrous creature model would suit.

>C'tan Shard buffed

>Destroyers buffed or made cheaper

>Flayed Ones completely revamped since right now they're just deep striking warriors without guns with +1 attacks

>Triarch Praetorians going back to the drawing board as 40 point jump infantry units are not worth it

>Lychgard buffed or made cheaper

>Orikan updated for 6th edition

>Writhing Worldscape updated for 6th edition

>Seismic crucible replaced or made more available in greater numbers (maximum 2 per 2k points makes them not worth it)

I really just want to see things in the codex made useful when they're presently not. I can't think of a scenario where flayed ones would be useful nor a scenario where imotekh's bloodswarm scrabs would be useful.

I would also like to see some of the character get a buff or two in certain areas. I can understand forgoing a phase shifter on them, but some of them not having sempiternal weave means you have to baby sit them while their abilities might not be worth babysitting them.

 Jaceevoke wrote:
Wow I guess I'm going to have to get a new army, if the necrons get nerfed as bad as some are predicting.

There's definitely been more talk of nerf than anything. A lot of it is complaining on the part of non-Necron players - but if I feel the level of outcry is a bit over the top. Necrons are not wrecking everyone's figurative shops.

It would be amazing if C'Tan got buffed back, I'd love to field one. Theoretically, they should be at least as powerful as a wraithknight or riptide. Otherwise, why wouldn't you just manufacture akin to the latter instead of the poor risk to reward relationship of holding shards of gods captive?

I'd also love to see immortals receive a bonus to the RP - they should get back up more often than warriors!

I'm not too hot on Phase- Out and don't expect to see anything based upon it re-introduced. I feel like it's a bit more of a fluff curveball to re-introduce that idea in an edition with very few fluff curveballs.

Immortals are already more resiliant than warriors with their 3+ saves. I suppose they could have their T5 back though; that's what separated them from warriors back in 3rd ed. Well, that and the fact they were elites with better guns.

If Immortals do get a buff to RP, then so would Overlords, praets and Lychguard, since those are higher "ranked."

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Immortals are already more resiliant than warriors with their 3+ saves. I suppose they could have their T5 back though; that's what separated them from warriors back in 3rd ed. Well, that and the fact they were elites with better guns.

If Immortals do get a buff to RP, then so would Overlords, praets and Lychguard, since those are higher "ranked."

I wouldn't say no to that; would mean I'd actually take Lychguard outside of for laughs.

Necrobat wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Immortals are already more resiliant than warriors with their 3+ saves. I suppose they could have their T5 back though; that's what separated them from warriors back in 3rd ed. Well, that and the fact they were elites with better guns.

If Immortals do get a buff to RP, then so would Overlords, praets and Lychguard, since those are higher "ranked."

I wouldn't say no to that; would mean I'd actually take Lychguard outside of for laughs.

Ai, the question is though how to go about it.
If immortals get a 4+ to their RP, then due to rank Overlords, Royal Court, Lychguards and Praets would have 3+. Which would become 2+ due to the orb.
Which is...silly.

I guess Orbs can provide rerolls instead, but still, it's a tad clunky.

Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.

"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."

Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.

Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.

Oh, MSS definitely do not need nerfs. The item itself is very powerful, but it's (almost) always placed on terrible melee units. It's easy to be dealt with by swarming the carrier or properly assaulting a unit instead of just blindly shoving your miniatures around. If you do, you deserve to get punished for playing bad. Furthermore, the lord with MSS usually stands in a unit of Necron Warriors or Immortals that horribly, horribly suck in melee. If it was possible to have MSS in a strong cc unit and use it effectively, it would be nerf-worthy, but right now, it's fine.

The exception to the rule is the Destroyer Lord, but since he does not allow you to take a Royal Court, that's fine as well and the price you pay for having a strong cc model.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.

"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."

Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.

Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.

Except that IMO MSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.

"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."

Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.

Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.

Except that IMO MSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.

Cute, an insult towards my playing style. I suppose I'll simply do what has been done entirely in this edition and simply continue with pure shooting armies, assault is gimped as it is.

It invalidates build styles entirely, so thus it's fine.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.

"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."

Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.

Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.

Except that IMO MSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.

Cute, an insult towards my playing style. I suppose I'll simply do what has been done entirely in this edition and simply continue with pure shooting armies, assault is gimped as it is.

It invalidates build styles entirely, so thus it's fine.

No insult towards your play style at all! Sorry that is how you took it, but it wasn't intended. What I was saying, since I didn't convey that very well (apologies btw) was that if it breaks your back then maybe try to avoid it, or engage it differently. As a BA player I feel your pain, but I have played many, many matches against MSS, and I'll tell you this: MSS is the LEAST of your worries against Crons as a melee army. Yes it is strong, but I honestly melee is very weak right now and you are calling out ONE ability that you don't like because it is a direct counter to your play style. Blood Angels players such as myself feel the same pain. MSS doesn't nerf play styles at all. Crons are a shooting army, thus they are strong against melee armies. Tau are the same. AM are up there too. It's tough times for CC armies, trust me I know. War Scythes in my opinion are far worse than MSS. Doomsday Arcs are far worse. Annihilation Barges, Flying Pastries, Command Barges, Wraiths. And you wanna hit MSS? Necrons just own CC armies...

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Murdius Maximus wrote:
Again, no reason to nerf MSS. If necrons "needed" nerfs then why don't they win all the time. You just have to handle them differently as is the case with each army. Besides, you want to nerf an army's highlights in the presence of lists that include three Riptides and wave serpents out the yin yang? Or lists that spam helldrakes? Necrons are where they should be IMO.

"Other codex's are overpowered, thus our balance is fine."

Yeah no that's not a good argument at all, everyone wants those to be balanced/nerfed in the appropriate area's as well, and the OP things of a codex will be fixed as well.

Should assault return to prominent domain in 6.5/7th/whatever, it'll kill builds, as it is MSS kills tyranids down hard due to their necessary reliance on FMC's.

Except that IMO MSS isn't OP. If you can't play around it, then perhaps you should think about what you blindly throw at it.

Cute, an insult towards my playing style. I suppose I'll simply do what has been done entirely in this edition and simply continue with pure shooting armies, assault is gimped as it is.

It invalidates build styles entirely, so thus it's fine.

No insult towards your play style at all! Sorry that is how you took it, but it wasn't intended. What I was saying, since I didn't convey that very well (apologies btw) was that if it breaks your back then maybe try to avoid it, or engage it differently. As a BA player I feel your pain, but I have played many, many matches against MSS, and I'll tell you this: MSS is the LEAST of your worries against Crons as a melee army. Yes it is strong, but I honestly melee is very weak right now and you are calling out ONE ability that you don't like because it is a direct counter to your play style. Blood Angels players such as myself feel the same pain. MSS doesn't nerf play styles at all. Crons are a shooting army, thus they are strong against melee armies. Tau are the same. AM are up there too. It's tough times for CC armies, trust me I know. War Scythes in my opinion are far worse than MSS. Doomsday Arcs are far worse. Annihilation Barges, Flying Pastries, Command Barges, Wraiths. And you wanna hit MSS? Necrons just own CC armies...

I don't actually run an assault based army (Slaanesh type, heavy noise, though I do run a slight assault based list for amusement at times), I just dislike aspects that kill certain play styles hard without a direct counter of it's own, it's a cheap 15 point item that can be taken in numbers to gimp armies that use weaponry on sarge/beatstick sort heroes, which usually give up benefits to the rest of the army in order to do it's task, it can force force weapons to activate in order to instant death and that is abominable.

The rest of those at the end can be balanced by costs, or various other measures of nerfs and balances, the MSS is the one that has no direct correlation, should Assault become stronger again it'll just be taken in numbers even if it hits 30 points, as it's measure is a direct shutdown of strong character models with unique weaponry.

The other thing I would concern myself with is the auto-hits on tesla, which cause massive issues for horde based armies, which is another issue I'd concern with.

As for a shooting army, they are not, they have a multi-tude of CC options that are just generally weak as a result of bad balance, with Wraiths proving strong as well, they should be a generalized army with an option for CC, MC, or other options as a result of their 'tech', which will get hopefully balanced out in a new edition.

I could complain about the rest of the issues that need to be buffed or nerfed, but my issue is mainly with the one thing that is a direct counter without any balance towards counterplay. As someone said, 2d6 with -2 to LD would be a fair choice as while it'd still hurt some armies (Tyranids, but what doesn't nowadays) , continuing with 3D6 is not. Something of that nature is what provokes my ire within an army...As well as badly balanced units that break a meta (Eldar )

Make MSS an artifact (1 per army), bump it's points by about 10, problem solved. A single MSS is easy to deal with for almost every army. As far as the rest of the book, wraiths are about the only thing that needs anything more than a small points increase to get them balanced.

Nightscythes and annibarges could use 20-30 point increases in cost. Warriors and immortals could get bumped up about a point a piece.

Warscythes need a 5-10 point increase imo.

Doomscythes are fine as costed.

Fix possible loopholes with rules (debate over EL models getting to stand up after a sweeping advance is a prime one along with ghost arks bringing back models other than warriors.)

Lychguard needs to drop 5 points or so for the basic warscythe version, the sword and board version needs to be 3+/3++ and get about a 5pt increase in the upgrade cost.

Scarabs and spyders are fine as is. My only concern is the Spyderstar which I haven't tried or played against yet, so I can't really say what or if I would change.

Doomsday Ark could use a small points break

Praetorians need a points break.

Stormteks should probably be reduced to 3 shots instead of 4.

Flayed ones moved to troops, give them shred.

C'tan mainly points breaks in main cost and abilities.

Tomb blades 3+ armor

Monoliths regain some form of deep strike protection, possibly with an appropriate points increase.

Stalker needs a points break

Destroyers need their old gun back, heavies could use a second shot.


Mainly - make changes in small steps, especially with a faster release schedule.