Shidank wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm confused here, because Frozen Ocean has a point. I mean the codex literally States that the Emperor is the progenitor for the GK, if you're just gonna ignore that 'because following it is being an obstinate GW bible-thumper', then Sanguinius could be a secret Tyranid, if we're just ignoring what's written.

Fair enough if you don't like a bit of fluff, but if it's written in a codex, it's correct, and anything you say otherwise is headcanon. Nothing wrong with headcanon, but that's exactly what it is.

I think going back through every post and requoting the progression of the discussion would be both moot(since anyone is welcome to go back and read for themselves) and derail the thread even more than Frozen or Psi.

Now! Let's look at this like the functional alcoholic adults that we are, eh?

The Emperor can't have made the Grey Knights after the heresy: Reasonable to assume
The Emperor would have had to create this magically convenient stock of geneseed before or during the heresy(can't be much during since he spent most of that battling under the Golden Throne): Extremely reasonable to assume
The Emperor created this geneseed for a purpose other than Grey Knights: Probable in that he would likely have started this project with the webway still under construction and wouldn't have considered such a chapter necessary.
The Emperor likely created them for one of two reasons; Security within the webway/backup plan if the webway failed: While this is feasible, I wouldn't say the Emperor proved to be very great at backup plans.

This plot armor some people are having trouble burrowing through is the blanket statement "made from the Emperor" when, loosely, that same quote can be applied to any marine descendant from a Primarch. The statement is not specific, it is(honestly I'm not being unreasonable here) extremely ambiguous.


To get this thread back on track, let's move forward from here unless someone has something altogether different they would like to contribute. I think the derail can be considered done now unless someone feels the need to continue. In that event, I invite you to PM me rather than spam the thread.

 Shidank wrote:
I understand your frustration if you're refusing to read, but tell me specifically what it says to counter the 4 points in the post you quoted. PM me if you like or post it here if you're bringing in new knowledge we can all benefit from.

***Also, it really seems like you aren't reading my posts. I'll ask that you do so, please. Helps with communication and all that.

 Shidank wrote:
I like the blank slate idea! That there could even exist a stock of universally compatible geneseed on Terra opens a lot of doors for thought.

 Shidank wrote:
So as far as the Emperor laying claim to the GKs, could it be he took that blank template and mashed his magic thumb on it (in a manner of speaking) and called it good?

Could they feasibly support the creation of new geneseed or would the lack of new material from the Emperor have shut that down long ago?

 Shidank wrote:

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should he prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium’s many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so he created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons. These were the Grey Knights, and they would stand as the Emperor’s ultimate weapon against the Gods of Chaos.

[...]

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor knew that the time was coming when he would have to face his traitorous son Horus and that he might well not survive. However, he foresaw that, even if Horus and his armies were defeated, the power of Chaos would remain a constant threat to Humanity. His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in his bid to protect Mankind. This new breed of Space Marine would be stronger of will than his brothers, and unwavering in his loyalty to Humanity, able to stand naked before the power of the Warp and survive unscathed.

 Shidank wrote:
I understand your frustration if you're refusing to read, but tell me specifically what it says to counter the 4 points in the post you quoted. PM me if you like or post it here if you're bringing in new knowledge we can all benefit from.

***Also, it really seems like you aren't reading my posts. I'll ask that you do so, please. Helps with communication and all that.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

That's also in the GK codex, actually.

In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should he prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium’s many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so he created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons. These were the Grey Knights, and they would stand as the Emperor’s ultimate weapon against the Gods of Chaos.

[...]

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor knew that the time was coming when he would have to face his traitorous son Horus and that he might well not survive. However, he foresaw that, even if Horus and his armies were defeated, the power of Chaos would remain a constant threat to Humanity. His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in his bid to protect Mankind. This new breed of Space Marine would be stronger of will than his brothers, and unwavering in his loyalty to Humanity, able to stand naked before the power of the Warp and survive unscathed.

Essentially, they were nothing more than Plan B.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
Lol alright, well if you're just stating "it's in the codex" and not replying to posts, I think we can call that matter concluded and move on.


New point that you may sink your teeth into?

Assuming the Emperor began work on the Grey Knights(or at least a chapter's strength inventory of unique geneseed) before the Heresy, what could that purpose have been?

I guess what I'm asking is, with the Emperor assuming the webway would be a success and that daemonic incursion in the Imperium would be relegated to a minor matter, what was the original purpose of the Grey Knights? What was the geneseed for?

That's also in the GK codex, actually.

In his infinite wisdom the Emperor foresaw that even should he prevail against Horus the threat of Chaos would remain. He knew that of all the Imperium’s many foes, the daemonic was the greatest threat, and so he created a brotherhood of incorruptible warriors to fight Daemons. These were the Grey Knights, and they would stand as the Emperor’s ultimate weapon against the Gods of Chaos.

[...]

The Grey Knights were born in the final bloody days of the Horus Heresy. The Emperor knew that the time was coming when he would have to face his traitorous son Horus and that he might well not survive. However, he foresaw that, even if Horus and his armies were defeated, the power of Chaos would remain a constant threat to Humanity. His greatest warriors, the Space Marines, had proven fallible to the temptations of the Dark Gods and so the Emperor set out to create a new soldier in his bid to protect Mankind. This new breed of Space Marine would be stronger of will than his brothers, and unwavering in his loyalty to Humanity, able to stand naked before the power of the Warp and survive unscathed.

Essentially, they were nothing more than Plan B.

My beef with this is the timeline. It's the equivalent of saying Obama defeated the Nazis. It doesn't play. That it's written specifically to look like propaganda means GW may have(for once) trusted us to be more clever than we're acting here. He would have created the geneseed long before the "bloody days" of the Horus Heresy. That he repurposed it is not in question. The original purpose is.

 Shidank wrote:
He did this while fighting under the Golden Throne? I wasn't aware he stepped out of that hellhole unless it was absolutely necessary. Still, if you're wanting to read the fluff as a bible and not as faux propaganda, I can't stop you.

We'll just picture a mini-emprah...

Just...working his little golden bottom off producing a stock of utterly unique and stable geneseed with only his genetic marker on it.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Their geneseed origin is actually the least vague thing about them.

The 2 previous codices have heavily implied they were created directly from the Emperor and the most recent Codex just flat out says it.

 Shidank wrote:
I'm pointing out legitimate holes in it and you're covering them up with handwavium plot armor.

I may be tenacious, but you're being a bit obstinate.

I'll tell you what, since I don't need this degenerating into a p***ing match, I'll make some points and you make counterpoints. Sound good?

1. Made from the Emperor: So are all Marines. The Geneseed that regulates the SM implants is of the Emperor's genetic stock. Even if it wasn't, every Primarch is his genetic son and has imprinted their DNA on the geneseed of the marines that followed. This is a worthless statement.
2. Were made as a plan B: Well, since the geneseed stock would have needed to have been made before Magnus broke the webway, no. I argue that this stock had an entirely different purpose and it was changed in the aftermath of the HH to fit the immediate need.

There. Now we can begin a formal discussion.

ImAGeek wrote:He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

Grimskul wrote:@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

 dusara217 wrote:

ImAGeek wrote:He's just projecting a psychic mask over himself, why does that need to change his DNA? If I put a mask on, my DNA doesn't chnage does it?

You can express a theory all you want. That's not what you're doing. You're saying other people are wrong (usually when they have evidence) because it goes against your opinion. It's a two way street my friend.

Grimskul wrote:@david choe

Please stop trying to de-rail threads with your unfounded circular logic about the Emperor's nature and your weird obsession (and misinterpretation) of guises. You've already ruined multiple threads, don't spread it here as well.

I'm sorry, I understand that you guys said this a week ago, but you're pissing me the feth off. He is stating his opinion and supporting his argument with logic. He is doing nothing wrong and is arguing why he believes the Grey Knights have the Emperor's Gene-seed. You are immediately assuming that he is attacking you and de-railing the thread like you do in every thread where somebody disagrees with you. I am calmly asking you to accept the fact that your opinion is not the ultimate source of wisdom and knowledge and everybody else is wrong because reasons. Now, here is the evidence that David Choe is correct:

1.) The Emperor is a powerful Warp entity composed of thousands of Psykers (ultra-powerful), and Warp entities have changed DNA in the pass (see: anything written about Chaos in the history of ever), so why should the Emperor not be able to do so?

2.) The Emperor's Warp power is at least the equivalent of the physical power of a C'tan, who is literally a star god. If the Emperor has at least as much power as a Star God, would he not have the power to change his DNA at will, like any other Warp Entity? (see: Mechanicum)

3.) You're being ignorant, please cease to do so, argue your point, provide evidence, give citations, support your argument with fluff or don't argue it at all.

 Grey Templar wrote:
1) Geneseed itself is not directly from the Emperor, but it was made using his genetics as a base. He doesn't have geneseed(which refers to the implants all marines receive) itself as that is totally artificial. The rest of their genetics are from him. It means he took his own DNA, then altered it and made the geneseed. Instead of taking his DNA, altering it into a Primarch, and then altering that Primarch's DNA into geneseed. Its only one step of alteration.

Unlike every other space marine, Grey Knights don't have a Primarch step separating them from the Emperor. This makes their connection far more pure as even that single generation, and the obvious tinkering and customization each primarch underwent to make them unique, will experience degradation.

2) Thats not in contention. They were obviously meant to do something else, but that got changed when the Heresy happened.

Completely unnecessary. Point to where my logic has flaws. Stop being antagonistic and have a discussion. All I'm hearing is one sentence repeated in a codex written to appear like propaganda. Stop acting as if your entire hobby is being assailed and engage in a dialogue speculating a subject that is ONLY speculation at its very core, as it is fiction.