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I stopped playing wh40k around the time Daemon Hunters were released, and I found them odd already then. The Emperor made the Adeptus Astartes gene-seed from the Primarchs' DNA, and within these Primarchs must be genes for things that don't exist normally in the human genomes, like the mucranoid gland to the more out there omophagea. Of course, some I have no trouble with being made from human DNA already present, like the second hearts and lungs. Assuming the Primarchs had something akin to these organs, if not identical, but enough that the genes were the same, Adeptus Astartes would not be a problem. There are some phenotypic peculiarities, like Alpha Legionnaires being taller than most, whilst their Primarchs being small than the others, but that can easily be explained by a feed-back loop that prevents growth over a certain height in both, with the genes being inherent to the ossmodula. In a universe of space magic and armies of Captain Americas, suspension of disbelief on these matters is a rather simple thing.

So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

I would assume that, much like the lore would suggest, the Emperor's physical form was chimeric and subject to his whim. I assume he played psychic surgeon with himself for millennia until he reasoned he had made his shell as strong as it could be.

Maybe it isn't actually his DNA? It could be that he just created a generic geneseed not derived from any of the primarchs and then gave it some of his essence, similar to how the Chaos Gods empower their daemons.

 Shidank wrote:


I would assume that, much like the lore would suggest, the Emperor's physical form was chimeric and subject to his whim. I assume he played psychic surgeon with himself for millennia until he reasoned he had made his shell as strong as it could be.

I doubt his genome was chimeric as he was born naturally, rather that he was just an extra powerful psyker (put bluntly) created by the Shamans. Could he alter his actual physical DNA, and not just his form? Seems very odd, and if he could do that, making Primarchs would've been a walk in the park it seems to me.

 Orblivion wrote:
Maybe it isn't actually his DNA? It could be that he just created a generic geneseed not derived from any of the primarchs and then gave it some of his essence, similar to how the Chaos Gods empower their daemons.

Well, the current assumption is the Grey Knights' got their gene-seed directly from the Emperor. That's what I'm addressing, because to me, that doesn't seem like they're playing by their own rules.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


I would assume that, much like the lore would suggest, the Emperor's physical form was chimeric and subject to his whim. I assume he played psychic surgeon with himself for millennia until he reasoned he had made his shell as strong as it could be.

I doubt his genome was chimeric as he was born naturally, rather that he was just an extra powerful psyker (put bluntly) created by the Shamans. Could he alter his actual physical DNA, and not just his form? Seems very odd, and if he could do that, making Primarchs would've been a walk in the park it seems to me.

 Orblivion wrote:
Maybe it isn't actually his DNA? It could be that he just created a generic geneseed not derived from any of the primarchs and then gave it some of his essence, similar to how the Chaos Gods empower their daemons.

Well, the current assumption is the Grey Knights' got their gene-seed directly from the Emperor. That's what I'm addressing, because to me, that doesn't seem like they're playing by their own rules.

Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

Edit - Found that Warp knowledge was involved, but that they were being of the Warp (e.g. Daemons).

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

I'll refer you to all of the Horus Heresy series. I'm not sure there's been a book where the Primarch written hasn't shown an affinity for the immaterium.

It's like asking for a source for bolter shells being hard.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:


Creating the primarchs required more than genetics. As they are beings both of the warp and of the physical plane, they would require MUCH more than a knowledge of genetics to engineer.

He either did alter his own physiology and regarded it as no more than how we might a particularly nice suit of armor, which would lend credence to the theory that he just handed over a fistfull of genetic material for Grey Knights...

OR...

He Emprah handwaved some basic geneseed he made out of loose carpet trimmings and old newspapers and called it divine.

Can you source that the statement that the Primarchs were beings of the physical plane AND the Warp?

I'll refer you to all of the Horus Heresy series. I'm not sure there's been a book where the Primarch written hasn't shown an affinity for the immaterium.

It's like asking for a source for bolter shells being hard.

Not at all. I completely disagree they were Daemons/creatures of the Warp. Was there Warp knowledge involved in their creation? Sure. And showing affinity for the Warp doesn't make you a creature of it.

A very unique form, but essentially.

 Shidank wrote:
A very unique form, but essentially.

Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you for sources

Hell, there could be certain genes or mutations that make people psychic in wh40k.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to actually figure out how the Grey Knights got their gene-seed, because I'm struggling to see how they got it from the Emperor.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
A very unique form, but essentially.

Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you for sources

Hell, there could be certain genes or mutations that make people psychic in wh40k.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to actually figure out how the Grey Knights got their gene-seed, because I'm struggling to see how they got it from the Emperor.

As with much of 40k, you'll have to assemble your own sense of reason through the dozens of books and hundreds of short stories that fill the genre. I recommend starting with IG stories since stepping backwards and doing them later can be dull.

 Shidank wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
A very unique form, but essentially.

Once again, I'm gonna have to ask you for sources

Hell, there could be certain genes or mutations that make people psychic in wh40k.

I'm not trying to be an ass, I just want to actually figure out how the Grey Knights got their gene-seed, because I'm struggling to see how they got it from the Emperor.

As with much of 40k, you'll have to assemble your own sense of reason through the dozens of books and hundreds of short stories that fill the genre. I recommend starting with IG stories since stepping backwards and doing them later can be dull.

I've read quite extensively, so no need for that. No need to be patronising either, I'm just asking you for quotes

Not patronizing, just unsure of how you haven't arrived at this same conclusion if you've read as extensively as you claim.

Let's take a concrete example presented in universe such as Geneseed. Geneseed is fabricated using the genetics of a Primarch. Geneseed can pass a number of physical traits, but has been shown to pass on traits beyond the rationally explained. A firm example, the black rage. The genetic material itself ties to the warp and allows this same madness to infect marines across a variety of successor chapters.

Wasn't the emperor a corpse by the time the grey knights got into the swing of things?

Did he leave behind notes and the inquisition complete to job or what?

 CShaffer wrote:
Wasn't the emperor a corpse by the time the grey knights got into the swing of things?

Did he leave behind notes and the inquisition complete to job or what?

Yes, but only because Malcador had hidden them away for several hundred years while they studied demons and fighting.

 Shidank wrote:
Not patronizing, just unsure of how you haven't arrived at this same conclusion if you've read as extensively as you claim.

Let's take a concrete example presented in universe such as Geneseed. Geneseed is fabricated using the genetics of a Primarch. Geneseed can pass a number of physical traits, but has been shown to pass on traits beyond the rationally explained. A firm example, the black rage. The genetic material itself ties to the warp and allows this same madness to infect marines across a variety of successor chapters.

Of course the Black Rage is psychic in source, but that could be Sanguinius' own psychic imprint on his descendants. The Black Rage doesn't necessarily stem from the genetic code, unlike the Red Thirst.

But again, gene-seed is made from the DNA of Primarchs, who got their DNA from new genes (Or genes so different from their original ones they might as well be). If the Emperor could change his DNA at will rather than his body through psychic powers, that means the whole Primarch research project and the supposed deals with Chaos were complete and utter wastes of time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CShaffer wrote:
Wasn't the emperor a corpse by the time the grey knights got into the swing of things?

Did he leave behind notes and the inquisition complete to job or what?

The Emperor planned the Grey Knights before he died, and effectively handed the project over to Malcador prior to the Siege of Terra, after apparently stocking up Titan with recruits and gene-seed. After that, like Shidank said, Malcador hid Titan, and thus them, away in the Warp until the Second Founding, when they emerged, having started with only 12 members and a moon full of recruits just a few years earlier as time had flowed much faster in the Warp, they were a fully fledged Chapter. It's in the Grey Knights 5th codex

The point made was that the Black Rage isn't genetic. It is a warp influence carried by the genetic legacy of Sanguinius, a being who's genes are of the material and immaterial.

The Emperor feasibly used his knowledge to change his body. I'm not sure what about that sticks in your craw, but it's not only highly probable, it's all but admitted in that his physical stature is that of a primarch's. This does not negate the importance or difficulty in the Primarch project.

To be fair, you asked, and I've provided a probable answer in the form of the Emperor providing geneseed from his own manufactured body that would(also) be partly infused with the warp and would carry his own legacy of incorruptibility.


Read Scars if you'd like literature on a Primarch admitting that they're all of the warp. It's honestly a pretty good read anyway.

 Shidank wrote:
The point made was that the Black Rage isn't genetic. It is a warp influence carried by the genetic legacy of Sanguinius, a being who's genes are of the material and immaterial.

The Emperor feasibly used his knowledge to change his body. I'm not sure what about that sticks in your craw, but it's not only highly probable, it's all but admitted in that his physical stature is that of a primarch's. This does not negate the importance or difficulty in the Primarch project.

To be fair, you asked, and I've provided a probable answer in the form of the Emperor providing geneseed from his own manufactured body that would(also) be partly infused with the warp and would carry his own legacy of incorruptibility.


Read Scars if you'd like literature on a Primarch admitting that they're all of the warp. It's honestly a pretty good read anyway.

I'm not saying everything is purely genetic; in a world of magic there's obviously gonna be crossovers. I'm just struggling to see how the Emperor would bother with Betcher's Gland etc. The Emperor, while born of natural methods, is thousands of reincarnated psykers, which is how he's so incredibly powerful.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I just find that particular theory difficult to believe

I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

 Shidank wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

From OP:
So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

Edit- realised the Grey Knights part was missing.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
I guess I'm not understanding the nature of your question now that we've hopped to spitting acid. Could you phrase it better and I'll try and understand where you're coming from?

From OP:
So my assumptions are:
- The Emperor created or modified genes and organs so different from the original human (or other sources) ones that their original genes (if they were human) would be very difficult or impossible to recognise.
- The Primarchs had some variant of these organs and genes, whilst the Adeptus Astartes got modified versions derived from their respective Primarch's genome.
- The Emperor did not have these genes or organs originally, as the only source referring to his birth is Realm of Chaos from 1988, states he was born in the 8th century BC.

So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

Edit- realised the Grey Knights part was missing.

While no geneticist, I took the new organs to be based on the Emperor's own immensely complex(through his own work)genetic template and for a being other than himself to survive with these organs, he invented the geneseed to regulate all of the implants. It's not so much creating a new species as it was creating more genetic possibility within the boundaries of humanity. He could have taken cues from all of history he had observed and specifically tinkered to create these organs to manufacture a perfect soldier. While baseline mankind's DNA would be the foundation, his more impressive cellular structure would be the brick and mortar.

1) They would be human, but the material of certain organs would be more sketchy.
2) The Primarchs were more like the emperor in that they needed no geneseed to regulate.
3) The Emperor did not. He made improvements. He's cool like that.

Well... I've never read the novel, but I know in Deliverance Lost, Corax got the original genetic materials used in creating the Primarchs from a sealed library on terra, under the guidance of the Emperor. At the end, we know Alpha Legion's got the complete data on the genetic materials. And since with the Alpha Legion any thing can happen, the data could have ended up in Malcador's hand, somehow. And Malcador might have been able to make superior geneseed for the GK.

Edit: Someone else in another Thread raised this hypothesis. I can't seem to find out who did, but I thought the whole "AL stealing Primarch Genetic materials and dicking Fabius Bile" thing is a really strange plot point left unsolved. IMO it has to come up at some point.

That would be an interesting theory to think about

I dont have a source, but I would think that the Emperor's DNA was a part of the geneseed. they have states in places that there are certain genes that make people psykers (The Astropath and navigation genes) With this in mind I would assume that being a gestalt psychic being as he was, the emperor had literal millennia to perfect his genecraft. He would first figure out his own DNA, then look at humans and then eventually animals. I haven’t done much research but I’d bet that all of the space marine organs have some sort of analogue in an animal or other part of the natural world. As far as where he got the gene seed, I was under the impression that the original geneseed he used for the Primarch was derived from his DNA, which is why he called them his sons, unlike the thunder warriors whom he just created out of modified human DNA. IF all of the assumptions (a very dangerous word) are correct then it would not have been hard for him to create un-altered geeneseed from himself, that was very corruption resistant, including organs that bear his DNA signature and set them up in an gene bank for later use. Malcador could have taken this bank to Titan when he created the Grey Knights. Again this is all speculation and assumption on my part, so if someone finds hard, contradictory evidence I would defer to it.

 Shidank wrote:


While no geneticist, I took the new organs to be based on the Emperor's own immensely complex(through his own work)genetic template and for a being other than himself to survive with these organs, he invented the geneseed to regulate all of the implants. It's not so much creating a new species as it was creating more genetic possibility within the boundaries of humanity. He could have taken cues from all of history he had observed and specifically tinkered to create these organs to manufacture a perfect soldier. While baseline mankind's DNA would be the foundation, his more impressive cellular structure would be the brick and mortar.

1) They would be human, but the material of certain organs would be more sketchy.
2) The Primarchs were more like the emperor in that they needed no geneseed to regulate.
3) The Emperor did not. He made improvements. He's cool like that.

Right, 'cause I am a geneticist

What do you mean the gene-seed regulates? The gene-seed exists in the progenoid glands and develops into proto-implants.

The Primarch's genome was derived in part from the Emperor's own, and had genes deleted. However, I'm wondering what further tinkering (read: extra genes added and modified) was done, as Leman Russ had wolf genes as well, suggesting DNA separate from the Emperor's was added to the Primarchs' genomes. So, if the Emperor had the genetic material required for all the extra glands, Betcher's gland, the omophagae etc. I don't see a problem at all, though I find it utterly bizarre that the Shaman council would have the required genetic knowledge to be able to reincarnate into the Emperor with said genetic template.

I find it far more likely that the Emperor, having some sort of superior genome, while deleting many of his own genes, did modify lready existing ones and adding new ones. E.g. he might have modified a "Psyker" gene in Magnus' case, and we know Leman Russ had extra wolf DNA added.

Then when creating the Adeptus Astartes, he created partially new genes and organs from scratch, like Betcher's gland and the omophaegae.

The geneseed makes the organs function in harmony. The Thunder Warriors had no such saving grace.

I doubt the shaman cared for genetics and we can thank the Emperor and his tens of thousands of years of life for his own knowledge and dickery with his own body. It's entirely possible that the amalgamated presence of the shaman made his genes unique and he spent a great deal of time unlocking that potential and passing it on, however.

 ChazSexington wrote:

The Primarch's genome was derived in part from the Emperor's own, and had genes deleted. However, I'm wondering what further tinkering (read: extra genes added and modified) was done, as Leman Russ had wolf genes as well, suggesting DNA separate from the Emperor's was added to the Primarchs' genomes. So, if the Emperor had the genetic material required for all the extra glands, Betcher's gland, the omophagae etc. I don't see a problem at all, though I find it utterly bizarre that the Shaman council would have the required genetic knowledge to be able to reincarnate into the Emperor with said genetic template.

I find it far more likely that the Emperor, having some sort of superior genome, while deleting many of his own genes, did modify lready existing ones and adding new ones. E.g. he might have modified a "Psyker" gene in Magnus' case, and we know Leman Russ had extra wolf DNA added.

Then when creating the Adeptus Astartes, he created partially new genes and organs from scratch, like Betcher's gland and the omophaegae.

In the risk of being called a fanboi again, I will say this about Leman Russ: he is unlikely to have any sort of canis genes or the sorts in him.

I say this because first: in A Thousand Sons, Magnus explained to Ahriman that Canis Helix, the gene seed component that initiates all the wolfy transformations in a Space Wolf Aspirant, is a product of ancient engineering of unknown origins found only on Fenris. And the genes that lead to the Fenrisian natives' toughness and hardiness are a result of that gene passing down in them. Now you are the expert here, But I doubt Canis genes can be spliced into human genes to produce Werewolves. So let's just take it as the "Word of God", so we know that's the cause of Wulfens.

Magnus claimed that the Fenrisian Wolves are the results of the genetic experiments done on the human population of Fenris, that turned some population into feral, wolf-like creatures. And the suggestion seems to be that Canix Helix is an extract of that gene intended to be used on Space Wolves initiatives only. (Also note that even during the Great Crusade, the Space Wolves Legion was already trying to recruit exclusively from Fenris, according to Bjorn from Scars, possibly because of genetic incompatibilities or whatever that is called, as what would then happen to the Wolf Brothers.). So the Canix Helix is not a part of the original gene-seed.

And secondly, in A Thousand Sons and the Burning of Prospero, contrary to the Space Wolf legionaries, Leman Russ is never depicted nor described to have fangs. In other words, Leman Russ doesn't have Canis Helix in him because Canis Helix is the reason Space Wolves even grow elongated fangs and long furs and whatever wolfy things they grow in the first place. Now I can't say for certain here but Leman Russ's personality is always described to be wearing a savage mask, and is more than it seems. He himself is probably still a non-fenrisian, only raised as one.

Thanks for the useful information! I never knew this is where the wolves came from originally, just that the helix had made them of SW aspirants.

 lcmiracle wrote:


In the risk of being called a fanboi again, I will say this about Leman Russ: he is unlikely to have any sort of canis genes or the sorts in him.

I say this because first: in A Thousand Sons, Magnus explained to Ahriman that Canis Helix, the gene seed component that initiates all the wolfy transformations in a Space Wolf Aspirant, is a product of ancient engineering of unknown origins found only on Fenris. And the genes that lead to the Fenrisian natives' toughness and hardiness are a result of that gene passing down in them. Now you are the expert here, But I doubt Canis genes can be spliced into human genes to produce Werewolves. So let's just take it as the "Word of God", so we know that's the cause of Wulfens.

Magnus claimed that the Fenrisian Wolves are the results of the genetic experiments done on the human population of Fenris, that turned some population into feral, wolf-like creatures. And the suggestion seems to be that Canix Helix is an extract of that gene intended to be used on Space Wolves initiatives only. (Also note that even during the Great Crusade, the Space Wolves Legion was already trying to recruit exclusively from Fenris, according to Bjorn from Scars, possibly because of genetic incompatibilities or whatever that is called, as what would then happen to the Wolf Brothers.). So the Canix Helix is not a part of the original gene-seed.

And secondly, in A Thousand Sons and the Burning of Prospero, contrary to the Space Wolf legionaries, Leman Russ is never depicted nor described to have fangs. In other words, Leman Russ doesn't have Canis Helix in him because Canis Helix is the reason Space Wolves even grow elongated fangs and long furs and whatever wolfy things they grow in the first place. Now I can't say for certain here but Leman Russ's personality is always described to be wearing a savage mask, and is more than it seems. He himself is probably still a non-fenrisian, only raised as one.

It's in Deliverance Lost. Russ has wolf DNA, confirmed by Raven Guard apothecaries. Though it is still entirely possible he didn't have the Canis helix.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shidank wrote:
The geneseed makes the organs function in harmony. The Thunder Warriors had no such saving grace.

I doubt the shaman cared for genetics and we can thank the Emperor and his tens of thousands of years of life for his own knowledge and dickery with his own body. It's entirely possible that the amalgamated presence of the shaman made his genes unique and he spent a great deal of time unlocking that potential and passing it on, however.

I'm not entirely sure on that. Genetically modifying every single cell in your body, possibly thousands of times over...

However, it's mentioned in Deliverance Lost that the Primarchs had extra genes added, so it's likely that some or all glands were included.

Huh, that's interesting. I must say though, that is incredibly kind of the Gods of Chaos to send a Primarch with Wolf genes to a planet full of wolf-men. But I digress.

In fear of hi-jacking another thread, I don't suppose it is only legends that the GK has Emperor's own genetic materials in their gene-seeds? If it is just legends then it's possible for the gene-seeds to come from loyalist and traitor legions' gene-seeds held on Terra at that time.

I must admit right now is too early to say how the Grey Knights gene-seeds were created. We will just have to wait when and if the BL writers ever decide to resolve this plot point.