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 Psienesis wrote:
Among the many hats the Emperor wore, "Super-Scientist" was at least forty of them. Changing, splicing, creating, adding and subtracting genetic data from the human genome (and, possibly, that of other species) is certainly within his abilities, as we see in his Primarch Project, as well as the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes, and who-knows-how-many other manipulations of Mankind throughout future-history.

After all, the guy had nearly 40,000 years to study any sciences he damn well wanted to study... and when you're sitting on the ruins of Earth with nothing to do but butcher other techno-barbarians, you can get a whole lot of reading done.

1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.

This is a physiological change, not a genetic change. You can get bigger and tougher by working out regularly, but this doesn't change your genetic structure.

Depends on how you view this change. I view it as this normal man has some bear DNA like in him to make him stronger and tougher. There is no way a human DNA muscle and bones can change enough to be that much stronger. Just like SM +1T +1S is by changing DNA of man. Again, I view changing is first down the the scientific level first... DNA and the result is what we get... stronger, tougher, etc... The "magic" changed everything in biological level.

S3 or S4?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafthór_Júlíus_Björnsson
He didn't change his DNA at all.
I have not doubt the Emperor could change his genetic make up, but what's the point if he could just alter his appearance and strength via psychic powers.
I also have horrible visions of a psyker modifying their own DNA to remove the psyker gene by accident.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
S3 or S4?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafthór_Júlíus_Björnsson
He didn't change his DNA at all.
I have not doubt the Emperor could change his genetic make up, but what's the point if he could just alter his appearance and strength via psychic powers.
I also have horrible visions of a psyker modifying their own DNA to remove the psyker gene by accident.

I didn't understand your post at all. I'm not even sure if it was directed at me.

Sorry, the first part was a reply to your Biomancy statement that +1ing your strength involves DNA changes, and that the man I linked could be counted as S4 without altering his DNA.

The second and third part were just on record.

Alright let's try to move onto things. The original question is how does the emperor as a genefather for the spacemarines work, when he's not a geneticly engineered primarch and is, presumably, just a man.

David's proposed the theory that the Emperor with his vast psykic powers, not only could apper differnt, but could actually change his very make up.
It's an intreasting eneugh theory, although there is simply no evidance, eaither way, to support or deny it.

I'm gonna present a differnt theory. ok, we know that the Astartes project came after the Primarchs and the Emperor built on the Primarch project to acheive it. HOWEVER, I'm gonna guess that by time he had mastered it, Primarch genetic material, wasn't, strictly speaking, essential. he had pretty much perfected it. I'm gonna guess that following the 1st founding, the Emperor reached a point where he could make geneseed from scratch.

Essentially he didn't need to by the end, filter it through a Primarch (although that made it easier) he could make the stuff raw and "untainted", however as with the primarch project, this meant the basic "Starter cells" he used, where his own. cause he needed something to start with and hey... he had lots of toe nail clippings.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Primarchs' genetic code is likewise derived from the Emperor. They are, in effect, clones of him... simply structured so that each of the Primarchs embodies certain traits over others, mixed with a bit of Warp-stuff to make it work.

Yet we know he modified, added to, and deleted parts of their genome. While they are clones, they are very heavily modified clones, and I presume that's where the DNA for gene-seed came in.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Taking guises and psychically changing/masking his form doesn't neccesarily mean his DNA changed.

That's what I've understood as well. Magnus' DNA doesn't change instantaneously to reflect whatever shape he took I think either. I've only just viewed it as psychic powers.

 david choe wrote:

We know he took many guises (more than likely... over 1,000 identities) before his final guise as the Emperor... so he was very capable of changing his DNA.

That doesn't mean he had the ability to change his DNA, just his outward appearance. If he had this power, the Primarch Project would've been pointless, as he could just turn himself into Horus, Sanguinius etc in order and clone that DNA before changing into a new Primarch. A man who has his penis chopped off, inverted and turned into a vagina and given plastic boobs is still genetically a man, however much the lady doth protest.

I can't believe I just compared the Emperor to a transgender.

 Manchu wrote:
No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

Because they are, according to Deliverance Lost.

 Psienesis wrote:
Among the many hats the Emperor wore, "Super-Scientist" was at least forty of them. Changing, splicing, creating, adding and subtracting genetic data from the human genome (and, possibly, that of other species) is certainly within his abilities, as we see in his Primarch Project, as well as the Thunder Warriors, the Custodes, and who-knows-how-many other manipulations of Mankind throughout future-history.

After all, the guy had nearly 40,000 years to study any sciences he damn well wanted to study... and when you're sitting on the ruins of Earth with nothing to do but butcher other techno-barbarians, you can get a whole lot of reading done.

1. if Chaos powers can "bless" or Mutant exist... and I think there is one psychic power in the game in biomancy that give you +1 T and +1 S to represent the change in your biology structure... I assume that during that period.. your DNA is changed too. I mean you are bigger and tougher.

This is a physiological change, not a genetic change. You can get bigger and tougher by working out regularly, but this doesn't change your genetic structure.

Precisely, I've always seen it as physiological change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
Alright let's try to move onto things. The original question is how does the emperor as a genefather for the spacemarines work, when he's not a geneticly engineered primarch and is, presumably, just a man.

David's proposed the theory that the Emperor with his vast psykic powers, not only could apper differnt, but could actually change his very make up.
It's an intreasting eneugh theory, although there is simply no evidance, eaither way, to support or deny it.

I'm gonna present a differnt theory. ok, we know that the Astartes project came after the Primarchs and the Emperor built on the Primarch project to acheive it. HOWEVER, I'm gonna guess that by time he had mastered it, Primarch genetic material, wasn't, strictly speaking, essential. he had pretty much perfected it. I'm gonna guess that following the 1st founding, the Emperor reached a point where he could make geneseed from scratch.

Essentially he didn't need to by the end, filter it through a Primarch (although that made it easier) he could make the stuff raw and "untainted", however as with the primarch project, this meant the basic "Starter cells" he used, where his own. cause he needed something to start with and hey... he had lots of toe nail clippings.

I definitely assumed he can make gene-seed from scratch; it seems somewhat trivial after the Primarch Project. Either way, he did make Grey Knights from supposedly his own DNA. Essentially, did the DNA for the gene-seed (for the non-human organs) derive mainly from non-Emperor DNA, or elsewhere? Because making an extra heart or lung is no problem, but Betcher's gland and the omophagea seem impossible unless you take the existing genes and modify them to such an extent they're virtually unrecognisable as of human origin, thus taking them so far away from the Emperor's genetic template they might as well be made from scratch.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 david choe wrote:

We know he took many guises (more than likely... over 1,000 identities) before his final guise as the Emperor... so he was very capable of changing his DNA.

That doesn't mean he had the ability to change his DNA, just his outward appearance. If he had this power, the Primarch Project would've been pointless, as he could just turn himself into Horus, Sanguinius etc in order and clone that DNA before changing into a new Primarch. A man who has his penis chopped off, inverted and turned into a vagina and given plastic boobs is still genetically a man, however much the lady doth protest.

I can't believe I just compared the Emperor to a transgender.

It doesn't mean he didn't had this ability also.

The Primarch project was not pointless. He needed the "mother" to keep making the seeds for those legions and most important of all, he need their leadership. He wanted his sons as his generals.

LOL, the plastic boobs is not the same as real boob that the New Man or the Emperor can create.

Remember he was the smartest human and the most power psyker in the galaxy... I think he can change DNA.

I guess ... lets look at one of Emperor muscle cell that carry his DNA... when that muscle cell transformed into a larger muscle cell or smaller (whatever he was transforming into) ... the Nucleolus, the cell membrane , the mitochondria, etc... must changed too... why not the DNA inside those as well. I don't get why the fantasy of this psychic power or "magic" has to stop at the micro cells level, but not smaller to the DNA level. It's all Sci-fi magic did it to me.

Chaz raised a good point there though, if the Emperor could change his DNA, then the fact that he has missing genes required for his Primarch project wouldn't have been an issue. He didn't mean the Primarch project was pointless in that way, he meant there was no need for all the genetic tinkering the Emperor did in his labs, as he could've just changed his DNA into what he wanted and then cloned that, as opposed to spending years in his labs under Terra working on the genetics for the Primarchs.

 ImAGeek wrote:
Chaz raised a good point there though, if the Emperor could change his DNA, then the fact that he has missing genes required for his Primarch project wouldn't have been an issue. He didn't mean the Primarch project was pointless in that way, he meant there was no need for all the genetic tinkering the Emperor did in his labs, as he could've just changed his DNA into what he wanted and then cloned that, as opposed to spending years in his labs under Terra working on the genetics for the Primarchs.

How do we know that "tinkering" in the lab isn't using his psychic power to change DNA? Maybe he did just that, he cloned a stem cell of his.. .then using psychic to change the DNA in the cell to make the Primarchs or the start of GreyKnight seeds. May be he didn't need to morph into Horus to get Horus DNA. All he needed to do was get one of his hair and modify the DNA of his hair and make Horus from there. I don't think we have the details of what he was doing in the lab. I just think that he was so powerful that this DNA thing was not a big issue. I think even man in the future can manipulate DNA as little as under 1,000 years because of the Genome Project. Soon we can identified inferior DNA and modified people (as unethical as that sound)... Gattaca movie comes to mind.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
No worries -- let's all of us get back on-topic ...

... which is

 ChazSexington wrote:
So my question is when creating the Grey Knights, how would the Emperor have gone about creating these organs from his own DNA, when he would likely be missing so much of the necessary genes, or have to modify them to such a degree they aren't recognisable?

But I am not really sure why OP assumes the necessary genes are missing.

Because they are, according to Deliverance Lost.

I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

 david choe wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Chaz raised a good point there though, if the Emperor could change his DNA, then the fact that he has missing genes required for his Primarch project wouldn't have been an issue. He didn't mean the Primarch project was pointless in that way, he meant there was no need for all the genetic tinkering the Emperor did in his labs, as he could've just changed his DNA into what he wanted and then cloned that, as opposed to spending years in his labs under Terra working on the genetics for the Primarchs.

How do we know that "tinkering" in the lab isn't using his psychic power to change DNA? Maybe he did just that, he cloned a stem cell of his.. .then using psychic to change the DNA in the cell to make the Primarchs or the start of GreyKnight seeds. May be he didn't need to morph into Horus to get Horus DNA. All he needed to do was get one of his hair and modify the DNA of his hair and make Horus from there. I don't think we have the details of what he was doing in the lab. I just think that he was so powerful that this DNA thing was not a big issue. I think even man in the future can manipulate DNA as little as under 1,000 years because of the Genome Project. Soon we can identified inferior DNA and modified people (as unethical as that sound)... Gattaca movie comes to mind.

Because that's changing the fluff to suit the idea. I could say the human scientists were really Eldar Banshee cheerleaders, cheering for the Emperor's psychic powers, as well, but that's changing the established fluff, which imho we don't have the authority to do.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

Sorry about being a bit terse there, btw! Did not mean to! It was just late and I was trying to reply to all the posts

Headcanon warning, but somebody might find it interesting. I'll start by quoting myself (comments on these old posts in red).


From a thread discussing why the Primarchs have yet to be cloned:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I think the logic is the same as a Space Marine - their DNA is fundamentally human and their superhuman abilities come from modifications thereafter. Just because it's biotechnology doesn't mean that their DNA has to be specifically altered, in the same sense that a cyborg's DNA is not.

I think perhaps that it wasn't so simple as genetically engineering them and that The Emperor only altered their DNA so far as to make them receptive to the processes and implants that would follow.

Also, without sorcery to move souls around, cloning is not resurrection. It is possible that the clones of Horus were crazy because they were attempting to implant Horus' actual soul into cloned bodies and failed, but it's also possible that that engineered DNA (the "base" of a Primarch, so to speak) doesn't result in anything that could be considered a normal human. And certainly not a Primarch or Horus himself.

 Psienesis wrote:
There is also the fact that what the Primarchs were... that is, the people that we know them as... were products of the various planets they were tossed to as infants. We don't have any "blank slate" Primarchs, so it is impossible to determine how much of what they were was Nature versus how much of them was Nurture.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
It's not impossible. Most of the stuff that their homes changed is cosmetic - skin, hair, eye colour - and their personalities. We know that The Emperor created them to be big and strong.

By "base", I mean that The Emperor designed and engineered an altered human genome. These altered humans yes, even before they were "born" would then be subjected to a number of procedures (if we assume they are like Space Marines, which is logical, then this would involve a great deal of artificial organ implantation) that would endow them with the ability to grow as big and strong as he wanted. So a Primarch would be created by implanting the "blank" superhuman with superior versions of Space Marine organs, causing them to grow into the Primarchs we know.

This is really the only suitable explanation as to why you can't just clone a Primarch. If The Emperor engineered their DNA just to be Primarchs, then cloning them would be easy. Even assuming that Primarchs have all these Warp-powers doesn't make sense, because he would have to have engineered that in the beginning (we know that Warp-power can be genetic, as there have been multiple instances of xenos with natural Warp powers). If The Emperor created "Primarch DNA", it would be a simple matter of just copying his work.

As for The Emperor's own DNA, well, I have a few things to say on that. First and foremost, changing your physical appearance by means of magic is no way related to changing your DNA. DNA codes for the transcription of amino acids. If, instead of shapeshifting outright, The Emperor were to alter the DNA of every cell in his body, he wouldn't change because that's just not how it works. He would need to revert himself to a single (altered) zygote, then use magic to fast-grow that one cell into a complete body again. Why would he do that, even if capable? He's clearly capable of massive feats of psychic ability. Altering his physical shape by means of Warp power seems trivial in comparison, and far more effective than altering his DNA. He is also not omniscient. DNA is extraordinarily complex. While The Emperor may be able to perfectly imagine a physical form of his choosing and then actualise it with psychic power, knowing the exact genetic structure of the form he wishes to take implies, well, omniscience, unless he can only take the shape of other people by sampling then rapidly copying their DNA like The Thing.

Before I go on, I need to mention another element of my headcanon, which explains a number of things. The Warp is able to alter the laws of physics. The more the Warp is used to "push" against reality, the more it "pushes" back. For example, one of the most basic things in physics is that you can't spontaneously generate anything. With the Warp, you can - a psyker can shoot a 5GJ lightning bolt from their face. The amount of psychic power needed to alter reality is directly proportional to the level to which reality is being altered; firing a 1GJ lightning bolt from your face requires approximately 1/5 of firing a 5GJ. Other factors, such as controlling the arc of this spontaneously generated energy, require yet more Warp-power. This is why Ork technology does function to a certain extent, and why Daemons have flesh-and-blood bodies; both of these rely on Warp power to fiddle with reality to make them work. Using the Waaagh to make an almost-functional device function takes far less power than, say, a Boy picking up a solid piece of metal and it performing exactly like a Shoota. For Daemons, manifesting into a physical form requires them to expend far less of their precious power in merely existing in the Materium at all. A Bloodthirster has wings which it must flap in order to fly, even though they couldn't possibly lift it. With the addition of their Warp power, those wingflaps are suddenly capable of lifting them - much less Warp-energy is expended than by simply defying gravity outright like Superman. So, finally, on to why this is relevant.

I believe that the "Warp knowledge" part was in manufacturing, or at least altering (assuming that souls manifest automatically), their souls. The genetics part was a purely scientific endeavour, but physical form was not the only factor in creating what were essentially miniature versions of himself. He couldn't just make more Emperors, even if he wanted to; he'd need 1000 Shamans in ritual suicide for that. Instead, he used science to create a superhuman framework that was explicitly designed for two things - to be bonded with a special soul (giving them power beyond their physical form), and to produce gene-seed through which specific artificial organs could be cultivated for the purpose of creating Space Marines (who are, like Dark Eldar, not genetically modified).

To what actual purpose he used his own DNA is uncertain. How The Emperor's unmodified DNA would express itself naturally, without any psychic powers involved, is also uncertain. What we do know is that he used his DNA to create the Primarchs. That doesn't mean he merely scraped off a few DNA samples and grew babies from them, however. Just because his DNA was the starting point doesn't mean that, after all manner of alterations through technology, it was recognisable as his DNA any more. It certainly seems logical that he did it for physical attributes alone, simply because he is a big, strong guy and so are all the Primarchs, but there are a number of reasons it has to be something else (see above). Perhaps it was because his genes were inherently tied to his psychic power, that his unique physiological composition is what allowed his unique psychic ability to remain tied to his body, and that the special souls of his sons would be far easier to bind to a physical form based on his own.

That's why it's relevant to Grey Knights. Like with the Primarchs, using his own DNA to create their gene-seed has some effect on their relationship with the Warp. Of course the Primarchs weren't incorruptible, but Grey Knights, being born human and augmented into an Astartes, don't have special souls like the Primarchs did. I think it likely that, somehow, the augmentations that create a Space Marine are capable (and designed as such) of producing a sort of empathic effect between an Astartes and his Primarch (explaining the Black Rage). If such a trait exists, then it seems most likely that this was meant to further the purpose of a Primarch as a commander. If such a thing were established between an Astartes and The Emperor, instead, it could explain their "purity" and their various unique psychic powers along that theme (although these would be integrated into their design and not just a side-effect of bearing "Emperor gene-seed").

Finally, in line with what I said about The Emperor's genetics and how they (don't) relate to his physiology, I don't think that the Grey Knights are physically superior to other Marines due to The Emperor being their "Primarch". Rather, I think it is because he designed them to be that way; individually superior but harder to produce, just like the Custodes. So while the average Space Marine is inferior to a Grey Knight or Custodian, the Legions (at least in the design plan) are a superior force due to their numeracy. It's kind of like the difference between the Space Marines and the Imperial Guard, though on a much smaller scale.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


I took it that they were missing intentionally and not provided by the Emperor. The Emperor only gave Corax enough know how so that he could rebuild his chapter, not go and create brand new Legions. Will have to go and dig out Deliverance Lost .... Thanks Chaz!

Sorry about being a bit terse there, btw! Did not mean to! It was just late and I was trying to reply to all the posts

No need to apologise, I was just complaining that I would have to go and revisit Deliverance Lost. So actually, an apologise is necessary thinking about it again.

It should be pointed out that if you're going with Shaman origin Emperor then he had special DNA from the get go. His true sons, the Sensei, inherited it from him and they were even said to be the genetic counterparts to the Space Marines in many ways.

So, we're all still just going off the Emperor being the progenitor for the Grey Knights?

We're just going to drink the koolaid and be done with it?

Since that's what the GK Codex flat-out says, yeah. Any other version is "head-canon". You're free to make up whatever origin story you like for them (and any other aspect of 40K), but that's the official version of the story.

That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Ok.

 Shidank wrote:
That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Don't you know by now that if it is in print.. you get to not think.

There has been some of the stupidest fluff in print that will make you go ....

My favorite is "Nurgle is the creator of ALL THE PLAGUES IN THE UNIVERSE"...note.. not Galaxy.. but the UNIVERSE!

There is nothing you can do to argue against GW bible thumping fanbois... because they will get you with the ...if it is in print.

GW bible thumping has a place. It's important to reign in the crazy, but if you thump too hard and refuse to build on the foundations the universe has given you, you're just being obstinate.

You're not attempting to build on it, you're attempting to re-write it. That makes it your personal view of the setting, which is fine, but there's nothing to debate there. It's how you view it, but not how I view it. Neither of us are wrong, but there's nothing to debate on the topic.

Kind of renders the corrective stabs in threads more unnecessary and snide than helpful, if that's your genuine view.

Still, I suppose it takes all sorts to put together a universe as large and comprehensive as 40k. That will have to include the fanbase. The fluff writers aren't immortal and their legacy is only as permanent as those who fill their seats will let it be.

you may not like the "emperor is the father of the GKs" but it's pretty clearly spelled out in multiple sources. Honestly at this point given how little we know of how geneseed was made from the primarchs, we honestly don't know how possiable or not that is.

True enough!

Given the time it would have taken, I suppose we could consider that the Emperor founded a small chapter's worth of geneseed and had it in cold storage long before the Heresy began. It smacks of stuffing the pillow to say so.

 Shidank wrote:
That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Well, I think that Sanguinius is the progenitor of the Salamanders, and a secret Tyranid. If you disagree, you're being an "obstinate GW bible-thumper".

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Shidank wrote:
That wasn't the end all to me, that was the reported "koolaid" fluff that's simply always been around with absolutely nothing to back it up.

You can discredit the absolutely reasonable suspicion that it's bunk, but it does nothing to make the argument for the Emperor being the official progenitor for the GK any more credible.

Well, I think that Sanguinius is the progenitor of the Salamanders, and a secret Tyranid. If you disagree, you're being an "obstinate GW bible-thumper".

Actually, friend, you seem to be more of a snide and thread-wasting troll! Tough mistake to make so early in the week, but you'll bounce back. I believe in you, lil guy!

I quoted your own words, so are you calling yourself a troll, or are you just in the habit of discrediting absolutely everything different without any kind of reasonable discussion?

Seems like the latter, seeing how you called Psiensis "snide" as well, and referred to disagreeing with you as "just drinking the koolaid" and stated that your belief is "absolutely reasonable" while the Codex statement "does nothing to make it more credible".

In short, you're saying "agree with me or you're just being an obstinate GW Bible-thumper and a troll".

Oh, I'm sorry but I won't be feeding the troll today. Please find somewhere else to try and flame things up.

Ignoring the last couple of irrelevant posts by Frozen, what would the timeline be for the Emperor to have created genestock before the Heresy? Was the original purpose even for the Grey Knights? Were the webway project to be successful, he wouldn't have needed a unit LIKE the Grey Knights, so what would he have made them for?

I'm confused here, because Frozen Ocean has a point. I mean the codex literally States that the Emperor is the progenitor for the GK, if you're just gonna ignore that 'because following it is being an obstinate GW bible-thumper', then Sanguinius could be a secret Tyranid, if we're just ignoring what's written.

Fair enough if you don't like a bit of fluff, but if it's written in a codex, it's correct, and anything you say otherwise is headcanon. Nothing wrong with headcanon, but that's exactly what it is.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I'm confused here, because Frozen Ocean has a point. I mean the codex literally States that the Emperor is the progenitor for the GK, if you're just gonna ignore that 'because following it is being an obstinate GW bible-thumper', then Sanguinius could be a secret Tyranid, if we're just ignoring what's written.

Fair enough if you don't like a bit of fluff, but if it's written in a codex, it's correct, and anything you say otherwise is headcanon. Nothing wrong with headcanon, but that's exactly what it is.

I think going back through every post and requoting the progression of the discussion would be both moot(since anyone is welcome to go back and read for themselves) and derail the thread even more than Frozen or Psi.

Now! Let's look at this like the functional alcoholic adults that we are, eh?

The Emperor can't have made the Grey Knights after the heresy: Reasonable to assume
The Emperor would have had to create this magically convenient stock of geneseed before or during the heresy(can't be much during since he spent most of that battling under the Golden Throne): Extremely reasonable to assume
The Emperor created this geneseed for a purpose other than Grey Knights: Probable in that he would likely have started this project with the webway still under construction and wouldn't have considered such a chapter necessary.
The Emperor likely created them for one of two reasons; Security within the webway/backup plan if the webway failed: While this is feasible, I wouldn't say the Emperor proved to be very great at backup plans.

This plot armor some people are having trouble burrowing through is the blanket statement "made from the Emperor" when, loosely, that same quote can be applied to any marine descendant from a Primarch. The statement is not specific, it is(honestly I'm not being unreasonable here) extremely ambiguous.


To get this thread back on track, let's move forward from here unless someone has something altogether different they would like to contribute. I think the derail can be considered done now unless someone feels the need to continue. In that event, I invite you to PM me rather than spam the thread.